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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


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So I thought about a bunch of ideas along the lines of having Grandmother convert one token type to another, but frankly all of those seem painful to implement, and would just cause additional confusion in a system that already has extremely unclear progression. Also there's no hope of getting DE buy-in because I imagine there is some studio incentive to having people do every activity (metrics or something?). I'd suggest something like this:

  1. Conservation as expected by Son is not possible on Deimos without a major redesign. Everything looks roughly the same, there are too many varieties of creature, tracking doesn't work well, and you can't really avoid hostiles because they pop out of the ground. So instead of having Son ask for specific tags, completely throw out the debt-bond model for conservation. Just divide the animals into 3 tiers and have him give you X tokens for Y captures of each tier. That way we can go around and capture random creatures we encounter and actually get something useful for it. I spent an hour roaming the Cambion Drift alternating between fishing, mining and conservation. I ended up with a ton of Daughter and Otak tokens, and absolutely nothing from Son. Ideally you should be able to get all the Son tokens you need via this casual approach. 
  2. In the same vein, adjust the rank up requirements so that instead of asking for some specific tags, we just give them N tags of any type. Or just remove them from rank up requirements entirely, because after (1) they'll actually be useful for getting Son tokens. It doesn't make sense to have Son tokens as well as the things you use to get Son tokens in the same list. 
  3. Mining and fishing are far more doable, but I'd still suggest using the same sort of tier system rather than the Ticker model.
  4. Father is probably the only one who can reasonably use the debt-bond model, because resources will passively turn up if you just play. Grandmother has a good lore reason to do it -- she's trying to unite her family, so it makes sense that she wants combinations of tokens. There's a minmaxing reason for it if you want to maximize bang for your buck. But it's best to remove Grandmother Tokens as requirements for purchasing anything. Maybe do something like 3-5 Grandmother tokens for the highest level rank up. 

I'm not in a huge hurry to get Helminth, so the current unworkable state doesn't bother me as much. But there's now enough precedent from PoE for people to expect that all the Deimos grinds will be heavily scaled back. A fair few players will sit back and wait for that to happen, which will reduce engagement rather than increase it.

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For Conservation:

Remove SONs Tag for Token trades. The token for standing ratio is god awfull. And make so that when we capture a animal, he rewards us with both a tag AND a SON token.

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1 hour ago, AltheusVI said:

Just had an idea, fill the bounty drop tables with the different kinds of tokens, make them uncommon rewards. That would give a way past having to grind out mining, fishing and hunting for those that don't like them.

That would also allow people to hammer through all the content in a couple of hours intense play if they really wanted to, and then spend the next 6 months complaining about a content drought. Looks like every solution brings its own problem.

Don't mistake grind for content; you can make grind entertaining, but the entertainment is what gives that grind its value.

DE has failed to make an entertaining grind. I'd rather have a content drought than this garbage. At least a drought allows me to take a sabbatical from Warframe with hope that the next update will be worth my time. This garbage drives me to sabbatical with a vengeful spite.

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Token system is a good idea but unnecessarily complicated. As it stands the only true benefit is hoarding standing which is nice but it can offer so much more if you're willing to make dramatic changes to make the experience more pleasant.

- I actually did fishing in PoE and Fortuna to gain standing, so I'm not averse to doing alternative game play to progress. However this is where my first big gripe comes in. So it's clear from the current implementation that you'd like us to partake in all activities in Deimos to progress through the ranks. Can I ask why then the Tokens you acquire from doing said alternative activities (Mining, Fishing, Conservation) offer such piss poor standing? You want us to engage in these activities but make it an absolute chore to do. Make no mistake that what this is. A chore. Because the standing is so low, I still have to do Bounties from Mother to get my standing.

Acquiring the tokens themselves is nonsense too, which requires way to much volume of resources relative to the tokens you get. I'm not sure what to say here really, a Large Murkray in PoE was 1k standing, Fortuna rare fish spawned in good volume once you found a hotspot. Here I'm farming many fish just to get the total of 100 Standing. Likewise for Mining.

- This is a carryover from PoE and Fortuna, but I have never understood the point of putting in resource requirements to rank up the next rank except now you've gone overboard with tokens and blueprints and weapon parts. Why? Standing alone should be sufficient. If this means the amount of standing we'd need to acquire to rank up be slightly increased, I'd be happy with that.

