ArachnidOverlord Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 The thing about larva is that you need to build around it to get decent range. Otherwise you're stuck with an already obscenely low 12m radius. In order to make larva work "well" you need to build for range, overextended only brings it up to 22.8m. Considering the size of some maps there are times where even a max range build struggles to gather a reasonable amount of enemies. Which is why reducing the inherent range of larva is not a good idea. I for one would much rather the energy cost be bumped up, I think that would be a worthy nerf without totally butchering the ability into uselessness. Maybe to 30, 37.5 or even 50 base would be fine by me. Just please don't nerf the range, it requires a range mod to be useful even before a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Either it is overpowered, or it isn't. Either you nerf the base ability, or there is no need to. I can have Nidus and put Decoy on him - no problem. But I cannot have Loki and put Larva on him? Why? Forced diversity is discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitfesz Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Larva is already buggy as hell and the enemies oftem ragdoll in a 20m radius with 4G force in turns, or the enemies simply get stuck behind doors or bars. The augment is mandatory to have control over Larva to fix these issues, yet it's getting a nerf instead of a fix. Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArachnidOverlord Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 24 minutes ago, sitfesz said: Larva is already buggy as hell and the enemies oftem ragdoll in a 20m radius with 4G force in turns, or the enemies simply get stuck behind doors or bars. The augment is mandatory to have control over Larva to fix these issues, yet it's getting a nerf instead of a fix. Great. Yeah hopefully they realize that, maybe they'll end up leaving it alone (by not nerfing it) if enough people are heard. Maybe they'll even fix the bugs lol Same thing with Defy. It does not deserve a nerf because all it gives is survivability and it does not provide a damage increase. It should be left alone. And the same with Eclipse's damage resistance. Damage resistance that only works in darkness doesn't really deserve an even smaller cap, if you're dedicated enough to hide in the darkness the whole time you deserve that extra bit lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 DE: *reads this thread*. You know what he has a good point *nerfs range and increases energy cost*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArachnidOverlord Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 46 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said: DE: *reads this thread*. You know what he has a good point *nerfs range and increases energy cost*. Considering they're nerfing a bunch of stuff before it even gets tested, yeah. They might actually do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterBurik Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 4 hours ago, ArachnidOverlord said: Otherwise you're stuck with an already obscenely low 12m radius. In order to make larva work "well" you need to build for range, overextended only brings it up to 23.8m. Overextended brings the Rank 3 12m radius to 22.8m. Spoiler Larva Radius Power Range Rank 0 Rank 1 Rank 2 Rank 3 100% (Base) 8m 9m 10m 12m 115% (Drift) 9.2m 10.35m 11.5m 13.8m 130% (Augur) 10.4m 11.7m 13m 15.6m 145% (Stretch) 11.6m 13.05m 14.5m 17.4m 160% (Stretch/Drift) 12.8m 14.4m 16m 19.2m 175% (Stretch/Augur) 14m 15.75m 17.5m 21m 190% (Overextended) 15.2m 17.1m 19m 22.8m 205% (Over/Drift) 16.4m 18.45m 20.5m 24.6m 220% (Over/Augur) 17.6m 19.8m 22m 26.4m 235% (Over/Stretch) 18.8m 21.15m 23.5m 28.2m 250% (Over/Stretch/Drift) 20m 22.5m 25m 30m 265% (Over/Stretch/Augur) 21.2m 23.85m 26.5m 31.8m 280% (All Four) 22.4m 25.2m 28m 33.6m In case anyone forgot (or is unaware) of what a "Radius" is: Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGuyver Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Increasing the cost wouldn't offset much with how the energy economy works in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArachnidOverlord Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 1 hour ago, TheGuyver said: Increasing the cost wouldn't offset much with how the energy economy works in the game. Increasing the energy cost means you're more likely to need something that can output energy like zenurik, equilibrium, rage, sharpshooter etc. So you'd be more likely to need to change your build to use larva which will decrease your effectiveness in some way other. I'd rather no nerf to larva but since they're insisting on nerfing things before they can be even used by players I'd much rather it cost more energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klokwerkaos Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 Unlike the valkyr mains that are crying because 1/2 their kit is given up as valkyr, I'm a nidus main and I fully support other players having this ability and without nerfs, and this is his entire kit, it's literally the ONLY ability you might consider casting as nidus in all but 1 very specific scenario (endless survival which is also a pointless mode since it loses efficiency on reward output as soon as your weapons stop 1 shotting the enemy). If it really needs to be nerfed, yeah, increasing energy cost is probably a better bet because not all frames that are going to use this are going to be slotting range. I honestly feel that the valk mains that cried until DE nerfed warcry did it wrong. They should have been asking for a rework for valkyr, because yeah, half her kit is trash... asking other players to not get, or get a reduced version of warcry is BOGUS. I do feel that the way to address ability nerfs isn't to nerf them in terms of numbers, but just increase energy cost so they aren't spammable. This would really make a big difference in overall gameplay because the ability is still worthwhile, you just need to be more strategic with how you use it, and that's almost like thoughtful game design, which I mean, clearly the bar for DE is much lower than that and we can't expect them to make good choices about game design and progression since