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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


SilverBones

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So I went into the Cambian Drift with no knowledge of how anything worked.  After the horrible, broken introduction quest I proceeded to do a couple of newbie bounties and then ran back to Mother..  It was pretty difficult to understand the new token system, coming from ALL the other factions where you get standing for doing stuff.  Why you decided to make a 3rd zone that is similar to two others and yet make it work in a completely different manner is strange...

Bounties only give mother tokens....

Father I forget what he wants...

Daughter gives tokens for fish guts 

Son gives tokens for animal tags

Otak/Loid gie tokens for minerals

But there is no direct acquisition of standing...  And the tokens for everyone come in bundles of 1-5 that take various amounts of things to purchase.  We have to spend all the stuff we farm to unlock things, making it take so much longer to get stuff.  If you wanna tweak the economy of Deimos I would drastically decrease how much resources tokens cost.  1 tag per critter,  1 mineral per type,  1 fish part per type.   Not give us 8 dogs and 4 kats for a stupid token worth 100-500 standing.  Or hey go mine rocks or spear fish and and then blow all those rares on a stupid token.  

But even if you reduced the cost of tokens, you really destroyed something special Cetus/Fortuna have.  Newbies do bounties to get those special mods, or debt bonds.  Veterans go hunting/fishing to have fun grinding up standing.  That does not exist in the cambian drift.  You do bounties or your #$%%& out of luck.  You can really really grind fishing, mining or hunting for standing still thats true but its soooo much slower than just doing bounties.  Just 2 rounds of T2 bounties is 9k standing easy?  In that same amount of time you could maybe get 100-500 standing if that from hunting/fishing/mining.   It breaks my heart.   And the crap it takes to get tokens is constanty changing so you can even plan ahead.  If you went out trying to get the stuff it would take to get x5 tokens by the time you got back the list might have changed and the stuff you farmed is now meaningless.

Besides reducing the cost of tokens. I think it would help if instead of choices for multiple tokens,  there were tokens of higher value.  100 is for easy stuff.  1000 or tokens that take a little rarer stuff.  5k tokens for the ones that want really rare resources/items.   AND OR  Daughter/son/otak/father could be worth ALOT more than mother tokens. Since they take ALOT more work to get.   

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I got up to T2 bounties before I took my break.  Im already Rank 1, have every echolure except ONE,  Have most/all of the mining blueprints.  got the first fish spear.  I dont know what will be left to do from rank 2-5 lol except grind for no reason....  

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I havent figured out what the Necroloid takes to earn standing,  Something rareish?  Probably that top most bounty and your neckromech??  Im about to read through the patch notes.  

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Hunting was my favorite way to gain standing in PoE/OV and you guys destroyed it CD.....if that was your intention... good job.   I would take newbs into PoE/OV and introduce them to hunting and they would think it was soo cool.  Like every time... multiple people.  

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Scintillant. I've played all day, and have 0. It only drops from that one bounty? That's rough. And makes getting father tokens pretty hard. Which are crucial, as it seems the Necro want 20 per rank (at least, for the first 2 ranks), and Mother wants 10 for rank 2.

So yeah, Scintillant. 

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Scintillant drop rates need to be either increased to something like x5 or have their drop chance changed to common.

How can Father ask for 4+ for one token worth 100 rep when it take hours just to farm one? 

It feels like 3 different teams worked on this island's economy system without ever talking to each other

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9 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

Why in the gods' name is conservation, a system so universally hated and barely played that might as well be called "Lunaro 2: electric boogaloo" is a goddamn requirement to rank up? Worst still, You need 5 son tokens to rank up and I can't stress this enough:

Son might ask you to deliver tags from species you can't capture because you don't have a high enough rank to buy the lures.

Son might ask you to deliver tags from species you can't capture because you don't have a high enough rank to buy the lures.

Son might ask you to deliver tags from species you can't capture because you don't have a high enough rank to buy the lures.

Son might ask you to deliver tags from species you can't capture because you don't have a high enough rank to buy the lures.

Son might ask you to deliver tags from species you can't capture because you don't have a high enough rank to buy the lures.

 

Nobody likes any of these chores. DE is just playing to see how much platinum we'll spend to avoid godawful, skilless, monotonous choring.

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Please do not change the Token system. It makes standing much more bearable to farm, and it makes activities more varied. Apart form balance change, please, please, do not change it. I love it as it is. Love being able to stockpile them and being forced to get out of my routine.

