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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


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On 2020-08-30 at 12:16 AM, tennomantra said:

Not sure where to put this. It's a small qol change that is needed. Currently extraction point (green zone) when returning from the drift excludes the area at the entry door to the hub (red area). Extraction zone needs to simply be moved a upwards (yellow circle), to include the area where many people intuitively go to expecting to immediately extract. 
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The current token system, specially son, cambion drift activities (fishing, mining, conservation) and new resources tied to it discourages many players that for different reasons won't be doing them (like, seriously, nobody thought when they first heard about an infested open world : "oh yes, can't wait to point an laser drill to the rocks of this new open world!1!"), but most important there are items locked behind this like if we didn't have enough of this ridiculous and tedious/boring grind with the other open worlds, for resources this is partially fixed with those reactive crystals and isolation vaults, but it's not enough and it's waste of opportunities for introducing new challenges against the infested and overall for the game.

This is warframe we are here to shoot and chop things to dust, so i think you should introduce a new weekly bounty that rewards a decent amount of family tokens (only one type of token per week, from son, daughter, grandmother and maybe otak) between other stuff, and adds something actually cool and interesting to do in your new open world, the bounty premise should be about some new type of big and vicious infested that can't be detected by necramechs npcs was released after we open the isolation vaults when we came to deimos and is causing serious troubles to cambion drift and its fish, conservation targets, k-drive courses, etc.  Alternatively it could be about a virus/toxin that was released instead, that generated/attracted such new enemy.

With that on the table there are many possibilities for fight phases, drops, rare resources, decoration, etc. and like eidolons there could be more than one, let's say for example the first one of the bounty is the cub and we can draw out its mother after we kill/capture it, You should also have in mind the mistakes and good things from eidolons and Orb vallis orbs, specially eidolons since those weren't changed much since release and still have core problems like their mechanics and hitboxes.
On a side note i think the new fight should also take place on different locations and caves, because the current bounties only use few places and in a small radious.

Not everything is terrible in this new syndicate and economy, but definitely needs more tweaks and additions.

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I'd like Father/Daughter/Son/Loid to highlight tokens I can buy and visually seperate them in the menu from tokens I cannot afford. 

The Rarity of Velocipods is certainly whack.  Son's praises fall wrong when I've found over 40 whites, exactly 7 purples and about 10 greens.  Rarity for a lot of animals seems pretty off because I'm finding way more rare things than not.   
(also, I keep shooting tranqs at four legged infested beasts belonging to other players thanks to the naming convention you've got going) 

Carnis mods drop like nano spores, but Saxons and Jugulus mods do not drop.  We were running Nekky and Khora in the Issolation vaults (Where many of these characters spawn) and found absolutely nothing.   They are given far too rarely in endless bounties. I have recieved a grand total of two from endless bounties, and I've played far too much of those (Could we rescue Latrox Une already? Guy really needs to get off Deimos)   

Son Tokens are not rewarding enough in comparison to the effort some of them take. If I can find them waltzing around by chance, it's ok for them to be inexpensive, but if I need to track them, they should be worth more. 

Necromech weapon parts... I suppose their uneven for a reason, you do you DE, but Weapon parts are far too few. 
(off topic but I wouldn't have thought mechs would be introduced to the game as an Orokin thing. If you introduce Grineer or Corpus mechs now they'd only be a downgrade.) 

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12 minutes ago, Innocent_Flower said:

I'd like Father/Daughter/Son/Loid to highlight tokens I can buy and visually seperate them in the menu from tokens I cannot afford. 

