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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


SilverBones
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On 2020-08-30 at 11:25 PM, master_of_destiny said:

Also, welcome the Alpha tester group console players.  Is getting the new content worth dealing with all of the broken economy and bugs yet?  I ask this in jest, but my point is that PC players were saying this was going to be the case years ago when people first started pushing for closer releases.  Now the console players get to see the mess that major releases generally are...and it's looking like an enlightening experience on both sides.

Still better than waiting a month or more just to get an update or patchfix out on consoles.

I’m still waiting for fixes on Telos Boltace for years, but I’m not lumping the Deimos fix requests on that forgotten can of worms.

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Can we talk about the fact that the tiametrite (the pink gem) has currently no use ? No BP requires any faceted tiametrite...

Adding 10 minerals to the game is cool and all but if the tiametrite's only use is to dilute the drop tables i'd rather not add it. The same goes for the purged dagonic (the orange one) which only has one use (according to the wiki).

And btw those are the two most common gems.

Edited by Lecornflake
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3 hours ago, Valfaun said:

Scintillant rates still feel off... it's meant to be a common drop from T2 bounties, but feels a lot like a rare

So....I'm going to be generous and state that DE has made an error.

Those less generous will call this utter crap, and they aren't off.

 

What is the rate of drop for Scintillant?  Well, let's check the website https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html#deimosRewards

 

The drops are as follows:

(5-15) 2.01% in stage 4 of 5.

(5-15) 8.33% in final stage.

(15-25) 7.5% in stage 1.

(15-25) 3.75% in stage 2, 3 of 4, and 3 of 5.

(15-25) 3.0% in stage 4 of 5.

 

That's listed as a common drop, and the drop chances are all sub 10%.  Ironically, the "rare" drops all exceed 7%....so it's more likely to get a "rare" item than a "common" one.  Short answer, DE called it common and once they finally updated the drop tables it's turning out to be absolutely not common.  A quick fix would be to change it to being rare....a better fix would be to remove so much of the garbage from the drop tables and make the rare items actually rare.

Now, let's look at the practical up-shot.  In one tier 5 bounty I got 2 Quassus blue prints and a Xaku Chassis blue print.  Rare, rare, and uncommon.  In a dozen runs of tier 2 I've never seen one drop.  That points to us calling out DE, and suggesting that the definition of that word is not what they think it means.  Cue Princess Bride movie quotation, and anecdotal burn for incompetence or straight up lying.  Either way, shenanigans.

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Pats on the head:

I think that it was very creative to have you trade various resources with different family members in order to get coins to trade in for standing. Whether you like doing bounties, mining, saving animals, fishing, or looting the enemies and various surroundings, there is an easy and reliable way for you to rank up.

Things to Look Into:

In order for you to build most of the new weapons, you have to build the individual parts like warframe pieces. It seems like the only reason why this exists is so that there is a reason to farm the new resources. This is bearable for something like the new infested pistol, but the new claw weapons need two blades, two gauntlets, and the main blueprint. That means that you will need go farm the resources, build the gauntlets and blades which will take a combined time of 24 hours, and then the main blueprint takes another 24 hours. That's two days for one weapon. To fix this, the parts should take 6 hours to build at most. Then it would seem more fair.

Speaking of weapons, the Newest Warfan that you get from the Tier 4 bounty, the two Entrati weapons you get from the Syndicate Weapons Merchant, and the Sacrifice cost to rank up from Friend to Family needs a resource called Seriglass Shards. The only way to get a shard is by giving 20 rare tokens to the Ticker equivalent of the Entrati syndicate. To get ONE token, you need to give up a total of 1,000 standing in the form of 2 tokens for the Conservation NPC, and 10 tokens from everyone else. The rare token needed to buy the shards are worth 1,500 standing. So in order to buy 4 shards for the 3 weapons and the rank up sacrifice, you need to spend 80,000 potential standing in the form of other syndicate tokens, or 120,000 if you wanted to sell the Rare tokens for standing instead. This needs to be reduced to a more tolerable level. One Seriglass Shard should be reduced to 5 rare tokens instead of 20. However, an alternative is to reduce the price to 10 rare tokens, but make them available from the brand of endless bounties that you can do in the Cambion Drift so acquisition can be more skill based.

Edited by (XB1)HollowCube987
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The more and more I play I feel that the Necraloid Syndicate should have included the Necramech mods as purchasable rewards. Personally I think it would have been a good use of standing and prevented typical trade inflation. This feels like if K drives had mods exclusive to races, granted vaults are very useful it just follows in line with how the Tenebrous ephemera, and several other items launched at base. There's currently no way for players to progress without RNG even though they could have killed countless Necramechs

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The funny thing about guides like: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/ikmal5/helminth_feeding_guide_to_nonbankruptcy/

which claim to not understand people's complaints about the system is that they actually confirm all the complaints about the system. The guides tell you to simply not spend any but the cheapest and most efficient resources and ignore the rest. That basically confirms that yea, the cost for many of the resources is not balanced and is completely insane, which is exactly what prompted the mass of complaints. 

edit: meant to put that in the helminth thread 🤷‍♂️

 

Edited by Borg1611
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There is currently no reason for me to max this syndicate. Other than a captura (yawn) and a trophy (people want these?), there is literally nothing that requires the ranking of Family. I guess it does mean I no longer need to trade in Granny's tokens for standing. But other than that, there's nothing. I'm sure there will be things added (dear god I hope).

Can't get Helminth from Market. Not sure why, other than forcing players to play the Camaron Drift (serious, you look at Deimos and tell me that's not a shrimp.) plz fix so u can get $$$

Common Avichaea token requirement is just obscene. The darn things don't even spawn correctly. I had to enter, hope more than one would spawn with the Echo Lure, and frustratedly sigh whenever the only one that popped up was Cranium Magna. Side note, shouldn't it be Cranium Magnum? Anyway, the avichaea nest is in the floor of the big head, but the actual "bird" spawns at either the top of the structure or somewhere in the middle, possibly clipping into the wall. 

The focus on conservation as a rank-up requirement is really weird, too. It really feels like whoever was the team lead on this was really proud of it for whatever reason, and so even after drastically dialing back the requirements, everything still feels a bit too skewed towards Son. Let me hang out with Daughter and Father more. 

The Pillars out in the drift are very poorly explained. Kinda cool, but I wish there was a transmission that was like "Oh, that's the Netra pillar. Shoot it with your amp, then kill stuff with your amp to get stuff."

Endless bounties are the worst. Let me leave like an endless mission. I had to sit in the antechamber for like five minutes while the other player was still wandering around aimlessly.

The "leave mission" area of the antechamber doesn't extend all the way to the door, for whatever reason. Just make the circle bigger and center it further back. Otherwise you end up with some dope who keeps running around, leaping out of the circle, resetting the "leave" timer.

Switch specific: Framerates in multiplayer are... unplayable. It really becomes a slideshow, and I hope a few more optimizations are made.

