Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread

[Frostyinferno]

7 hours ago, FreelanceZero said:

Asides from the bugs, there's a suggestion I'd like to make in regards to Necramechs. Or more specifically, their mods and the atrociously low drop rate. Seriously, it's easier to get the parts than it is to get mods to actually make the Necramech viable in level 40+ missions without (almost) instantly dying.

 

• Add the Necramech mods to Necraloid's standing.

 

Can be at rank 2 or 3, stagger it based on rarity (rank 1 - common, rank 2 - uncommon, rank 3 - rare) or whatnot but the sheer difficulty in obtaining even common Necramech mods leave a lot to be desired, and Necraloid basically becomes pointless once you have everything, and it isn't a lot to begin with.

Please PLEASE consider taking this feedback into account. I have my Mech cooking and after farming a bit more, I have almost a full set of copied damaged parts with many duplicates, and still a total of ZERO mech mods. This is insane. I want to be able to use my mech but the farm for the mods is way way worse than the farm for the mech itself. I feel like there will be many more people talking about this soon, when they finish their mech and realize just how hard it is to get mods.

[tipsy_princess]

modular pet gild price kinda off,

for all 6 pets needs 30k standing and 60 son tokens. that would be fine without fact we already got to invest standing into lures and baits to catch em, blueprints to craft parts and tonn of resrouces on top

[Aelerinya]

The Necraloid syndicate cannot be ranked up by players under the Mastery rank 11, as the Zymos blueprint cannot be purchased before rank 11, and is necessary as the first ranking up costs.

I understand that weapons are gated on Mastery rank, but gating the acquisition of the blueprint, and not just the construction of the weapon prevents the large pool of players under MR11 but having access to this syndicate from ranking up.

If this Mastery rank limit was intentional, could it be put in place more clearly ? Like preventing access to the area or talking to Loid, with a message saying that MR11 is required ? For now it seems like an oversight.

[White_Matter]

Scintillant is basically non existant. Did 6 vault runs today(consecutive) and had 0 drops.

Still can't build Xaku because of this. It is obnoxious.

[Klokwerkaos]

I can't get squat For Thaumica even with rarity booster.

Additionally double pick up booster does not work on Vome and Fass residue.  Not sure why... it's a resource I need to use For Fishing... seems broken and messed up and arbitration.

Also not positive but I don't think it's working For scintilint either.

[AnuKaneDai]

It's really annoying to have glassmaker enemy when you go fishing because even stealthy they stay on you and theyr AOE kill the fish.

[master_of_destiny]

6 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

tell me about it the last 2 weapons take a shard each >.< ive only got one weapon crafting that grind is excruciating.

The two weapons from Father take a shard each.  You also have the signature warfan from Xaku, which takes a shard.  Doing conservative math, it's about 10 tokens from other people to get one from Grandmother.  20*3*10 = 600 tokens from various sources or a long wait for timers to expire and you to get lucky.  

 

Now, let's call this as equal to mother tokens.  What is that worth in syndicate standing?  600*100 = 60,000.  It literally is the second to last rank worth of standing or two days of standing at MR 29.  Yeah, economic goofiness there.

I'm just hoping that any of these weapons is good.  If after all of that grind these things are another set of meh it's going to be hard to see them as anything but insulting.  

[VoreoTheDragon]

@[DE]Rebecca
Scintillant & the Necramech mods should just be thrown on the Necroloid offers. Maybe even the damaged parts.

Scillitant - 10-30k
Necramech Mods - 10-25k 
Damaged parts - 25-50k 

This way theres a guaranteed method at least of getting these that still encourages doing the vaults and gives a use to the matrices.

[taiiat]

why.......

do all of these Syndicates want me to give them Blueprints for things that we get from other Vendors in the Necrolisk Town.
it's not even mostly about having to buy them for points to turn in for points to use our points to Rank up to continue getting points - it's more lore/logic wise of that WHY DO THEY WANT ME TO GO GET A BLUEPRINT THEY HAVE TONS OF, WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO THE DEFEATING OF THE INFESTED

APPARENTLY THEY DON'T NEED OUR HELP AT ALL, THE SECRET TO DEFEATING THE INFESTED IS STUFF(Blueprints) THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE, GG WE'VE WON, WE CAN GO HOME

thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

also Hunting/Conservation seems to have questionable point rates per time compared to all of the other branches of Deimos.
Fishing maybe too, but not as sure on that branch.

lastly the Grandmother Tokens seems to have major pros/cons - can get more points out of them but it seems potentially unnecessarily complicated to have the trading of them in the first place. really not sure how i feel about their existence.