The Rarity of Velocipods is certainly whack.  Son's praises fall wrong when I've found over 40 whites, exactly 7 purples and about 10 greens.  Rarity for a lot of animals seems pretty off because I'm finding way more rare things than not.   
(also, I keep shooting tranqs at four legged infested beasts belonging to other players thanks to the naming convention you've got going) 

Carnis mods drop like nano spores, but Saxons and Jugulus mods do not drop.  We were running Nekky and Khora in the Issolation vaults (Where many of these characters spawn) and found absolutely nothing.   They are given far too rarely in endless bounties. I have recieved a grand total of two from endless bounties, and I've played far too much of those (Could we rescue Latrox Une already? Guy really needs to get off Deimos)   

Son Tokens are not rewarding enough in comparison to the effort some of them take. If I can find them waltzing around by chance, it's ok for them to be inexpensive, but if I need to track them, they should be worth more. 

Necromech weapon parts... I suppose their uneven for a reason, you do you DE, but Weapon parts are far too few. 
(off topic but I wouldn't have thought mechs would be introduced to the game as an Orokin thing. If you introduce Grineer or Corpus mechs now they'd only be a downgrade.) 

The new set mods drop from the Rex variant enemies and endless. Carnis Rex spawns everywhere, Saxum Rex spawns only in assassination bounties and Jugulus Rex doesn't exist, meaning that the only way to get the Jugulus mods is from endless. 

It would be nice if Mother could accept some Ayatan Stars for the new set mods or let us buy them with Mother Tokens. It's silly that these niche mods are rarer than Condition Overload.

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Son tokens to gild need to be reduced to 1. It is a ridiculous amount to ask when tokens are like debt bonds with a random ask for a max of 4. This is a horrible ask just to gild. Also I love Deimos but this sours my experience in the open world because the layers of rng with what will roll at the scat and what the requirements for a token will be. The system isn’t fair right now and in my opinion is done in an EXTREME poor taste to get me to spend plat. I did already because on release till today the avichea will consistently not spawn. This is highly disrespectful to my time investment because their tags are tied to progression with the entrati that’s not ok with a FAIR free to play model. Grandmother needs to have her requirements reduced substantially it’s ludacris the amounts asked for tokens from other family members for her wares/tokens but especially seriglass. I get that you want us to spend time in this beautiful new open world I love it myself but don’t sour the experience by creating plat traps with unreliable mechanics and requirements that antagonize rather than created memorable experiences that invite return. I want all the companions but why would I get them for unfair requirements that take days and not only that but if I wait they’ll be a new set of rng requirements for the tokens to make my companion viable. Grandmother and son need a nerf and otak doesn’t need to have a token at all. Otak bears nothing to what’s going on and is just a progression blocker and a waste of resources. Please make these changes. 

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Not sure if this has been brought up before and I don't mean to just add on to it ad nauseam, but the fact that you can't turn in deimos pets if your daily standing is maxed seems like its just something that was mistakenly brought over from the copy/paste of how the other factions work.  

Spoiler

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You're not being rewarded standing, you're supposed to get 15 son token, though I've been seeing people in the bugs board saying they're not even getting that, so the fact that you can't turn them in when you've reached your daily standing makes no sense what so ever.  

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After being done with all the Deimos content (still missing a bunch of necramech mods but suffering through bugs isn't worth it at the moment) I can confidently say: Deimos economy is the worst of all three open worlds. Getting Mom's tokens for raw standing is fine, but chores of running around the hub exchanging resources for different tokens 1-5 at a time feels like a whole separate grind island. The system is presented as "play at your own pace and cash in your tokens whenever you want" but in practice you have to do token exchange chores multiple times a day if you want to make use of your resources and daily cap because exchange offers are random and time-gated.

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I have seen a lot of talks and complaints about the conservation grind, and was feeling pretty disappointed myself with how little progress the non-combat activities felt like they were giving. So I decided to sit down and evaluate and quantify the grind for the conservation activities and break down just what we get for our standing.

