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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


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Conservation feedback (Adding to the pile);

I generally don't mind conservation. In Fortuna I found it a very nice and chill way to gain rep and pass time.

But hunting Avichaea's is miserable. The limited spawn points gives you few to choose from. And getting sight of them when the call point is below anything huge and orange (I'm sure people know the structure I mean) is awkward at best, and if you miss them on approach, well hope that they ended up above the colossal orange tumor... or you're never finding them.

Call points need adjusting for them, and the way they approach needs adjusting. The issue is you're looking for a *tiny* target that is at high elevation through a scope that is a really similar contrasting colour to the environment. The audio return call they give doesn't seem to correlate to their approach direction either, when compared to hunting land based animals.

A solution to this, that may be easier than redesigning how they behave and approach the player, might be to add something to the tranq rifle when coped it, like give some sort of visual directional queue on screen as where you should be looking when scoped in (Oh, it's up and left, kinda thing?)

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3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

To your first point - did you notice that the upload count is exactly the same as the amount of enemies killed during that phase?  I did.  The locked timer means that the issue here is spawning sufficient enemies to kill in the window....which is nearly impossible on the 20+ requirements.  If maybe this was scaled to the count, i.e. 15 is a minute and 25 is 90 seconds, it would be entirely more plausible.

 

To your second point...did you notice they spawn in the same place every single time?  It's 3-6 interacted with at maximum (3*5=15, 6*5=30).  During the first one just map out a fast course of 5, and your team will win even if everyone else is terrible.  The real problem here is that you can input more than one power cell at once, and then the system breaks down because there are no additional spawns.

 

To the third point...I agree.  It's almost like DE gave them flamethrowers as a gigantic middle finger to so many people using the ignis wraith on missions to power torch trash mobs.  I'd put something funny here, but I believe this is a jab at us as a whole.  I think it's petty, but not a surprise.  It's also not funny.

On Corpusboi that's good to know. However it's definitely inconsistent then. In a squad with a Mesa, we had a flurry of enemies coming at us, and Peacemaker was literally melting dozens of enemies. We got to 19 before he decided he was done. And it's no understatement to say that at least 30-40 enemies were killed by the Mesa alone.

Good advice on the Purifier mission.

Yeah, the frustrating thing is, when running bounties, I really like the carrot on a stick of the extra reward for hitting all the bonus objectives. I'm fine when failing one because I screwed up. But stuff like this one where you essentially have no chance is just awful.

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52 minutes ago, Kryostasys said:

On Corpusboi that's good to know. However it's definitely inconsistent then. In a squad with a Mesa, we had a flurry of enemies coming at us, and Peacemaker was literally melting dozens of enemies. We got to 19 before he decided he was done. And it's no understatement to say that at least 30-40 enemies were killed by the Mesa alone.

Good advice on the Purifier mission.

Yeah, the frustrating thing is, when running bounties, I really like the carrot on a stick of the extra reward for hitting all the bonus objectives. I'm fine when failing one because I screwed up. But stuff like this one where you essentially have no chance is just awful.

Regarding the Mesa...I think that the spawn pods do not count as kills.  It's a similar problem with the Grineer kills squad, where you can obliterate the spawn pods and not technically get the kill.  I don't have any proof to that, but know it's an issue elsewhere.

 

I think DE made a conscious decision to have a crap mission on all of the open worlds.  On PoE there are two (area control due to spawns and don't kill anything because the grineer tend to murder wildlife if your pet doesn't).  In Fortuna I'm aware of one capture the spawned data nodes.  That's not to say that some others don't still bug out.  My two most common are having an area spawn on your position and say don't be detected, and the tendency for the spawns on extractor missions to be extremely....inconsistent.  

Why?  Well, if there's a trash objective they don't have to reward a potential second rare item.  No rare item means more grind, meaning more engagement.  It's self defeating because it'll burn players out once they realize, but your brain sees 4/5 and thinks that the failure was because of you instead of bad design.  The "extra" standing earned is also perceived as valuable, but it's actually calculated to be an average earn to determine what people actually have to finish.  