their track record seems to prove they are literally incapable of making good choice, but hey, what do I know? See the thing is... lets say this nerf with nidus is 99.99999% likely designed specifically to hurt protea... Well that's dumb. 1) just because something is good doesn't mean it should be nerfed, it means the trash needs to be buffed because that makes for more compelling game design and buildcraft 2) protea doesn't build much range anyway so that's kinda stupid 3) her turrets need to ramp up in damage... but the time they do they are already dead because if I'm in the team I already used my melee for a slide attack and busted the larva like a nice loot pinata. All in all this is the main issue: I'm not going to say DE doesn't play their own game, clearly they do, but they don't understand their own mechanics as well as the player base does and make constantly bad decisions regarding this. A classic recent example is the Xoris nerf. Literally didn't use it, had no dog in that race, and find it 100% stupid. The "claim" was that it upped the damage too much... which is just false. Other trash tier weapons put psuedo exalted weapons at much much higher damage. You think Xoris is broken on whiplaw? how about I show you my dual zoren stat stick, that thing just melts... and if i want to get combo back up it takes like .5 seconds. The only thing xoris did was make keeping combo easier and more efficient, and had they just nerfed the dispo on the riven because everyone was using it that would have at least been consistant and then you have a choice... which is... do I want less damage or slightly inconvenienced and do a ton of damage... but no, they didn't do that... they instead removed player choice. Another thing was the trinity nuke nerf. Everyone knew that trinity shouldn't be map wide nuking. But rather than simply capping what it could do, they removed the interaction entirely because they decided because reasons... which makes no sense... again removing player choice. I want to say I did get behind the catchmoon nerf, because that was done for the right reasons... A) it was busted B) again I had no dog in this race, wasn't using it because I could tell a nerf was inbound and it didn't provide the correct utility I want in a secondary C) it did actually remove player choice. This was a thoughtful nerf. It's literally the only one I can think of. The goal with DE seems to be to not let player progression happen, and instead to keep churning out stuff in the form of endless new grinds, rather than letting players have the freedom to do stuff and make meaningful choices. This is why there is for the most part, 1 melee build. 1 secondary and 1 primary build. You can argue there are 2 melee builds, but I'd say you're wrong based on the numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LascarCapable Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 I wouldn't call 12m low. It's very moddable. You can rank up that range to 21m with 175% power range (augur reach, stretch), which is a very large area. Gotta see how far the range will be brought down though. This is mostly a wait and see matter here. Increasing the cost could make sense. I can clearly see Larva going from 25 to 75 energy. But since literally everyone builds for energy sustain, even this may not be that great. Especially when you consider that Larva may indirectly help your energy economy by stacking everything at the same place and making sure you don't need to cast twice. On 2020-08-22 at 6:37 PM, ArachnidOverlord said: Increasing the energy cost means you're more likely to need something that can output energy like zenurik, equilibrium, rage, sharpshooter etc. So you'd be more likely to need to change your build to use larva which will decrease your effectiveness in some way other. I'd rather no nerf to larva but since they're insisting on nerfing things before they can be even used by players I'd much rather it cost more energy. Most builds contains a way to generate to spare energy with great effectiveness already. Zenurik is already the most used focus school. Rage is an extremely popular mod too that does wonders. There's also arcane energize who can get fairly insane. The sacrifice you're talking about is pretty much not a sacrifice, since it's the meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotis Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 En 22/8/2020 a las 11:59, ArachnidOverlord dijo: The thing about larva is that you need to build around it to get decent range. Otherwise you're stuck with an already obscenely low 12m radius. In order to make larva work "well" you need to build for range, overextended only brings it up to 22.8m. Considering the size of some maps there are times where even a max range build struggles to gather a reasonable amount of enemies. Which is why reducing the inherent range of larva is not a good idea. I for one would much rather the energy cost be bumped up, I think that would be a worthy nerf without totally butchering the ability into uselessness. Maybe to 30, 37.5 or even 50 base would be fine by me. Just please don't nerf the range, it requires a range mod to be useful even before a nerf. I strongly believe that the nerf comes from the fear of loot spot meta reemerging. Just in case you don't know /werent playign back then , back when we had void keys instead of the actual system of relics, there was a tactic of going in survival with a nekros, fast nova , vauban and either a trinity or buffing frame and camp a sewer tunel. Vauban used black hole thing , fast nova her thing etc end result : 1 void key = 30 prime parts for the 4 members. Nowdays this tactic is used to farm resources or endo by camping a tunnel or the like. If nekros ,hidroid or khora grabed larva... it could be problematic to say the least. En 22/8/2020 a las 13:11, sitfesz dijo: Larva is already buggy as hell and the enemies oftem ragdoll in a 20m radius with 4G force in turns, or the enemies simply get stuck behind doors or bars. The augment is mandatory to have control over Larva to fix these issues, yet it's getting a nerf instead of a fix. Great. Yep, reason why i realy didn't play around much with the frame tbh. En 22/8/2020 a las 15:25, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo: DE: *reads this