Bounties. Latrox Une's sample bounty is confusing, and doesn't really tell you what to do, and I really don't understand how the bonus is reached. I mean, I understand that enemies will periodically drop samples, but half the time I'm just waiting for enemies to even show up. Grav is at least "kill more stuff so he doesn't gloat like a chump," but also has spawn problems. I really do like the tumor killer bounties, though.

The drop "ships" are a bit too durable for my taste, but I'm also not running optimal setups for dealing with them. I like their effects, though.

The new weapons are pretty cool. 👍

I love the aesthetic of the new area, but Necromechs need a little more customization. Granted, I have a long love of Armored Core, so I wish it was a bit more like that, but I think what we got is what we got. Shame, as I'd love to have modular mechs.

All in all, I like this, but the grind is a little too real. I mean, it's not Animal Crossing, but there's a little bit too much hunting for birds and fish. I kind of like the changes to rep gain, but the actual advancement costs are just a bit too high. Once you get to level 4, there's not much to do, and the content that IS there is not exactly enthralling enough to keep me going. It's almost there, though, so keep it up!

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I want to say that I like the token system. We can play bounties and stack tokens up even after reaching our standing cap. This gives incentive for playing after you reach the cap at least. The next day, I can just turn in those tokens to get my next cap/rank instantly. This is a quality of life improvement for standing I appreciate and hope to see continue... until a progression system better than standing is introduced, but that's another thread.

I do agree that forcing fishing and conversation was a bad choice for main game progression. Luckily, depending on how you look at it, I was able to use a reasonable amount of plat to skip this content that I do not wish to play.

Edited by (PS4)FatMacBrbn
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Okay so having spent many hours pushing to rank 3 and only 12k standing away from Rank 4, I really don't like how Son Tokens wreck the economy in Deimos. I get that you guys wanted the meta to change from PoE/Fortuna to what it is in Deimos. In PoE, fishing and Mining was the most effective for pure standing gain. In Fortuna, Conservation was the most effective method for pure standing gain. Most only ran bounties for what was in the reward tables. Mother Tokens being rewards for Bounties seems to have improved the value of bounties because running bounties past your daily cap does not waste standing. That's all cool.

But I just don't understand why the return on standing for Fishing, Mining, and ESPECIALLY conservation had to be nerfed so hard. Because of the random nature of what tokens cost from Daughter/Otak/Sun it looks like most times it's not worth trading in the materials to get that Token. For example: Rare PoE/Fortuna gems could simply be turned in for 1k standing and that was great but a rare Deimos gem not only can't be turned in for 1k standing, you have to be sure you have 3 other minerals with it and this exchange has a time limit that if you don't meet then the cost for that 3-5 Otak token pack is randomized again.

This is made even worse for Son Tokens. Many times his tokens cost 2-4 Velocipod Tags of some random color and there is no lure to get that velocipod. I am at the mercy of RNG to just roam Deimos and hope I find the color velocipod I need. And then hope I find them in time to go back to the Neckrelisk and buy that token pack before the timer expires. That literally pushes me to tranq any velocipod I see. So yeah, screw riding it Hell, forget even doing the bounty objective because I will put that on pause for catching a Velocipod because I never know when I will need that tag.

Speaking of tags, why is it that Deimos forces you to choose either the Floofs or standing? Either I trade the tags for Tokens so I can get standing or I trade the tags for floofs. PoE/Fortuna did not force this choice on you. You could straight get the standing for the capture and keep the tags to trade in for Floofs later. Capturing a animal on Deimos should give you Son Tokens directly. Even if that means you reduce the value of Son Tokens to 50. A perfect Capture 4-6 Son tokens depending on the animal while a bad capture should give you 1-3 Son Tokens depending on the animal. Conservation itself is already painful on Deimos because of the color palette of the world makes finding purple tracks an eye sore. But because of how Son Tokens are implemented, I don't plan on engaging with Conservation on Deimos after I get all six pets. I enjoyed getting all the floofs from PoE/Fortuna but not Deimos. How Son Tokens are handled left a bad taste.

Ticker's system for Debt Bounds was far better implemented because it was a side thing you could do for standing if you absolutely couldn't afford time to Fortuna that day and you have extra resources lying around.  Ticker requiring random resources from all parts of the syndicate was cool, especially because he would even take non Fortuna resources. The random cost and time gates for getting Entrati Tokens really only make it so Father and Mother are the only ones worth farming for to trade in for standing. Using Daughter and Otak tokens for standing is a terrible idea and using Son Tokens for standing is a complete rip off.

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3 hours ago, (NSW)Electropuncher said:

There is currently no reason for me to max this syndicate. Other than a captura (yawn) and a trophy (people want these?), there is literally nothing that requires the ranking of Family. I guess it does mean I no longer need to trade in Granny's tokens for standing. But other than that, there's nothing. I'm sure there will be things added (dear god I hope).

 

Theres the hidden lore podiums after reaching max in both Entrati/Necroloid :)
Chances are gonna need to max both for whatever grand boss is planned for Deimos too.

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I think this response should be prefaced by highlighting something I've said in one of my previous responses to you:

On 2020-08-31 at 7:19 AM, shootaman777 said:

2) I've been back on PoE since Conservation launched. For a while, using the organically spawned conservations was the best way to obtain rep with the Ostrons, until DE stealthily nerfed out the best place for farming them. I miss the reliability of the triple Kuaka spawn by the beached shark. I just never knew that it was referred to as 'organic' spawns until 3 hours ago, since I avoid DE media, where they do little but make false promises on things like devstreams and the forums.

I'm not evaluating the current content based on what DE said, promised, showed off at Tennocon or in a Devstream, etc. I'm evaluating the current content based on what it is, not what it was 'hyped/sold as' or 'supposed to be'. So when you say things along the lines of these, I have absolutely zero context due to not having seen much in the way of DE media:

On 2020-08-31 at 10:12 PM, master_of_destiny said:

1) The token system was sold to us as [a] way to prevent losses of standing, and allow for infinite gains. 

 

2) The point of installing those time gates was to force player engagement and decrease rewards. 

 

3) That's not how it worked.  Creators used to generally get the new content day 1 for testing. That wasn't primes or drops, it was frames and weapons. It wasn't everything, it was just a leg up and not having grind.

The new program...who knows.  Based upon the terms it'll basically be the same. If you're a captura artist you've got to grind like everyone else.  The up-side would be the Grendel/Harrow grinds wouldn't be necessary, but that's an entirely different bit of crazy.

 

4) As such, the point here is that this syndicate launched too early. It's not fun, but it was the way they justified having mechs. DE promised mechs, and their launch state is a grind wall.  

1) Mother tokens are exactly this. They prevent losses of standing from doing more than 3 bounties per day, and allow for infinite gains (bounded over time by a daily cap, of course) within a short period of time. Those are the only great tokens - Mother tokens.
 

2) To me, it does not seem that the intent was to increase player engagement, as it has only decreased mine. I haven't played any Deimos content since day 3, only occasionally popping back into the Necralisk to buy Father/Son/Otak/Grandmother tokens or turn in Grandmother/Mother tokens and Orokin Matrices for daily rep.

