The future of Chroma (rework suggestion - UPDATED)

[AkHannar]

So I have returned to the forums, checked some warframe rework ideas posts, and decided to revisit my own, since a few things have actually changed about Chroma in the meantime. I will be repeating some points from my original post, but if you are interested in reading it ( originally posted in August 2020), I have placed it in the Spoilers box below this one. Also, I pointed out back then how Chroma was my 2nd favorite frame, but since then I actually started maining the guy (this happened before Chroma received his update) - blame Oberon's suboptimal performance on Steel Path for that one (or at least my inability to make him work there). i changed the title of the discussion as well, since I am not really talking about Helmint now (and honestly I only mentioned Helmint like once originally anyway).

So first of all, let me remind everybody that this rework idea is not about upsetting Chroma's current role/ function in the game, or making him more powerful. It's about some QoL and making him more fun. That being said, Chroma actually got himself a passive. Personally it's not what I expected, but I'm not about to start complaining, since until now, he was only pretending to have one. 

1st Ability: Spectral Scream

As I explained in my original post, Spectral Scream can be salvaged... but only if it's changed signifficantly. The introduction of element cycling and switching it's focus from damage to status are a good step, but not enough to really make this ability worth it's slot. Spectral Scream needs to stop trying to compete with guns. It will never succeed there. Anything spectral Scream can possibly do, there are guns that do it better. I mean, why bother with Spectral Scream, if you can equip an Ignis or an Ignis Wraith? These two you can mod,, use ammo instead of energy, and actually benefit from Vex Armor Fury bonus.

Instead, I again suggest that Spectral Scream should become an instant cast ability (short but sweet), with a cone-shaped area that would be shorter than current Spectral Scream, but wider. It's primary focus should be status effects, therefore relatively low damage. Also, Vex Armor should totally synergize with Spectral Scream. Having a damage dealing ability on this guy that is not actually affected by VA just feels like breaking rules. However, that doesn't mean that Spectral Scream should have it's damage buffed by VA. Instead I propose that a formula is introduced that makes it so that VA Fury bonus increases Spectral Scream's status chance. I believe that a rank 30 Chroma with VA Fury bonus at around 600% should change the status chance of SS from 100% to somewhere between 230% and 270% percent. Perhaps somebody more experienced in game balansing would come up with a better number. Optionally, it could be that SS also gets only a portion of the damage buff from VA (apparently DE are afraid that SS will become OP if they just let it get buffed as normal - I have no idea where they are coming from with this...). Augment suggestion: The field that was covered by SS lingers as a hazard field for some time, dealing DoT to enemies that enter it, with half of the status chance that SS had when used (the lingering element does not change untill the field fades away).

In my original post I went into great detail about making this ability vastly different depending on the selected element. I still like that idea, and the variants I suggested, but now I even less believe that there are any chances of this ever happening, so I leave it in the archive :/

2nd Ability: Elemental Ward

Back in my original post i expressed confusion regarding the toxin variant. Now that I actually main Chroma I get where the use of it is, but I still feel like it's slightly out of place. Nevertheless, I am willing to leave it well alone, and instead suggest only one change to EW: make it recastable, with one limitation. Make it so that EW cannot be recast with the same element. Honestly the only reason I can come up with as to why EW was never allowed to be recastable is the healing you receive from the Heat variant. By making it so that players have to switch elements of the EW before being able to recast the heat variant, the energy cost will become prohibitive for spamming of EW, and thus problem solved. BONUS: accidentally activating EW with the wrong element is no longer screwing you over for however long the ability lasts in your build. You just wasted some energy instead.

3rd Ability: Vex Armor

As I explained in my original post - I have no criticizms regarding how VA currently works. This ability is actually well balanced, giving Chroma a lot of power and tankiness, but offset by the buildup, energy cost, duration, and limited coverage. No changes needed.

And serously DE - please stop humiliating Spectral Scream and let it scale in some, ANY capacity with VA. I know it's still a bad ability in it's current state, but have mercy on the poor thing. Having only one of Chroma's natural abilities actually scale with VA feels very wrong... If it wasn't for the forums I would actually believe that this a bug that you refuse to fix...

4th Ability; Effigy

First change - merge the augment into the actual ability, and then some. On tap, Chroma deploys Effigy, and it follows Chroma around, like a bigger sentinel. On hold, Effigy is deployed and moves to the point marked by Chroma's reticle. If a moving friendly (like other players, pets, sortie defense target, rescue mission target etc.) is pointed to, Effigy follows them. All other effects of Effigy we currently have in the game remain intact.

Second change: Effigy gets deployed with the currently selected element on Chroma (considered Element 1 - this one doesn't change until Effigy is deactivated). Hitting Effigy with a Spectral Scream introduces Element 2 - this one can be changed by Chrom changing his selected element and using SS on Effigy again. If Element 2 is different than Element 1, Effigy's damage is changed to the combined element made of the two. No damage bonus or anything, just element change.

Augment change: have Effigy be replaced with a Dragon Form ability that will have Chroma sprout wings, and fly around. No archwing manuvers, just flight. Chroma constantly moves forward in this mode, in the direction pointed by the camera, slighttly altered by whether the player is holding jump or crouch to ascend/ descend, or left and right - this would make circling targets around more doable. Why circle targets? Because in this mode, Chroma can hold the fire button to spew out his elemental damage like how SS currently works (just a more convenient way to use it). Also, the reason why pressing the button is necessary is because Chroma's energy doesn't drain just from flying, but instead from the breath attack. A fun little mechanic that allows the players to learn how to best conserve energy while getting the most out of the attack. Finally - EW and VA do not get interrupted by entering this form, but they cannot be cast while in it. 