[Hastrer]

.

[deyuaru]

My only qualm with the current economy of Deimos is:
 

1. Scintillant Drop Rates are still bad even after hotfix. (Either increase the rates again, or reduce the crafting cost, or add it into the Necraloid Shop, just like Cetus Wisp for Quills)

2. The Grandmother Tokens needed for the Shard should be reduced from 20 to 10.

3. Increase the chances of getting Thaumica in the caches at the end of Isolation Vaults.

[ZyoNiX]

Xaku Chassis -> you absolutely need Rank5 In fortuna... so anybody that didnt do Fortuna no new frame for you.

Father Weapon blueprints -> you are MR gated... anyone at MR10 or lower no progression for you.

Scintillant (wisp 2.0)  -> after 70 hours of grinding with the guild collectively we don't even have enough for 1 Xaku and his warfan weapon

Chrysalis (the actual Hype)  big NOPE cuz you need to reach Rank3 Entrati which is timegated and infintely harder to get for newer players because MR requirements.

 

Side Rant on the new warfrans

Why do I get the feeling you traded your martial arts and fighting style advisors and turned to artists and designers without any notion on what aspects a weapon needs to be combat viable?

Did anyone actually try making the new weapon in cardboard or foam or something and actually try using them? Like seriously you gotta make sure the guys in the art department know what they are designing Its supposed to be a Weapon!

Something that looks nice is not necessarily combat viable.  If Kitana would see this we would all be beheaded 100%.  They close the wrong way and regardless of what bushido style you would use they look heavy and unbalanced so they would suck in terms of combat viability.  Id rather bring a pencil or a toiletbrush to battle then these cluncky good for looks but nothing else wannabe Gunsen. 

Please DE you have always done a fantastic job with the melee styles and weapons, the lack of diversity for the warfans compared to all other types isnt an excuse to release something that looks like a fan with pointy edges and closes in spiral and call it a warfan... seriously there are 1000s of viable warfan designs all with specifc combat features that work in combination with several real martial art techniques.  This one simple doesnt.  Yes it looks cool but its not a WARfan its a WALLfan. (sorry for this, this triggers me as much as upside down mounted katanas)

Also -> Silva and Aegis ! dammit DE! Why would we want a primed toiletbrush fck sake! Give us the option to turn the prime skin off just like the frames cuz some primes look absolutely worse than the original designs.

 

 

 

[CuChulainnWD]

On 2020-08-28 at 8:33 AM, CuChulainnWD said:

I saw ONE Scintallent spawn, and it was not in a well trafficked area, but way up in some infested rafters tucked away. It was only for looking for secret door toggles, that I came across it. No pinging sound, way out of the way, and near impossible for anyone else to pick up the drop as it does indeed act like a wisp; especially if they are a room or two over from you. Not nice DE.
 

Concerning conservation the avian creatures need a marker or something to spot on the mini map, because in some locations they are either not spawning at all, especially those near caves and covered with massive infested growths, or they are spawning inside said growths and still undetectable to the scanner. Not cool, If the tags are so important to rank up son token acquisition,then make it remotely possible to get the bloody bounties, rather than hoping that the call point ins in some remote and open area. Ridiculous.

It appears that the vast majority of spawn points for the creatures are virtually in the same location. It would be nice to see the avians spawn on the east side of the map for example, or the criptolaxes spawning in dark areas, instead of high perch's where you would expect an avian call point to be located. Just a thought DE.

Also ENOUGH with the Nora glass interruptions every 5 mins in mission, especially in Free Roam, it is way over board, and now rather tedious. Please DE tone down or get rid of Nora on the Cambrian pronto.

Given the broken state of the Avian conservation targets, and the fact that the band aid solution is to have us buy tags with plat, will DE be refunding us the plat for the tags back after the fact many of us have "beta tested" the hell out  of the conservation just to get 0 tags?