Additionally, the rewards are not all 'decreased', per se. The rep turn-in for Deimos Conservation seems low, yes. But Conservation/Mining becoming a part of bounties (since a lot of the bounties involve standing around and waiting) means that bounties have become even more rewarding. And since both Conservation and Mining are affected by resource boosters, it's an even larger increase to bounty rewards.

If you look at Deimos Conservation as an isolated, singular system, then it's very clearly bad. It's bad (inefficient) as a standalone rep grind, the token prices/RNG/timegating is obnoxious, and making floofs cost the same currency as tokens makes floofs detrimental to acquire. Put it in context as an addition to bounties, on the other hand, and all of a sudden it is a bonus system, and comes with the connotation of 'good'.

 

3) I'll take your word for it, since I've only heard it vaguely referenced before.
Also, unpopular opinion, but I liked the Grendel missions. Guaranteed drops for each piece, which makes it not even a grind. Unable to use mods or Operator Focus to make a single Warframe take the role of an entire team? That was fantastic - I had a valid reason to dust off my Trinity because people needed a dedicated support Warframe, for once. I joined a lot of Grendel missions beyond what I needed to do for my own Grendel. It reminded me of old Warframe, where people recruited supports and damage buffers.
The Harrow grind, on the other hand? After I ran almost 2 consecutive full days of Defection in the Pacifism Defect event to help carry my clan to the Ignis Wraith, having to run another 40 hours of Defection for the systems was hellish. I almost sold my Oberon Prime out of spite, after that grind. The Kuva Fortress Spy wasn't so bad, even if it took about 20 hours to obtain, since Spy is relaxing and I could watch shows/movies and read while doing the missions. But to grind 60 hours for two pieces of a Warframe? YIKES.

 

4) I wouldn't say that the syndicate launched too early, provided that we receive the remainder of what was originally planned for this syndicate, in a relatively timely manner. It's the same as the update DE released earlier in August, the one with the shi77y UI rework - not putting all the trash in one place so that players can handle giving feedback bit by bit, and DE has time to address one thing at a time. Let's face it - DE is tonedeaf to their players and what they want to see, in terms of content. It takes a mountain of feedback after DE releases an update to finally get the content changed to something the community is willing to stomach, let alone accept as 'decent'. But at least this way, releasing things slowly, updates can be rendered 'decent' over time. If the UI rework had been introduced on the 25th with Deimos, I can say for certain that I'd have given day 1 feedback on the garbage UI, then quit the game for months. At least the UI is bearable now, even if it still is far inferior to what it was pre-rework.

In this case, DE is introducing the core of an update and fixing it, then building on that improved core and fixing the additions, then building on those fixed additions. The UI rework update, the Heart of Deimos launch, and then whatever will come next (I've read on the forums about Infested Kitguns and another Mech, so far). Is DE still making plenty of mistakes that make us scratch our heads and wonder how they ever thought certain things would be alright with the playerbase? Yes, yes they are. But at least they're implementing those things in a way that lets us help correct them one by one, rather than 'drop big update' and have overwhelming 'content bad, DE bad' feedback.

 

Now, to address the remainder of your response:

On 2020-08-31 at 10:12 PM, master_of_destiny said:

1) Let me put this very simply, you are trying to change the goals.  The token system was sold to us as [a] way to prevent losses of standing, and allow for infinite gains.  Your argument is that only the most efficient means of gaining standing should exist.  Two completely separate arguments.

Now, let's come to amicable terms.  It is most likely that people will chose the most efficient farm, fine.  That is not the case with the side systems (fishing, conservation, and mining), because some people utterly hate them.  The goal should therefore be that all side systems are roughly as rewarding as each other.  If that is the goal, Deimos has failed dramatically in providing.  They have made conservation marginally rewarding, mining less rewarding, and fishing less rewarding.  These activities are actually required through the progression of the open world unlike before. 

This means that net influence, regarding the economy, is that it's a step back.   It isn't giving us anything new, and it's price is shockingly high in grindy RNG mechanics.  This is all despite implementing the reactive towers which can drop plenty of resources on kills, isolation vault resource caches, and what seems to be good RNG spawning of animals for conservation without the need for the tracking process.  In short, a step forward and three back.
 

Regarding an economy of grind....there's two versions.  Good grind is something like focus.  Small initial goals, larger goals as you go, and completion via something you already want to do (earn affinity).  Bad grind is very low percentage drops, an endless activity which forces a single type of engagement, and lackluster rewards.  My go-to example is the Braton Vandal.  That's the difference.  Grind is not bad, when rewards are good enough to justify it.  
 

 

2) The point of installing those time gates was to force player engagement and decrease rewards.  If that's not obvious, consider that they extended the timer on one of the events already.  Given that vaults have by far the largest density of mineral deposits, I get it.  At the same time let's project a little farther into the future.  A future without resource boosters, and one where the vault runs are forgotten and basically require you run them solo.  I say all of this because at this time I have everything but the mods, and I don't think I'm going to continue running it because it's a 10-15 minute time gate amounting to about 40 minutes for the worst token count.  It's high on resources....but there's no content to spend it on.  This is the future of many players.

Now, remove the ability to have your team kill for you and mine.  Remove the ability to simply allow someone else to engage with the forced waits.  What is left?  You've taken away all the cherries of other things to do.  I'd argue that this is the reason for the garbage relic inclusion, under the auspices of "evergreen" content.  I'd argue this is why Scintillant is listed as a "common" drop but it's literally the rarest reward (like sub 8%).  That little diversion is just not enough, and the rewards aren't even great.

Regarding the Helminth....it's my worst fears.  Useful data is obfuscated so it's a roll of the dice what powers use what resources.  It takes level 8 to fix things if you go below green, which is a permanent penalty until you reach a high level.  Moreover, the abilities themselves have been underwhelming.  I'm feeding it daily, subsuming, and then ignoring so as to not lose the bonus given the terrifyingly bad Bile economy and heavy railjack resource requirements.  It's another huge grind, with limited rewards, where grinding it effectively kills your ability to grind efficiently.  Ouch.
 

 

4) I'd like to review everything in-depth, but erased the long explanation.  The nuts and bolts here is that mechs are available to grind day 1, there's only 1, and we can already earn 21000 standing in about 40 minutes (double with a booster).  As such, the point here is that this syndicate launched too early.  It's not fun, but it was the way they justified having mechs.  It was a stupid decision, as by the time the actual quests came about for PoE and Fortuna (Profit-Taker and Tri-dolon respectively) there was content to aspire to having.  DE promised mechs, and their launch state is a grind wall.   Onkko and Little Duck soft launched to allow extreme grinding, but by the time they really launched it wasn't two pieces of content dragged out to 9 purchases to pad grind.

The counter argument here is that at one point you bought arcane blue prints, then had to grind for crafting materials.  Being fair, that was garbage.  At the same time, the economy did change.  DE side-stepped that with this update by simply stretching content.  I believe anything but damnation for this practice is misplaced.  What I read was acceptance, with the acknowledgement of it being not ideal.  That's something I take umbrage with, because it's how content dies.