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15 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

More interestingly, the gyro systems are only available once you can visit Little Duck.  This means to get Xaku you need to max out Solaris, complete the Profit-Taker sequence (probably multiple times given the drop chances), and then grind your face off to get scintillant. 

Reading this made me woke to the idea that players will need to play for potentially weeks to get XAKU "the free to play way." The relates to economy so I am keeping my reply in this thread. I'll extrapolate below...

1. The gyromag systems requires "Old Mate" with Solaris to access Vox Solaris. So basically if you haven't earned said title on another content island you can't acquire the new frame Xaku. This is a bad design choice. I get that DE wants to "tie" all these content islands together but asking the player to max title with one island before playing the next is a pretty big ask. This is essentially asking a player to play a different (older) content island for weeks (depending on your MR rep cap).

2. The scintillant requirement for Xaku should be just 1 or 2. I get that DE doesn't want us to get access Xaku immediately at launch but 5 is a big ask for a drop that even players with tons of play time are having trouble getting.

3. The WF player base/community as a whole isn't at max title for each content island. By asking for gyromags and other items that require a huge time investment you assume the whole community has completed you last update/island entirely and is ready for the next. That is not always the case. Ask the community to look at our friends list or clan mates. We know who came back for each new update and who will soon leave based on egregious requirements. Your community doesn't have endless hours to play Warframe like it's a job to get scintillant or gyromag systems. This model of crafting requirements and title status had been applied to many of the new frames you have added to the game. A few that come to mind are Baruuk, Hildryn, Grendel and even Garuda. All are recently added frames. I am not complaining about crafting costs I am simply pointing out this is a trend that is GROWING with each new frame you add to the game and honestly some of us are growing tired of it. Finally, I would also like to point out that there are frames that require next to nothing to craft... like NOVA the other community driven frame.

4. Spending platinum to bypass crafting costs to get a new frame is always a choice the player can make. There is no right or wrong answer here. Every player will value monetary exchange differently and I will leave it at that.

 

I would like to thank everyone at DE for all the hard work you put into this game especially during a work from home situation. You are so ambitious but oftentimes fly to close to the sun. I feel like the community is Daedalus and you all are Icarus after each update. We warn you of the dangers but yet you fly to high. I might be going back to my labyrinth to wait for you to figure out your daidala costs/requirements for new frames.

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I hate most of the Family syndicate changes.Perhaps I am biased, because I feel like this update is built to waste my time (and by "waste" I mean literally promise something and then give like 1/3 of what was promised).

  • Token exchange is complex system. Cut out the tokens and ask for materials directly instead of tokens
  • Token value is all over the place. Please playtest all the activities that give token-materials and evaluate them based on time it takes to get each of them. Any token is worth more than mother token because they are timegated. Fishing and animal capture tokens should be worth even more.
  • Time gated tokens make absolutely no sense. Literally the only scenario where tokens make sense is if your entire plan was to timegate them to increase playtime (and by "playtime" i mean login time). I already played the game, mined, fished, captured animals. Why are you making me wait?

Only highlight of this Family syndicate is hoardable standing, which can be achieved by just having mother tokens and standing. If you want grandmother tokens, just have her sell them directly for materials, instead of other tokens.

What I liked about the 2 syndicates is the fact they are connected somewhat.

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Revisiting my view on the economy after figuring out just how Deimos works over the past few days. And given how plentiful ALL the resources (including conservation tags) are via the Requiem Pillars, Isolation Vaults, and naturally spawning wildlife, the Tokens are no different from gaining standing in Fortuna or Cetus. 30 minutes of exploring the Drift or 3 vault runs and I can completely buy out Father and Otak (and maybe half of Daughter's).

My only concern now is with Grandmother's Oddities. 20 tokens for a single Seriglass Shard is daunting, even if it is the equivalent of 20-30,000 Entrati standing. The time it takes to gather the specific tokens needed makes me feel like I must choose between ranking up with the family or getting the part needed to build the new weapons.

