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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


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This resource Scintillant ..... i cant even put too words what DE did and how that makes me feel. As a long time player and even as a founder i have never seen this before. Even the Cetus Wisp was more common back then... If they will not fix this fast it will make more and more players leave the game.

Edited by xZephyrosx
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1 hour ago, _Blackeye_ said:

Scintillant is a big problem. If the common drop from the bounties is fixed this will be solved.

But the biggest problem I see are the seriglass shards. Granny asks 20 tokens/shard and we need 60 tokens (!) to build the new weapons. If getting all the different tokens was easier then sure. But some of the tokens are just too hard to get + we're being forced to do things we don't want to do. I think it's more reasonable for the shards to cost 5 granny tokens.

Also (don't know where to put this), the 'feature' of having to do all 3 ISO tiers in 1 cycle is just annoying as there's no difference between doing it in the 2 cycles. Pls disable that...

IMO having the cycle limitation doesn't make sense and discourages players from starting one close to a fass/vome change.

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3 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

1) Let's compare the gains for infinitely farmable items on Cetus and Deimos.  I'm going to do the math, because apparently "bad" is all you can say.  I'm not going to comment on boosters, because a booster influences both the drop of material (specifically gems) on PoE as well as the tags for Deimos and thus is  fallacious argument.  Per before, at best you're going to get 4-5 tags per token for the son, of 100-125 standing per capture.  What then is the value of minerals?

Azurite/Devar - 50

Veridos -75

Crimzian - 100

Sentirum/Nyth - 400

The math here is pretty simple, so I'm not going to show the permutations.  Short answer, murdering a single thumper can net you a lot of standing, their spawn is 90-120 seconds at minimum.  You've therefore far outstripped the ability to gain standing when compared to the random spawn of up to 3 enemies which are worth about 125 each, or 375 standing.  This is especially true when you consider the ransom repayment of tags.  Your comment about "poor pricing" also fails to account for getting way more than one gem at a time.

As a side note here, what about the rest of the minerals?  Welcome to Deimos.  The new stuff actually requires ferros to craft, meaning that going back to PoE or having huge stashes from previous runs is now ideal.  This integration between the open worlds is frustrating to players who did minimum resource acquisition, but means people who have tons of the resources are now just dandy.  I know I'm looking at 660 of each processed metal, and it's going to make kitgun and other crafting much easier.

As a point of clarification, my commentary is that the tokens are broken here because of the RNG and timer.  Both of these things have been implemented as a means to prevent people from simply grinding out insane amounts of standing.  My point here is that this is integral to the system to prevent abuse and extend engagement, so the system as structured needs to go.  You can't look at one part and say it's good, and ignore the vital other part that is bad.  It's a complete system, hence the good and bad being irrelevant commentary when the removal of the "bad" would lead to an economy broken and centered exclusively on grinding.

 

2) Let's do some conservation comparison.  I'm going to PoE , and need 20k standing.  To get it, I run the door circuit as a Loki.  Invisibility means no grineer animal kills, all perfect, and the circuit means I can get kuakas and condrocs.  Kuakas are worth 500 a pop at minimum, where they spawn at 3 per area.  Condros are worth more, and also spawn at 3 per area.  The net effect is each group is worth in excess of 1000 standing period.  If I get the same 3 target spawn on Deimos it's worth less than a tag, or less than 500 standing.  Now let's talk Fortuna.    

The trash animals on Fortuna spawn 3 at once (pobbers) from conservation points.  They reward about the same as Kuakas on PoE, which is more than Deimos.  The great enemies on Fortuna spawn 1 at a time, but produce many thousands of affinity for a single capture.  In effect 5 hunts will max daily standing, get you tags (10 with a booster) which you can trade for floofs if you want, and takes 10-20 minutes at most. 

Let's factor all of this in, and get ranges.

Deimos grants the worst standing per capture.

Deimos burns away tags to get standing, so each of those floofs is now a statement that you don't care about the standing costs.

PoE generates the most random spawn standing gains.

Fortuna  generates the greatest rewards per conservation tracking event.

Tags in Fortuna and PoE are only useful for getting floofs after standing is maxed...but there's no associated direct cost or potential reward.  

Once a creature is weakened it doesn't give a tag, setting up competition for pet creation and tags.

The end game here is that Deimos is by far the worst area for conservation.  The mitigating factor is theoretically no limitation on earnings and never having a horde of tags.  Neither of these things are acceptable, given this is a game for hording and that the token system has two hard limits on the theoretical limitless earning which make real earnings far less lucrative.