1) I was unaware that we were not speaking amicably. Either I've missed an insult somewhere, or something I've written implies insult. Implying insult is not what I intended to do at any point - I was writing down whatever came to mind.

As I stated earlier, DE accomplished that goal, exclusively with Mother tokens.

I did not argue that 'only the most efficient means of gaining standing should exist'. I stated that only the most efficient means of grinding for a particular thing, is the means that one should use to grind for that particular thing. That was what 'for the purposes of efficient grinding, only __ exists' implies - don't consider using other options when a best one exists. Other options can (and probably should, for variety's sake) exist, but as long as we have the best option, why worry about other ones?

It does not matter how much rep a second-tier option offers, as it is ignored for the purpose of grinding rep. Could it give more rep? Certainly. Will that matter unless it gives as much rep as the 'most efficient' option? No, it will not.

Should Deimos Conservation give more rep? Maybe, maybe not, but more reward for the same effort is not usually considered a bad thing in a grind game, so I'm not opposed to the idea.
Should Fortuna fishing give more rep? If we were to bring it up to snuff with Fortuna mining or resource booster Profittaker, yes. But anything short of that would be pointless, as it would not entice me to engage in Fortuna fishing.

Focus is not a good grind by any stretch of the imagination. Proof of this, is that I have 5 Equinoxes and 5 Atteraxes - one for each school of focus. The Atteraxes have 3 forma each and Equinoxes cost a Forma each to craft. That's 20 Forma I had to sink into the Focus system because DE still has not learned from the Syndicate system. The lesson being, to have a button to 'represent' the player's Syndicate of choice, rather than forcing the player use an invisible sigil. To select a school of Focus to 'represent', rather than force a meaningless lens grind. Back when I grinded Focus, Eidolons did not exist, ESO did not exist, better lenses did not exist, convergence orbs did not exist (plus, they spawned across the world and had a lower multiplier), and the daily cap was lower (started at 75k, then was 100k, then was 250k, now can scale above 250k based on MR). On top of that, all the good parts of focus were subject to nerfs and the bad parts were never buffed into relevancy. Grind with little to no reward at the end, is not good grind.

The Braton Vandal grind, on the other hand, is a perfectly good grind. The reason being that the main reward of ESO is affinity, while the Braton Vandal is the cherry on top. If, at the end of maxing every weapon and focus node, the player still does not have the Braton Vandal, then (and only then) it becomes a bad grind. Since new gear comes out every so often, it will not usually be the case that the Braton Vandal becomes a bad grind since ESO is the most convenient/efficient place to max that gear.

 

2) As I stated earlier, the token system has not increased my engagement with the new content, but rather decreased it. A future without resource boosters is not something worth considering, since I would not be engaging in the Iso Vault bounties without one. I make enough plat in occasional trades to fund constant double resource boosters (200 each for month long drop and drop chance boosters).

I already mostly AFK the Triso Vaults solo while mining and conserving, so there wouldn't be much of a difference (at least, not to me). If anything, extending the timers of the early stages of Iso Vault bounties has only made them more rewarding for me (yes, still slightly longer). I'm not going to explain how I do so in case DE decides to pull out the nerfhammer because something was too good at their new content, and rather than fixing the content or letting us have nice things they decide to start swinging first/asking questions later (looking at you, Khora and Limbo, victims of Scarlet Spear).

The only bounties I 'engage' in are the non-Vault bounties, because those have objectives other than 'wait here while X happens'. To me, even though making Iso Vaults longer was a big middle finger from DE to the players, the extra time requirement per stage allows me to hit all the mining nodes before moving onto the next area. Granted, it's a silver lining, but not a horrible one at the very least.

The Helminth is timegate simulator. Nothing more, nothing less. The resource requirements are fine, as long as you're fine waiting multiple days to fill up a single category. Bile is designed to keep players from being able to ignore the timegate without mind-boggling amounts of grind. But at least excess Argon Crystals now have a purpose other than decaying.

 

4) I'm just annoyed that the build costs for my Quills Arcanes (double sets of all Operator Arcanes, single sets of all Amp arcanes) were never refunded, since now everyone else doesn't have to craft them... meaning I've effectively wasted all those resources and all that time. Still annoyed about that, in case you couldn't tell. All those bait-specific fish I could've turned in for Ostron rep instead of melting down for parts to craft Quills Arcanes... All those gems I could've turned in for rep instead... All that Nyth and Sentirum I turned into Heart Nyth and Radian Sentirum (I currently still have about 200 of each crafted gem), wasted.

Plains of Eidolon wasn't really a soft launch. Almost everything was there at the start, since DE wanted to make their 'new big thing' release looking like a finished product. After some economy changes, it really did look like one. You could grind the entirety of the Quills faction out with the Teralyst alone, since Eidolon Shards dropped from it and those were the rank up requirements. Back in those days, 7 Teralysts per night was considered 'good', solo. Let me stop here before I go on a nostalgia trip, because it keeps happening every time I try to add more to this part.

I disagree that DE stretched content, here. We can all see how little content there is, and that's why the grind for all of the content is short. The faction grind is the only thing that takes time, and that's because of daily rep caps. I give Deimos 2 weeks at most before it's dead and becomes a 'grind to t3 Entrati for Helminth' place for future players, with how little content there currently is.

 

EDIT: Also, it's not 3 Seriglass Shards to grind, anymore. Now it's 4, since one of the rank up requirements to rank 5 of Entrati is a Seriglass Shard.

Edited by shootaman777
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This was a clusterF***, in the long run, the syndicate and resources are fine, but forcing so much of the content on the players right away was a big mistake. I could have seen a Necramech quest after reaching the Necralisk, and the amount of convoluted resources thrust into every aspect is mind boggling. It's good enough to put strange resource requirements in the foundry, making an entire open world revolve around resourcing was obnoxious at best.

Most importantly, whose playtesting and reviewing playtest?, they failed. So much beautiful content marred by terrible flow is a shame. 

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I like what you did with the resource beeing semi random in containers and stuff, however some fish materials and minerals are imho a bit imbalanced number wise, some are rarer and needed in bigger numbers

The tokens are overall a big success, except maybe few inconsistencies on mineral and fish items distribution it seems an upgrade over the old systems. Maybe a good work around would be to provide permanent trade options, so people who want for example son tokens can reliably farm something for longer gametime but have their tokens. The grandmother mechanics are a complete success imho

I don't understand the tough process behind vome and fass residues, yes it looks cool looting infested boss parts but it's dull as hell

I think that the necramech standing should be updated asap, we are a majority of active players having it caped already while mods are pain to grind(maybe put the mods there too)

Overall except the day 1 offerings, the scintillants blunder and the necramech mods galore(look at warframe market, some parents will get their credit card stolen because of you) it's all fine and dandy.

