Being Overpowered is Good and Nerfs are Bad.

[ReaverKane]

2 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Yes. Have you? Because I get the impression that you only ever worked in Warframe.

Well, i have thousands of hours in warframe, of those, probably half, to two thirds of that time were played while watching a series on tv, or doing something similar, because to get a decent build with a couple forma on a warframe, you have to grind affinity, and those are not fun processes. To get condition overload, which is a almost mandatory mod for status weapons, you need to farm Ophelia and other stuff for hours. Something that you do while doing other stuff, can't be called fun.
If you have fun doing that repetitive stuff, hey congrats, there's nothing wrong with that. Me, i need more involved stuff to have fun. And for me that's the end-result of having that cool build i enjoy playing, or doing ridiculous builds to exploit a gimmick on a boss or something like that. Farming hours on end to get to those builds, not that fun.
For me, its fun to finish the Hunt for the Wolf events in less than 1 minute. Doing that 200 times for the damn S#&$ty mask to drop, because i have this completionist streak to me? That was a little less fun.

[Aldain]

By that logic a /killall function would be the best thing to implement in the game.

Because there is nothing more overpowered than that which means that nothing is better than that.

Except you know...the game then WOULD HAVE NO GAMEPLAY.

[bibmobello]

6 minutes ago, Aldain said:

By that logic a /killall function would be the best thing to implement in the game.

Because there is nothing more overpowered than that which means that nothing is better than that.

Except you know...the game then WOULD HAVE NO GAMEPLAY.

You already have  that in normal missions, the classical, saryn, equinox, volt, banshee on hydron is an obvious example. At this point they can just add the same function in every mission so we can save a lot of time collecting usless stuff.

[(XBOX)CoffeeRBunny]

Their is a clear line between powerful and then op like the bramma, this bow literally overshadowed every weapon(unless you hated staggers to death) so it was a nerf that made sense.

The bramma nerf killed its ammo storage and ammo pickup which can be fixed with either pads or using the exilus slot.

The catchmoon nerf killed its range and is helped with lethal momentum not perfectly but still very good.

While not every nerf is handled right (xoris combo) alot of the weapon nerfs I have seen everyone complain about I don't see any problem with since these weapons that are nerfed are still stronger than most weapons in the game but no longer the if your not using [weapon] your doing it wrong.

I understand investing in a weapon for it only to be nerfed like old simulor mirage but these nerfs are justified since almost every weapon even after nerfs can clear all normal content you will play like the bramma it still outdamages other explosive weapons and still has higher aoe than most and was nerfed so why not.

I would start to be worried if nerfs are constant but so far we have had many more buffs than nerfs to weapons.

[infested system nerfs also suck but at least they were quick and we haven't seen the numbers yet so im holding my breath until we get numbers.]

(Challenge is subjective so im basing this on the star chart content)

(rivens are literally a always buffing and nerfing system so i really don't see why people complain in using a system that is always a risk of nerfs and buffs. I think the system could be better but everything in life could be better)

tldr: Nerfs are needed just not overkill nerfs.

[Miser_able]

Being overpowered is great and all, until you end up with a teammate who oneshots all the enemies before you even get a chance to see them. Are you really having fun then, just standing around? 

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, ReaverKane said:

And a lot of the times, especially in video games, is less about the journey, and more about the destination.

What an absurd statement. 

If this were true, the best games would be the ones that last less than a minute from start to completion.

The journey is the most important part of the game, because that's the part that you, y'know, are actually playing. Having a goal to strive for is one thing, but saying that the most important part of the experience is when it's over is ridiculous.

[bibmobello]

9 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

Being overpowered is great and all, until you end up with a teammate who oneshots all the enemies before you even get a chance to see them. Are you really having fun then, just standing around? 

Apparently this is the only reason DE continues developing this game, it's not a PvP, it's not a PvE, it's not a coop game, it's just  a "i can kill more enemies and i deal more damage than you " game. This is why you have rivens,  you have +300% on arb and so on...

[Demqnboii]

11 hours ago, Alkarnus said:

I think this is where most people who bothered arguing would argue. Modding your gear right through investing forma and time is simply grinding at an exp farm node of your choice. There is no "challenge". However, I do enjoy being powerful and if I want some so-called challenge, I simply go play other games. Here's the kicker: a "challenge" has different meanings for different people.