Making Tokens acquired from other activities necessary is completely unnecessary, not everyone likes mining, fishing or conservation. The beauty in this should be people could choose what activity they wanna do and rank up the same as everyone else that way, not this 'mess', here's what should be done.

For progression, keep all activities separate,  do not force any player do engage in anything they rather not do. If they wanna max rank via bounties, that should be possible. Improve the standing gain on all the tokens from fishing, mining, etc. Instead of us buying the Tokens with the resources we farm for. How about we just gain token as we do the activities instead. Daughter Tokens as we keep fishing, Otak Tokens as we keep mining etc. There just needs to be more enjoyment doing these things instead of it being a hassle.

This system should be should be a one-way ticket to simplifying progression and making it more enjoyable, but this is not it chief. Not even close.

Other things:

- Mining would be near impossible if the gems didn't pop up on my map. Can we make the veins bigger and have a much more visible glow so they're identifiable from a distance? Or just use the veins from PoE/Fortuna.

- What's with the Scintillant drops? I can't get one for the life of me.

- There is no reason to add 2 additional excavators to draw out a bounty any longer than it should. Reduce it down to 3 or just make all 5 spawn at once.

- I can never complete the bonus objective with the Corpus fella who uploads data, there's no real indication in regards to how we should approach it.

- Grineer bonus just encourages us to bring frames that destroy Infested as soon as they spawn. I suggest instead of that we just link up with the Grineer squad to hunt down some Infested miniboss they have marked.

- Isolation vaults initially seem cool, but the repetitiveness is very noticeable with the 'guard this object/area/npc for a certain amount of time!' missions.

- On that note, do something about public lobbies in Isolation Vault, when ppl join a bounty you just started the 'abandon objective' phase starts right away and sometimes the mission gets cancelled.

- Could you make Otak/Loid move a little bit faster, pretty please?

- Why can't you use the teleport infested mass that brings you back to the surface after you open the vault? Would save a lot of time.

 

Deimos much like PoE and Fortuna will be places full of potential, will that potential be fulfilled this time? We'll see.

Edited by (PS4)NattoKilla
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hace 8 horas, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

We are reducing the number of Son Tokens in a near Hotfix. Thanks all! 

 

is it as near as  inaros prime trailer or as near as trials 2.0? I hope it's not as close as melee 3.0 do ... that would mean inminent ...

Why did you guys deemed it necesary to force people in side activityes is beyond me...

Edited by kaotis
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15 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Why did you guys deemed it necesary to force people in side activityes is beyond me...

Because they spent their energy on content that no one likes except a few Ivara lovers.

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hace 14 minutos, selig_fay dijo:

Because they spent their energy on content that no one likes except a few Ivara lovers.

Making content is not easy, no one said it was (with the expetion of the hard mode toggle that took liek 3-4 years to put in ... ) the thing is... if the player base doesn't seem to particularly like something (liek you yourself said it) ... then put in the minimum effort ... seeing 3 new kubrows and kawats (6 in total) new pets (that tbh i don't realy undestand how to "save them" coz i stoped a few figths betwen infested and diferent breeds but onyl have access to a unique dogo...) they dedicated too much time into somthing that as you said only a few players like.

I critizie them from the point of view of resources poured into somthign that not many like* i for one some times don't minde to derp around and go hunting but not in a religious "i wish this was mandatory" sort of way. 

Side note... why the fck can't we have normal fish like in PoE(normal is relative) ... loved fishing there...

Edited by kaotis
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I thought it was pretty silly to make us buy a blueprint with standing to consume for a rank up when we already reached a standing cap. It felt like a waste of standing that did nothing but put me behind a day in my syndicates rank when the rank up limit could have already indicated how much standing it was going to take to rank up. (At least with the mutagen you're crafting something after spending standing and still have a use for the purchase and it's a higher tiered rank)

 

Hunting for specific tags to rank up syndicate is tedious (And I haven't even started hunting for the one I need yet because I already feel burnt out from hunting in fortuna and getting companions that wouldn't originally craft, crashed lobbies and wont gild in deimos) and should be replaced with tokens or more accessible resources. Ranking up the second syndicate is far easier than the first due to having to run the same bounty a bunch and be fine (I'm okay with this) but the main syndicate feels like a drain already and I'm only at rank 2. I can get enough standing easy enough. But farming for specific tags to rank up the syndicate is going to put off a lot of people. 