Weapons, Mech and Xaku are a bit painfull to farm(but not horrible), it's normal in a F2P game and the companions are extremly easy to build

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This system for standing is very refreshing since we already had the same system recycled (with some novelty) for fortuna. Given the token are such a central piece of this new syndicat, it feels clunky to go buy those token one by one, and have the NPC say a line every time we do a trade. But overall it's a nice way of keeping the grind fresh and not forcing into a single, or few, specific farms. Multiple ways for mother tokens, added value to token through grandmother, it all felt more rewarding than just running the highest tier bounty until daily cap. Having a way to store futur standing outside of fishing/mining is also very much welcome. Also, seeing how much token we get per trade without mouse-over is neat.

A few informations/thoughts about the trading with Entarti members before I conclude:

-We have to do a lot of trading with the NPCs to move forward in the Entrati

-Most of the time we will do multiple trades by session (like when I visit Father, I most likely will buy him out )

-Players will most likely do multiple trade session with all, or almost, members of the Entrati, multiple times, either daily or weekly. (Visiting NPCs multiple times)

-Most player will check the requirement for each token trade, thus will know the price of said token.

 

Given all that, I wish and propose we have a way of "bulk purchase", since we already check the prices of token trades, we could left click to select the trade we want, adding it on the right side of the screen in some sort of "online shopping cart but for Entrati tokens" that we could then pay for and bypass the (nice looking) "thanks for your purchase" logo that pops up every time and makes the whole trading system sluggish.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

I think this response should be prefaced by highlighting something I've said in one of my previous responses to you:

I'm not evaluating the current content based on what DE said, promised, showed off at Tennocon or in a Devstream, etc. I'm evaluating the current content based on what it is, not what it was 'hyped/sold as' or 'supposed to be'. So when you say things along the lines of these, I have absolutely zero context due to not having seen much in the way of DE media:

1) Mother tokens are exactly this. They prevent losses of standing from doing more than 3 bounties per day, and allow for infinite gains (bounded over time by a daily cap, of course) within a short period of time. Those are the only great tokens - Mother tokens.
 

2) To me, it does not seem that the intent was to increase player engagement, as it has only decreased mine. I haven't played any Deimos content since day 3, only occasionally popping back into the Necralisk to buy Father/Son/Otak/Grandmother tokens or turn in Grandmother/Mother tokens and Orokin Matrices for daily rep.

Additionally, the rewards are not all 'decreased', per se. The rep turn-in for Deimos Conservation seems low, yes. But Conservation/Mining becoming a part of bounties (since a lot of the bounties involve standing around and waiting) means that bounties have become even more rewarding. And since both Conservation and Mining are affected by resource boosters, it's an even larger increase to bounty rewards.

If you look at Deimos Conservation as an isolated, singular system, then it's very clearly bad. It's bad (inefficient) as a standalone rep grind, the token prices/RNG/timegating is obnoxious, and making floofs cost the same currency as tokens makes floofs detrimental to acquire. Put it in context as an addition to bounties, on the other hand, and all of a sudden it is a bonus system, and comes with the connotation of 'good'.

 

3) I'll take your word for it, since I've only heard it vaguely referenced before.
Also, unpopular opinion, but I liked the Grendel missions. Guaranteed drops for each piece, which makes it not even a grind. Unable to use mods or Operator Focus to make a single Warframe take the role of an entire team? That was fantastic - I had a valid reason to dust off my Trinity because people needed a dedicated support Warframe, for once. I joined a lot of Grendel missions beyond what I needed to do for my own Grendel. It reminded me of old Warframe, where people recruited supports and damage buffers.
The Harrow grind, on the other hand? After I ran almost 2 consecutive full days of Defection in the Pacifism Defect event to help carry my clan to the Ignis Wraith, having to run another 40 hours of Defection for the systems was hellish. I almost sold my Oberon Prime out of spite, after that grind. The Kuva Fortress Spy wasn't so bad, even if it took about 20 hours to obtain, since Spy is relaxing and I could watch shows/movies and read while doing the missions. But to grind 60 hours for two pieces of a Warframe? YIKES.

 

4) I wouldn't say that the syndicate launched too early, provided that we receive the remainder of what was originally planned for this syndicate, in a relatively timely manner. It's the same as the update DE released earlier in August, the one with the shi77y UI rework - not putting all the trash in one place so that players can handle giving feedback bit by bit, and DE has time to address one thing at a time. Let's face it - DE is tonedeaf to their players and what they want to see, in terms of content. It takes a mountain of feedback after DE releases an update to finally get the content changed to something the community is willing to stomach, let alone accept as 'decent'. But at least this way, releasing things slowly, updates can be rendered 'decent' over time. If the UI rework had been introduced on the 25th with Deimos, I can say for certain that I'd have given day 1 feedback on the garbage UI, then quit the game for months. At least the UI is bearable now, even if it still is far inferior to what it was pre-rework.

In this case, DE is introducing the core of an update and fixing it, then building on that improved core and fixing the additions, then building on those fixed additions. The UI rework update, the Heart of Deimos launch, and then whatever will come next (I've read on the forums about Infested Kitguns and another Mech, so far). Is DE still making plenty of mistakes that make us scratch our heads and wonder how they ever thought certain things would be alright with the playerbase? Yes, yes they are. But at least they're implementing those things in a way that lets us help correct them one by one, rather than 'drop big update' and have overwhelming 'content bad, DE bad' feedback.

 

Now, to address the remainder of your response:

1) I was unaware that we were not speaking amicably. Either I've missed an insult somewhere, or something I've written implies insult. Implying insult is not what I intended to do at any point - I was writing down whatever came to mind.

As I stated earlier, DE accomplished that goal, exclusively with Mother tokens.

I did not argue that 'only the most efficient means of gaining standing should exist'. I stated that only the most efficient means of grinding for a particular thing, is the means that one should use to grind for that particular thing. That was what 'for the purposes of efficient grinding, only __ exists' implies - don't consider using other options when a best one exists. Other options can (and probably should, for variety's sake) exist, but as long as we have the best option, why worry about other ones?

It does not matter how much rep a second-tier option offers, as it is ignored for the purpose of grinding rep. Could it give more rep? Certainly. Will that matter unless it gives as much rep as the 'most efficient' option? No, it will not.

Should Deimos Conservation give more rep? Maybe, maybe not, but more reward for the same effort is not usually considered a bad thing in a grind game, so I'm not opposed to the idea.
Should Fortuna fishing give more rep? If we were to bring it up to snuff with Fortuna mining or resource booster Profittaker, yes. But anything short of that would be pointless, as it would not entice me to engage in Fortuna fishing.

Focus is not a good grind by any stretch of the imagination. Proof of this, is that I have 5 Equinoxes and 5 Atteraxes - one for each school of focus. The Atteraxes have 3 forma each and Equinoxes cost a Forma each to craft. That's 20 Forma I had to sink into the Focus system because DE still has not learned from the Syndicate system. The lesson being, to have a button to 'represent' the player's Syndicate of choice, rather than forcing the player use an invisible sigil. To select a school of Focus to 'represent', rather than force a meaningless lens grind. Back when I grinded Focus, Eidolons did not exist, ESO did not exist, better lenses did not exist, convergence orbs did not exist (plus, they spawned across the world and had a lower multiplier), and the daily cap was lower (started at 75k, then was 100k, then was 250k, now can scale above 250k based on MR). On top of that, all the good parts of focus were subject to nerfs and the bad parts were never buffed into relevancy. Grind with little to no reward at the end, is not good grind.

