Wukong's Cloud Walker

[-CM-Harbinger]

So i just logged in after a week of break, and noticed that wukong's cloud walker speed had been nerfed by a significant amount. 

Was that nerf realy necessary?

How will that improve gameplay?

Making speed build irrelevent is good, how exactly?

[Drachnyn]

A typical DE "fix", they consider sprint speed affecting the cloud a bug. One of the ways to achieve high speed with cloud walker was fixed months ago, this is the second fix to it but this time without even giving us a patchnote. It really is unfortunate because it also opened up build variety to wukong. The more you valued speed, the more you had to trade off raw ability stats for sprint speed.

Effectively it made me throw wukong out of my loadout list. No reason to use him now.

[-Niczu-]

I actually had spent plat to some additional config slots for spy and rescue missions, now those configs are pretty much useless. I ain't gonna support this game by buying plat etc anymore until this is reverted, not that I have high hopes for that.

[DeMonkey]

5 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

A typical DE "fix", they consider sprint speed affecting the cloud a bug.

They fixed that back in January, alongside stopping you sprinting into the cloud.

The recent fix stopped sliding from helping.

[-CM-Harbinger]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

They fixed that back in January, alongside stopping you sprinting into the cloud.

The recent fix stopped sliding from helping.

the sliding and the parazon speed buff after hacking. but for some reason, it feels a lot slower even without the buffs. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

7 minutes ago, -CM-Harbinger said:

the sliding and the parazon speed buff after hacking. but for some reason, it feels a lot slower even without the buffs. 

Its possible that sprint speed in general affected its speed, and by removing any sprint additions the cloud is now at base speed for the first true time

[CopperBezel]

Nope, we tested that back in January, sprint speed mods have not applied since then.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2020-08-22 at 2:34 AM, Drachnyn said:

A typical DE "fix", they consider sprint speed affecting the cloud a bug. One of the ways to achieve high speed with cloud walker was fixed months ago, this is the second fix to it but this time without even giving us a patchnote. It really is unfortunate because it also opened up build variety to wukong. The more you valued speed, the more you had to trade off raw ability stats for sprint speed.

Effectively it made me throw wukong out of my loadout list. No reason to use him now.

Huh

so, if they made Cloud Walk speed Unaffected by your Sprint Speed

then... shouldn't they also make it Unaffected by Hobbled Dragon keys?

 

 

..well, I guess Derelict is going away anyway, So I'll never have to deal with it again...

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-08-22 at 10:26 AM, -CM-Harbinger said:

Making speed build irrelevent is good, how exactly?

Well according to Pablo, it means players can't "skip content". Don't ask him how making it slightly slower somehow fixes that and why he didn't remove the ability entirely if that was the case, he won't explain and neither will the rest of DE. Also don't point out that a number of other frames are just as fast Cloud Walker and have abilities that can be classed as being able to "skip content", as that won't get you anywhere either.

It's one of those beautiful examples of DE deciding to nerf something literally on a whim for no logical reason. Its become a habit at this point.

[Kaiune]

12 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

..well, I guess Derelict is going away anyway, So I'll never have to deal with it again..

Derelict keys are already gone Dragon keys are likely here to stay for now to get corrupted mods and riven tests. 

[Pzykdruhgs]

Didn't realize there was already a thread

Edit: Their conclusion in that thread:

Quote

 

LascarCapable:

If you cannot find any trace of that change in the patch notes, it should be considered as a bug and reported as such.

Closing.

 

Ok but that doesn't mean you can't incorporate it as a gameplay mechanic if people liked using it.

 

[selig_fay]

10 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Also don't point out that a number of other frames are just as fast Cloud Walker and have abilities that can be classed as being able to "skip content", as that won't get you anywhere either

You know. It was a nerf because it became too popular a choice. DEs don't like it when something gets too popular. On the other hand, the "just buff others" logic won't work here. The cloud is invulnerability and invisibility + high vertical mobility. 