Any of you who had enough patience to read through this, let me know what you think :)

Spoiler

 

Hey all, and greetings from Poland.

It seems that due to the years of Warframe ever developing and changing, Chroma was left a little in the dust regarding his own growth. The lizard boy is starting to show his age, and I'm afraid that it may not be in a good way. And btw - this is coming from someone who considers Chroma his 2nd favorite frame. 

At first look, Chroma seems to be trying to unite two concepts: a dragon and an elemental. However, when you play him for a while you will see that he is much more of a weapon damage amplifier, with a dragon-shaped turret. Nothing about his kit makes you ever feel like a dragon, and his elemental side is only used in any significant manner for one of his ablilities. His one claim to fame is Vex Armor - the ability that amplifies his armor and cranks up the damage numbers of your weapons to ridiculous levels (if you play it right). The other ablilities often go unused, and his 1st ability is downright useless, mostly due to the fact that it tries to compete with guns. You may want to say that he at least has a unique mechanic - the capability to change his ability element, depending on his emissive color, but that too has been adapted to other frames in some way, with augments like Chromatic Blade and now with the Helminth System. This post is written a little before the system actually launches, but the lack of a dev note next to Elemental Ward (which is confirmed to be subsumable) and the dev note explaining that the effect of  Equinox's Rest or Rage will depend on the energy color, I have no reason to believe that Elemental Ward will work any differently on other frames, than it does for Chroma. This makes this unique mechanic, not all that unique all of a sudden and moreover, playing Chroma right now feels kind of boring. 

With this, I would like to present my suggestion for a possible rework for good 'ol minizilla, that would not really make Chroma more powerful, but hopefully more fun.

Passive:

Currently Chroma's passive is the fact that his emissive color dictates his ability element (with heat, cold, electric and toxin to choose from) - nothing more. This is simply put, not enough. Note that Baruuk also has a unique mechanic to him, but his passive is not limited to it - on top of his Restraint mechanic, Baruuk's passive also includes a damage reduction based on his Restraint. Thus my suggestion is that Chroma should have a small resistance to the damage of the element he has currently selected, maybe with a small chance to resist status effect of this element. This will not make Chroma unkillable, as he can only choose from the aforementioned 4 elements, and can only have one equipped at a time, plus the balancing would be dependent on the exact numbers, I suppose.

 

1st ability:

In it's current state, the Spectral Scream is not worth it's slot (I imagine that a lot of Chroma players will replace it with something the first chance they get). I have two suggestions for what could be done with Chroma's 1st ability slot.

Suggestion 1:

Fix Spectral Scream. No, I'm not joking, this ability can be fixed and made viable to some extent. First of all, the fact that it's a channeling ability is a problem. It takes a long time to deal decent amount of damage, and you will get nowhere with it unless you have Vex Armor on. It also takes too long if you are trying to use it to deal status procs. You can use melee along with it, but the damage and status it adds is not enough to really bother. Therefore, I suggest that Spectral Scream should be an instant cast ability, with a burst of damage in a cone-shaped area in front of Chroma (with status procs, of course). Being instantly cast, it will no longer be in conflict with gun use - you just drop it and get back to shooting. Also, being inspired by some old youtube videos about Chroma, I believe that this ability could have dual use - cast Spectral Scream on hold, and switch elements on the fly with tap (similar to Ivara's Quiver or Vauban's Minelayer). This would elevate Chroma's core mechanic, and create an interesting level of defensive strategy with my proposed passive.

Suggestion 2:

Have you ever felt like it's a bit of a shame for Chroma to have only one ability where his element of choice mattered in any signifficant way? Well, I have. And therefore I propose that his 1st ability is also very dependant on his currently equipped element. As such the ability (which I refer to as Elemental Outburst - due to not being able to come up with something better) would have 4 variants:

Variant 1: Arctic Trample

Chroma covers himself in a layer of ice, and charges forward. This ability would of course cause cold damage and status, and knock down enemies Chroma rushes through. This would have the longest range, but only in a straight line. It wouldn't require a target to cast, and the hitbox would be limited to Chroma's body, as to prevent this from being too easy to wipe out enemies in corridors.

Variant 2: Fire Breath

Unimaginative name aside, this ability would basically work the same way, as my suggestion for fixing Spectral Scream, explained above, with medium range in relation to other variants of this ability. The width of the cone could be also dictated by ability range.

Variant 3: Electric Discharge

Chroma bursts out in a sphere of electric storm, damaging and paralyzing any enemy nerby. This would have a short range, but have a 360 degree radius, making it great for dealing with a group of melee enemies Chroma may be surrounded by.

Variant 4: Vicious Bite

Chroma grabs an enemy, sinks his claws into it and bites down, causing heavy toxin damage, and healing himself for a portion of the damage dealt. This ability would only target one enemy per cast, and of course would not be usable on boss-type enemies. 