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)NostrathomasJ said:

You are so ambitious

Giving far too much credit here. There are probably 5-10 'inspired' elements of Deimos from other IP's, homages are fun when done playfully not blatant ripoffs for memes sake. An example of ambition from a group of geeks that immediately comes to mind, is the old Bethesda crew that worked on Morrowind and earlier titles. But like current Elder Scrolls titles, Warframe has taken a minimized approach, with minimal effort invested. Massive hype, sweaty palms, anxiety, deadlines, booze and minimal focus on replay value or the concept of fun. 

If there was one title DE could have taken some influence from concerning Deimos, it's Subnautica. From small to gargantuan, the creatures fill a really basic landscape/seascape, imposing a sense of dread that I haven't felt since first playing left for dead. But currently the overworld in HoD is empty, despite appearances that lead me to believe anything I touched could poison or attack my Warframe. Love the centipede designs, they offer a decent challenge in Steel Path but I'd like to have seen some real ambition...some overworld boss of epic size-- WITHOUT iFRAMES for once, please. Maybe a chance for a squad of 4-8 people working together to take down some massive boss, with group roles involving the Mechs, Archwing and support Warframes.

That's just giving too much credit but thankfully there are other IP's and some on the way which will provide fun and challenge, story and customization--but most importantly, value my time/money.

 

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On 2020-08-21 at 8:23 PM, SilverBones said:

With the Heart of Deimos update, comes two new factions; the Entrati and the Necraloid Syndicates! We would love to hear your feedback on these new Syndicates, covering everything from their characters, their offerings, the economy of items, standing, as well as anything else surrounding their tasks and rewards.

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of the Entrati and Necraloid Syndicates, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the new content, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use the dedicated Heart of Deimos Bug-Hunting thread!

Thank you!

 

Just wondered why in the endless bounty mission on diemos there is an ayatan amber star in common,uncommon and rare rewards table. Surely that's a mistake? Common yes but the same again for the other 2 higher levels, that sounds wrong.

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My only bother with the Syndicate economy so far are Necraloid rank up sacrifices, if you are under MR 11 you can't get a Zymos blueprint essentially softlocking you from further progress, the same goes for the Sepulcrum blueprint and Rank 1 rank up sacrifice, if you are under MR14 you are softlocked from getting a Necramech blueprint while all the other Necramech parts blueprints are availible for you ( I have found myself in this situation unfortunately ), becuase Father doesn't allow you to purchase the blueprints of those weapons without first having the coresponding MR.

Edited by NPLT
clarification
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Asides from the bugs, there's a suggestion I'd like to make in regards to Necramechs. Or more specifically, their mods and the atrociously low drop rate. Seriously, it's easier to get the parts than it is to get mods to actually make the Necramech viable in level 40+ missions without (almost) instantly dying.

 

  • Add the Necramech mods to Necraloid's standing.

 

Can be at rank 2 or 3, stagger it based on rarity (rank 1 - common, rank 2 - uncommon, rank 3 - rare) or whatnot but the sheer difficulty in obtaining even common Necramech mods leave a lot to be desired, and Necraloid basically becomes pointless once you have everything, and it isn't a lot to begin with.

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4 hours ago, Kryostasys said:

Conservation feedback (Adding to the pile);

I generally don't mind conservation. In Fortuna I found it a very nice and chill way to gain rep and pass time.

But hunting Avichaea's is miserable. The limited spawn points gives you few to choose from. And getting sight of them when the call point is below anything huge and orange (I'm sure people know the structure I mean) is awkward at best, and if you miss them on approach, well hope that they ended up above the colossal orange tumor... or you're never finding them.

Call points need adjusting for them, and the way they approach needs adjusting. The issue is you're looking for a *tiny* target that is at high elevation through a scope that is a really similar contrasting colour to the environment. The audio return call they give doesn't seem to correlate to their approach direction either, when compared to hunting land based animals.

A solution to this, that may be easier than redesigning how they behave and approach the player, might be to add something to the tranq rifle when coped it, like give some sort of visual directional queue on screen as where you should be looking when scoped in (Oh, it's up and left, kinda thing?)