Yeah but DE will never understand that challange doesn't mean bullet sponges but enemies with delegraphed attacks that you have to dodge in time or you'll be punished. AI in warframe is dumb as a headless cockroach, it waddles around bumping into whatever it still feels. I feel like the game would be 80%+ fun and engaging if every enemy had something special about them that is dangerous, and im not talking about erasing the undestructible space ninja vibes but atleast make me feel like i need to focus and not just spam the mouse click or E button. We need more stuff like the noxes, atleast they run at you, or something like the leaping thrasher that does have some telegraphed attacks you can dodge. Bossfights like the Ropalolyst or reworked Jackal had used the telegraphed attacks department pretty well. I mean sure, challange can be different for people but wouldn't you enjoy dodging an attack and you could do somekind of epic parazon move to turn the tables around? I swear to god i think i played way too much Metal Gear Rising Revengeance xD, but i mean that game implemented telegraphed attacks that could harm you if you don't dodge/block them pretty well ó.ó

[ReaverKane]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

What an absurd statement. 

If this were true, the best games would be the ones that last less than a minute from start to completion.

The journey is the most important part of the game, because that's the part that you, y'know, are actually playing. Having a goal to strive for is one thing, but saying that the most important part of the experience is when it's over is ridiculous.

LOL

You know what's absurd? Its the fact that giving us ways to skip the journey is EXACTLY HOW DE MAKES MONEY! They sell us affinity boosters, drop chance and resource ammount boosters, credit boosters, they sell you the built warframe, the primes, all this, because they know that the fun is HAVING the warframes and PLAYING  with them, not farming them and grinding for their exp.
This fact that seems absurd to you is built into the game as part of its monetization, and yet, apparently it baffles you?
I am in some higher plain of enlightenment, or are you guys that blind to what's obvious?

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

I am in some higher plain of enlightenment, or are you guys that blind to what's obvious?

There is a third option ofc.

Frankly you're just being disingenuous. What you initially said had nothing to do with boosters or plat rushing, verbatem you said "And a lot of the times, especially in video games, is less about the journey, and more about the destination." Forget Warframe, you're extrapolating that to apply to most video games.

This is, as stated, an absurd mentality to approach video games with. 

[ReaverKane]

27 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

There is a third option ofc.

Frankly you're just being disingenuous. What you initially said had nothing to do with boosters or plat rushing, verbatem you said "And a lot of the times, especially in video games, is less about the journey, and more about the destination." Forget Warframe, you're extrapolating that to apply to most video games.

This is, as stated, an absurd mentality to approach video games with. 

I'm extrapolating because it can be extrapolated. Most games, especially mmorpgs have the same mechanics. Most games will ask you to perform repetitive tasks to achieve some objective (better items, higher levels, new content, whatever), it's pretty much an ubiquitous thing.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

I'm extrapolating because it can be extrapolated. Most games, especially mmorpgs have the same mechanics. Most games will ask you to perform repetitive tasks to achieve some objective (better items, higher levels, new content, whatever), it's pretty much an ubiquitous thing.

I'm mildly concerned as to how many actual video games you've played in your life.

No, destination > journey cannot be extrapolated across gaming as a whole, otherwise the game literally entitled "Journey" would be considered grade A garbage. The journey in a game makes up everything from gameplay to story. If you live in a world where you genuinely consider gameplay and story to take second place to "bigger numbers" then I have genuine concerns, and I would wholly argue that your opinion is admissible on the grounds of being utterly absurd.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm mildly concerned as to how many actual video games you've played in your life.

I've played an altogether unhealthy amount of them in my lifespan so far and can confirm that the amount of times destination > journey is a point of a game is INSANELY low.

The only one that might come to mind are Diablo-clones, but I've never played a Diablo-like game for more than an hour so I'm no authority on the subject.

Most other games are all about this healthy mix of journeys and destinations culminating in a grand finale where it all gets put together. Legend of Zelda games being one of my favorite in that regard.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

5 hours ago, Highresist said:

DE have no clue how to balance difficulty and player power. It's been 7 years, you would think one of the devs would have realized what they are doing wrong, that Grinding gears are doing right, but nope... DE are balancing the game around popularity rather than power, meaning they have no idea why certain setups are being used. I'm willing to bet that they don't know about the Eidolon meta, because the warframes used there are not popular in general gameplay, so they have no clue 90% of the setups are useless for that content.