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hace 11 horas, Voltage dijo:

This forced requirement to do conservation and mining is straight up bad. Let me do bounties and play Warframe to progress syndicates, not fishing, conservation, mining, or spending Platinum (to buy fish parts/gems/ores) to get these dumb tokens.

Remove Tokens

Remove Grandmother

Make this like PoE/Fortuna with multiple avenues for progression and just use standing. Stuffing non-combat activities down players' throats isn't fun.

The feedback that i would give exactly. Pointless complication of a straight foward system. The token system is not even well implemented by not allowing us to exchange X tokens from rule 34 fan art for Y tokens from rule 33 decision.

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On 2020-08-21 at 8:23 PM, [DE]Bear said:

f you have feedback to leave on the subject of the Entrati and Necraloid Syndicates, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the new content, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better

I like the tokens system in general, but I'm not playing this game for the conservation, I'm just not. I really don't want to spend hours doing that activity to rank up. I will, but I will be deathly bored by the time I've gotten anywhere.

Conservation is a fun little mini game, I know some folks that love it, but I want to shoot things.

I gave up last night (HoD finally landed around midnight) because Son tokens appeared unobtainable (they needed lures you couldn't get without reaching a rank you needed Son tokens to unlock) and apparently that's been fixed (hopefully, not been able to sign in and check yet). However, Son tokens are going to be a major pain point.

Please give us either:

- Some way to get Son tokens other than conservation (maybe a special Son bounty or a more expensive cost in dead animal parts).

- Or a way to convert Mother tokens that we get from doing the fun shooty stuff into the boring fishing and conservation ones. I'd happily pay 50 Mother tokens for 1 Son one.

- Or someone like Ticker in Solaris where you can spend resources for any tokens.

I love the variety in this game, I'm OK with the odd quest or every now and again being pushed into playing the content we don't usually play, but Riven unveiling and NW actions already do this.

Please, dear god please do not force us to grind conservation to progress.

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I’m enjoying the update so far, but I think the Entrati syndicate and more so, the Necraloid syndicate kind of stink to rank up with right now. I like the token system because it means I don’t waste any standing and end up with odd numbers, but I don’t feel like you get very many tokens. The Necraloid syndicate sucks because it feels VERY costly to rank up with them, and the only reliable way to get materials that you can trade for standing is to fight a Necramech in that one bounty, which only rewards one item worth 1K standing, and after you get enough standing to rank up the first time you have to give him 10 more of those pieces.

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*DE reveals their new, exciting helminth system, which could allow for massive amounts of player-creativity and make each warframe truly unique, or at least way more versatile*

"damn, that sounds amazing" 

*said system is locked behind the new open-world syndicate*

"eh, I dunno, maybe it'll still be fine? It looked like they learned from fortuna after all" 

*Standing gain is locked behind mind-numbing, repetitive minigames instead of bounties, with an extra slice of rng on top and ridiculous rank-up materials*

"Well then, there goes that" 

WTB helminth chrysalis junction

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Mother standing is great - keep this. Farming tokens to be handed in later is fantastic, so I can grind when I want to instead of having to daily.

The rest of the tokens are bad. Its a bad replica of the Ticker system. Ticker worked as it was an alternative and not a direct part of the rep grind.
Making mining/fishing/floofs a part of the main grind and locking off going up in ranks for fishing or conservation is not fun.
I play warframe to bullet jump around shooting as many things as possible, not to track down animals. Remove the daughter/son/father tokens from syndicate rank progression.
Use the tokens on son/daughter/father to buy specialist items directly related to them - conservation for pet stuff, fish for lures etc. These are side games that should be optional for the completionists and people that find them fun. Don't shoehorn them into the main progression line.

Son tokens require way too many captures right now for the tokens rewarded for the situation as it is right now. Re-balance this. 1-3 captures per token is acceptable. More than that is not fun.

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The token system in my opinion is totally fine, it gives the ability to still farm standing together with items from bounties, even after reaching daily cap. The only issue is that trade prices are a bit all over the place, and, generally, too high for both Daughter and Son. Father is probably the most balanced one, he asks for commonly available resources, and Otak is a bit on the pricey side, but manageable.

Having Grandmother provide more standing overall as a reward for engaging in multiple activities is definitely great, and will work flawlessly as soon as prices for tokens are fixed. 