Vertical mobility is Titania, but it does not have invulnerability and invisibility. Gauss is nearly invulnerable, but not invisible. Wisp is invisible, but not invulnerable. I think Gauss is closest to Wukong Cloud, but these are two abilities and that's his theme.

Moreover, the wukong has a clone that will detonate low-level items for you while you use the cloud. Do you know why Ember got the change.

[CopperBezel]

3 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

On the other hand, the "just buff others" logic won't work here.

It almost never does. I think the best examples have to do with mission modes, like Onslaught being introduced as an alternative to the dumb stealth affinity farming. When DE says, oopsie-daisy, we gave you a weapon that can kill any enemy in the game in .3 seconds, the solution is not to rework every weapon in the game to take .2.

[GREF_TM]

While i don't know how fast it was before nerfs, i think current speed of cloud walker is perfectly fine as is. I'd understand the complaint if it was as crappy as something like reave, but it's not even remotely close to that.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

On 2020-08-24 at 2:02 AM, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

..well, I guess Derelict is going away anyway, So I'll never have to deal with it again...

wrong

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Vertical mobility is Titania, but it does not have invulnerability and invisibility. Gauss is nearly invulnerable, but not invisible. Wisp is invisible, but not invulnerable.

But unlike Wukong, all of those frames you mentioned can kill enemies and interact with the world when using their abilities. Cloud Walker may give you invulnerability, but doesn't allow you to do anything while it's active. That was its balancing.

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Moreover, the wukong has a clone that will detonate low-level items for you while you use the cloud.

Yes. And how exactly does nerfing the speed of CW help with that whatsoever?

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Do you know why Ember got the change.

Yea, because she was nuking whole rooms before other people even got a shot off and she was annoying other players. That's why she was changed.

Completely different scenario to Wukong.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

But unlike Wukong, all of those frames you mentioned can kill enemies and interact with the world when using their abilities. Cloud Walker may give you invulnerability, but doesn't allow you to do anything while it's active. That was its balancing.

Yes, you cannot attack, but your clone is still active. And this is the reason why Wukong was one of the best at the speed run. You put aoe weapon, everything dies. And I'm not saying it's like saryn, who also has a speed buff. It's much, much faster. Well, now it is equivalent to razorwing speed, so I think the nerf is not strong but justified. 

You may not agree with me, but I'm just saying how I see it, taking into account the facts that I myself experienced.

[TheGodofWiFi]

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

You put aoe weapon, everything dies.

Again, tell me how a speed nerf fixes this? How is speed related in any way at all, to Wukongs ability to sit back and watch his clone nuke a room? 

The answer is that it isn't. That is the whole reason people were calling out Pablo on his non-logic of the ability allowing players to "skip content", because if it did, why not just remove it altogether? Or make it so that the clone disappears with you when you enter Cloud Walker?

A speed nerf solves absolutely nothing.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, tell me how a speed nerf fixes this? How is speed related in any way at all, to Wukongs ability to sit back and watch his clone nuke a room? How does speed relate to this at all?

The answer is that it doesn't. That is the whole reason people were calling out Pablo on his non-logic of the ability allowing players to "skip content", because if it did, why not just remove it altogether? Or make it so that the clone disappears with you when you enter Cloud Walker?

I am talking about one aspect of this ability. It is also healing. These are also easy spy missions. This is just as easy vertical movement that only Titania has, aside from the Wukong. And it was great speed. The Razorwing with perfect timing teleport could not catch up with the Wukong who was abusing it. And it's all just one button.

I explained the reason, it suppressed other frames. On the other hand, buffing others is not an option. Too much speed in a game is not a good combat concept.

[TheGodofWiFi]

28 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I explained the reason, it suppressed other frames.

So you've moved the goalposts from Wukongs clone, to his proficiency in Spy missions over others, in an attempt to try and find any sort of excuse to justify the nerf. Being good at a mission is not a good excuse for a nerf. 

The reason you just gave isn't even a reason, its a whimper of an excuse to try and justify something that was completely unnecessary. Titania has the benefit of being to cast all of her abilities and fire her guns while flying, Wukong does not have that. That is his offset for the speed. Being good at a mission is not a good excuse for a nerf. Wukong was faster, but Titania has free access to all her abilites and weapons and she can stay in her flight mode potentially forever.