 

Conservation Hunting

the per tag value for standing is abysmal 4-8 tags for 1 token is ridiculous, while I have gotten 4 tokens for 2 rare tags, that is still a not an good pay out when you compare it to the other open worlds

 

On the low end:

assuming BAD captures: common pobbers/kuakas variants are 200 each

assuming PERFECT captures, 400 each

compared to deimos (4-8 tags for 1 son token), that is  1.6-6.4 times more value per animal in other open worlds (37.5- 84% reduction in value)

 

On the high end

assuming BAD captures: rare mergoo 1800, rare kubrodon 4000

assuming PERFECT captures, rare mergoo 3600, rare kubrodon 8000

compared to deimos, (2-4 tags for 4 son tokens) that is 1.8-8 times more value per animal in other open worlds (44-93.75% reduction in value)

 

Fishing

Fish standing ranges are as follows:

Cetus: 25-2000 standing

Fortuna: 35-1000 standing

Deimos: 25-250 (assuming 100% accuracy of available assignments to correlating fish parts) a 75-87.5% reduction!

I am ignoring what fish give specifically and breaking down what fish give in terms of common, uncommon, and rare resources since daughter's assignments are RNG, with the possible combos available on the wiki rn. Please note this is assuming that the fish parts gained through chopping aligns perfectly with the RNG deals from daughter.

kymaeros are the most common fish, found both fass/vome on the surface. The small variant gives 5 common resources with the only the 1 and 2 token deals relying solely on common parts. meaning that a small kymaeros gives 25-50 standing.  The more rare fish are a bit more complicated to calculate as the 4-5 token deal possibilities have a wide range of common to rare resource demands but by breaking down what the large of each fish gave and comparing it to the smallest possible demand for each assignment combo, it was possible to get 5 tokens for 2 fish using this theoretical method, making the most standing a fish could possibly be worth 250. The exact fish that is worth the most is debatable but any combo of duroid and vitreospina/chondricord could fulfill this assignment (8x uncommon + 1-6x rare + 1-6x rare).

Mining 

All gems are classified as uncommon or higher in relation to Otak's assignments with all ores except thaumica being classified as common. 

Tiametrite (pink) and dagonic (orange) gems seem to be the most plentiful and are the only ones mineable with the basic mining laser, making them the direct equivalent to common gems on other open worlds which range in value from 50 (azurite, devar, phasmin, noctrul), 75 (veridos), and 200 (goblite).  Since ore deposits are generally more common, give more resource per node, and are not tradeable in the other open worlds, I will not be calculating in ore (which actually adds value to the deimos gems since their value is not spread out across more items) 

Otak offerings are somewhat wonky 1 token for (7-10x common + 4-6x uncommon) ignoring the commons since its exclusively ore, that values each gem at 25-16 standing.

The highest value per gem deal otak has using this calculation method is a 3 token offer (10-20x common + 15-20x common + 4x uncommon) which puts each gem at 75 standing, this does ignore a large ore cost though. His lowest value deal is also at the 3 token tier (10-20x common + 12-20x uncommon + 12-20x uncommon) which amounts to a measly 7.5 standing per gem. If you add in the ores to that deal it comes down to 5 standing per item. He only offers 1 deal type that involves rare gems. so to calculate the value of the rare gems I averaged the value of gems in each of his deals which came out to be 25 standing for all non rare gems. Unfortunately that leads to a bit of a conundrum. Because the 4 token deal is (10x uncommon + 10x uncommon + 2x rare) 20 uncommon times 25 is 500. 500 is 100 more standing than we would get out of that deal. back to square one. Let's assume that one of those 10x uncommons is actually the only uncommon ore: thaumica. While it would be very dumb to use it for standing because of its extremely rare droprate, for the purposes of this analysis we will ignore that. 10x25= 250. That leaves 150 standing to be divided between the 2 rare gems in the deal. meaning that at most a rare gem is worth 75 standing. 

 

the highest valued gems on the other open worlds are 400 in cetus and 1000 in Fortuna. The lowest in either of them is 50 standing.
Deimos gems range from 5 standing  up to 75 standing. No matter how you slice it that's a 81.25-99.5% reduction in value.