So, what's my point?  Numerically Deimos is the worst conservation area, and that's easy to demonstrate with numbers.  Deimos sets up a system where floofs are not a reward, but a solid cost.  I must like floofs then, right?  Nope, I hate them.  They're a distraction from improving core systems, but I also acknowledge that people like them.  As they are an art asset, and people do want them, I have a problem when DE introduces a less rewarding system which effectively makes getting floofs a large opportunity cost.  Son definitely fits the phrase of "large opportunity cost."  This is the core argument, not lazy players.  I would also touch on the bugged in-wall spawns....but that's entirely different.  Expecting DE makes a huge release, and has core features not working, is not acceptable.  Noting a significant decrease in economy is unacceptable.  Taking away that little bit of happiness floofs offer is depressing.  This isn't lazy players, it people expressing frustration with a bad system but not articulating the issues well.

 

3) Fair.  I find that 4 runs of the tier 4 bounty offer in excess of 302 mother tokens.  That's max daily standing.  I'm accumulating the other tokens to get the seriglass shard, but right now I cannot afford the blue prints because I want to rank up.  In my book, that's a decent progression.  I actually have to decide whether to rank up or get the content.  Considering the Zymos is very niche, and the claws were also very niche, I'm going to spend that standing on  level up to stop this family fighting.  Hopefully at maximum rank the family is a little less...frustrating to deal with.

I will say though that Grandmother is frustrating.  If you're going to claim that a "Captura Artist" is a thing then hiding scenes behind 50 Grandmother tokens is nuts.  While you and I might look at that and simply blow a raspberry, there's a case to be made for slightly less grindy costs.

 

4) My point here is that praise should not be offered.  The item I'm focused on is: "...The rank-up requirements are also easy to obtain. So, Necraloid progression is a breeze, making up for how hollow it is since it can be breezed by."

Let's talk about learned lessons, and what should have been done.  PoE and Fortuna introduced their secondary factions well after launch.  They offered content via amps and arcanes, with cosmetics tacked on for anyone so inclined.  That was decent design, and launching after mainline release to allow for enough to be developed to matter.  Instead of learning from this, we're forced to grind the provided mission an insane amount of times to get RNG mech part drops, then more to get mods.  No lessons learned from the 5% drop chances of arcanes from eidolons, or the need for direct purchasing options via the Scarlet Spear event.  Ouch.  As such, progression in the syndicate is largely a placeholder, and DE should not have released it.

What I am reading is that the progression is acceptable.  Maybe that's not intended.  I will offer that it was a potential misunderstanding and apologize for that, assuming such.

1) 'Bad' is all that needs to be said. It's either the most efficient option (good), or it doesn't exist for the purposes of efficient grinding (bad).

By that token, fishing is the only worthwhile way to grind Ostron rep, with Murkrays being the most efficient and convenient fish to grind.
That is, of course, assuming the player in question has the legacy fish bait blueprints. As an aside, I still don't get why so many players welcomed the change from blueprint to having to pay rep per each bait. The change made using fishing to grind rep into an uphill battle for any player who came into PoE after the change, having to spend rep to earn rep.
Murkrays are S/M/L 500/625/1000 rep per fish, affected by BOTH resource boosters (drop amount and drop chance (drop chance booster increases fish spawns, but does not impact Thumper drops at all)) as well as Smeeta's Charm. They're always available (not day exclusive) and do not have a 90-120 second minimum cooldown followed by a one-at-a-time, potentially lengthy fight.

In this case, 'bad' is also a comparison to Fortuna mining. Fortuna gems reward 50/50/200/500/1000/1000 rep each, a large sum in comparison to Cetus' paltry sum of 50/50/75/100/400/400 rep each. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves.

It doesn't take long to mine the missing resources from Fortuna and Cetus and grab the few fish. A couple hundred Pyrol and Travoride, some Veridos and Auron, etc. Not that bad.

"An economy centered on grinding", you say? Is that not every system in the entire game of Warframe? Take the RNG and timegate out of the Tokens, and what do you get? A system consistent with the entirety of the remainder of the game.

 

2) I'm not arguing the numbers of Deimos conservation. The 'how is it worse' question was something I was moving around in an earlier version of the post and forgot to remove. At base, it very clearly awards the lowest numbers per conservation. I'm arguing that Deimos conservation is not worse, but a sidegrade to other conservation, due to being passive gains (not needing to go out of one's way to do conservation like you mentioned doing in PoE and Fortuna) that can be improved with a booster that a player is likely already running due to getting a 'new open world, new resources' booster. I consider it to be a cherry on top of the other Entrati member tokens, a way to acquire bonus standing at a decent rate while doing all the other content.