Each frame comes with their own drawbacks and advantages (except Hydroid, who is nothing but drawbacks). That is the way it has been and it will always be. One frame being better than another at something else, does not mean it should be nerfed. This is not a valid reason.

28 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Too much speed in a game is not a good combat concept.

Cloud Walker is not a direct combat orientated ability. It is utility. 

Razorwing however, is combat orientated.

You haven't shown any real reason why CW needed a nerf to its speed. All you've done is blatantly move the goalposts from one point to another and it still doesn't work. You talked about his clone, I asked you how a speed nerf related to that issue and you just dropped it immediately in favour of pointing out he was good at Spy and was faster than Titania, which again is not a real reason.

Cloud Walker's speed affected nothing negatively. It allowed him to be faster than other frames and better at certain missions, yes. But again, there are missions where Wukong does not shine but other frames do. Limbo is the king of Mobile Defence, normal Defence and Spy missions (thanks to the nerfto CW), Inaros and Nidus are the dual kings of Survival, Baruuk's Exalted melee is the best of its type in the game, Volt and Gauss are the kings of speed-running Capture missions in less than a minute. Should we nerf all of them as well, since they're suppressing other frames? No, obviously not.

The speed nerf was completely unnecessary, unjustified and solved nothing. Thanks for continuing to prove that.

[selig_fay]

11 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Cloud Walker's speed affected nothing negatively

As I said, it influenced the opinion of the players. When the gauss was released, people said "mmm, monkey". And you know why. Gauss can ignore CC, but he still takes damage and has no vertical mobility. And his speed was weaker than Wukong's with bug. That's why. Add to this the fact that collisions with objects have almost no effect on you. More precisely, in fact, nothing affects you. Let me remind you that Titania, when it collides with objects, play knockdown animation where you cant use shift. And you still have to walk around objects and holes as gauss, because again, there is no vertical mobility.

16 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Thanks for continuing to prove that.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

[-CM-Harbinger]

When comparing warframes, its important to compare the entire arsenal (all abilities), rather than just that one ability.

Sure, Cloud walker gave you invurnability, invisibility and a little speed if you used speed build.

Wich frames have those properties? I might have missed some frames, but see below.

Speed: Volt, gauss, titania, wisp.

Invurnability (endless): Limbo... 'Nuff said!

Invurnability (temporary): well you could count all the shield frames with shield gating build as temporary invurnable, and also rhino, revenant, harrow, etc.

Invisibility: Loki, ash, ivara, wisp.

All those mentioned warframes, has a higher level of those properties. So at this point, in my opinion, wukong is not best at any.

But you cant stop here. You must compare the rest of the abilities, to see if wukong is bad or not. 

Volt: can nuke entire maps, has one of the highest speeds in the game, used for eidolon hunts as one of the meta frames, etc etc...

Gaus: can nuke entire maps in low level missions (used often for fissure farming), also one of the top speed frames, has an amazing dmg reduction ability that trumps wukong 100x over, high 4th ability will improve all your abilities, and also increase fire rate. 

Limbo: only his passive will surpass the invurnability of wukongs cloud walker, you can also pass through lasers, same as cloud walker. but also, limbo is one of the best CC frames in the game. 

Loki: one of the best stealth frames, with radial disarm that is meta in many game modes, decay with augment that kind of makes him unkillable, and invisibility bonus dmg, just for the luls. 

No need to go through all the warframes, but the point is that, even if wukong had one rly good ability, the rest of his abilities are kind of worthless. specially in high lvl missions, or if you are doing long runs in arbies/steel path. 

Making the speed builds irrelevant, the only thing remains is your celestial twin build, wich kind of is useless in most missions.

That single tiny nerf that cloud walker got, ruined the entire warframe for many players.

 

[selig_fay]

17 minutes ago, -CM-Harbinger said:

That single tiny nerf that cloud walker got, ruined the entire warframe for many players.