 

OVERALL

Those are all direct item>token>standing values. But for the sake of argument, lets pretend that you turn in all of those tokens for grandmother tokens, which are worth 1.5 times as much as whatever tokens you trade to her. The lowest devaluation (37.5% from conservation) becomes only a 6.25% reduction, not too bad, maybe even forgivable. however the worst, 99.5% only gets brought down to a 99.25% reduction. But the high end of hunting is the exception, not the rule.

40% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 10% reduction <This is where hunting begins

50% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 25% reduction

60% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 40% reduction

75% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 62.5% reduction <This is where fishing begins

80% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 70% reduction <This is where mining begins

90% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 85% reduction< This is where fishing/hunting ends

95% original reduction transferred to grandma tokens equals 92.5% reduction

 

Quite frankly, this is unacceptable. Especially when combined with the fact that the weapons available from the syndicate cost between 3000-42,500 standing when compared to zaws which range from 3000-17,000 standing and kitguns which range from 10,000-12,500. I totaled the costs from each open world main syndicate to acquire every MR item and every every usable item that serves an active purpose (lure, tools, reusable blueprints) The low numbers represent all MR fodder modular builds using the cheapest parts, the high number maximizes the cost of each modular item.

 

Cetus 184,250-265,250 

Fortuna 204,500-312.500

Deimos 217,500-274,500

 

Bounties

Deimos does not seem too out of line at first, but both Cetus and Fortuna have gotten significant expansions since launch and contain significantly more content. I decided to break down how rewarding the bounties were because the more I was looking at the numbers, the more stuff just didn't feel right.

Tier 1          Tier 2        Tier 3                     Tier 4       Tier 5      Tier 6 (steel path)

 

Cetus            1500          2160          2650                      3520        4230        5020

Fortuna         1080          1920          2590                      3340        4290        5020

Deimos         1500          3600          4500 (endless)       7200        8900        11,300

 

Conclusion

All forms of conservation and non combat activities are HEAVILY de-incentivized  as made apparent by the bounty rewards giving 50-100% more standing than other open worlds and conservation work being next to worthless as a means to gaining standing (10-99% reductions). DE is not incompetent and I do not believe this is a mistake. These changes were likely made to combat players using conservation to max their daily standing in 10-15 minutes of play, as even 3 runs of a steel path bounty on Deimos take about an hour to complete, while still keeping the overall time to hit daily cap somewhat manageable. Combined with the sizable increase in standing costs obviously meant to inflate playtime (not a bad thing to do necessarily). While this might work in the short term, nerfing conservation work to the state it currently is in simply makes it not worth it to ever do outside of immediate demand for resources. Part of the reason conservation was enjoyable and played in the other open worlds was because it was an alternative to running bounties. You could break the gameplay loop without losing out. Even if you were max with the syndicate, you could still buy items that could be traded for plat with your extra standing. It did not feel like you were dead in the water while doing it. Deimos does not allow players to break the gameplay loop and progress through other methods in any meaningful way. This will and is generating a large amount of player burnout. 

 

 

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For the sake of ease of use, can the purchasing of tokens be a "select all you wish to buy"? Making it this way would make it much easier and way less time consuming considering the hitch that happens when selecting a token. How it would work is you can still view the resources needed when hovering over tokens as normal; but when viewing all the token packs, you can select all the ones you wish to purchase. Once you've selected all you want, you hit a purchase button and it gives you a summary of what you'll be expending and how many tokens you'll receive. From there you can choose to accept or deny the transaction. This would be so great for QoL.

P.S: I LOVE the new pets. The abilities are really cool. I'd love to see the ability to apply our pet skins to them.

Edited by (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1
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On 2020-09-06 at 12:21 PM, Mephane said:

After having unlocked all mutagen and antigen blueprints, it was finally time to start making my first infested pets... except that I feelt immediately demotivated by how their health type is tied to their looks. Whereas for MOAs, the difference between different components is between health shield and armor, 5% more of this but 5% less of this, the health classes for infested pets have all have massive vulnerabilities against certain damage types. As long as you tie cosmetics to stats for these pets, the stat difference should be as minor as it is for MOAs.