I also don't see any problem with integrating some side activities into the rank up requirements- you'd still have to engage with those systems to get basically any reward from the landscape, so I really don't get those people who advocate keeping them outside of the main "progression path", since they are already integrated in getting the new weapons, frame, and companions.

Overall, good job DE. It's one of your greatest updates so far, tons of content, breathtaking new assets and environments, cool new game systems, and, especially, incredible new enemy units.

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I think the Necraloid syndicate is the best launch operator syndicate yet. I say that because the vaults are a consistent way to acquire the syndicate currency, and their immense worth is greatly appreciated for leveling up the syndicate.

I think the Entrati syndicate economy is a huge step back and has missed the mark. From what I gather, the point of all the tokens was to be able to accrue stockpiles of reputation while you were already at your daily cap. This was already possible even on the launch of Plains of Eidolon, as you could always trade gems and fish for standing and could stockpile those items.

In addition, Ticker was a fantastic feature with Fortuna. He allowed you to acquire significant standing by only exploring the Orb Vallis and not requiring that you complete bounties. The Entrati are significantly worse off for having every member act as a Ticker. It is unfortunate because the mother tokens are the only guaranteed currency, whereas every other members' random stocks are harder to complete.

Basically, I'm just not sure why we needed to add a convoluted layer of tokens to this syndicate. It just seems like an unnecessary middle-man required to rep up, and the cycling inventories end up hurting the intended "stockpile" feature.

I'm unaware of feedback surrounding Fortuna's syndicate, and maybe I should have provided my own when it released, but that was the best implementation of open world reputation so far. It carried the already existing and superior stockpiling from the Plains of Eidolon (in mining and fishing) and added Ticker for a way to circumvent content and still grind reputation.

The Entrati system is a step back, and honestly the inclusion of the tokens under the guise of a stockpile seems like another attempt to gate players from progression. If I wanted to, I could fish all of my standing in Orb Vallis or Plains of Eidolon and come back and max my daily limit in seconds even on day 1 of their releases. With Entrati, I am left to the whim of the cycling inventories to make use of "stockpiling resources" or having to farm mother tokens from bounties.

I generally play bounties for the first day of an open world and it becomes too buggy and repetitive. This causes me to just fish or mine, which I actually enjoy doing, and circumvent bounties.

P.S.: It's not a huge deal that we require blueprints for ranking up the syndicate, but it seems weird. I appreciate not having to create the part similar to the 6 original syndicates, but it seems kinda like the blueprints are their to add just the extra bit of annoyance to ranking up Entrati.

And again, Necraloid is far superior due to the condensed reputation currency and its massive value, ontop of being able to consistently stockpile the items.

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Why would you add basic mining resources like ores from other open worlds as a crafting material to the new open worlds mining system ? I have over 900 Fersteel Alloy and now you are telling me i have to go to the plains of eidolon and mine for ferros so that i can craft devolved namalon from the new open world ? No thanks i'm not gonna do that. Make son and daughter tokens much easier to obtain or remove them from syndicate requirements all together. Fix cutting fish its not giving any resources to buy tokens. Fix some bounty rewards not dropping at all. Remove other open world resources requirements from deimos

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I gave it another two hour try late last night and then s,ept on it before posting.

The token system is actually a solid idea as it allows you more time flexibility in time spent playing and can turn in things when you want. 

Need to report that the "daughter" dialogue was very buggy for me.  Skipped a lot.

The ONE thing you could do that would squelch 85% of the legit gripes is to remove forced conservation from the equation of ranking. 

What you've  done, DE, is put out a commercial for a new toy in Helminth that IS very appealing.  But the one big draw to this update that the vast majority are interested in can't be obtained without being forced to play unrelated material which happen to not have anything to do with fighting as a space ninja and also happen to be things we have done a million times before (we are bored of drilling for rocks, playing hunting simulator and catching boots while being shot at by locals).  
 

Take the conservation out of the equation.  I'm pretty sure almost every player happens to mine or fish at certain times of various reasons but conservation is something that, unless you get a kick out of it, you absolutely hate it. It fails to tie into the game in any sense beyond getting floofs and the trophy (which only trophy hunters care about...it's very rare).  
 