I like this, because so much of the bounty content is 'hurry up and wait'-type objectives that there is plenty of time to seek out nearby things to do such as mining and conservation, since abilities can solo many objectives on their own. I spend almost the entire first two of three stages for each Iso Vault mining, and spend most of the waiting time in regular bounties hunting nearby conservation targets. In other words, another reason I like conservation is that it makes the bounties feel more bearable (greater efficiency per time spent) and rewarding than they truly are. And though it does point to a core problem of poorly designed bounties and Deimos content in general, I have a similar view on it as I do the Necraloid faction - a part of the grind is obnoxious, but there are enough cherries piled on the piece of excrement that it doesn't feel as bad to swallow. Granted, I'm mainly playing this update for the Helminth system, so the rest of Deimos being a disappointment is not much of a concern to me. Deimos content is just something to do while waiting for the Helminth timegates to pass, since every default Warframe is sitting ready-to-claim in the foundry.

 

3) Wouldn't people in the new 'Creator program' that are labelled as 'artists' get access to the new Captura Scenes/cosmetics on launch right off the bat, similar to how the members of the former Partner Program got the new items day 1 of release to be able to show them off? Or is that not how it works?

 

4) Agreed, DE did not learn many lessons from their previous open world releases - DE did the similar things in Deimos launch as they did in both PoE and Fortuna launch.

Vomvalysts/Teralysts were available day 1 of PoE, as was the Quills faction. I remember how the rep economy was so bad that both the main Ostron faction and the Quills shared the same daily rep cap, leaving me unable to turn in my Exceptional cores from my first Teralyst. Just like Deimos, the Quills were released 'unfinished'. The Gantulyst and Hydrolyst were added into the game much later.

Similar to the current Necraloid faction, Vox Solaris was released with 2 available ranks and also mediocre rewards (cosmetics), only to have Profittaker introduced later. Still waiting on the 3rd spider orb, by the way.

By the way, "The rank-up requirements are also easy to obtain. So, Necraloid progression is a breeze, making up for how hollow it is since it can be breezed by" is not praise. It's saying that the content is bad but it's quick enough to get through where the suffering is at least not prolonged, so it's not as bad as it could be.

I'm saying that the Necraloid progression (Necraloid standing via Orokin Matrices) is easy, since triple Iso Vaults are also easy. The main slog is for the Mech/Cortege pieces, with Orokin Matrices being an unintended product of farming for the Mech/Cortege pieces, for most. So Necraloid progression is not the painful part of the painful grind - the Mech/Cortege pieces are.

And even that isn't bad at all. Resource drop boosters and Smeeta's Charm affect drops of the damaged Mech pieces, making it easy to trade your spares for someone else's spares of a different piece. The Cortege pieces are the only grindfest item-drop since they cannot be doubled... but the Cortege is only decent as archguns go, so what's the point of slogging it out?

 

I lost track of where I was going with this halfway through and wrote this entirely out of order, so if I reference some things you haven't read yet, hopefully they're here somewhere.

Edited by shootaman777
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Scintillant is completely unreasonable as a resource.... the supposedly "common" drop never drops, and as a rare, from rank 1... lets just say I have 10 of the weapon blueprints that are supposedly "rare", but 0 scintillant, after farming way more of all the bounties that supposedly drop scintillant.

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The Son Tokens have the most unreasonable turnaround rate, mostly because out of all of the token givers(minus grandmother) he is the only one whose token requirements don't have a chance to drop from loot canisters or the like, and then take too many tags for a single token(compared to Father and Daughter who will give tokens for one resource type).

Mining could do with a touch up as well, specifically Thaumica. Spent the better part of a day mining for it, and wound up with plenty of everything but Thaumica. This included other rare minerals.

I am enjoying this update, but it really feels like filler content.

 

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eTonoeP.png
This is a table sorted by the number of times I can feed each resource to the Helminth. I've over 2300 hours in the game, so it seems reasonable that I'd have averaged out by now on the expected distribution of these resources. As can be clearly seen, there are some inconsistencies in the usefulness of certain resources. I'm not coming in with a solution or even suggesting that there is necessarily a problem, but I just wanted to drop off this information for anyone who is interested, seeing as I went to the effort of making it out of my own curiosity.

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51 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

1) 'Bad' is all that needs to be said. It's either the most efficient option (good), or it doesn't exist for the purposes of efficient grinding (bad).

By that token, fishing is the only worthwhile way to grind Ostron rep, with Murkrays being the most efficient and convenient fish to grind.
That is, of course, assuming the player in question has the legacy fish bait blueprints. As an aside, I still don't get why so many players welcomed the change from blueprint to having to pay rep per each bait. The change made using fishing to grind rep into an uphill battle for any player who came into PoE after the change, having to spend rep to earn rep.
Murkrays are S/M/L 500/625/1000 rep per fish, affected by BOTH resource boosters (drop amount and drop chance (drop chance booster increases fish spawns, but does not impact Thumper drops at all)) as well as Smeeta's Charm. They're always available (not day exclusive) and do not have a 90-120 second minimum cooldown followed by a one-at-a-time, potentially lengthy fight.