As you can problably tell, the idea was to create several abilities with different types of coverage (with the last one having different utility than just damage), giving more factors to consider, when deciding what element to assign to your Chroma build. Another note: at one point I considered the 4 variant ability to also be connected with element switching (basically switching both element and ability like in Vauban's Minelayer) but after some thought I realized that this would be a little too much to ask for one ability.

 

2nd ability:

Elemental Ward. No, really - I think this is a good ability, and has some use. The only thing I would change is the Toxin variant, as whenever I look at the description of the Elemental Ward variants, and get to toxin, I can't help but hear that Sesame Street song "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong". With all due respect to anyone who was workng on this, it reeks of a deadline approaching and no ideas to complete the set. Since the electric Elemental Ward is more useful in how it affects the enemies than in how it affects Chroma, I suggest either having the enemies armor reduced (as Chroma could really use some armor stripping) or current health cut down by a percentage (to better match the toxin element), while they remain in the range of Elemental Ward (meaning that their values are restored, the moment they leave the range or the ability timer runs out). Also, if the switching elements on the fly is adapted, Elemental Ward should not change it's element along with the switch, and only one EW should be possible to cast at a time. 

 

3rd ability:

Vex Armor. Seriously - Vex Armor is actually really well balanced in itself. The incredible armor and damage increase are offset by the fact that you need to first build it up, and once you have it going, you need to ensure you have the energy to keep it running (as well as keep an eye on that timer), or loose the buffs and need to build them up back from scratch. So no changes needed.

 

4th ability:

I hear that there are some players who actually enjoy Effigy and therefore I think it can stay as it is for the most part. The changes I suggest involve merging the current augment into the basic ability, so that the Effigy can be instructed to move from point A to point B. Personally I would also suggest that on tap, the Effigy would follow Chroma like a big sentinel (giving Chroma more distance than a sentinel, of course), and maybe give Chroma the ability to make the Effigy foillow other allies on hold. The big change however, would be in a proposed augment for Chroma's 4. With this augment on, Choma would spread those elemental wings himself, and take flight. This would be considered a channelling ability, so energy restoration would not be so easy, it would prevent Chroma from casting other abilities, so extending Vex Armor in this form would not be possible (though it would, of course not dispell any already active abilities), and in this mode, Chroma would be constatnly moving forward in relation to the camera (with the ability to change the angle somewhat by using the left and right directions, as well as up and down by jumping and crouching respectively). Thing is, Chroma would not be draining energy simply by staying in this form - instead holding the fire button would cause Chroma to breathe out elemental damage, like the effigy does, and use energy that way. This would create a mechanic to have fun with, while learning how to best conserve energy by stopping the breath attack whenever Chroma needs to make a u-turn to realign with target etc. The flight speed would be tied to, but somewhat faster than sprinting speed, and no archwing manouvers, as this is not meant to be Titania 2.0 mode.

 

Sorry for the essay post, but hopefully it will spark some discussion.

 

 

[Lazarow]

Chroma is still good he is in no means bad, his role is buffing and nothing else. If all of his abilities are good then he may become too powerful

[AkHannar]

1 minute ago, Lazarow said:

Chroma is still good he is in no means bad, his role is buffing and nothing else. If all of his abilities are good then he may become too powerful

Which is why I pointed out that I want him to be more fun. I'm not asking for more power - the actual viability of the abilities in combat would more than likely be decided by the damage output and/or scaling. 

The reason why I didn't provide any numbers is that I don't know exactly what numbers would feel ok, without puting Chroma in the OP category. Also, please note that my suggested abilities have rather limited coverage.

[SireVisconde]

1 hour ago, Lazarow said:

Chroma is still good he is in no means bad, his role is buffing and nothing else. If all of his abilities are good then he may become too powerful

  The problem with chroma is that he doesn't stay true to his theme of a dragon slayer, being the undisputed king of one trick ponies. If the only thing that balances chroma is the fact that he has two useless abilities, then there is something inherently wrong here, dont you think?

  I like those ideas op, but years have passed, and i doubt that DE will want to change chroma, mostly because helminth will act as a bandaid. I'd add that, his 2 and 3 could be merged into a single ability, "Vexing ward" or something along those lines. They could nerf its numbers to make more room for the balance of the other abilties, and make Vexing Ward scale multiplicatively with the number of allies in range, maybe, make "Vexing ward" have Ack & Brunt's Electromagnetic shielding effect affected by chroma's range, so its much more reliable to build up your buffs.

 Maybe, holding m1 while you cast Spectral Scream turns the wide, status inflicting breath into a singular laser, similar to wisp's Sol Gate, Shin Gojira style, perhaps enhancing its damage, or ticks of damage per second.

[CopperBezel]

I really like this whole concept. There's nothing OP in it, and it actually sounds fun to play. Chroma is a frame I've paid little attention to since he's a damage boost and nothing else. This version, I can actually see using his entire kit, and yet it still lets Vex Armor be his focus and doesn't change his identity as a frame.

2 hours ago, AkHannar said:

Passive:

Currently Chroma's passive is the fact that his emissive color dictates his ability element (with heat, cold, electric and toxin to choose from) - nothing more. This is simply put, not enough. Note that Baruuk also has a unique mechanic to him, but his passive is not limited to it - on top of his Restraint mechanic, Baruuk's passive also includes a damage reduction based on his Restraint. 

This is unfortunately not an "old frame" problem, since Grendel is the same - his "passive" is activated by his 1. Gauss narrowly escapes this, since his battery is 99% a feature of other abilities, but it does include a truly passive shield regen boost.