Personally I am not amused that I put the time and effort into the game, to do my part as "required" in conservation just to advance with Son tokens, to get nothing for my efforts because the avian conservation targets either do not spawn or are so clipped with the environment that they are not targetable nor visible to identify. Me having to use plat to buy tags for the rare avians never mind the regular ones is rather unacceptable at this point. Fix your game DE, and refund our plat when you finally do get around to fixing the real problem with the conservation spawns.

[ixidron92]

The truth: It was never about the tokens. It was all about what you had to do to get them and how you had to get them.

I know full well this thread is a waste of my time, since devs don't really bother with anything outside the first couple of pages of their dedicated threads, and my time would be better spent in Twitter or Reddit if I ever wanted them to read this, but here it goes anyway.

Debt bonds worked and blended really nice with the Fortuna progression system. There ware no complains there. Then, why a system that mimics debt bonds and even gives us a way to stack standing, failed so hard?

Back to the first sentence of the thread: The tokens themselves are fine, they way to get them is flawed, extremely so. 

Think about debt bonds again. Different tier bounties reward different debt bonds, and then you could exchange various resources for more debt bonds. So, all you had to do was play normally, and you'd get them fair and square.

What's the difference with Entrati Tokens? That you don't get most Entrati tokens fair and square by playing normally.

Mother tokens, you get from bounties, that is fair, and not a single soul ever complained about the amount of tokens you get from Mother.

Father tokens, you exchange for various resources, which, again, you get from normal gameplay. Just playing normally would be more than enough to get all his tokens all the time. The only complain was that, sometimes, Father would ask for Scintillant, and in vast amounts. That, being an extremely rare and hard to obtain resource, meant people consider the trade unfair. So, it was removed, and now everyone thinks it's perfectly fair. 

Daughter and Otak tokens, you can also exchange various resources for them. Yes, Daughter leans toward fishing resources and Otak toward mining, but all of the resources, while they can be farmed effectively by playing the mining and fishing minigames, they also drop from enemies, and from Isolation vaults.

Which brings us to: Son tokens. This was the main reason of the outcry. Not only is Conservation a near-universally despised, total failure of a system the devs even needed cheats to showcase and spent about an hour to capture a single animal. Not only it's buggy as #*!%, animals are hard to spot, they are also random, and after you've captured your randomly spawning animals, with randomly spawning rarity, you'll have to contempt with another 4 layers of RNG to exchange tags for tokens. You had 2 randomly selected animals, of randomly selected rarity, of randomly selected quantity, for a randomly selected amount of token. 

You put 6 layers of RNG to get tokens. Which means, a lucky guy could easily get them in a couple of runs, or an unlucky fella could spend hours and hours and end up with nothing. 

This brings me to the main point of this thread:

RNG vs Effort

Players value effort and time invested; it gives meaning to a reward. Syndicates require a massive amount of time invested. Focus, requires even more time investment. MR, also an incredible amount of time, effort and resources. The Helminth system also requires time and resources and there are no complains there other than strangely high amount of resources asked for some uncommon resources, compared to the low amount of resources asked for common ones.

RNG is why people cried. RNG is why there was a lot of complaining when it came to Railjack and Old Blood. RNG, by itself, is not necessarily bad. When it takes you little effort to do something, when what you want is not the primary reward, or when the gameplay is fun, RNG is acceptable. However, mix effort, time invested and RNG, and that's a recipe for disaster. 

That is why people complained about Son Tokens and Scintillant for that matter. You took a system many consider the opposite of fun and that's a side-task unrelated to normal gameplay and that takes a lot of time and effort and you slapped 6 layers of RNG on it and then made the system mandatory for progression. That is one the stupidest decisions I've ever witnessed.

People would have never complained about tokens if the tasks had alternatives and if the token exchange system was fair, even if the tokens required to rank up was way higher. You know what pisses people off? Unequal pay for equal work. Heck, we've been fighting against that in society for years, and the worst part is that a random number generator decides how much your effort counts, how much value your time invested has. Person A did one run and got lucky, gets to the next level in 15 minutes. Person B has terrible luck and gets to spend hours hitting his head against the wall, repeating a task he doesn't like in the first place.

Had the Tokens had a fixed exchange rate: Say, 1 fish or 10 fish parts of any kind (even mixed) for 1 Daughter token, 10 minerals or 5 gems of any kind (even mixed) for 1 Otak token, 1 animal tag for 1 (+1-3 bad/good/perfect capture bonus) Son tokens, 20 mixed resources for 1 Father token, there would have been 0 complaints, even if the rank up asks for 100 tokens each. Why? Because it's fair for everyone. Everyone invests the same amount of time and effort. The rewards are fixed, and you get what you need by playing normally. 