It clearly states that it only takes the resistances. If it also takes vulnerabilities, that is poorly worded and unfair. Luckily, I took both resistances and vulnerabilities into account and found alloy to be the biggest bang for my buck. Hope that helps. 

Edited by (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1
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Can i eat Ayatan Star? 8 rewarded for 4 rounds of mining is enough to build a wall blocking this map out of my world

And plz make the underworld be able to deploy archwing too. The map is like a 3km-depth bee nest that u can only reach the surface after diving for at least 2km

Edited by minhm01
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12 hours ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

It clearly states that it only takes the resistances. If it also takes vulnerabilities, that is poorly worded and unfair. Luckily, I took both resistances and vulnerabilities into account and found alloy to be the biggest bang for my buck. Hope that helps. 

IDK if it is just placeholder text or accurate, but using the simaris synthesis scanner widget on my pet shows resistances and vulnerabilities (robotic health type on this pet btw)Warframe0000.jpg

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Since Helminth is a resource sink, and is kinda related to economy, I'd say that some railjack resources like Fresnels, are required in quantities that are too high for Helminth, higher than actual drop rate of the item. I was chatting with another "no-life" player of warframe who is similar to myself, and he shared that in his entire play time of railjack, completing everything and reaching MK III gear, he has 900 Fresnels. And Helminth wants us to feed it a stack of 1000 Frensels. Something's a bit off here with what the system thinks we can accumulate and what is actually dropped in the game.

Also, since Helminth has made Cryotic more relevant again, I think Railjack missions can have Cryotic returned to their end of mission reward tables. It would be nice to have more than one option of getting Cryotic. Doing excavations only can get tiring. 

Edited by Xepthrichros
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5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Since Helminth is a resource sink, and is kinda related to economy, I'd say that some railjack resources like Fresnels, are required in quantities that are too high for Helminth, higher than actual drop rate of the item. I was chatting with another "no-life" player of warframe who is similar to myself, and he shared that in his entire play time of railjack, completing everything and reaching MK III gear, he has 900 Fresnels. And Helminth wants us to feed it a stack of 1000 Frensels. Something's a bit off here with what the system thinks we can accumulate and what is actually dropped in the game.

Also, since Helminth has made Cryotic more relevant again, I think Railjack missions can have Cryotic returned to their end of mission reward tables. It would be nice to have more than one option of getting Cryotic. Doing excavations only can get tiring. 

Post this in the Helminth Feedback Megathread. Btw... I no lifed RJ. I have every reactor, engine, shield array, and weapon MK3 with max stats, and I still only have 1.7k Fresnels. That's 1 feed. I have probably 100+ hours in RJ alone. 

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Ok, having played this update for the better part of a month, I am ready to provide some feedback. Since I don't see a thread for the map or missions itself, I will include that feedback here.

There is a lot that I do like about this update, the story is decent enough (for those of us that got to see the cutscenes anyway). The world is spectacular and the smaller size does make it easy to explore, while still boasting a variety of interesting landmarks.

Regarding the economy, more than anything the stores just seem threadbare. All of the other planet syndicates took much longer to max out due to the shops offering many tantalizing and useful wares, and thus reaching max rank felt more earned, more satisfying. In addition there were many other optional purchases after max rank to provide a reason for players to continue to visit and grind out some standing. I do understand that more is coming, but as it stands, so far my victory feels a little hollow.
I suggest some upgrade to the tranq rifle, either a direct upgraded model, or some enhancement widgets similar to those offered by Simaris for the Synthesis Scanner. A directional/proximity detector, and something to enhance the trails which tbh really cause me a lot of eye strain to follow sometimes, would be greatly appreciated.