[AkHannar]

 

3 hours ago, TheMightyDungeonMaster said:

  The problem with chroma is that he doesn't stay true to his theme of a dragon slayer, 

Is it just me, or can you put 2 people in a room and get 3 opinions on what Chroma is supposed to be? Although funny enough, I noticed the Dragon Slayer thing only when I got Chroma Prime and took a look at how his helmet looks with the Effigy dropped (kind of resembles a medieval knight's helmet).

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

This version, I can actually see using his entire kit, and yet it still lets Vex Armor be his focus and doesn't change his identity as a frame.

That was my goal exactly. I'm not trying to upset Chroma's role or anything like that. I'm just suggesting how to make him more fun. In my opinion, in Warframe fun is more important than power. If you struggle with something, you can get a team and effectively quadruple the damage. But if the mechanics you are stuck with are boring, gameplay becomes a chore (or you simply switch frames). I haven't yet played Grendel, but from what I can tell he is a strong frame, and since his 1-3 abilities deliver on the power already, DE allowed Grendel to focus his 4 on goofy fun - why not do something like that with Chroma? My suggestion for Chroma's 4 augment is not about making him obliterate level 150 heavy units in seconds - it's about making the player feel like a darn dragon! - on that note I also forgot to add in my original post that maybe a melee attack with dragon claws could be added to the dragon form augment for additional energy cost.

[PanMatter]

On 2020-08-22 at 5:55 PM, AkHannar said:

It seems that due to the years of Warframe ever developing and changing, Chroma was left a little in the dust regarding his own growth. The lizard boy is starting to show his age, and I'm afraid that it may not be in a good way. And btw - this is coming from someone who considers Chroma his 2nd favorite frame. 

At first look, Chroma seems to be trying to unite two concepts: a dragon and an elemental. However, when you play him for a while you will see that he is much more of a weapon damage amplifier, with a dragon-shaped turret. Nothing about his kit makes you ever feel like a dragon, and his elemental side is only used in any significant manner for one of his ablilities.

Yeah, Chroma didn't age fine, his kit is very clunky and as you told earlier it reflect his concept rather poorly.

 

On 2020-08-22 at 5:55 PM, AkHannar said:

Have you ever felt like it's a bit of a shame for Chroma to have only one ability where his element of choice mattered in any signifficant way? Well, I have. And therefore I propose that his 1st ability is also very dependant on his currently equipped element. As such the ability (which I refer to as Elemental Outburst - due to not being able to come up with something better) would have 4 variants:

I really like your idea for new 1st ability but I feel like every of 4 variants should be a different type of emission, like you done with heat and electricity. Also I would kill for an augment that allows Chroma to use combined elements too.

 

On 2020-08-22 at 5:55 PM, AkHannar said:

Elemental Ward. No, really - I think this is a good ability, and has some use. The only thing I would change is the Toxin variant, as whenever I look at the description of the Elemental Ward variants, and get to toxin, I can't help but hear that Sesame Street song "One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong". With all due respect to anyone who was workng on this, it reeks of a deadline approaching and no ideas to complete the set. Since the electric Elemental Ward is more useful in how it affects the enemies than in how it affects Chroma, I suggest either having the enemies armor reduced (as Chroma could really use some armor stripping) or current health cut down by a percentage (to better match the toxin element), while they remain in the range of Elemental Ward (meaning that their values are restored, the moment they leave the range or the ability timer runs out). Also, if the switching elements on the fly is adapted, Elemental Ward should not change it's element along with the switch, and only one EW should be possible to cast at a time. 

I think in this one a good option would be splitting variants into two defensive buffs and other two with more offensive buffs. For switching elements a termination of Elemental Ward would be a simpler solution.

 

On 2020-08-22 at 5:55 PM, AkHannar said:

Vex Armor. Seriously - Vex Armor is actually really well balanced in itself. The incredible armor and damage increase are offset by the fact that you need to first build it up, and once you have it going, you need to ensure you have the energy to keep it running (as well as keep an eye on that timer), or loose the buffs and need to build them up back from scratch. So no changes needed.

Changes in accumulation (but not only) of Scorn and Fury would be nice. The easiest would be swapping shield and health gains, another harder proposition would be gaining Scorn from taking damage and Fury from dealing damage (one reactive buff and other proactive buff to build up). Also we can go full elemental and change Fury buff to be pure elemental damage buff, depending on current element or we can just came back to multiplicative type of buffs.

 

On 2020-08-22 at 8:08 PM, TheMightyDungeonMaster said:

I like those ideas op, but years have passed, and i doubt that DE will want to change chroma, mostly because helminth will act as a bandaid. I'd add that, his 2 and 3 could be merged into a single ability, "Vexing ward" or something along those lines. They could nerf its numbers to make more room for the balance of the other abilties, and make Vexing Ward scale multiplicatively with the number of allies in range, maybe, make "Vexing ward" have Ack & Brunt's Electromagnetic shielding effect affected by chroma's range, so its much more reliable to build up your buffs.

I think the merge of Vex Armor and Elemental Ward isn't a good option, because a nerf would be a certain, thus making from two good abilities one mediocre.

[AkHannar]

11 hours ago, PanMatter said:

I really like your idea for new 1st ability but I feel like every of 4 variants should be a different type of emission, like you done with heat and electricity.

