I just realized how pointless nerfing the best subsume abilites is.

[QuinnCarter]

It doesn't matter if Roar, Warcry, what have you is nerfed by 75% or whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that even nerfed, those abilities are still more useful than some of the garbage abilities other frames have. Decoy, Mind Control, Ballistic Battery, all these abilities never get used anyway so why bother keep them if we can get an ability that boosts all damage even by 5%?

The main problem with the abilities getting nerfed is that it doesn't change the fact that everything else is still worse in comparison.

[DrivaMain]

I disagree on Mind Control being completely useless. If you controlled a hard hitting enemy like Corpus Tech, Conculyst, Grineer Napalm, Grineer Bombard, Mutalist Osprey they can deal reasonable damage. They are also have a high threat level so you can draw enemy aggro away from you.
 

Decoy and Ballistic Battery do need buffs tho.

[QuinnCarter]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I disagree on Mind Control being completely useless. If you controlled a hard hitting enemy like Corpus Tech, Conculyst, Grineer Napalm, Grineer Bombard, Mutalist Osprey they can deal reasonable damage. They are also have a high threat level so you can draw enemy aggro away from you.
 

Decoy and Ballistic Battery do need buffs tho.

On Steel Path, a Mind Controlled enemy with the augment at 10000% still does no damage to anything that isn't infested.

[DrivaMain]

Just now, QuinnCarter said:

On Steel Path.

Steel Path 

Didn’t DE said Steel Path is not used as a balance measure?

[JackHargreav]

Well I never heared this before.

Never. Absolutely. Ever.

Seriously tho, this is what everyone has been saying for quite some time. This isn't any new realization.

How DE should fix this has also been discussed but let's face it. With just a few days before the update they will stick to the nerf solution and leave it that way.

Which is fine because we need more than just cc and support abilities. 

[Faras]

I don't think you get the point of nerf, they're trying to make the game as un-enjoyable as possible.

[QuinnCarter]

4 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Well I never heared this before.

Never. Absolutely. Ever.

Seriously tho, this is what everyone has been saying for quite some time. This isn't any new realization.

How DE should fix this has also been discussed but let's face it. With just a few days before the update they will stick to the nerf solution and leave it that way.

Which is fine because we need more than just cc and support abilities. 

In my defence, I try to stay away from general discussions as much as possible for my own sanity.

[JackHargreav]

1 minute ago, QuinnCarter said:

In my defence, I try to stay away from general discussions as much as possible for my own sanity.

Understandable.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

29 minutes ago, QuinnCarter said:

 

It doesn't matter if Roar, Warcry... nerfed

 

You absolutely correct. DE nerfing both will have no effect, it won’t make other terrible abilities suddenly better. 

[Zzz-Somnus-zzZ]

Some abilities are used for utility for niche builds: decoy used with teleport for Ash in spying missions.

Am unsure if blood altar with mind control is doable. 

 

Overall, nerfing just seems dumb atm. Should have changed to 'charge' from Rhino (perhaps having his slam aoe on hitting a wall), 'sleight of hand' from Mirage and 'Paralysis' from Valkitty. 

[Wyrmius_Prime]

39 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Steel Path 

Didn’t DE said Steel Path is not used as a balance measure?

Mind Control doesn't scale past level 5.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

Mind Control doesn't scale past level 5.

It actually does (or it rather gets scaled) but people can't put an Intensify on Nyx and cast her 2 every once in a while for some reason.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a good ability but the scaling (on Nyx) isn't the big issue. It's more so the lack of non-enemy-based utility (like a taunt and/or maybe a mallet effect or a DR link, just something that makes you want to cast it), dumb passive AI (Enemy AI instead of Wuclone AI), that you have your 3 (since the other desirable things are missing her 3 is a better 1 most of the time) and that it's duration based (should be permanent, canceled manually or by death of the controlled enemy). Something like that. In my opinion anyways.

[0_The_F00l]

Wow I totally missed this in the dozen other discussions happening on the topic.

Honestly the Nerf doesn't really bother me, but the fact that they didn't see it as an obvious requirement before the dev workshop was started does. 

Really, what were they expecting when you let players choose between some of the most convenient against some of the least useful abilities in the game?

A game that has steadily gotten so grindy that players stopped playing the game allowing afk techniques to be preferred over interesting ones to get shot done in the shortest amount of time. 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, QuinnCarter said:

It doesn't matter if Roar, Warcry, what have you is nerfed by 75% or whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that even nerfed, those abilities are still more useful than some of the garbage abilities other frames have.