In this case, 'bad' is also a comparison to Fortuna mining. Fortuna gems reward 50/50/200/500/1000/1000 rep each, a large sum in comparison to Cetus' paltry sum of 50/50/75/100/400/400 rep each. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves.

It doesn't take long to mine the missing resources from Fortuna and Cetus and grab the few fish. A couple hundred Pyrol and Travoride, some Veridos and Auron, etc. Not that bad.

"An economy centered on grinding", you say? Is that not every system in the entire game of Warframe? Take the RNG and timegate out of the Tokens, and what do you get? A system consistent with the entirety of the remainder of the game.

 

2) I'm not arguing the numbers of Deimos conservation. The 'how is it worse' question was something I was moving around in an earlier version of the post and forgot to remove. At base, it very clearly awards the lowest numbers per conservation. I'm arguing that Deimos conservation is not worse, but a sidegrade to other conservation, due to being passive gains (not needing to go out of one's way to do conservation like you mentioned doing in PoE and Fortuna) that can be improved with a booster that a player is likely already running due to getting a 'new open world, new resources' booster. I consider it to be a cherry on top of the other Entrati member tokens, a way to acquire bonus standing at a decent rate while doing all the other content.

I like this, because so much of the bounty content is 'hurry up and wait'-type objectives that there is plenty of time to seek out nearby things to do such as mining and conservation, since abilities can solo many objectives on their own. I spend almost the entire first two of three stages for each Iso Vault mining, and spend most of the waiting time in regular bounties hunting nearby conservation targets. In other words, another reason I like conservation is that it makes the bounties feel more bearable (greater efficiency per time spent) and rewarding than they truly are. And though it does point to a core problem of poorly designed bounties and Deimos content in general, I have a similar view on it as I do the Necraloid faction - a part of the grind is obnoxious, but there are enough cherries piled on the piece of excrement that it doesn't feel as bad to swallow. Granted, I'm mainly playing this update for the Helminth system, so the rest of Deimos being a disappointment is not much of a concern to me. Deimos content is just something to do while waiting for the Helminth timegates to pass, since every default Warframe is sitting ready-to-claim in the foundry.

 

3) Wouldn't people in the new 'Creator program' that are labelled as 'artists' get access to the new Captura Scenes/cosmetics on launch right off the bat, similar to how the members of the former Partner Program got the new items day 1 of release to be able to show them off? Or is that not how it works?

 

4) Agreed, DE did not learn many lessons from their previous open world releases - DE did the similar things in Deimos launch as they did in both PoE and Fortuna launch.

Vomvalysts/Teralysts were available day 1 of PoE, as was the Quills faction. I remember how the rep economy was so bad that both the main Ostron faction and the Quills shared the same daily rep cap, leaving me unable to turn in my Exceptional cores from my first Teralyst. Just like Deimos, the Quills were released 'unfinished'. The Gantulyst and Hydrolyst were added into the game much later.

Similar to the current Necraloid faction, Vox Solaris was released with 2 available ranks and also mediocre rewards (cosmetics), only to have Profittaker introduced later. Still waiting on the 3rd spider orb, by the way.

By the way, "The rank-up requirements are also easy to obtain. So, Necraloid progression is a breeze, making up for how hollow it is since it can be breezed by" is not praise. It's saying that the content is bad but it's quick enough to get through where the suffering is at least not prolonged, so it's not as bad as it could be.

I'm saying that the Necraloid progression (Necraloid standing via Orokin Matrices) is easy, since triple Iso Vaults are also easy. The main slog is for the Mech/Cortege pieces, with Orokin Matrices being an unintended product of farming for the Mech/Cortege pieces, for most. So Necraloid progression is not the painful part of the painful grind - the Mech/Cortege pieces are.

And even that isn't bad at all. Resource drop boosters and Smeeta's Charm affect drops of the damaged Mech pieces, making it easy to trade your spares for someone else's spares of a different piece. The Cortege pieces are the only grindfest item-drop since they cannot be doubled... but the Cortege is only decent as archguns go, so what's the point of slogging it out?

 

I lost track of where I was going with this halfway through and wrote this entirely out of order, so if I reference some things you haven't read yet, hopefully they're here somewhere.

1) Let me put this very simply, you are trying to change the goals.  The token system was sold to us as  way to prevent losses of standing, and allow for infinite gains.  Your argument is that only the most efficient means of gaining standing should exist.  Two completely separate arguments.