People value effort over RNG. If you ask people to perform a task and give them a choice between 0-5 RNG points reward, or 2 points guaranteed, and ask to reach 100 points, people will chose the fixed amount 99% of the time. That's why people view incredibly time and effort consuming system such as the focus system as fair, over RNG systems such as the token system, and the funny thing is, that even with RNG, the token system would take a tiny fraction of what it'd take you to grind the focus system, yet people would gladly choose the focus system because people hate unequal rewards for equal effort and time invested. 

Now, I'll go watch a movie or something, knowing full well no one will read this, let alone someone that matters, that this won't change anything, and that this thread will be buried by others in a matter of hours. 

[Zendadaist]

The Official drop tables page still needs to be updated with the Bounty rewards.

[DaMasque]

The Necraloid syndicate quickly loses its use when its maxed rank.

Please allow us to buy Mech mods from Necraloid after we maxed rank it.

If we can buy k-drive mods from Ventkids, why can't we buy mods from Necraloid?

[NightmareT12]

I've realized you can't hand in Companions in exchange of Son tokens once you've reached standing limit, although I don't see how that makes any sense as you're getting tokens and not actual standing. Shouldn't this be changed?

[Anirv]

Guys, please for the love of god, do something with Scintillant. Farming it is a literall hell, did 30 vaults today, got like 1 and another one after doing 40 bounties. It is a sad joke, there`s a difference between something being rare and almost impossible to drop.

Cant it be like a guaranted drop from something? We need just like 12 in total, why it has to be so rare.

[Her_Lovely_Tentacles]

 .

[xxvaderxxar]

The fact that Scintillant was left on this state for your RELEASE WEEKEND is incredibly unprofessional.

Imagine how many heads would roll if on opening weekend only a very small percentage of the audience were allowed to buy tickets.

[tennomantra]

Not sure where to put this. It's a small qol change that is needed. Currently extraction point (green zone) when returning from the drift excludes the area at the entry door to the hub (red area). Extraction zone needs to simply be moved a upwards (yellow circle), to include the area where many people intuitively go to expecting to immediately extract. 

[Faerwald]

Here's my take on the economy:

The rates for certain vendors are nonsensical (seriously, 20 grandmother tokens for a seriglass shard?), but I think the token system is a step in the right direction (I mean if you insist on having timegates, which you could just remove, y'know).

However I think it'd be better if we could buy the wares from merchants directly with said tokens. Or just get rid of the tokens and give us a "standing pool". Like we'd earn standing, but it wouldn't go to ranking up the faction, just to the pool. We could then decide to use that pool either toward buying stuff, or toward ranking up. Only the latter would have a daily limit. But we could still shop to our heart's content.

Also Otak tokens seem quite hard to get. I've mined for a couple of hours and didn't get a single thaumica or necrathene, and he always want some of those. So either something is wrong with the drop rate, or Otak token need to be reward more standing when traded.

 

 

[kyori]

Besides Scintillant previously, has anyone mentioned Necrathene and Thaumica are also extremely rare?

[NecroPed]

The increased standing cap from MR is not consistent with the amount of standing you get for tokens in Deimos. Having my standing increased by 750 leaves 50 leftover that wont get added to my standing or wastes 50 standing of the smallest token available. It would be nice if all standing caps regardless of level had increments consistent with the lowest available standing increase in deimos syndicates. It might only be 50 standing so it's not too bothersome, but it just irks me having to waste some standing regardless of what I do. And over time the inconsistencies stack up and are made worse with syndicates having 1,000 standing as the minimum provided. Missing out on 50-250 standing a day causes a period of time before balancing standing to a point it doesn't waste any and repeats the cycle until your cap hits a certain point that prevents wastage. 

[Decinomic0n]

It should not take 6 tags to get one son token, at most it should be 1 token for common creatures, 2 for uncommon, 3 for rare. Son tokens are only worth 500, use the values to compare to the creatures from PoE and orb valis. One perfect rare creature cap was enough for 2000 standing, why does it take multiple rare creatures on deimos to get 1000 standing worth of tokens?