Maybe they do that because it brings in the most money? Maybe they are keenly aware what they should do but since that might be bad for their gains, they won't do it.

[killerJoke66]

3 hours ago, Miser_able said:

Being overpowered is great and all, until you end up with a teammate who oneshots all the enemies before you even get a chance to see them. Are you really having fun then, just standing around? 

does it really matter , because you would be either in pubs or with friends or in a recruit group , assuming its pubs people race for efficency there , even if we had no aoe weapons people would still go far as racing at steal-killing from each other with rifle primaries and such just because they can(sad i know but they exist even in wf) and its called online gaming , nothing can be done to 'nerf' that , it will always exist in pubs in one way or the other. 

[killerJoke66]

Also theres the 'fun' killing argument which is not objectical. For someone else killing fast and large amount of enemies can be fun but for you it may be shooting mobs 1 by 1 and thats okay .
The tricky part comes when 4 random people join for a mission with no pre-game lobby(not that it would prevent anything but lets just continue) , you say if one way of doing things gets in the way of the way you do your fun thing , same thing can be said when an efficent way of doing a certain thing would get a nerf because of complaints from the opposite statementasking for DE to nerf it.Now you got in the way of those players' fun. So who is DE gonna listen to , who is ' right ' ? 

To me thats a text book philosophical issue more than an actual game balance issue , because either parties lose something of their subjective 'fun' when the other gets to do their own thing confortably . 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

14 hours ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

Yes! The grineer are the cockroaches and my Arsenal is the large can of bug spray. 😂

Well.. Vay Hek begs to differ.

Except if we're talking about ghouls. Then we'd be on the same page about who is a nasty bug.

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, Demqnboii said:

enemies with delegraphed attacks that you have to dodge in time or you'll be punished.

If you're referring to Dark Souls enemies, they don't have smart AI either. For the majority of bosses it's mad easy to just hide behind their butts, hit their ankles and roll for the I-frames when they swing their arms. Dark Souls enemies feel more challenging not because they have great AI, but because the player character is relatively weak and vulnerable.

3 hours ago, Demqnboii said:

AI in warframe is dumb as a headless cockroach, it waddles around bumping into whatever it still feels. I feel like the game would be 80%+ fun and engaging if every enemy had something special about them that is dangerous, and im not talking about erasing the undestructible space ninja vibes but atleast make me feel like i need to focus and not just spam the mouse click or E button. We need more stuff like the noxes, atleast they run at you

I think the enemies are smarter than they're often given credit for. We just rarely get to see it because they all get CCed, stunlocked or instakilled before they ever get close enough, often before even being seen. Or if they get to pull stuff off (like Basolk Butcher rift-striking onto you) it doesn't matter because you've got a 90% DR and a greatsword that one-shots everything within 4 meters of you, or they've just been caught in the same nuke as the rest of the room.  This is why the Nox is good, because it kinda demands specific action from the player, breaking up the spam, and it usually lasts long enough against said spam.to demand the mix-up.

While there are certainly some areas where enemies need better reaction (ie if they see a Strangledome drag in their allies, maybe they should know not to walk right into it?), we would have to concede that drop in player power, even if a lot players might think that'd be cheap "because my ability is just supposed to CC everything". Smarter, engaging enemies would necessitate at least a bit of a drop from our current status of "virtually immortal death gods". Because if the enemies' actions are inconsequential to us no matter what, why use anything but the lowest-effort methods we have?

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

8 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I may never be completionist enough to get to MR30, but I've always thought the perfect reward to not be gamebreaking but reward the time and effort of people who spent all that time to get to MR30, would be to make it so when you forma something, it starts at R30. You still have to rank it up once though to get that mastery in the beginning, and MR 31, 32+ etc players. could start future lich weapons (obvious MR30'+s would have mastered all the grineer ones already), that have already been ranked up once, at 31, 32 or whatever MR you are after you use a forma. 