thread*. You know what he has a good point *nerfs range and increases energy cost*. xD would be really funny and meme worthy tbh . En 22/8/2020 a las 17:08, TheGuyver dijo: Increasing the cost wouldn't offset much with how the energy economy works in the game. Don't be so sure about that, spamming it would be a lot harder or would need cordinated team hace 1 hora, LascarCapable dijo: wouldn't call 12m low. It's very moddable. You can rank up that range to 21m with 175% power range (augur reach, stretch), which is a very large area. Gotta see how far the range will be brought down though. This is mostly a wait and see matter here. My guess is they will put it at 10,8m ~ after all the complains they recived about the nerfed stuff they will go for "it's only 90% effective! don't worry". hace 1 hora, LascarCapable dijo: Zenurik is already the most used focus school It's the most ussed coz the rest are realy inferior and lack any real appeal with the expetion of Naramon that is good on melee only builds. hace 1 hora, LascarCapable dijo: Most builds contains a way to generate to spare energy with great effectiveness already. Zenurik is already the most used focus school. Rage is an extremely popular mod too that does wonders. There's also arcane energize who can get fairly insane. The sacrifice you're talking about is pretty much not a sacrifice, since it's the meta. I don't agree with you on the lack of impact this would bring. If they boost the energy to 50-75 , we are talking about a decent ammount of energy here, sure we regen crazy ammounts of energy per second or we quick tap the energy pizza and are at full but that in itself is a win (energy pizza = resource sink)... we bring a trinity ? also a win cause we create a need for that frame and people that othervise wouldn't try her will give her a shot (she so op it's actualy crazy they didn't hit her with another "rework" / "nerf ") etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)epicsting Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 You know on the workshop post, when they closed down the thread they said they would wait to neft things, after the community had the system for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArachnidOverlord Posted August 25, 2020 Author Share Posted August 25, 2020 11 hours ago, (PS4)epicsting said: You know on the workshop post, when they closed down the thread they said they would wait to neft things, after the community had the system for a while. I think I'd like this much better. If they're going to nerf this system least now (from what they seem to be saying) they won't do it like kitguns, which were nerfed a week after release. And they won't nerf it before even adding anything. They'll do it maybe after a couple months. That'll give plenty of time for the hype to calm down for them to see what really stands out instead of nerfing things that wouldn't have been a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokidus_Prime Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 On 2020-08-22 at 7:11 AM, sitfesz said: Larva is already buggy as hell and the enemies oftem ragdoll in a 20m radius with 4G force in turns, or the enemies simply get stuck behind doors or bars. The augment is mandatory to have control over Larva to fix these issues, yet it's getting a nerf instead of a fix. Great. They really need to just integrate the Larva Burst augment into the base ability. They could get rid of the piddle damage it does that no one cares about, just give us the QoL function shouldn't be locked behind an augment in the first place... I know it probably won't happen, but I can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 21 hours ago, kaotis said: I strongly believe that the nerf comes from the fear of loot spot meta reemerging. Just in case you don't know /werent playign back then , back when we had void keys instead of the actual system of relics, there was a tactic of going in survival with a nekros, fast nova , vauban and either a trinity or buffing frame and camp a sewer tunel. Vauban used black hole thing , fast nova her thing etc end result : 1 void key = 30 prime parts for the 4 members. Nowdays this tactic is used to farm resources or endo by camping a tunnel or the like. If nekros ,hidroid or khora grabed larva... it could be problematic to say the least. I'm confused ? This Strategy still works so why would it be a Problem now ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selig_fay Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 23 hours ago, LascarCapable said: Most builds contains a way to generate to spare energy with great effectiveness already. Zenurik is already the most used focus school. Rage is an extremely popular mod too that does wonders. There's also arcane energize who can get fairly insane. The sacrifice you're talking about is pretty much not a sacrifice, since it's the meta. This says a lot about the energy system... On the other hand, I don't think arcane energyze is good. Now it can give you 250 energy every 15 seconds under !ideal conditions! But we don't always have ideal conditions. On the other hand, in 15 seconds you get 75 + energy orb bonus always with zenuric. And Arcane energyze loses because it is an RNG that starts an RNG with cd versus constant regeneration. It's good that we now have Trinity 1 and a dispenser as an alternative, because arcane energyze was the only way for thin builds with energy drain abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaotis Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 hace 52 minutos, Lutesque dijo: I'm confused ? This Strategy still works so why would it be a Problem now ? It works but you need more preparation. If they didn't nerf larva , it would be a 1 man show and the overall interaction betwen players would diminish. I belive it's a move to not lose player interaction more than it's overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, kaotis said: It works but you need more preparation. If they didn't nerf larva , it would be a 1 man show and the overall interaction betwen players would diminish. I belive it's a move to not lose player interaction more than it's overpowered. Makes Sense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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