The Braton Vandal grind, on the other hand, is a perfectly good grind. The reason being that the main reward of ESO is affinity, while the Braton Vandal is the cherry on top. If, at the end of maxing every weapon and focus node, the player still does not have the Braton Vandal, then (and only then) it becomes a bad grind. Since new gear comes out every so often, it will not usually be the case that the Braton Vandal becomes a bad grind since ESO is the most convenient/efficient place to max that gear.

 

2) As I stated earlier, the token system has not increased my engagement with the new content, but rather decreased it. A future without resource boosters is not something worth considering, since I would not be engaging in the Iso Vault bounties without one. I make enough plat in occasional trades to fund constant double resource boosters (200 each for month long drop and drop chance boosters).

I already mostly AFK the Triso Vaults solo while mining and conserving, so there wouldn't be much of a difference (at least, not to me). If anything, extending the timers of the early stages of Iso Vault bounties has only made them more rewarding for me (yes, still slightly longer). I'm not going to explain how I do so in case DE decides to pull out the nerfhammer because something was too good at their new content, and rather than fixing the content or letting us have nice things they decide to start swinging first/asking questions later (looking at you, Khora and Limbo, victims of Scarlet Spear).

The only bounties I 'engage' in are the non-Vault bounties, because those have objectives other than 'wait here while X happens'. To me, even though making Iso Vaults longer was a big middle finger from DE to the players, the extra time requirement per stage allows me to hit all the mining nodes before moving onto the next area. Granted, it's a silver lining, but not a horrible one at the very least.

The Helminth is timegate simulator. Nothing more, nothing less. The resource requirements are fine, as long as you're fine waiting multiple days to fill up a single category. Bile is designed to keep players from being able to ignore the timegate without mind-boggling amounts of grind. But at least excess Argon Crystals now have a purpose other than decaying.

 

4) I'm just annoyed that the build costs for my Quills Arcanes (double sets of all Operator Arcanes, single sets of all Amp arcanes) were never refunded, since now everyone else doesn't have to craft them... meaning I've effectively wasted all those resources and all that time. Still annoyed about that, in case you couldn't tell. All those bait-specific fish I could've turned in for Ostron rep instead of melting down for parts to craft Quills Arcanes... All those gems I could've turned in for rep instead... All that Nyth and Sentirum I turned into Heart Nyth and Radian Sentirum (I currently still have about 200 of each crafted gem), wasted.

Plains of Eidolon wasn't really a soft launch. Almost everything was there at the start, since DE wanted to make their 'new big thing' release looking like a finished product. After some economy changes, it really did look like one. You could grind the entirety of the Quills faction out with the Teralyst alone, since Eidolon Shards dropped from it and those were the rank up requirements. Back in those days, 7 Teralysts per night was considered 'good', solo. Let me stop here before I go on a nostalgia trip, because it keeps happening every time I try to add more to this part.

I disagree that DE stretched content, here. We can all see how little content there is, and that's why the grind for all of the content is short. The faction grind is the only thing that takes time, and that's because of daily rep caps. I give Deimos 2 weeks at most before it's dead and becomes a 'grind to t3 Entrati for Helminth' place for future players, with how little content there currently is.

 

EDIT: Also, it's not 3 Seriglass Shards to grind, anymore. Now it's 4, since one of the rank up requirements to rank 5 of Entrati is a Seriglass Shard.

Shortening responses to points, as by now this has become long enough.