YES - I was so confused by hunting at first because I assumed, naturally, that the large arrows on either side of the crosshairs must flicker or otherwise indicate "warmer... colder" hints as to prey direction. Because it's a BIIIG world, and you're looking through a narrow scope, and the terrain may rise and fall dramatically so you must even look up and down. I actually enjoyed getting the 5 avichea (thanks to a forum poster's map of where they spawn - not call points), but even this way there was so much area to cover through one's scope, side-to-side AND up-and-down. 

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Mining with the Sunpoint plasma drill makes easy to get very rare gems (according to the wiki which i didn't not knew about it) but I wanna to get the Necrathene and i got 17 Necrathene, 18 Xenorhast and 19 Embolos, btw Xenorhast and Embolos you can get 1 max per mining node, but Necrathene you can get 6 max per mining node i believe (no resource boost) the thing is switching to a Cetus mining drill is bad because it doesn't have upgrades and you can only have one mining drill on your gear whell and it can be exploited like use a mining drill that can only drill the ores that you are looking for instead of using the one that has upgrades and all the good stuff like range and a good radar i think this is because the sunpoint plasma drill  released before the economic changes that made arcanes cost rep instead of resources and now that we need not so rare ores we get the rarest ores because that drill never got updated to the economic changes

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16 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Is there any justifiable reason why seriglass shards have to cost 20 grandmother tokens?

...TWENTY!?!?!

DE WHAT THE ACTUAL [redacted] ARE YOU SMOKING?!

Seriously, this economy is a hot mess...at that point it isn't prolonging the farm, it is wasting people's time for nothing.

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I want to say that I've complained a fair bit on this thread and other threads about the conservation and yelled at DE quite a bit.  It was much deserved in my opinion.

Today I was able to buy the parts I needed for plat.  This means I can advance by farming prime parts doing missions I like, selling them for plat and then converting that to the mission requirements.  I can now just focus on the parts of the open world I enjoy the most, such as the excavation missions.  Tonight, for the first time since the update, I could actually enjoy Warframe and not be stressed out about how far behind I am in open world content.  I don't even have an archwing segment, so if you're unfortunate enough to group with me you wlll have to wait until i BULLET JUMP and SLIDE to the objective like a savage.

This doesn't let you, DE, off the hook for the last few days of aggravation, but the 50% plat coupon upon logging in does.  Instead of going back to Kenshi or some other game, I took advantage of it and picked up 1000 plat on the market place to rejuvenate my Warframe/drinking habits.  Our beef is resolved.  I'm sad we didn't actually get to fist fight about it like we would have in the 1980's lunchroom, but it's an acceptable resolution and only slightly less desirable than everybody involved with this cluster doing 200 pushups on their knuckles on cold grainy cement  out of sheer fear of being pummeled again.

Next time please consider that while players like myself do genuinely appreciate the attempts at ingenuity in adding new things to do to the game, we are not guaranteed to accept them.  Forcing us to do these things drives us away from new content.  It's a great idea to offer a Sam's Club Saturday sized sample of your new content to everybody, but please please PLEASE don't lock the crown jewels behind the Vegan Chicken Patties because you still have some starving violent old dinosaurs out there (who might be endangered now, think about that you conservationist paladins) who need MONSTER MEAT to survive.  Sometimes we eat the fake meat and like it, but FFS don't force it down our throat when we tell you it tastes like butt. 

All this so my Gara can shoot lightning bolts...

 

 

  

Edited by Clowee
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19 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...TWENTY!?!?!

DE WHAT THE ACTUAL [redacted] ARE YOU SMOKING?!

Seriously, this economy is a hot mess...at that point it isn't prolonging the farm, it is wasting people's time for nothing.

It is such a train wreak particularly the "Conservation" wall that I am already done bothering to try. I am not rank 5 on Fortuna because WHY WOULD YOU. And due to the Conservation requirement may never rank here. So literally I have done one 2 wave of bounty and the intro and hit the DE stopped me playing the update at all wall. Every thing is locked behind things that just are not remotely fun at all. 