I suppose changing his trample into an ice projectile, that would do the same thing would mechanicly be identical, just with Chroma staying in place instead. Although I rather enjoy the idea of letting Chroma have two energy based and two physical abilities there. Also - no clue how I could repurpose the idea for toxin variant like that without making it look like a ripoff from Inaros.

11 hours ago, PanMatter said:

Also I would kill for an augment that allows Chroma to use combined elements too.

I think that giving Chroma the ability to simply equip the combined elements would be too much (especially on top of my suggested passive for Chroma), and it would mean needing 6 new variants for Elemental Ward. Buuuuuut... In my haste to finish the original post (as It ended up being much longer than I intended), I forgot to mention how I think that Chroma is severely lacking in ability synergy. That's probably because Vex Armor powers up everything Chroma does, but again - that's kind of boring. I was thinking that the ability to actively switch elements could mean that you could drop the Effigy with one element, and then switch to something else (with Effigy still keeping the element it was activated with). Now let me remind you that I intended for the element switching to be combined with a breath attack, and not with the variants. So picture this: You drop Toxin Effigy, switch to electric element, and hit the Effigy itself with electric Spectral Scream to make it switch elements to Corrosive. How does that sound? 🙂 Maybe this could also switch the elements of Spectral Scream itself depending on which Elemental Ward you have active (as it surrounds Chroma, so he would be breathing - for example - Cold, through a field of Electricity, making the breath into Magnetic). As a balancing thing, the entire element combining mechanic could be reserved to an augment for his 1.

11 hours ago, PanMatter said:

For switching elements a termination of Elemental Ward would be a simpler solution.

I think that the reason why DE are still making Elemental Ward not refreshable or cancellable is because they may be concerned about players spamming EW to get sheilds from electric, or health from heat. I'm not saying I share that concern (especially considering energy consumption with that idea), but note that Vex Armor used to be exactly the same in that regard, and to my recollection, people were asking for both EW and VA to become refreshable. Plus, if they gave him the element switching thing, keeping EW running after switching could have nice potential, as I described above. 🙂

[PanMatter]

On 2020-08-24 at 11:09 AM, AkHannar said:

I think that giving Chroma the ability to simply equip the combined elements would be too much (especially on top of my suggested passive for Chroma), and it would mean needing 6 new variants for Elemental Ward. Buuuuuut... In my haste to finish the original post (as It ended up being much longer than I intended), I forgot to mention how I think that Chroma is severely lacking in ability synergy.

Well chief, I would have objection to giving him access to combine elements, if he wasn't called in game "master of the elements". Like you are called "master" that mean you outstanding skills in something, right chief?

 

On 2020-08-24 at 11:09 AM, AkHannar said:

That's probably because Vex Armor powers up everything Chroma does, but again - that's kind of boring. I was thinking that the ability to actively switch elements could mean that you could drop the Effigy with one element, and then switch to something else (with Effigy still keeping the element it was activated with). Now let me remind you that I intended for the element switching to be combined with a breath attack, and not with the variants. So picture this: You drop Toxin Effigy, switch to electric element, and hit the Effigy itself with electric Spectral Scream to make it switch elements to Corrosive. How does that sound? 🙂 Maybe this could also switch the elements of Spectral Scream itself depending on which Elemental Ward you have active (as it surrounds Chroma, so he would be breathing - for example - Cold, through a field of Electricity, making the breath into Magnetic). As a balancing thing, the entire element combining mechanic could be reserved to an augment for his 1.

Combine elements as results of synergy? Hmm, okey this sounds as good way to give him more uniqueness. Now question is how exactly this synergy would looks like and to answer this question we need look closer at his ability. First ability is a simple elemental attack and elemental switch, second ability are elemental buffs and area of effect, third is damage platform with armor, fourth is a robo-dragon. The best way to apply combine elements synergy would be using first two abilities, which as you write should occur when you switch element during Elemental Ward. However I think that both breath and area of effect should have changed element.

[blazinvire]

I was always a fan of pulling a bit of an Equinox on Chroma, turning his first ability into an Element-switcher so Chroma can access ALL the elements during play; considering you forge him from the four elemental warframes, this much felt the bare minimum.
Not sure how you'd work that ability to make it fun and not annoying/awkward like the Quiver abilities, but I'm sure with enough creativity there could be something.

Vex Armour and Ward... it always feels bad when you have two abilities doing very similar things, when you only had 4 abilities in the first place.
I had the same problem with Titania having two very similar CC abilities, and two sources of buffs, I'm totally onboard with fusing Chroma's buffs to give him another ability slot to play with.

I feel like given Chroma's dual-nature of being both Dragon and Dragonslayer, you could build a lot of interesting interactivity and styles of play to his kit.
If his Effigy was less of an energy blackhole and more like a misbehaving Wuklone, and how you interacted with your Effigy modified your skills or playstyle.
Element-switching changing the behaviour of the Effigy, where Fire is just angry rampage, Cold stays close to you and protects, Electric it just darts about like lightning, Toxic makes it sneaky and snake-like.

Or maybe it's not a friendly playstyle, where you're constantly at odds with your Effigy, constantly 'hunting' it and everything around you just gets Collateral-damaged to death as a result of your personal battles.
Or maybe the relationship fluctuates and it could be both in one battle.