  1. Ignorance to promises is not to be lauded.  I appreciate you don't engage with their media, but it's how they talk to us.  If we let them promise the moon, and deliver none of that, then we'll never get good content.  Case in point, railjack.  
  2. Mother tokens, as stated before, are the only grind upgrade.  They allow infinite bounty grind.  They are not the issue, it's the devaluation of everything else and the miserable grind that is a problem.
  3. I already did the math, but let's refresh.  Mining specifically.  One non-rare mineral is about 50 standing on PoE.  On Deimos it can cost 10 minerals to get a token work 100 standing.  50>10.  Likewise, fish on PoE produce hundreds of standing.  On Deimos a single coin requires several fish to be cut for resources, and the coin is still 100 standing.  Hence, devaluation.
  4. The argument that boosters make it easier is stupid.  It's stating "I can pay DE to make their intentionally grindy system less so."  It's buying a solution to a problem they made.  I see why people do it, but rewarding that is not good for future content.
  5. Conservation isn't just bad, it's bad and required for content.  Due to tags being traded, instead of token being awarded directly, your ability to engage is entirely based on RNG for what is valued.  What was a nice diversion with cosmetics before (floofs) is now an expensive proposition.  I hate floofs, but pity those that like them because this open world spits in the face of players who do.  As someone who could care, I'm looking at 10k standing per gilded pet....and really asking why I should care after I get the MR.  Can't see a reason yet.
  6. Let's talk Grendel.  It was a 100% piece drop chance....but how.  You needed locators.  Locators cost Vitus Essence.  25 a pop in fact.  Vitus drops rarely in x3 packs, or singularly from drones.  Let's say you average about 2 essence for each round of the match (1 guaranteed, 1 drop), and do survival (for easier timing).  75/2 = 37.5 rewards cycles.  That's more than 175 minutes, or about 3 hours of grinding arbitrations.  The counter that a drop chance booster exists is again ignored.  I can see liking the mission itself, even if I don't.  What I cannot see is liking the expenditure of 3 solid hours of grinding to do these missions.  
  7. Harrow's grind sucks.  I will not argue.  The only alleviation is using a wisp.  The counter is that AI is stupid enough to regularly get stuck on terrain.  This should be addressed by DE...and whenever the prime comes out nobody will bother with rotation C of defections....or at least even less than they do now given that no other reward there justifies the headache.  
  8. There's a difference between releasing a core and building, and releasing things to meet a deadline.  Tennocon 2018 happened, and they sold the orb mothers along with railjack.  End of 2018....and we got Fortuna.  It was another bounty driven open world with the orb mothers completely non-interactive.  Some months later we get the Profit-Taker, with months after that seeing the Exploiter.  They didn't release Fortuna as a core, they released the copy paste of PoE and then bolted the promised components on.  We're back to the point where if DE kept their mouths closed, all of this would be impressive.  Unfortunately, promising the moon makes it way less so.
  9. DE is an entity.  They have limitations.  Instead of acknowledging this they promise things, extend releases, and deliver lackluster.  Let's look at Fortnite, because DE took Nighteave from them.  Seasons of Fortnite generally have mostly cosmetics as rewards...and Nightwave hides cosmetics and power.  They've taken a smaller studio's resources, and instead of expending artists at the issue they've required code monkeys too.  Why?  They choose to do things the hard way, when they don't have the resources.  That's not to be lauded, only to be admonished for lacking the ability to manage scope against ability.
  10. Regarding this discourse...coming to amicable terms is different from speaking amicably.  I don't agree with your assertions, you don't agree with mine, and I don't believe either of us has insulted the other.  If so, it was an error in my wording and I apologize as it was not the intent.  This said, amicable terms of understanding in this case is meant to basically be "agree to disagree" as we are talking in circles about issues we cannot fundamentally come to an agreement upon.
  11. The most efficient grind is what people will do if they want the thing, but if that efficient grind activity sucks they'll choose a thing that is more fun.  Case in point, it's easier to mine than to grind for dillute thermia, grind the Exploiter, and hope you get enough resources.  It's also not time gated to an event.  People choose the Exploiter because it's more shooty-shooty bang-bang.
  12. Let's talk about your theoretical.  As someone who has 5 Atteraxes....with 5 lenses....all forma'd for critical builds...I can explain the logic.  At one time it was 200k focus per day.  You banged that out in 4-5 runs of Adaro with a silence Banshee.  I now have all of that done, 10 million standing extra in each focus school, and enough eidolon shards for several million more for any school.  I started grinding not from the beginning, but years later.  I cannot speak to release state, but as of 3 years ago the state of focus was quite rewarding and worth it.
  13. Let's talk ESO.  I don't grind it for affinity, because I don't need it.  I didn't need it when I wanted the Braton Vandal, and the point was that a 2% drop rate for 20 minutes of doing mindless slaughtering of enemies is just not a great incentive.  The Braton Vandal is low tier assault rifle fodder, that required doing twice daily 20 minute runs for more than a month.  See above where you complain about Harrow's grind for some perspective.  The model here is simple, apply spores, swing melee, wait out the timer.  Not engaging, not rewarding me with the only content I desired, and the reward itself was only mastery rank given that the content was meh.
  14. I am looking at the future because it's functionally why DE structure rewards as such.  If you could bang out Harrow in 20 minutes it'd be fine, but there'd be no reason to go back and do content you don't enjoy or get good rewards for.   Disruption as a game mode is not absolutely unique, but it gets traffic because the rewards are great (guaranteed Axi relics).  Likewise, if Deimos is not rewarding it'll die like PoE and Fortuna did.  Not an abrupt death, but slow strangulation by having less player interaction and thus less reason to come back.  Your comments about not engaging with Deimos are telling.
  15. Helminth and Argon....oh boy.  Bought the booster from Baro.  Had 60+ argon crystals....and found them to be worth 3% at the minimum.  So, farm up three without the booster, or spend 30 of them to get the 30% maximum feeding bonus with patience.  I kind of feel like DE is slapping me in the face and calling me their pay pig.  I mean this as a joke, as I think we agree on the....issues inherent in the system.
  16. I engaged with the Eidolons solo to begin with, and found that collecting all of those fragments was a miserable way to progress.  That aside, the retiring of raids and introduction of the tri-dolon mission was what I view as the hard start of actual viability for the content.  Perhaps we just differ here, and I'm willing to accept that.
  17. Regarding the content stretch....this is kind of like the Lesion.  You build thing 1 and 2, combine to make 3, build thing 4, and combine 3 and 4 to make 5.  The thing is with Lesion all of these things were content.  With the mech it's grind for damaged parts, grind standing to buy blue print, build part, grind standing to level up, buy the blue print, build, wait 72 hours.  Let's compare it to the other item in the Necraloid faction.  I get the damaged parts from a rare drop, buy the blue prints, nearly instantly have the things built, grind to rank up, buy the blue print, and wait 12 hours.  My point here is that most of the time with the Necraloid is just spent waiting on things to build.  The Kerations has 4 parts....because we couldn't just have a blue print that takes 12 hours to build a set of claws and a set of gauntlets.  We cannot just have a set conversion for resources like PoE and Fortuna, everything has to have artificial timers and hard caps on availability.  It's transparent that DE wants time played here....and if they don't get it, you don't get content.  I just want to desire grinding a fair system, not stare down the barrel of a less than 1% drop rate for minor improvement to systems that still need months of content to be anything more than aspirational.  DE aspires to having the mech mean something....eventually.  For now, they're just big stompy grinds for no usage outside of content islands.  

 

-Edit-

Yeah, unfortunately you're right about the Glass.  The inclusion of it in the final rank-up is depressing.  Let's require 99k standing, and another 30k worth of additional grind.  It's not enough to just be 4 days of standing, it needs to be 5 days and some unknown spamming of an NPC for a conversion token used to buy an item that has only 3 uses otherwise.  Ouch.

Edited by master_of_destiny
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All i need is standing and i will be maxed in Entrati.  Already max with necroloid.

I stiil feel like hunting and fishing should be 1:1 for tokens (3:1 for perfect captures/large fish)

The reason im posting this time however are the granny tokens and conversions.  The big ticket items at Granny is the glass and the captura.  20-50? Granny tokens.  But for most of the family it takes 10 tokens from several members to get 1 token. 3 granny takes can take 30 tokens from others.  It should be 1-2 tokens per familiy member like son.   Son is the best/easiest to convert into granny.

Lets say i want a captura, 50 granny tokens.   Lets say i got lucky and could buy x5 tokens non stop...   That would be 10 x5 tokens....  but what would that cost?  

  • 100 Mother
  • 100 father
  • 100 daughter
  • 100 Otak
  • 20 Son

Thats obscene.  Mother is easy.  The rest your talking about hours of mindless grind per family member.   That so above and beyond the grind u originally had for ranking up and u had that huge backlash.   I suspect people havent got around to capturas or making the weapons from father yet.  

Like i said, make granny coins only take 1-2 tokens per family member or reduce cost of captura to like 5-10 granny tokens.

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The price to gild the infested companions is to high.

20 son tokens is just too much. considering there are 6 different companions we would need 120 son tokens?! Even if you divide it by half it's too much considering the time it takes to farm those stupid tags to convert into those stupid tokens.

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7 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Shortening responses to points, as by now this has become long enough.