I will try to highlight fallacy in this argument as simply as I can:

"You are thrown into a medieval battle simualtion and you can pick your weapon. You can choose between a longsword, a katana, a pair of daggers, a pencil, a spear, a lasor pistol or a longbow. Which weapon would lead to best results?"
The obvious choice for OP results would be the laser pistol. And by removing it fromt the pool a pencil wouldn't become any more usefull. However, absence of said laser pistol would instantly make the middle ground options, like longsword or longbow seem more reasonable.

Nerfs to Roar cannot make Decoy stand out more, becasue Decoy itself is an outlier, just on the other end of the spectrum. However, it would make your choice not as obvious or convenoient compared to a much bigger pool of abilities inbetween those extremes.

[Lost_Cartographer]

40 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I will try to highlight fallacy in this argument as simply as I can:

"You are thrown into a medieval battle simualtion and you can pick your weapon. You can choose between a longsword, a katana, a pair of daggers, a pencil, a spear, a lasor pistol or a longbow. Which weapon would lead to best results?"
The obvious choice for OP results would be the laser pistol. And by removing it fromt the pool a pencil wouldn't become any more usefull. However, absence of said laser pistol would instantly make the middle ground options, like longsword or longbow seem more reasonable.

Nerfs to Roar cannot make Decoy stand out more, becasue Decoy itself is an outlier, just on the other end of the spectrum. However, it would make your choice not as obvious or convenoient compared to a much bigger pool of abilities inbetween those extremes.

This really depends.  The truth is from the selection of a longsword, a katana, a pair of daggers, a pencil, a spear, a lasor pistol, a longbow, (and) a shield, a warhorn a hookline or a net, many warframes already have these items, they're now picking their own fourth tool.  A warframe with a longsword, a shield, a warhorn, and a net might swap one out for a longbow or a laser pistol.  Meanwhile, some warframes have three pencils and one thing actually worth having.  People's excuse for roar was that Rhino had 2 pencils, a shield, and a warhorn.  And they're even going so far as to think the only things he should subsume with the helminth are his pencil (charge.)  They don't seem to recognize that nerfing his warhorn when used on other frames doesn't necessarily improve him or make him more valuable, and seem to refuse to acknowledge that if he drops in value when one of his abilities is available to all warframes, that HE is the problem, not his ability.

But what it all really boils down is people railing hard against anything that might make the META even stronger, which just shows they don't know WTF they're talking about - Anyone already abusing the META has flown through steel path.  They never needed roar.  They're already doing a few hours in an endless without it.  What's the difference with it?  Another hour?  In the grand scheme of things, is another 3 ABC rotations really breaking the game?  Last I checked 2000 credits is still in the reward pool in the 100th ABC rotation, these people are saving themselves a couple loading screens.

Roar is for the soloist and those that don't want to use META builds because they find them uninteresting.  It's so doofuses like me can get a a bit more out of our Kuva Quartakk and Atlas Prime before enemy scaling throws our TTK shrieking down a cliff side.  For the love of the Void, DE, please stop giving in to the panic stricken players that cling to "balance" without understanding why or how those going to the extra distance can do so.  Because it ain't roar, or warcry.  They've long since learned how to get by without it.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

It actually does (or it rather gets scaled) but people can't put an Intensify on Nyx and cast her 2 every once in a while for some reason.

I mean that kinda assumes that nobody else in your squad is casting absolutely nothing else for the Mind controlled enemy to have enough time to do anything regardless of 100% armor stripping.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

I mean that kinda assumes that nobody else in your squad is casting absolutely nothing else for the Mind controlled enemy to have enough time to do anything regardless of 100% armor stripping.

I assume nothing with that statement. I responded to the claim it wouldn't scale past enemy level 5. Not the claim that it's bad (which I still said it is). Not sure what the ability to scale its damage has directly to do with how well or badly that still scaling damage is apllied in the context of simply refuting the claim it wouldn't scale past level 5. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say to be frank.

Not really relevant, I guess, but considering I played Steel Path solo with Nyx (I'm not using SP as balance argument here or whatever, that's just where I played her a lot solo recently) I suppose a squad casting nothing is actually a possibility that can happen when playing her. I still barely used Mind Control though. Again, I never said it's good. I said as Nyx you can make the damage scale past level 5.

[Syln]

Il y a 2 heures, DrivaMain a dit :

Steel Path 

Didn’t DE said Steel Path is not used as a balance measure?