[Fenrir121]

Honestly always felt that Chroma's 4 should just have his wings come out and have him fly around, like the original concept wanted. He's supposed to be the dragon frame, not the "I have a dragon on my back that pops out and moderately annoys things" frame.

[Fenrir121]

On 2020-08-22 at 12:06 PM, Lazarow said:

Chroma is still good he is in no means bad, his role is buffing and nothing else. If all of his abilities are good then he may become too powerful

Hmm no his role isn't buffing. Many Chroma players will use a corrupt mod to up the power strength and duration for that buff. So the only buff he provides is to himself. Which is encouraged with how it works, you get the most by being selfish with the frame. So that's a problem in of itself. The argument that he has a buff therefore the rest of his abilities should be trash is a bad one. Like OP said 1 is almost pointless, 2 is so hard to work with because of the limit of its adaptability, and 4 doesn't do much more than an occasional CC.

[AkHannar]

4 hours ago, Fenrir121 said:

Honestly always felt that Chroma's 4 should just have his wings come out and have him fly around, like the original concept wanted. 

Wow... I didn't even know that his original concept involved that. Then again, have you ever typed [Chroma Prime] into the chat and opening the link? Just look below:

Seriously, what's with the teasing DE?

[Fenrir121]

1 hour ago, AkHannar said:

Then again, have you ever typed [Chroma Prime] into the chat and opening the link

Yea the Chroma Prime codex entry is a giant tease. Its exactly what I wanted from the frame and exactly what we didn't get lol. Now there are two frames that can take flight and attack from the air and neither of them are Chroma, the dragon.

[Kaiune]

To me Chroma was the most disappointing frame Mostly due to how cool he looks vs how let down his kit makes you feel. He isnt bad per se but just not enjoyable for me to dust off from time to time. I still havent decided what to replace his 1 with via helminth larva or ensnare might be good but I really dont want to farm up Khora or nidus again right now and will likely hold them till their primes. 

Your 1 redesign is neat I like that though what you have foe his electric is what his 2 does on electric. Id like to see the elements that dont get much love for his 2 be super strong with his 1 to make for some variety. 

[AkHannar]

2 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

I still havent decided what to replace his 1 with via helminth larva or ensnare might be good but I really dont want to farm up Khora or nidus again right now and will likely hold them till their primes. 

So far I put Empower on his 1, just to see how the numbers look like in combination with Vex Armor . With 260% ability strength I get max 909% armor buff and 859% damage (at least in the simulacrum). It seems a little wonky right now, because I remember testing it earlier today the same way and remember getting over 1k% armor... Though I really am waiting until I craft new Hildryn to check how Pillage works on the not-dragon boi.

2 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

Your 1 redesign is neat I like that though what you have foe his electric is what his 2 does on electric. Id like to see the elements that dont get much love for his 2 be super strong with his 1 to make for some variety. 

The Electric Elemental Ward is reactive - enemies that shot at you have a chance of getting shock procs. My suggestion for the 1 is supposed to be offensive - dealing instant electric damage to surrounding enemies, without the need for them to actually attack you first.

[Fenrir121]

On 2020-08-22 at 11:55 AM, AkHannar said:

Choma would spread those elemental wings himself

If I could have my fantasy of this, Chroma would act more like Hildryn with his 4, so you can lob a breath weapon globe at the ground from the air, come down and attack with claws add in a holographic tail extension and tail swipes, spring back up with an elemental gout from his mouth. Argh just so many possibilities it drives me crazy that all he does is shed the "pelt".

[AkHannar]

My fear is that once DE clears most of the bugs of the Helminth System, they will think that they no longer need to even consider reworks, and just expect players to fix whatever they don't like through Helminth.  That is a very bad mindset, as there are several frames that need more in-depth fixing than just replacing one ability. I saw a thread about Valkyr not too long ago, and if the points made there are true, she may need a rework more than Chroma does (I don't really know much about Valkyr). Moreover, Helminth does not allow to change passives at all, and with Elemental Ward being subsumable, it seems that the element equipping is more part of EW than part of Chroma himself (again, his 1 is worthless, 3 is not affected, and in 4 the element barely matters), making it seem like Chroma has no passive at all. On top of that, with shield gating given to all frames near the beggining of this year, Hildryn's passive is out the window, as well as a full third of the functionality of her 3. These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

[AkHannar]

Ok, so I refined the idea a little bit, and edited the original post. The old version was moved to the spoiler box in the op.

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2020-08-22 at 11:55 AM, AkHannar said:

will never succeed

I don't like this thinking. It's not magic or some uncontrollable factor that makes guns better than spectral scream. It's math. It will never succeed as long as the people in charge of balancing don't take the time to do math.

On 2020-08-22 at 11:55 AM, AkHannar said:

VA Fury bonus at around 600% should change the status chance of SS

The problem really here is if you aren't doing any damage with the ability, increasing the status chance isn't making a much of a difference. I think just increasing the area of effect as you purposed before is enough. 

I think VA would be better off causing SS to have increased range or causing it to remove enemy defenses if it must affect SS.