 

I kind of wonder though what the title of rank you’d be called though when you go above mr30 since you are already a true master at mr30  just can’t imagine a title that could surpass something like True master. Though maybe you would still be a true master when you get pass mr30 but when you forma your account your MR prestige ranks and you get another cool looking symbol by your name. Personally I think it would be cool is if DE made one weapon mr30 locked as reward to those players that become true masters. Definitely some interesting theories none the less.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

3 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

LOL

You know what's absurd? Its the fact that giving us ways to skip the journey is EXACTLY HOW DE MAKES MONEY! They sell us affinity boosters, drop chance and resource ammount boosters, credit boosters, they sell you the built warframe, the primes, all this, because they know that the fun is HAVING the warframes and PLAYING  with them, not farming them and grinding for their exp.
This fact that seems absurd to you is built into the game as part of its monetization, and yet, apparently it baffles you?
I am in some higher plain of enlightenment, or are you guys that blind to what's obvious?

I think there’s a pretty large disconnect between what you two are saying. You can’t put Warframe in the same category as something like the Witcher 3. Most games are about the journey, as others in the thread have pointed out, but in a free to play game built around grinding like Warframe is, the same cannot always be said.

Now, I would also argue that if you don’t enjoy the grind then WF is probably not the game for you. Personally, I love the grind and the sweet satisfaction I get when it’s finished. That’s part of the WF journey for me, but I can understand where you’re coming from when talking specifically about Warframe or grindy games in general.

[Kaotyke]

7 hours ago, bibmobello said:

Actually it's blast damage at least impact have a bonus on shields.

BTW they can continue to increase their payerbase with 12 old boys complaining about "nerfs" here, there is something called dignity, even when you speak about video games.

I know the cockroach explodes when I step on them. But I'm sure my feet doesnt explode for it to be blast...

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

6 hours ago, ebrl said:

Don't ever pursue a career in game design.

No worries I won’t. I already have a job and work for a living.

[ReaverKane]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I think there’s a pretty large disconnect between what you two are saying. You can’t put Warframe in the same category as something like the Witcher 3. Most games are about the journey, as others in the thread have pointed out, but in a free to play game built around grinding like Warframe is, the same cannot always be said.

Now, I would also argue that if you don’t enjoy the grind then WF is probably not the game for you. Personally, I love the grind and the sweet satisfaction I get when it’s finished. That’s part of the WF journey for me, but I can understand where you’re coming from when talking specifically about Warframe or grindy games in general.

I haven't played Witcher 3, yet... So i won't talk to that one...
But another game which has a big "Journey" to it... Skyrim.
How many Daggers did you craft to level up Smithing? How many hours has everyone spent grinding whatever perk tree you wanted to max out? Was that journey? No it was destination.

Seriously, grinding and farming is ingrained in games, i'm not saying its negative... And most of the times you don't really notice it, but its there, its part of how games are built, because, yeah, they don't want you to finish the game in the time it takes you to run through the story, so you have a few side-activities. Some are journeys, like the good kind of side-quest, others are work, like most fetch quests.

The fact that you didn't assimilate the fact that you were just doing these chores in other games, just because, doesn't mean that you didn't. And doesn't change the fact that you suffer through them for the goal, be it exp, a cool item, or just to tick that one off the list, not really because its fun to run around from NPC to NPC to deliver items for them. Or you're into that kind of thing... I don't judge. The fact remains for most people they're stuff they do for the goal, because they will enhance the actual journey, but not because that particular journey is fun.

And finally, this is a discussion on Warframe, not the Witcher, and again i could write a whole dissertation on how this particular exploit on the reward system of the human brain is used on games throughout the spectrum, its not the point i was making, the point i'm making is that, in games, and most importantly, and to the point, on Warframe this is a common thing, and a bunch of the monetization is built around giving you chores to do, so that you'll spend some money avoiding them.


 

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Well.. Vay Hek begs to differ.

Except if we're talking about ghouls. Then we'd be on the same page about who is a nasty bug.

I think Van Hek or Van Kek suffers from a thing called, the pot calling the kettle black.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 minute ago, (NSW)JJA209 said:

I think Van Hek or Van Kek suffers from a thing called pot calling the kettle black.

That's very true, tbh. Gave me a chuckle.