 

Scintillant still seems too hard to come across for how much is needed (which I assume more things to come will need to be crafted), I do not see them in vaults and I get rare bounty rewards more often than common scintillant rewards, only having received one as a common and one as a rare so far. If they were obtainable in endless bounties I would have more motivation to do those (Amber stars>credits was a good idea, the credit caches put me off it almost entirely, I don't even necessarily need amber stars but it feels much less wasteful of my time). I think having it as a cost for father tokens is a bit harsh. I have had many father tokens and never felt a need to even consider the ones with scintillant before finding out how rare they were. They should give closer to 10 tokens for a single scintillant considering I've gotten several from resources I have potentially over 1,000 of by now. 

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19 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Because they spent their energy on content that no one likes except a few Ivara lovers.

Even if, that's not the way. Getting players to actually use the mechanic should be done by improving said mechanic, not forcing them to do it in order to progress through something important. The way DE went about it is incredibly lazy

I get what they were going for with the tokens. You need to help the entire family to actually get ahead, but there is a better way. Especially considering the exchange rate of the tags to tokens with Son! The rate is downright atrocious.

Oh, and is it supposed to be funny that the most hated and ignored open map related mechanic is handled by the NPC that is constantly *@##$ing and moaning about being ignored? Because I'm not laughing.

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10 minutes ago, kaotis said:

I critizie them from the point of view of resources poured into somthign that not many like* i for one some times don't minde to derp around and go hunting but not in a religious "i wish this was mandatory" sort of way.

And then repeated the sinking of time in to it in Deimos instead of focussing on other things.

Sometimes you just have to acknowledge that something didn't work and walk away from it, not double down on it and make it compulsary so that their investment of development time gets used. That's a sunk cost fallacy right there.

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On top of all of the complaints about the token system, and conservation and mining being boring, there are also so many problems with them. I've been grinding away for a few hours, and I've come across so many mining spots that are on moving terrain, so if I'm looking at the wrong time, it's conoketot invisible. And then there's been some that are inside some terrain objects that you can break. So there is no access to them. 

 

And for conservation, quite a few of the trails I've followed, just clip into more terrain, making it impossible to follow. What makes it harder, is there are Avichaea spawn points inside the Cerebrum magma structure. Those things spawn outside. I had to climb on top of the thing to catch it. And then I found another clipped inside the ground. And there seems to always be Avichaea droppings behind Cerebrum magma. Consistently. 

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You need to do something with Scintillant drops ASAP. I know we don't need that much to craft everything, but still it doesn't make days of farming for just 5 of them for Xaku more comfortable......................................................................................... This is just insanse.

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On 2020-08-26 at 12:03 AM, Voltage said:

This forced requirement to do conservation and mining is straight up bad. Let me do bounties and play Warframe to progress syndicates, not fishing, conservation, mining, or spending Platinum (to buy fish parts/gems/ores) to get these dumb tokens.

Remove Tokens

Remove Grandmother

Make this like PoE/Fortuna with multiple avenues for progression and just use standing. Stuffing non-combat activities down players' throats isn't fun.

You have two combat alternatives for mining and fishing in the area. Isolated Vaults and the Requiem Pillars. Both drop mining and fishing resources

Also, not every activity has to be tailored to your taste. I enjoy fishing/mining/conservation, and the general diversity of available tasks. Warframe would be a much poorer game if it was only combat

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8 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Should I do a stream where I reproduce this 10 times with success?

I UNDERSTAND where the complaints are coming from, but people are just NOT paying attention to what is actually required to get the Helminth.

Everybody is acting like it's 100h grind.

IT TAKES 10 MINUTES TO DO THE CONSERVATION you need to do. (5 brids, 1 predasite)

Everything else you can do without the tranq rifle in your hand.

Maybe you're just not typical, chief.  That's good for you but the vast majority of the playerbase is actually subject to randomness in the game where you play and things don't spawn much, they aren't in the right place at the right time, etc, etc.  For an average person just playing when they can, not camping the expiring deals, not sitting in the tileset for extended periods waiting for spawn and respawn and not fortunate enough to have seen spawns as Soo as they point their tranquilizing rifle, this is something that it will likely takes 20-40 hours.  The time isn't what bothers people, it's the fact they have to play one and only one specific min game to get what they need and that mini game is not tied into the concept of space ninja shooter and that work gets you what you want...but it's not tied in to the game naturally, either.