On 2020-08-22 at 11:55 AM, AkHannar said:

2nd Ability: Elemental Ward

Back in my original post i expressed confusion regarding the toxin variant. Now that I actually main Chroma I get where the use of it is, but I still feel like it's slightly out of place. Nevertheless, I am willing to leave it well alone, and instead suggest only one change to EW: make it recastable, with one limitation. Make it so that EW cannot be recast with the same element. Honestly the only reason I can come up with as to why EW was never allowed to be recastable is the healing you receive from the Heat variant. By making it so that players have to switch elements of the EW before being able to recast the heat variant, the energy cost will become prohibitive for spamming of EW, and thus problem solved. BONUS: accidentally activating EW with the wrong element is no longer screwing you over for however long the ability lasts in your build. You just wasted some energy instead.

Is an okay change

On 2020-08-22 at 11:55 AM, AkHannar said:

3rd Ability: Vex Armor

As I explained in my original post - I have no criticizms regarding how VA currently works. This ability is actually well balanced, giving Chroma a lot of power and tankiness, but offset by the buildup, energy cost, duration, and limited coverage. No changes needed.

And serously DE - please stop humiliating Spectral Scream and let it scale in some, ANY capacity with VA. I know it's still a bad ability in it's current state, but have mercy on the poor thing. Having only one of Chroma's natural abilities actually scale with VA feels very wrong... If it wasn't for the forums I would actually believe that this a bug that you refuse to fix...

4th Ability; Effigy

First change - merge the augment into the actual ability, and then some. On tap, Chroma deploys Effigy, and it follows Chroma around, like a bigger sentinel. On hold, Effigy is deployed and moves to the point marked by Chroma's reticle. If a moving friendly (like other players, pets, sortie defense target, rescue mission target etc.) is pointed to, Effigy follows them. All other effects of Effigy we currently have in the game remain intact.

Second change: Effigy gets deployed with the currently selected element on Chroma (considered Element 1 - this one doesn't change until Effigy is deactivated). Hitting Effigy with a Spectral Scream introduces Element 2 - this one can be changed by Chrom changing his selected element and using SS on Effigy again. If Element 2 is different than Element 1, Effigy's damage is changed to the combined element made of the two. No damage bonus or anything, just element change.

Augment change: have Effigy be replaced with a Dragon Form ability that will have Chroma sprout wings, and fly around. No archwing manuvers, just flight. Chroma constantly moves forward in this mode, in the direction pointed by the camera, slighttly altered by whether the player is holding jump or crouch to ascend/ descend, or left and right - this would make circling targets around more doable. Why circle targets? Because in this mode, Chroma can hold the fire button to spew out his elemental damage like how SS currently works (just a more convenient way to use it). Also, the reason why pressing the button is necessary is because Chroma's energy doesn't drain just from flying, but instead from the breath attack. A fun little mechanic that allows the players to learn how to best conserve energy while getting the most out of the attack. Finally - EW and VA do not get interrupted by entering this form, but they cannot be cast while in it. 

Any of you who had enough patience to read through this, let me know what you think :)

In some aggreeance with the rest of this however I don't really see the need to make the current augment part of chromas kit.

Nice rework overall. The new Augment idea really seals the deal. Just have a few nitpicks but yeah, nice job

[AkHannar]

On 2021-12-06 at 6:30 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I don't like this thinking. It's not magic or some uncontrollable factor that makes guns better than spectral scream. It's math. It will never succeed as long as the people in charge of balancing don't take the time to do math.

You are correct. It's not magic that makes guns better than SS - it's convenience + mods + the ability to quickly switch between primary and secondary (and have the two fill a different role) + the ability to switch to completely different guns between missions. Right now SS works like a very crappy Ignis, just with the ability to change elements. Unless DE changes SS into an exalted weapon, and allow us to mod it (or idk - make effigy moddable and have the mods there affect SS as well) SS has no hope of out-damaging the guns (especially with galvanized mods now being a thing). This is actuall

 

On 2021-12-06 at 6:30 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

The problem really here is if you aren't doing any damage with the ability, increasing the status chance isn't making a much of a difference. I think just increasing the area of effect as you purposed before is enough. 

I think VA would be better off causing SS to have increased range or causing it to remove enemy defenses if it must affect SS.

I actually believe that having SS focus more on status than damage is not a bad idea. All DE needs to do is allow this ability to cause a LOT of status procs quickly. So SS needs to be a quick-cast ability with good coverage. Then, we could use stuff like Condition Overload or some galvanized mods to capitalize on the status procs and turn them into damage.

On 2021-12-06 at 6:30 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

I think VA would be better off causing SS to have increased range or causing it to remove enemy defenses if it must affect SS.

Not a bad suggestion. Though anything is better than to have the two abilities completely divorced like now...

On 2021-12-06 at 6:30 PM, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim said:

In some aggreeance with the rest of this however I don't really see the need to make the current augment part of chromas kit.

This is mostly me thinking of the players who actually enjoy the current state of Effigy. A kind of "have your cake and eat it too" scenario, for profit taker Chromas etc.

[Sc1nderS]

On 2020-08-22 at 8:55 AM, AkHannar said:

Spectral Scream needs to stop trying to compete with guns.

The problem obviously is that Chroma looses his ability to use guns while this is active, so the fact is that it has to compete with guns. I think redoing it and making it an exaulted weapon is the best option. I would also increase its range from 10 to 20 meters to match it with effigy.

Also its damage is affected by vex armor. The problem is that the damage is still pitiful even when buffed. 

On 2020-08-22 at 8:55 AM, AkHannar said:

Back in my original post i expressed confusion regarding the toxin variant. Now that I actually main Chroma I get where the use of it is, but I still feel like it's slightly out of place.