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On 2020-08-26 at 8:14 PM, Voltage said:

I'm tired of beating around the bush for half a decade on mistakes they should have learned from with Plains of Eidolon in 2017. It's getting old. Why am I even bothering with this update on launch if I am quite literally wasting my time considering we are already getting patches to reduce the first few rank-up costs. What an untested and unstable mess.

Maybe you should take a break my guy. This expectons thats DE is going to ship a perfect update is NEVER going to happen. So if its a constant sore spot for you, slow down. 

The update is far better than empyrean in terms of bugs especially considering the timeline and they haven't gone on holiday.

The token system is new, personal think its a great addition. There was some issues that they are dedicated to ironing out.

Conservation blows. I understand DE's emphasis to encourage players to try it. I think now they understand they made the requirement far to high.  

 

BUT all in all self care bud, if a game isnt fun it isn't worth it 

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I'm not sure if this is intended or not, but i think that requiring some weapon blueprints (Zymos, Sepulcrum and Trumna) to rank up the Necraloid syndicate is kind of strange because the blueprints themselves have a higher mastery rank requirement to purchase than the MR you need to unlock the Helminth system, which apparently is for experienced players only.

What i mean is, why do you need higher MR to access the Necramechs than you do for the Helminth system? Are the Necramechs aimed at high MR endgame players only? Maybe this is intentional, but I thought this could just be an oversight so I'd mention it here.

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So after playing for several hours since the release, here's my major feedback. Odd that we're missing a general feedback megathread so apologies if this doesn't pigeonhole just to economy and syndicate... if one is made just move this reply over to it.

Scintillant. I have only ever seen them from bounty rewards and even then it's a unicorn. Even after running the vaults the groups found zero. Z E R O. The spawn chance was supposedly buffed. Buffed to what? 5% from 1%? Max loot detection and nothing. I look for how people farm them. They say keep the necramechs alive and look at the ceiling for several minutes. Is this a joke or is is this intended behavior? Because it's not funny either way. This makes RNG fish parts hilarious in comparison. Farming wisps is less tedious than this. Farming torioids is less tedious than this. Farming Railjack at release was less tedious than this. Farming Kuva weapons before you could see what you were getting was less tedious than this. Starting from the feet up with a cheese grater until your leg has been shredded off would be less tedious than this. Is this intended behavior for the grind to be so torturous? It would be fine if you even just moved a guaranteed Scintillant spawn into the T3's treasure room. You'd be at one every 45 minutes or so. It's not great and would mean the intended grind is 13 hours for a single resource for the bare minimum of what you need to build everything, but that's more than what we have now.

Token system. I'm actually okay with this, although prices need to be adjusted. Kind of nice not to have to farm specific bounties a limited number of times per day and the stockpiled tokens can just be turned in later. The RNG token buy system is semi-annoying but works for the most part. The costs for gilding a pet need to be drastically reduced - either keep it as 10 Son tokens or 5K standing, not both at those same levels.

The Conservation System. Now that mining has had at least some QoL, this needs it too. Flashing orange against a glowing orange world doesn't highlight critters. Give a better indicator like a directional marker or distance marker... something that would actually help pinpoint. The avicheas need to properly spawn and not immediately die from aimbotting Infested freaks from >150m away. Maybe on a world that constantly spawns hostile enemies that can see you over the next mountain, you shouldn't be forcing Conservation as a requirement. And I like Conservation normally.

The New Pets. The mutation system is kind of nice for customizing. I like it overall, especially with customizing what resistances they have... kind of wish that was separate from the function, though, so you could have a specific look without having to sacrifice function. However the changeover for Vulpaphyla is currently losing ranks since it's spawning a whole new entity. You can actually lose ranks and drop all the way back down to Rank 0. That's why it takes so stupidly long to rank foxes up - you almost have to manage to get a run up to 30 where they never go down. Good luck. Just have it reset its health to 1 and change model... skip the death script entirely. And make the little bugger invulnerable so it doesn't immediately die again. I get that it's supposed to be the new Djinn and when it actually does that, it's going to be amazing. The Predasite is kind of bland, just a new spin on the kubrow. I'd rather like to see the mods interchangeable between the versions like you can with MOAs. Outside of the abilities there's nothing to differentiate them and there's some opportunity for customization. Since these are Infested, why not allow them to use the Helminth mods as well? Heck, Djinn can use the same mods as a MOA and it's a flying Infested parakeet (or whatever).