Of course not but still it highlight the fact that it's no match compared to a damage boost ability

[KrazyKavatLady]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

I disagree on Mind Control being completely useless. If you controlled a hard hitting enemy like Corpus Tech, Conculyst, Grineer Napalm, Grineer Bombard, Mutalist Osprey they can deal reasonable damage.

Brozime showed, in one of his streams, how utterly useless Mind Control is, even when buffed by a squad mate. It is not "reasonable" damage, especially as you scale higher. 

[Serafim_94]

"Just because some abilities are useless let's make sure ALL abilities are useless compared to Roar".

S. Logic.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

2 hours ago, --RV--Faras said:

I don't think you get the point of nerf, they're trying to make the game as un-enjoyable as possible.

It's their way of saying " hey Tencent don't buys us, see how players keep leaving the game,  profits down 12%  last year ,  20%  this year , then gaming revenue is up 30%.    I see what DE is doing. .. keep killing the hype while the bosses aren't looking. ....

[DrivaMain]

34 minutes ago, KrazyKavatLady said:

Brozime showed, in one of his streams, how utterly useless Mind Control is, even when buffed by a squad mate. It is not "reasonable" damage, especially as you scale higher. 

Which enemy he controlled? Don’t tell me he uses a generic lancer as a test dummy.

[Rantear]

1 час назад, ShortCat сказал:

I will try to highlight fallacy in this argument as simply as I can:

"You are thrown into a medieval battle simualtion and you can pick your weapon. You can choose between a longsword, a katana, a pair of daggers, a pencil, a spear, a lasor pistol or a longbow. Which weapon would lead to best results?"
The obvious choice for OP results would be the laser pistol. And by removing it fromt the pool a pencil wouldn't become any more usefull. However, absence of said laser pistol would instantly make the middle ground options, like longsword or longbow seem more reasonable.

Nerfs to Roar cannot make Decoy stand out more, becasue Decoy itself is an outlier, just on the other end of the spectrum. However, it would make your choice not as obvious or convenoient compared to a much bigger pool of abilities inbetween those extremes.

The thing is, they didn't remove the laser pistol, they've just replaced it's batteries with weaker ones. 


Real problem is, those nerfs most likely are not going to be shown anywhere in the game, you will find out that they're nerfed only after you've put them on another frame, and mind you, doing this wastes resources, as was shown on the devstream.

Why do i assume such a thing?
1. DE isn't exactly known for explaining S#&$ to the players.
2. They've already buffed some of the existing abilites, and there is no information about that in-game.

[ranks21]

Brozime is only good for showing stats on spreadsheets on his vids, LOR is a true warframe player that is better at showing what a frame ability can and cant do with the hrs per session to back it up, Brozime is a joke.

[Graavarg]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Nerfs to Roar cannot make Decoy stand out more, becasue Decoy itself is an outlier, just on the other end of the spectrum. However, it would make your choice not as obvious or convenoient compared to a much bigger pool of abilities inbetween those extremes.

If you include abiltities, mods, rivens, arcanes and weapons there are literally hundreds of builds and combos that are strong enough to handle anything in the game, even on the Steel Path. So adding even more op stuff simply makes only a little sense. It might be something new, but that's it. The real strength of Warframe lies in it's enormous diversity, not in even more power. So adding to the diversity and multiplying the amount of combinations is the thing (from a DE perspective), as is using that diversity for your enjoyment (from the players perspective). And the two main paths of that enjoyment is utilizing that diversity to "maximize the meta" and "exploring the diversity" for more fun things that work (in mysterious ways, occasionally).

Misguidedly playing Warframe only to "win or beat the game" makes the meta path partly meaningful but makes all the diversity and it's innumerable possibilities meaningless, even irritating. And also creates a trap of the player's own making, if the goal is "to win" (by reaching some "op godly"-hood) that trap snaps shut when you reach the plateau of "nothing left to beat", which leaves you with nothing meaningful to do except crying on the forum about "no end game content" (and the meaningfulness of that could be debated...).

So the point with most of  "nerfing" is not really the actual "nerfing" of the ability, weapon etc. in itself (as in not allowing "too op" stuff), the point is to buff the diversity in the game by keeping as much of it as relevant as possible. Because aside from the pretty short-lived "Warframe power trip", the diversity is where Warframe shines and where much (even most) of the fun is to be had, and that also means it is win-win territory for both DE and the playerbase. For those players that ONLY want to reach a "godly op"-state and for whom all the diversity mostly is an irritating hindrance there is nothing to be done, but at least DE can help them reach that goal a bit slower by not introducing overly quick pathways to op-ness.

To sum it up, nerfing stuff is quite meaningful, even if power- and "op"-focused players just can't see it (or get it).