The token system is fine, it definitely has its advantages. But the interface for buying all the tokens is really tedious and could be improved.
First, if the player does not have enough resources, indicate that with red text for the missing requirement.
Second, make the interface into a checkout-like system similar to the Ducat kiosk, Helminth feeding UI, mod melting, etc. One click adds the token bundle to the checkout list, a checkout button completes the transaction with one verification step.

I do find conservation tasks to be much easier to pursue for the most part (maybe if avichaea are fixed now this can be true across the board). If the tranq rifle got some QoL improvements, it might even be fun eventually.
Velocipods are cute but I've never ridden one since they are more valuable tagged. I guess this is remedied by the new K-drive skins.
I need to test the new fishing tweaks before I speak to that again, but at least until this update there were some problems for sure.

Mining on Deimos is completely unnecessary. Which is fine since I hate mining possibly even more than animal caps. I'm fine with this being the gimme for Deimos, especially because the pulsating geometry often makes the ores difficult or impossible to see, in addition to them appearing on incongruous surfaces that are inaccessible with some frequency.

I have provided Necramech feedback in the appropriate thread but I will just mention again here that the mod capacity is a serious issue; and the vault missions, while being the most fun and interesting content in the update, quickly become discouraging to play for two main reasons. One being that the drop tables are still really poor overall, but the most significant flaw in their design is that the rarest mod rewards are loaded BACKWARDS on the table tiers.
Because of this, there is no reason for me to stay past the T1 vault anymore. And to a lesser extent for many players still lacking the slightly less rare mods, its the same for T2. It is easier to clean out the rewards for T3 than it is for the lesser tiers, which incentivizes me to be THAT guy and bail on the squad before completing all 3 tiers. And hey, my time matters, best believe I will.

Now, as with Fortuna, the mission design is rather thin, and the utilization of the world's various points of interest is woeful. The bounties all feel very samey, and furthermore the reward tables for them are very underwhelming, and in addition to being static tables unlike those of Fortuna and Cetus, the rarest drops are infuriatingly rare.
On the positive side I will say that the Purifier objective seems like a novel mission type without analog elsewhere in the game, and this is good, you need more of this. The contest with the grinners is also kinda fun, and I like the new NPCs Garv and Latrox.
While there are definite landmarks to be found, at least half the mission stages are in a handful of stagnant locations. Most notable to me is the mission where you are ultimately sent to reclaim some Entrati "base" which is just a nondescript mound in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile there are ruins all over the map, occasionally with pillars to be restored that could actually feel like something Otak claims to be sending us to do. Likewise in the caves, there are some ruins to be found (not the vaults), some even provide good space for battle, but we are never sent to them.

In fact let's talk about the caves. Random caves is a cool idea on paper. Sounds neat, until you realize that for the most part all the random caves on Deimos are just meaningless little cul-de-sacs devoid of any significant features that would cause you to seek them out, unless I'm missing something. There are no scannable easter eggs that I've found, nor anything of interest whatsoever that you cannot already find in abundance in one of the static caves in the map, which are also vast compared to the procedural ones (excluding the vaults which can only be accessed during one specific mission).
The static caves are better for fishing because at least you can know where to go for reliable cave fishing, and mining because they are huge and have plentiful ores. Also, at least mission stages sometimes send us into the static caves. The procedural caves hold no lasting interest whatsoever, they appear to have no depth or significance to reward the effort of seeking them. Superfluous waste of assets much like the many unused points of interest on Fortuna (hint hint, Deimos isn't the only open world with glaring wasted potential).

It's great that you have a steady output of new gear and cosmetics that your talented art teams are clearly busy with full-time, and it is always nice to have, but what there isn't enough of is expansion of the game into the voids in the existing content. Narrative missions that feel like part of a significant operation, such as Kuva Assault or the Profit Taker bounties are generally among the most enjoyable in the game to me because their design involves objectives which feel meaningful rather than just, "stand here for some reason and kill stuff for 2 minutes".
This unto itself is already more digression than I meant to get into but if the writers and designers responsible for actually creating mission loops were half as prolific as your art team, this game would feel a lot less grindy even if the rewards were the same. I'll assume the existing staff have their hands full with new things, so.. hire a couple new brains to backfill some of the desolate, pointless dead ends in the game. More space dungeons, more crawl.