Mining. QoL is nice but there's very little saturation. Unless you're looking just right you can't see the marker... and that's not good UX. Give it better definition. You're almost there but need to go a little further.

Xaku. There is currently only one viable build and that maximizes range and has 200+ strength to using Gaze (or Accuse if you're feeling frisky). #2 doesn't scale even when it's supposed to (unless you meant that the damage is literally added by enemy level... like a level 20 enemy adds +20 void damage... which isn't funny either, if that was intended). #1 adds pitiful damage. Even Shock Trooper scales better than that, and that's an augment mod for an existing ability. At least bump it up to +100% at Rank 3 to keep it in line with other damage-adding abilities of its type. That would at least make it worth something. And #4? You added energy drain to something that doesn't need it - it already had a built-in timer. With a 100 energy base cost it's practically useless even with maxed Energize. Make #2 scale with enemy levels and either remove the energy drain or drop the energy cost and remove the timer. Does Artemis bow have a timer? Does Titania's Razorwing have a timer? Does Baruuk's Serene Storm have a timer? All these have built-in energy (or other unique resource, in Baruuk's case) drains already so they don't need it. If you want build diversity, don't make all the abilities other than one terrible.

Player Necramechs. So you have to farm up standing with one syndicate, get seven different parts that aren't even guaranteed to drop, and then build a suit and gun set that does paper fan damage and falls to pieces if so much as a stiff breeze blows across it (if the quest-tutorial or randomly found ones are any indication). They fall apart with even LV 20-30 enemies. With this stunning display of performance, why would anyone want to build one? Frankly it seems like MR trash to get thrown away or put in the attic permanently. Their survivability is low enough that there's no time to use abilities more than once per life.

Enemy Necramechs. Who QA'd this? No seriously, did anyone even QA these encounters for more than one runthrough? Your script for disabling player abilities constantly breaks. Nine times out of ten, if we're fighting a necramech someone will permanently lose the ability to use Warframe abilities or transfer out. Or transfer in! You can get stuck in Operator mode and hope something kills you. Even Vacuum/Fetch can break from these encounters, how is that even possible? Only way to recover is to go down and revive and even that's not guaranteed. Frankly with the constant invulnerability periods, slow-down effects, damage reflection, and rapidly-spinning turretting the necramechs do constantly... the ability-disabling script is wholly unnecessary. Just bin the ability disabling script entirely and fix the invuln ability cooldown. 

Loid/Otak. Shut. Them. Up. Every time you run a vault mission up to T3 he spouts the Same. Repeating. Inane. Repeating. Annoying. Repeating. Irritating. Repeating. Lines. Repeating. Every. Repeating. Segment. We know already that the intrepid void explorers isolated themselves until they managed to cure their cranial-rectal inversion. Yes, you've told us about the necramechs before. We get it. You have one set of lines and by RNGesus you're sticking to it.

 

Conclusion: There's some small niggles that need addressing, a whole lot of big ones, and some really humongous elephant piles that are stanking up the front yard. Some of these design decisions are baffling or otherwise hostile to the playerbase. It's shocking that after this many years of cumulative development these are being pushed out the door.

I didn't even mean for it to be this long but the more I thought about the update, the more problems jumped out that really needed addressing before release.

Edited by R0AHN
Correctino, necramech parts are tradeable, not sure why it wouldn't show up in the menu previously but does now. So that's a plus at least.
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5 hours ago, Aldain said:

...TWENTY!?!?!

DE WHAT THE ACTUAL [redacted] ARE YOU SMOKING?!

Seriously, this economy is a hot mess...at that point it isn't prolonging the farm, it is wasting people's time for nothing.

tell me about it the last 2 weapons take a shard each >.< ive only got one weapon crafting that grind is excruciating.

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