You can keep telling us how easy it is for you, personally, but it's doesnt invalidate  other people's feedback. People are simply giving feedback on why this isn't fun and that's the entire point.  It's not the grind in a grind game..it's the nature of it in a game that is supposed to be fun.  

You onlymhelpmthe feedback forum if you are receptive to understanding and learning the issues and offering solutions.

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Heart of Deimos I enjoy thoroughly, everything in this update so I'll keep this simple for improvement. 

Only changes I feel are needed is allow options for mother tokens (as they are the easiest to obtain) to be exchanged for 1 of all the others from them except grandmother as she already has mother exchanges 😃

Second is remove specific character items to rank up but instead require just their tokens instead so it's obtainable without rng. 

Everything else feels fine, I like all that's there and I understand not everyone does but this seems like a good fair middle ground. I also appreciate doing these areas over time instead of smashing it out so I can have everything yesterday and then complain of nothing to do till the next update.. A great job of the update considering its been done mostly in quarantine =D

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I might be wrong here, but there seems to be no benefit to getting 'perfect capture' for conservation. Because captures are tied to son tokens, which work via tags, you get the same reward whether you get perfect or bad capture. One tag of the relevant creature, two if you're using a booster.

Please can we introduce a system where if you get good or perfect you have a percentage chance to get 2 tags OR some other resources please. 🙂

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1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

Scintillant still seems too hard to come across for how much is needed (which I assume more things to come will need to be crafted), I do not see them in vaults and I get rare bounty rewards more often than common scintillant rewards, only having received one as a common and one as a rare so far. If they were obtainable in endless bounties I would have more motivation to do those (Amber stars>credits was a good idea, the credit caches put me off it almost entirely, I don't even necessarily need amber stars but it feels much less wasteful of my time). I think having it as a cost for father tokens is a bit harsh. I have had many father tokens and never felt a need to even consider the ones with scintillant before finding out how rare they were. They should give closer to 10 tokens for a single scintillant considering I've gotten several from resources I have potentially over 1,000 of by now. 

I feel this, father's requests with scintalant in, I'm just not filling out at the moment. If it's as rare as it seems to be, I'm holding onto it.

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Conservation for the Avichaea is not spawning the bird when the call point is located in or around the Cerebrum Magma infested growth and cave location, especially when call point is in the heart cave point. May want to move avian creatures away from this feature as they could be either not spawning or being lost in the huge infested growth.

Also the whole token system and economy for Son tokens is rediculous, and I would wager when it comes to Scintilla, DE you need to up the RNG on that noise because at present, it is insane. 3 for Tac Spud in 10 hours, Almost 18 hours total play for me over 2 days and Nada.

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)KamikaZSquirrel said:

Heart of Deimos I enjoy thoroughly, everything in this update so I'll keep this simple for improvement. 

Only changes I feel are needed is allow options for mother tokens (as they are the easiest to obtain) to be exchanged for 1 of all the others from them except grandmother as she already has mother exchanges 😃

 

You'd have to weight that pretty heavily, mother tokens are an order of magnitude easier than the rest. Like at least a 50/1 ratio (probs 100/1 for son tokens) in order to make grinding bounties not massively better than all the other token farms. 

It would be a good step towards appeasing the people who are annoyed at mandatory mining, fishing and conservation though because I've seen a few complaints on that front.

Edited by LordRusty
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vor 11 Stunden schrieb moondog548:

Looks like you replied to the wrong thread, because what you just said has nothing to do with complaints about gating core progression behind an unrelated mini-game.

Obviously this is not just a little Mini-Game (as it has arguably started) but instead part of the main game. I do not disagree with DE's idea of having to do everything instead of just focusing on one thing (like fishing or bounties), getting your standing there and ignoring everything else.

Hunting and mining does not feel polished enough to have it as a necessity in my opinion but the overall concept is good and forces you into a more variable gameplay with less repetition.

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Son Tokens: 

Every conservation animal captured should give one Son Token as an additional reward, simple as that. 

That would require rebalancing all other assumptions about the value of the token, but so be it. 

Grandmother or Loid should sell Scintillant for rep. 

 

Side note: 

Game should go full circle to allow veteran players to exchange one syndicate rep for another's. 

Even if it is less than a 1:1 trade. could be 5:1 and I would be happy. 

Make Darvo being the black/gray market  dude trade any kind of syndicate rep for another's - medallions, debt-bonds, tokens, all that. 

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