So, while I did enjoy the update in general while it lasted, it feels very superficial, under-utilized just like Fortuna remains, and its rapid conquest was a bit unsatisfying. The most exciting new piece of gear has fundamental problems which completely frustrate and even punish any attempt to maximize its loadout. The Arquebex fiasco was astonishingly clumsy. The Deimos Captura one was as well, directly caused by the underwhelming trade options in the first place. It will probably take me another week at best to clean out Grandma for all her Captura scenes. Beyond that, there's Necramech Thrusters. But despite that being literally the only mod in the entire game I do not possess yet, the fact that my chance of getting it is astronomical, coupled with the fact that even if I obtained it I CANNOT SLOT IT without compromising something on my 7-forma mech build, despite my normally obsessive collector's streak you know, I really couldn't give a toss right now.

I'm not salty about anything in the new content so much as just, unimpressed with its incomplete design overall. It just hit me too, all of a sudden I have already simply had my fill of what there is to do.

Edited by Cristovelli
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Overall, I really like the economy of Deimos.  I like how all of the different activities can be used to earn standing, and how diversifying your activities can lead to more Grandma tokens and hence more efficient progression (while you need it).

My only complaint so far is just how rough it is to get Son tokens.  I'm going to contrast that with my experience hunting on the Plains of Eidelon and in the Orb Vallis.

Issues:

  1. Previous open-world hunting results in each hunt granting both standing and tags; this system only gives tags, which can be converted into standing (Son tokens).  So we're getting less rewards for hunting than before. I have to decide: Floofs or standing?
  2. Even if you're regularly doing captures, it's hard to get any Son Tokens because trading for these tokens requires so many captures of specific creatures in specific combinations.
  3. For players who were previously doing Good and Perfect captures, the amount of standing per capture has plummeted.  So we're getting much less rewards for hunting than before.
  4. Gilding a pet costs 10 Son tokens.  At the current rate I can get them, this feels ridiculous.  I've gone out farming for captures recently and at the rate I'm going, I would estimate it will take 5 or 10 hours to gather that many Son tokens.  Some part of this equation needs to change.

And really, the Gilding is what made it bad enough to feel worth posting about.  There are plenty of ways to get standing besides hunting.  Floofs are neat but don't feel like something I need.  But I'd really like to play with the new pets, and Son tokens seem like an unreasonably difficult barrier to being able to.

Thanks for considering my feedback!

Specifically, needing 10 Son tokens to Gild the new pets is overwhelming, because Son tokens seem to require very large amounts of tags in odd combinations. 

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On 2020-08-26 at 11:34 PM, Clowee said:

I feel they need to open more paths to the walled off content.  The problem is there are so many activities now in Warframe that some % of people are guaranteed to absolutely hate some of them.  I, for example hate mining, fishing and conservation.  When you force these activities upon me, I do not have fun playing.  10 minutes, 5 minutes, 5 hours doesn't really matter - the game should not be a chore at any point.

It's nice that there's a zillion things to do in game now, but not having options defeats the purpose of having choices.  Let the people who want to kill stuff kill stuff, and let the people who want to fish fish.  Don't force the murder hobos to fish, and don't force the fishermen to kill stuff.  It's pretty simple.  I will happily kill 100,000 of the new centipedes not to have to fish or conserve for 15 minutes.  As soon as I'm forced to fish, I don't want to play the new content.