Now, let's come to amicable terms.  It is most likely that people will chose the most efficient farm, fine.  That is not the case with the side systems (fishing, conservation, and mining), because some people utterly hate them.  The goal should therefore be that all side systems are roughly as rewarding as each other.  If that is the goal, Deimos has failed dramatically in providing.  They have made conservation marginally rewarding, mining less rewarding, and fishing less rewarding.  These activities are actually required through the progression of the open world unlike before. 

This means that net influence, regarding the economy, is that it's a step back.   It isn't giving us anything new, and it's price is shockingly high in grindy RNG mechanics.  This is all despite implementing the reactive towers which can drop plenty of resources on kills, isolation vault resource caches, and what seems to be good RNG spawning of animals for conservation without the need for the tracking process.  In short, a step forward and three back.

 

Regarding an economy of grind....there's two versions.  Good grind is something like focus.  Small initial goals, larger goals as you go, and completion via something you already want to do (earn affinity).  Bad grind is very low percentage drops, an endless activity which forces a single type of engagement, and lackluster rewards.  My go-to example is the Braton Vandal.  That's the difference.  Grind is not bad, when rewards are good enough to justify it.  

 

 

2) The point of installing those time gates was to force player engagement and decrease rewards.  If that's not obvious, consider that they extended the timer on one of the events already.  Given that vaults have by far the largest density of mineral deposits, I get it.  At the same time let's project a little farther into the future.  A future without resource boosters, and one where the vault runs are forgotten and basically require you run them solo.  I say all of this because at this time I have everything but the mods, and I don't think I'm going to continue running it because it's a 10-15 minute time gate amounting to about 40 minutes for the worst token count.  It's high on resources....but there's no content to spend it on.  This is the future of many players.

Now, remove the ability to have your team kill for you and mine.  Remove the ability to simply allow someone else to engage with the forced waits.  What is left?  You've taken away all the cherries of other things to do.  I'd argue that this is the reason for the garbage relic inclusion, under the auspices of "evergreen" content.  I'd argue this is why Scintillant is listed as a "common" drop but it's literally the rarest reward (like sub 8%).  That little diversion is just not enough, and the rewards aren't even great.

Regarding the Helminth....it's my worst fears.  Useful data is obfuscated so it's a roll of the dice what powers use what resources.  It takes level 8 to fix things if you go below green, which is a permanent penalty until you reach a high level.  Moreover, the abilities themselves have been underwhelming.  I'm feeding it daily, subsuming, and then ignoring so as to not lose the bonus given the terrifyingly bad Bile economy and heavy railjack resource requirements.  It's another huge grind, with limited rewards, where grinding it effectively kills your ability to grind efficiently.  Ouch.

 

 

3) That's not how it worked.  Creators used to generally get the new content day 1 for testing.  That wasn't primes or drops, it was frames and weapons.  It wasn't everything, it was just a leg up and not having grind.

The new program...who knows.  Based upon the terms it'll basically be the same.  If you're a captura artist you've got to grind like everyone else.  The up-side would be the Grendel/Harrow grinds wouldn't be necessary, but that's an entirely different bit of crazy.

 

 

4) I'd like to review everything in-depth, but erased the long explanation.  The nuts and bolts here is that mechs are available to grind day 1, there's only 1, and we can already earn 21000 standing in about 40 minutes (double with a booster).  As such, the point here is that this syndicate launched too early.  It's not fun, but it was the way they justified having mechs.  It was a stupid decision, as by the time the actual quests came about for PoE and Fortuna (Profit-Taker and Tri-dolon respectively) there was content to aspire to having.  DE promised mechs, and their launch state is a grind wall.   Onkko and Little Duck soft launched to allow extreme grinding, but by the time they really launched it wasn't two pieces of content dragged out to 9 purchases to pad grind.

The counter argument here is that at one point you bought arcane blue prints, then had to grind for crafting materials.  Being fair, that was garbage.  At the same time, the economy did change.  DE side-stepped that with this update by simply stretching content.  I believe anything but damnation for this practice is misplaced.  What I read was acceptance, with the acknowledgement of it being not ideal.  That's something I take umbrage with, because it's how content dies.

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There's still Far too much reliance on son tokens/conservation

I have spent at least twice the amount of time on conservation that I have on everything else, in particular because guilding costs 10 son tokens per animal (should be maybe 5) and there are 6, plus of course certain deco costs son tokens.  I have also blown another 300 or so plat on daily special tags.  I'm still nowhere near where I need to be.

I also have about 1/2 that time on conservation using invis ivara for perfect captures and zipping around the edges for speed captures because it's 10x Faster than traditional conservation and much more varied.

Overall you're making us do about 3x as much time on conservation as literally everything else in the update, and it's also the most universally disliked mini game in the game.