If you do that, people are not going to feel so put off by the time it takes to get to the main part of the update that people want to invest their limited time into.  Do that and people WILL spend time in the new world.  It seems like you guys want to legislate huge "time played in the new zone" numbers to justify your update every time you launch something instead of just letting us come to the party.  People inherently do not like being told they  have  to clear their plate of peas and carrots before they can have dessert.  We came here to have fun, not work.  Sometimes we want to eat dessert first. 

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This is DE's typical 2 tiered layer cake of obfuscation.

Remember Void Keys? Remember having to Farm a Mission in order to Farm another Mission To get the parts we want?
now we have Relics, which we have to farm missions to farm relics to get the parts we want?
Now we have to farm Greebles, exchange those greebles for greeblets, in order to turn in greeblets for what we want.
This is made worse in the Case of the Daughter where we must acquire Greeblongs, cut the Greeblongs into Greebles, Exchange the Greebles for Greeblets in order to get what we want. 

EDIT 1: DE must think Obfuscation and Complication or over-complication makes for exciting mechanics and edifying content.
It's tedium meant to lengthen the circumference of the hamster wheel, while we pull the lever of the skinner box.

EDIT 2: TO be clear, I like the mechanics of Fishing itself, I like the mechanics of mining itself, I like Conservation. but their interplay with Syndicate this time is completely overwrought.

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DE, don't be sad with some comments actually the token system was confusing at first, but after a quick analysis you can understand. You are not obliged to do anything, you just have to explore cambion, it is not a big place and it is quite easy to find the necessary items (you can get them and don't even notice sometimes) I found it much better than Cetus and fortune (after all, orokin is greedy)

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So I do missions for badges that are almost worthless so I can MAYBE trade in a random collection of them to Grandmother for a badge that is MARGINALLY better than the sum of the badges traded in for it but also sometimes worth less than the badges traded in (glitch or noob trap?) and that's how you get standing....

Why? What necessitated this kind of drastic shift from the established method of acquiring standing? Not only is this unnecessarily convoluted, but no one explains this to you and it's extreme overwhelming to wrap your head around all of it if you're use to the older system. 

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8 hours ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

I came here to make a similar post, and you nailed it. 

For my own thoughts, the token system isn't necessarily bad, but the difference here and with Fortuna is getting debt bonds from Ticker was another way to get standing. Here, we only have tokens to obtain standing. If the bounties awarded standing and tokens it would be tremendously better. Heck everything from Fortuna/Cetus is better than what we have currently. 

Not only you can buy them from Ticker, you earn the bonds from regular bounties. No fishing, mining or conservation crap.

I wanna play WF not fishing or hunting simulator.

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8 hours ago, ReadyPlayerSix said:

Here's the thing: no one is *forcing* you to do anything in this game. If you don't like it, then simply don't do it. Warframe is a game full of different content, no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to rank up with the new syndicate. 

The "gun to head" excuse is never valid. No, nobody is holding a literal gun to my literal head literally forcing me to play the Heart of Deimos. Nobody is forcing me to play Warframe in the first place. This argument is entirely irrelevant, however, in a Live Service this heavy with incentive mechanics. The Heart of Deimos is the new, much-advertised piece of content. If I want to engage with it, I have to take part in all of the activities, because the only way to progress through the Entrati syndicate is to do extensive mining, fishing and conservation activities. And not just run those activities, but run them to their full extent, because the Token trading system requires a wide range of gems, fish parts and conservation tags.

Moreover, the "gun to head" excuse misses the point entirely. The content isn't the issue. I'm not actually averse to mining, fishing or conservation. That's exactly what I'm doing right now. Believe it or not, I'm capable of seeing flaws in a system even if I'm personally not affected by them. The issue people have here is with the progression system, not the actual content. The "gun to head" excuse would work better if people were able to progress through the Heart of Deimos by running some but not all content, exactly how we can through Cetus and Fortuna. Maybe then you can argue that "Warframe is a game full of different content" - when we have the choice to run only some of it.

Again - Nightwave should have taught us this exact thing. Not a single player exists who enjoys everything the game has to offer. Tying different types of content together rather than making them alternatives of each other is a mistake. There's no benefit to it for people who like to do all the content (we'd do it regardless), it only serves to upset and waste the time of people who don't like doing all the content and it ultimately represents an unpopular progression system. As I've said before - Warframe is a genuinely good game consistently undermined by its own progression systems. The Antrati syndicate is a prime example of this.

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