I still agree with your confusion about toxin. I think they should instead replace it with basic health regen.

On 2020-08-22 at 8:55 AM, AkHannar said:

By making it so that players have to switch elements of the EW before being able to recast the heat variant, the energy cost will become prohibitive for spamming of EW, and thus problem solved.

I think it could still be abused. I would instead give the entire ability a base cooldown of 10 seconds. That way our ability to get a health boost in the heat of battle isn't hindered by duration mods.

I would also dramatically increase the range and status chance of heat and toxin damage effects. Cold and electricity are the only two that actually do anything. Electricity however could use a buff to the shields he gets when active, or be changed to basic shield regen independent of natural regen and unaffected by damage.

On 2020-08-22 at 8:55 AM, AkHannar said:

4th Ability; Effigy

First change - merge the augment into the actual ability, and then some.

I like this idea, however I think making SS an exaulted weapon which could be used by effigy would solve its uselessness. On top of this, I would remove the energy drain entirely.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I don't think the changes to Effigy solve the issues that the ability has. High energy drain and poor AI are the main two, and I'd address them this way:

• Reduce the energy drain per second.
• Allow Effigy to carry Elemental Ward and Vex Armor. Allies within 12m and 18m (scales with range) will receive the respective buff.
  • Ward element and Vex Armor value are determined by Chroma's buffs when he casts Effigy.
  • These buffs will persist on the Effigy until Effigy is deactivated, regardless of what happens to Chroma's buffs.
  • Two Elemental Wards of the same element cannot stack. 2 instances of Vex Armor cannot stack.

Allowing Effigy to be a buff station doesn't solve the issues with Effigy's poor AI, but it allows Effigy to be a good ability without being dependent on the AI doing its job. It also allows Effigy to work better in high levels where the damage it deals falls off.

[AkHannar]

2 hours ago, Sc1nderS said:

I think redoing it and making it an exaulted weapon is the best option. 

Sounds interesting. Or maybe we could have Effigy be modable, and have SS benefit from those mods.

2 hours ago, Sc1nderS said:

I would also increase its range from 10 to 20 meters to match it with effigy.

I didn't even know they have different ranges... wow...

2 hours ago, Sc1nderS said:

Also its damage is affected by vex armor. The problem is that the damage is still pitiful even when buffed. 

No it isn't. DE got rid of that. Not only did I test it myself in the simulacrum TODAY, but also allegedly they said on one of the devstreams that they were worried that SS in combination with VA would be OP...

what.

the.

hell?

Edit: The wiki actually claims that VA does buff Spectral Scream, but in my testing there is absolutely ZERO difference in damage of SS with VA off and with Fury at  976%. Either the wiki is wrong or something is working weird about it.

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

I don't think the changes to Effigy solve the issues that the ability has. High energy drain and poor AI are the main two, and I'd address them this way:

• Reduce the energy drain per second.
• Allow Effigy to carry Elemental Ward and Vex Armor. Allies within 12m and 18m (scales with range) will receive the respective buff.
  • Ward element and Vex Armor value are determined by Chroma's buffs when he casts Effigy.
  • These buffs will persist on the Effigy until Effigy is deactivated, regardless of what happens to Chroma's buffs.
  • Two Elemental Wards of the same element cannot stack. 2 instances of Vex Armor cannot stack.

Allowing Effigy to be a buff station doesn't solve the issues with Effigy's poor AI, but it allows Effigy to be a good ability without being dependent on the AI doing its job. It also allows Effigy to work better in high levels where the damage it deals falls off.

Interesting suggestion. I have only one question: would Chroma himself be able to benefit from Effigy's EW and VA bonuses, even after his timers on these run out? If so, so long as he can keep Effigy up, he would be able to maintain these buffs for no additional energy cost - that may just be a little too close to what DE would consider nerf material.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

1 minute ago, AkHannar said:

would Chroma himself be able to benefit from Effigy's EW and VA bonuses, even after his timers on these run out? If so, so long as he can keep Effigy up, he would be able to maintain these buffs for no additional energy cost - that may just be a litle too close to what DE would consider nerf material.

Chroma would be able to benefit from Vex Armor and E. Ward, but he still has to deal with the energy drain of Effigy (which would still exist, but in a slightly easier to maintain form), while also needing to stay near Effigy to benefit (interesting incentive to build range or use Guided Effigy). I think this is powerful, but I do not consider this to be overpowered because of the aforementioned limitations. However, if you don't agree, I'd be perfectly fine with Effigy giving the buffs to allies within 6 and 9m instead, so you have to limit your movement even more.

Just as a side note, Everlasting Ward would probably be fine to work with this, but obviously it would need to be a % of Chroma's duration, rather than the Effigy's variable duration.

I'm also debating whether or not Vex Armor should scale up to whoever has higher values. For example, if Chroma's Vex Armor is maxed, but Effigy's is only at 50%, Chroma walking near Effigy would cause both Vex Armors to be the highest value. It's not necessary, but I think it would be nice to let Chroma cast his Vex Armor near his charged up Effigy to avoid the charging process, or letting Chroma go and charge Vex Armor away from the Effigy to bring the buff home. 

There's also the idea of Effigy being able to take damage to charge Vex, but as far as I know the Effigy doesn't have shields. I think there's a lot you could do with this idea, but I'm perfectly fine with my original suggestion.