Adding the tags for plat was good, yes, especially for people just trying to rank up, but I really shouldn't be asked to put 3x as much time into this, and 300p just to eek out the new pets, let alone if I want unique deco for my dojo.  I can afford the 300 plat, but a lot of players can't.  Also, I could afford 1000p, but should I really be asked to spend 300p plus 3x as much effort and still not be on target?  That's just obnoxious and absurd.  

I want you to know that aside from the necramech fatal game breaking bugs of health and xp, this is the worst part of the update and it's super ugly and wrong, otherwise the update is enjoyable for the most part and really a strong release even though it needs a lot of cleaning and polish still once the bugs are fixed.

Please fix, and more importantly, LEARN FROM THIS.

Yes, some people love your conservation mini game and floofs and such.  

Most of us hate it across the board and find it to be a giant distraction and waste of time and forcing us to do it makes us very unhappy and kills enjoyment. 

PLEASE DO NOT EVER MANDATE THIS AWFUL MINI GAME AGAIN.

It's honestly fine for nightwave and such, because the whole point of that is to get us to interact with different parts of the game we otherwise wouldn't/don't and it provides a nice change of pace for reasonable rewards.

Mandating it as a necessity for progression though, that's awful and hated.  With vallis and then plains it was an optional way to earn standing, with this it's mandatory and that sucks a lot.  I hate it, most of the player base hates it.

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Grandmother's Oddities:

The screen should show if you already own the glyph (or preferably place a different one in that you don't own, or not show the glyph) so you don't buy it more than once.  There is zero reason to own more than one copy of a glyph.  As someone collecting all 8 for my dojo deco room based on the power words/houses, this annoying and bad UX.

dw035cH.jpg

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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6 hours ago, xZephyrosx said:

This resource Scintillant ..... i cant even put too words what DE did and how that makes me feel. As a long time player and even as a founder i have never seen this before. Even the Cetus Wisp was more common back then... If they will not fix this fast it will make more and more players leave the game.

they already fixed, i got many Scintillant from isolate.

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1 hour ago, ToKeSia said:

they already fixed, i got many Scintillant from isolate.

not fixed enough.
Theres people who did vaults all day after that fix that got squat.

Needs to just be a standing item with Necroloid, the faction thats now useless after the mech/arcgun is crafted.
Make it so you can get 2 a day or something.

 

Also to put scillitant in perspective. Ive crafted everything else BUT Xaku & Quassus now. (including pets) And still need 8 Scillitant.
 

Edited by VoreoTheDragon
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40 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

At the same time let's project a little farther into the future.  A future without resource boosters, and one where the vault runs are forgotten and basically require you run them solo.  I say all of this because at this time I have everything but the mods, and I don't think I'm going to continue running it because it's a 10-15 minute time gate amounting to about 40 minutes for the worst token count.  It's high on resources....but there's no content to spend it on.  This is the future of many players.

I want to say that I by and large agree with everything you are saying.

That said, DE has made a habbit of nerfing the requirements significantly for most things about 2 years after launch, not just open worlds, but focus, etc.

I'm saying this because that kind of makes this point invalid as those players will undoubtedly be able to have a higher power level and decreased needs to progress with better drop rates.

Consider condition overload just 4 months ago was 80p, now you can't give them away because of A) steel path which tanked the price to like 20p, and then now with bounties where the mods are now in the unsellable category.

Edited by Klokwerkaos
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7 minutes ago, VoreoTheDragon said:

not fixed enough.
Theres people who did vaults all day after that fix that got squat.

Needs to just be a standing item with Necroloid, the faction thats now useless after the mech/arcgun is crafted.
Make it so you can get 2 a day or something.

I don't think that's a bad route to go.  Making them purchasable for like 15k standing each would be a viable use for standing there.  This would also meet the MR requirements (14 = 14000 standing plus 1125 base).

That makes it almost 2 a day if you cap at 29, 2 a day at 30, so if you grind all day and get nothing you can at least use your standing for something.

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1 hour ago, (NSW)H2amster said:

why does conservation feel so unrewarding that fortuna or cetus? or i just don't like giving away my tags to not get floofs

Thats pretty much the whole reason why it feels so unrewarding.

Son Tokens can be stupidly expensive, demanding you to have upwards to 10 tags for rare or uncommon animal spawns - which for that sort of demand makes Floofs feel especially not worth it given the lack of standing gain.

Meanwhile PoE and Fortuna don't feel quite as punishing because you can spend your tags on floofs and such all you want without it ever impacting your standing with Cetus as a whole or your ability to gain required items for some of the new weapons in Deimos.