  1. Ignorance to promises is not to be lauded.  I appreciate you don't engage with their media, but it's how they talk to us.  If we let them promise the moon, and deliver none of that, then we'll never get good content.  Case in point, railjack.  
  2. Mother tokens, as stated before, are the only grind upgrade.  They allow infinite bounty grind.  They are not the issue, it's the devaluation of everything else and the miserable grind that is a problem.
  3. I already did the math, but let's refresh.  Mining specifically.  One non-rare mineral is about 50 standing on PoE.  On Deimos it can cost 10 minerals to get a token work 100 standing.  50>10.  Likewise, fish on PoE produce hundreds of standing.  On Deimos a single coin requires several fish to be cut for resources, and the coin is still 100 standing.  Hence, devaluation.
  4. The argument that boosters make it easier is stupid.  It's stating "I can pay DE to make their intentionally grindy system less so."  It's buying a solution to a problem they made.  I see why people do it, but rewarding that is not good for future content.
  5. Conservation isn't just bad, it's bad and required for content.  Due to tags being traded, instead of token being awarded directly, your ability to engage is entirely based on RNG for what is valued.  What was a nice diversion with cosmetics before (floofs) is now an expensive proposition.  I hate floofs, but pity those that like them because this open world spits in the face of players who do.  As someone who could care, I'm looking at 10k standing per gilded pet....and really asking why I should care after I get the MR.  Can't see a reason yet.
  6. Let's talk Grendel.  It was a 100% piece drop chance....but how.  You needed locators.  Locators cost Vitus Essence.  25 a pop in fact.  Vitus drops rarely in x3 packs, or singularly from drones.  Let's say you average about 2 essence for each round of the match (1 guaranteed, 1 drop), and do survival (for easier timing).  75/2 = 37.5 rewards cycles.  That's more than 175 minutes, or about 3 hours of grinding arbitrations.  The counter that a drop chance booster exists is again ignored.  I can see liking the mission itself, even if I don't.  What I cannot see is liking the expenditure of 3 solid hours of grinding to do these missions.  
  7. Harrow's grind sucks.  I will not argue.  The only alleviation is using a wisp.  The counter is that AI is stupid enough to regularly get stuck on terrain.  This should be addressed by DE...and whenever the prime comes out nobody will bother with rotation C of defections....or at least even less than they do now given that no other reward there justifies the headache.  
  8. There's a difference between releasing a core and building, and releasing things to meet a deadline.  Tennocon 2018 happened, and they sold the orb mothers along with railjack.  End of 2018....and we got Fortuna.  It was another bounty driven open world with the orb mothers completely non-interactive.  Some months later we get the Profit-Taker, with months after that seeing the Exploiter.  They didn't release Fortuna as a core, they released the copy paste of PoE and then bolted the promised components on.  We're back to the point where if DE kept their mouths closed, all of this would be impressive.  Unfortunately, promising the moon makes it way less so.
  9. DE is an entity.  They have limitations.  Instead of acknowledging this they promise things, extend releases, and deliver lackluster.  Let's look at Fortnite, because DE took Nighteave from them.  Seasons of Fortnite generally have mostly cosmetics as rewards...and Nightwave hides cosmetics and power.  They've taken a smaller studio's resources, and instead of expending artists at the issue they've required code monkeys too.  Why?  They choose to do things the hard way, when they don't have the resources.  That's not to be lauded, only to be admonished for lacking the ability to manage scope against ability.
  10. Regarding this discourse...coming to amicable terms is different from speaking amicably.  I don't agree with your assertions, you don't agree with mine, and I don't believe either of us has insulted the other.  If so, it was an error in my wording and I apologize as it was not the intent.  This said, amicable terms of understanding in this case is meant to basically be "agree to disagree" as we are talking in circles about issues we cannot fundamentally come to an agreement upon.
  11. The most efficient grind is what people will do if they want the thing, but if that efficient grind activity sucks they'll choose a thing that is more fun.  Case in point, it's easier to mine than to grind for dillute thermia, grind the Exploiter, and hope you get enough resources.  It's also not time gated to an event.  People choose the Exploiter because it's more shooty-shooty bang-bang.
  12. Let's talk about your theoretical.  As someone who has 5 Atteraxes....with 5 lenses....all forma'd for critical builds...I can explain the logic.  At one time it was 200k focus per day.  You banged that out in 4-5 runs of Adaro with a silence Banshee.  I now have all of that done, 10 million standing extra in each focus school, and enough eidolon shards for several million more for any school.  I started grinding not from the beginning, but years later.  I cannot speak to release state, but as of 3 years ago the state of focus was quite rewarding and worth it.
  13. Let's talk ESO.  I don't grind it for affinity, because I don't need it.  I didn't need it when I wanted the Braton Vandal, and the point was that a 2% drop rate for 20 minutes of doing mindless slaughtering of enemies is just not a great incentive.  The Braton Vandal is low tier assault rifle fodder, that required doing twice daily 20 minute runs for more than a month.  See above where you complain about Harrow's grind for some perspective.  The model here is simple, apply spores, swing melee, wait out the timer.  Not engaging, not rewarding me with the only content I desired, and the reward itself was only mastery rank given that the content was meh.
  14. I am looking at the future because it's functionally why DE structure rewards as such.  If you could bang out Harrow in 20 minutes it'd be fine, but there'd be no reason to go back and do content you don't enjoy or get good rewards for.   Disruption as a game mode is not absolutely unique, but it gets traffic because the rewards are great (guaranteed Axi relics).  Likewise, if Deimos is not rewarding it'll die like PoE and Fortuna did.  Not an abrupt death, but slow strangulation by having less player interaction and thus less reason to come back.  Your comments about not engaging with Deimos are telling.
  15. Helminth and Argon....oh boy.  Bought the booster from Baro.  Had 60+ argon crystals....and found them to be worth 3% at the minimum.  So, farm up three without the booster, or spend 30 of them to get the 30% maximum feeding bonus with patience.  I kind of feel like DE is slapping me in the face and calling me their pay pig.  I mean this as a joke, as I think we agree on the....issues inherent in the system.
  16. I engaged with the Eidolons solo to begin with, and found that collecting all of those fragments was a miserable way to progress.  That aside, the retiring of raids and introduction of the tri-dolon mission was what I view as the hard start of actual viability for the content.  Perhaps we just differ here, and I'm willing to accept that.
  17. Regarding the content stretch....this is kind of like the Lesion.  You build thing 1 and 2, combine to make 3, build thing 4, and combine 3 and 4 to make 5.  The thing is with Lesion all of these things were content.  With the mech it's grind for damaged parts, grind standing to buy blue print, build part, grind standing to level up, buy the blue print, build, wait 72 hours.  Let's compare it to the other item in the Necraloid faction.  I get the damaged parts from a rare drop, buy the blue prints, nearly instantly have the things built, grind to rank up, buy the blue print, and wait 12 hours.  My point here is that most of the time with the Necraloid is just spent waiting on things to build.  The Kerations has 4 parts....because we couldn't just have a blue print that takes 12 hours to build a set of claws and a set of gauntlets.  We cannot just have a set conversion for resources like PoE and Fortuna, everything has to have artificial timers and hard caps on availability.  It's transparent that DE wants time played here....and if they don't get it, you don't get content.  I just want to desire grinding a fair system, not stare down the barrel of a less than 1% drop rate for minor improvement to systems that still need months of content to be anything more than aspirational.  DE aspires to having the mech mean something....eventually.  For now, they're just big stompy grinds for no usage outside of content islands.  

 

-Edit-

Yeah, unfortunately you're right about the Glass.  The inclusion of it in the final rank-up is depressing.  Let's require 99k standing, and another 30k worth of additional grind.  It's not enough to just be 4 days of standing, it needs to be 5 days and some unknown spamming of an NPC for a conversion token used to buy an item that has only 3 uses otherwise.  Ouch.

@master_of_destinythank you so much for this. this whole update has been a train wreck of excruciating grind for me. no one should be letting DE off the hook for this psychological experiment they call content.

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