Since everybody will want the Helmith, there should be multiple paths for getting it.   This would make the open world more accessible to everybody, and nobody would be bored.  I have avoided open worlds so far because I don't want to mine and fish, and I feel like Warframe excludes me from a fair amount of progression because of it.  Its not for lack of trying - Iv'e caught the stupid fish and mined the stupid minerals and it's just not entertaining for me.  Given that I played Warframe before mining and fishing were things, I feel like these are forced additions to the game that have overall negatively impacted my experience of it, whereas if I would not care if they were alternative means to achieve the same progression

 

I am with you, but at this point I know DE in no way cares, so I have just been playing less. I come back and boot up every so often, try and force my self to finish a few grinds I wanted to do. PLay my weekly run with my clan. But over all just give up. DE made it clear if I do not want to spend weeks on a mini game WarFrame is not for me.

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Now that I've had more time to play the content, I've refined my initial thoughts with the Entrati Syndicate and its economy.
 

  • There needs to be a way to turn in 'uncured' weakened predasites/vulpaphylas to Son in exchange for tokens.  Right now I have 67 weakened vizier predasites after I already turned one into a companion that I'm probably not ever going to use otherwise. These could stay at a low value, even if it's only 1 token, while turning in fully ranked or guilded companions retain their current values, which would give more than 'uncured' ones.

 

  • Seriglass Shards from Grandmother feel a bit too expensive, considering its about 30k worth of standing for a single item that's just *part* of  what's needed to craft several weapons, when all of those weapon blueprints already cost standing to acquire.

 

  • There needs to be alternate methods of gaining tokens for Son, Daughter, Father, Otak, and Grandma as currently they're all time-gated by how many requisitions they have at any given time, which just feels bad since it's just another limiting factor along side the daily standing cap. Additionally, part of why Daughter's /Son's requisition prices feel bad is you have to turn in multiple fish/animal tags to get 1 token, whereas fish/animal captures had their own standing values in Fortuna/Cetus, but not here on Deimos so it feels you are being rewarded less.
  • Son - give tokens for capturing animals, equivalent to OV/PoE giving standing for each animal capture.  This would then be an incentive to care about the quality of the capture, as presently capture quality is meaningless.  Animals would need designated token values based on rarity and quality of capture.  The value of Son's tokens and the quantities you receive from requisitions would likely need to be adjusted to compensate for the change.
  • Daughter - give tokens for turning in (providing) whole fish, like you can in Fortuna and Cetus.  Fish would need designated token values, which would likely require the value of her tokens and the quantities you receive from requisitions to be adjusted to compensate for the change.
  • Father - while his requisition prices feel fine, acquiring his tokens are time-gated . Grant tokens based on how many kills you get using Fallen Necramechs before they get destroyed- this gives an incentive to actively go seek them out and try them instead of just being neat little side gimmicks without really any purpose
  • Grandmother -  give tokens for completing her k-drive races.
  • Otak - give tokens for completing excavator objectives.  Perhaps have another endless bounty that players can take for an excavation that rewards otak tokens, cryotic, and other mined resources.
  • Potential New Bounties - it could be interesting to see bounties that reward tokens for other Entrati members besides Mother.  This would give a more viable means to acquire those tokens without forcing players who don't like hunting, mining, and fishing engage in content that they don't enjoy.  Having the changes of each member's economy in addition to adding new bounties would make it rewarding for both types of players (the ones that do enjoy mining, fishing, and hunting, and those who don't).
Edited by Lokidus_Prime
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10 son tokens to gild a pet from son feels way too high. Particularly when he's the only vendor who doesn't have an alternate farming method. I can get fish and mining parts from reactive crystals or ISO vaults, but son tokens require me to either be out conserving or ranking up a ton of sly vulps (Which I need to do at least conserving for).
I actually like conservation, but it seems wrong to hide 6 pets worth of MR behind such a heavy tranq rifle grind.

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Can the requirements for grandmother token not so RNG? For example she has 5 sets of tokens but each set all need father tokens, and the game can't produce so much father token at the same time, thus making players unable to get all the grandmother tokens at that time and have to wait....

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