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I'll keep it simple: These are the things I Like:

  1. The quest is okay, I like the character and the voice acting
  2. The world is small, but its okay. Bigger doesnt mean better anyway
  3. The Necramech feels good. I like this.
  4. The new weapons and mods looks interesting. (havent tested the mods but it does look interesting)
  5. The bounties are okay. As long as i can shoot boom boom the infested it's okay. not tedious nor annoying.

Now unto the things I DONT LIKE

  1. The vault is okay, BUT abit convuluted with all the secrets and what not. I prefer it to be more clear on what to do instead of making it 'secret'.
  2. I don't like conservation becomes mandatory. I dont like it so much and i a firm believer it should be completly optional instead of making it a requirement to rank up the syndicate.

 

That's it. Tbh, overall for me it's just another content to grind for which is for warframe is... okay? But really the conservation puts me off so much.I jst want to shoot shoot and boom boom. 

Have a good day.

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12 hours ago, _Blackeye_ said:

But the biggest problem I see are the seriglass shards. Granny asks 20 tokens/shard and we need 60 tokens (!) to build the new weapons. If getting all the different tokens was easier then sure. But some of the tokens are just too hard to get + we're being forced to do things we don't want to do. I think it's more reasonable for the shards to cost 5 granny tokens.

I agree that Seriglass Shard are booth way too expensive and too awkward to get.

PoE and Fortuna allowed players to choose the way to acquire standing (bounties, fishing, mining). But Heart of Deimos removes the freedom of choice via the over complicated token system. There should only be Entrati tokens and the players should be able to choose their preferred way to acquire them.

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20 minutes ago, (PS4)trontor said:

I agree that Seriglass Shard are booth way too expensive and too awkward to get.

PoE and Fortuna allowed players to choose the way to acquire standing (bounties, fishing, mining). But Heart of Deimos removes the freedom of choice via the over complicated token system. There should only be Entrati tokens and the players should be able to choose their preferred way to acquire them.

I totally agree

Being forced to do certain things goes against anything DE has been preaching over the years 'the choice to do whatever you want'.

Right now I'm burning thourgh resources, to get tokens, to buy other tokens.

I liked the debt-bonds in fortuna which is basically another way to get standing by selling resources. But now we're OBLIGATED to do conservation, mining, fishing and resource farming ON TOP of the resources you need to farm to build stuff.

I like the update (the necramechs are a bit extravagant and the helminth system consumes way to many resources other than that it's ok...) but this new tokens system is just ridiculous.

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the token system isn't overcomplicated. the system gives you incentive to keep playing after the point by which you would have hit the daily standing cap. the types of missions and rewards in cambion drift mean you would hit the cap extremely quickly under the old system.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)trontor said:

I agree that Seriglass Shard are booth way too expensive and too awkward to get.

PoE and Fortuna allowed players to choose the way to acquire standing (bounties, fishing, mining). But Heart of Deimos removes the freedom of choice via the over complicated token system. There should only be Entrati tokens and the players should be able to choose their preferred way to acquire them.

 

4 hours ago, _Blackeye_ said:

I totally agree

Being forced to do certain things goes against anything DE has been preaching over the years 'the choice to do whatever you want'.

Right now I'm burning thourgh resources, to get tokens, to buy other tokens.

I liked the debt-bonds in fortuna which is basically another way to get standing by selling resources. But now we're OBLIGATED to do conservation, mining, fishing and resource farming ON TOP of the resources you need to farm to build stuff.

I like the update (the necramechs are a bit extravagant and the helminth system consumes way to many resources other than that it's ok...) but this new tokens system is just ridiculous.

I honestly had no issues with getting the 4 Seriglass shards.

Scillitant however is the worst part of Deimos, at least Conservation you dont *have* to do the lures this time, everything spawns in the wild.

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10 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I want to say that I by and large agree with everything you are saying.

That said, DE has made a habbit of nerfing the requirements significantly for most things about 2 years after launch, not just open worlds, but focus, etc.

I'm saying this because that kind of makes this point invalid as those players will undoubtedly be able to have a higher power level and decreased needs to progress with better drop rates.

Consider condition overload just 4 months ago was 80p, now you can't give them away because of A) steel path which tanked the price to like 20p, and then now with bounties where the mods are now in the unsellable category.

So, I want to offer agreement and disagreement with your statement.  What you are talking about is a set of mods which is available.  To that, I can add the decrease in price to make Mutalist Alad V keys (3 coordinates to 1), the inclusion of acolyte mods in Deimos dropping their price (but this has happened as a function of them also becoming non-meta given the melee rework), and my favorite is completely reworking how bait is done in PoE (buy blue print and craft from other fish parts, to just buy bait for standing).

 

Now let me disagree.  Specifically, let me cite long grinds that have been in the game for years.  Grendel requires 75 vitus essence to buy keys, which requires 100% of the star chart be completed.  Harrow systems drop rarely from rotation C of defection missions.  Eidolons are still 5% drop chances on an item that used to require 10 drops to max, and now requires 21 to max.  