If such a small thing can ruin a warframe for players, then I doubt that these players need this warframe. In the end, if Inaros gets a HP nerf but gains useful abilities, it will ruin him too for many players. On the other hand, Wukong was not focused on speed, he was focused on survival. The cloud is a great survival ability. And it's still effective for a speed run, it just won't be as fast as it used to be.

17 minutes ago, -CM-Harbinger said:

Invurnability (temporary): well you could count all the shield frames with shield gating build as temporary invurnable, and also rhino, revenant, harrow, etc.

Shields grant unkilleble, not invulnerability. These are two different things. You keep taking damage and CC.

Yes, other frames also have some aspects of the cloud, but the bottom line is that you have it all in one button.

[TheGodofWiFi]

39 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

When the gauss was released, people said "mmm, monkey". And you know why. Gauss can ignore CC, but he still takes damage and has no vertical mobility. And his speed was weaker than Wukong's with bug. That's why.

Again, you still act like Wukong being better at things than other frames is a reason for his nerf. It isn't and I've already shown why that logic simply does not apply.

While Gauss could take damage whereas Wukong couldn't, he had a damage reduction that could reach 100%, which automatically makes him better than Wukong in that regard. So that's one advantage he over the monkey. He can also strip armour and he can boost his damage output with his fire-rate buff from Redline, which allows for more powerful builds that don't need to make use of fire-rate mods. Wukong cannot do these things.

Also bugs do not count as they are be definition bugs.

Just to point out again; Cloud Walker's freedom of movement is still superior to Mach Rush due to the mechanics of it. The speed nerf did not change that. Just like how the speed nerf didn't change his ability to sit back watch his clone nuke the place while giving it free health constantly. So once again; pointless. Going slightly slower fixes nothing.

So what if when a new frame releases people go "mmm, something else". People do that all the time. Grendel got that exact same reaction, yet you do not see anyone using that logic to nerf the frames that outshine him. Even when Wukong Prime came out, some people just said "mmm, Inaros" and just stuck to him. And the reason for that is because Inaros is better at surviving than Wukong. Shall we nerf him?

39 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

No. You're just talking to someone who calls weak excuses what they are.

You tried to blame Wukongs clone for the nerf, then you moved the goalposts to his superiority in certain areas over frames when that didn't work out for you, neither of which were valid reasons for a speed nerf. You try to defend something that is so obviously indefensible.

[-CM-Harbinger]

15 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

If such a small thing can ruin a warframe for players, then I doubt that these players need this warframe. In the end, if Inaros gets a HP nerf but gains useful abilities, it will ruin him too for many players. On the other hand, Wukong was not focused on speed, he was focused on survival. The cloud is a great survival ability. And it's still effective for a speed run, it just won't be as fast as it used to be.

I would imagine it would. 

Choosing to play a warframe is not only to fulfill the need of the mission, but also to do it in the way each person feel is most fun. For example: previous to wukongs rework, i used to use limbo for speed running spy missions. bypassing lasers etc. i also used a speed build, and it was quite fast specially after making a macro rather than spam ctrl+jump for bullet jumping (yes macros are allowed to be used in that way). After the wukong rework, there was no need for that macro, as using his ability would be the same as using the macro. the only drawback would be the duration of the ability, wich is fine for me and i assume most ppl.

Now if, as you said, reduce the HP of Inaros and give him more useful abilites, would make so that less ppl would use him. That depends on the abilities. Inaros with less HP + Useful abilities = Nidus. (my math is not that good though)

If they take Inaros (a good tank), and strip him of his HP and dont give him other tanky abilities, then i dont expect ppl to use him as a tank anymore. Thats why its not a good idea to compare wukong and inaros.

Wukong being a survival frame is now only his passive and cloud walker invurnability. That is not even worth having an entire warframe for in my opinion... its not fair for the players nor for the devs that are working on wukong.

Now i do imagine that they will do another rework for wukong, but nerfing him now, and wait for the rework that may or may not happen is not a good idea.