The short of this is that DE generally cuts the grind out of things with exceptional value, but not out of things which everyone genuinely wants.  What are the vault raids then?  Well, the ability to trade mech components points towards them being something that people want.  The singular source of Scintillant means that it's something everyone will need to do content.  The fact they already decided to extend the timers because 30 seconds less made them "too easy" indicates that they want a lot more runs to be done.

 

In short, I don't see isolation vaults as condition overload.  Condition overload has been devalued by having it's generation source dramatically increased, because of a "new" game mode being created to address the desire for bigger enemy levels.  These isolation vaults are closer to Eidolons, Profit-Taker, and Defections.  Put simply, content which will remain unchanged after implementation because the grind isn't game breaking and it can be skipped by paying someone else to do it for you (you can purchase arcanes, all Profit-Taker rewards, and buy Harrow from DE directly).  Condition Overload was, as you put it, an 80p mod and thus there was no opposition to simply tanking the value.  

 

This is a complicated argument, and you're right to poke holes in my stance.  What constitutes something worth devaluing, and what's required content?  My rule in this case would be that long form repeatable quests like bosses don't get a rework after they've been successfully been implemented.  That's what the vaults scream to me.  If you disagree, that's plenty viable.  We'll really have to wait and see, as DE has been remarkably inconsistent about many things.

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On 2020-08-26 at 1:03 AM, Voltage said:

This forced requirement to do conservation and mining is straight up bad. Let me do bounties and play Warframe to progress syndicates, not fishing, conservation, mining, or spending Platinum (to buy fish parts/gems/ores) to get these dumb tokens.

Remove Tokens

Remove Grandmother

Make this like PoE/Fortuna with multiple avenues for progression and just use standing. Stuffing non-combat activities down players' throats isn't fun.

Another good solution would be to keep Granny and let her do straight exchanges of all token types(as they all have 100rep cost they are all equal).

Instead of timed items for exchange(like it is now) will be just exchange of any token type for any token type(you select what you give and what you get like MomTokenx30->SonTokenx30 or DadTokenx5->DaughterTokenx5).

I think such exchange will surely solve the problem as anyone can easily exchange any tokens to type they want.

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1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, I want to offer agreement and disagreement with your statement.  What you are talking about is a set of mods which is available.  To that, I can add the decrease in price to make Mutalist Alad V keys (3 coordinates to 1), the inclusion of acolyte mods in Deimos dropping their price (but this has happened as a function of them also becoming non-meta given the melee rework), and my favorite is completely reworking how bait is done in PoE (buy blue print and craft from other fish parts, to just buy bait for standing).

 

Now let me disagree.  Specifically, let me cite long grinds that have been in the game for years.  Grendel requires 75 vitus essence to buy keys, which requires 100% of the star chart be completed.  Harrow systems drop rarely from rotation C of defection missions.  Eidolons are still 5% drop chances on an item that used to require 10 drops to max, and now requires 21 to max.  

The short of this is that DE generally cuts the grind out of things with exceptional value, but not out of things which everyone genuinely wants.  What are the vault raids then?  Well, the ability to trade mech components points towards them being something that people want.  The singular source of Scintillant means that it's something everyone will need to do content.  The fact they already decided to extend the timers because 30 seconds less made them "too easy" indicates that they want a lot more runs to be done.

 

In short, I don't see isolation vaults as condition overload.  Condition overload has been devalued by having it's generation source dramatically increased, because of a "new" game mode being created to address the desire for bigger enemy levels.  These isolation vaults are closer to Eidolons, Profit-Taker, and Defections.  Put simply, content which will remain unchanged after implementation because the grind isn't game breaking and it can be skipped by paying someone else to do it for you (you can purchase arcanes, all Profit-Taker rewards, and buy Harrow from DE directly).  Condition Overload was, as you put it, an 80p mod and thus there was no opposition to simply tanking the value.  

 

This is a complicated argument, and you're right to poke holes in my stance.  What constitutes something worth devaluing, and what's required content?  My rule in this case would be that long form repeatable quests like bosses don't get a rework after they've been successfully been implemented.  That's what the vaults scream to me.  If you disagree, that's plenty viable.  We'll really have to wait and see, as DE has been remarkably inconsistent about many things.

When I was talking about PoE I was thinking more specifically of wisps and onko grind being much easier these days by a butt ton.

I do agree that there are other aspects of the game that should be buffed, namely the ones you mentioned.

Overall though while there might be cases for and against both arguments, i think we're pretty much on the same page regarding the philosophy and direction of the game and where it should move, so in that much I support you fully if that wasn't clearly evident :)

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