The Helminth System will start at MR8 but what if..

[RussXD]

What if at each MR you can only Subsumed 1 or 2 waframes per MR until 15 then the syndicate ranking for the system takes over to be able to unlock the rest? I feel like this way it kind of fits the best of both worlds where it encourages MR progression  aswell not overwhelmed new players as it stops them shoving everything in to one system and encourages variety of play to progress? 

I was going to add this to the main thread, but i wanted to ask, is there a big negative to this? Please keep this post about this feedback and if it could potential work? 

[KIREEK]

How about, using any other system instead of MR? Like a quest completion.

[Cerikus]

2 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

How about, using any other system instead of MR? Like a quest completion.

Well you will have to complete the quest that comes with Deimos and you have to reach Rank 3 at Entrati just to turn Helminth on, so ..

[Gabbynaru]

12 minutes ago, RussXD said:

What if at each MR you can only Subsumed 1 or 2 waframes per MR until 15 then the syndicate ranking for the system takes over to be able to unlock the rest?

That's handled by the level of the Helminth. Before you reach max Helminth level, you will have a limited number of slots for subsumed abilities that increase after leveling up the Helminth and only at max level will the infinite slots unlock.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

How about, using any other system instead of MR? Like a quest completion.

Disagree here simple due to how subsuming abilities affects your player for the rest of the game. Unlocking the Operator is one thing, but unlocking the ability to swap abilities is another animal.

If DE are to make it Mastery Rank 8 accessible, then it would be neat if the subsuming process had limited slots until Mastery Rank 28 or something. This way, you can still learn and try the system, but completion/collection involves you progressing the main xp system. I don't see a problem with using Mastery Rank as Mastery Rank is the equivalent to all other account level systems on many other games. It shouldn't be optional to progress Mastery when designing progression in Warframe.

Mastery Rank 8 is just way too low, and even 15 can be arguably too low for the power it brings. If Riven Mods are 8 to 16, subsuming abilities should definitely be 20+.

[KIREEK]

29 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Disagree here simple due to how subsuming abilities affects your player for the rest of the game. Unlocking the Operator is one thing, but unlocking the ability to swap abilities is another animal.

If DE are to make it Mastery Rank 8 accessible, then it would be neat if the subsuming process had limited slots until Mastery Rank 28 or something. This way, you can still learn and try the system, but completion/collection involves you progressing the main xp system. I don't see a problem with using Mastery Rank as Mastery Rank is the equivalent to all other account level systems on many other games. It shouldn't be optional to progress Mastery when designing progression in Warframe.

Mastery Rank 8 is just way too low, and even 15 can be arguably too low for the power it brings. If Riven Mods are 8 to 16, subsuming abilities should definitely be 20+.

But, that already exists in a certain way.

While players will be able to use certain abilities, the helmith is behind a grind (faction rank, new open world), requires resources (which players may not have and may be detrimental if used on this system), and a couple more things, namely:

 - the mods, the abilities will only get as strong as the player wishes, if the player doesn't seek out the mods, the abilities will never have their potential unlocked, this includes the endo necessary, so early on even if roar is applied, it will never be the roar some of us can use.

 - the ability itself requires the warframe to begin with, so while they will be introduced to the system, it's unlikely they will have warframes such as hildryn or protea, so newer players will likley be more limited in choice.

The idea is to introduce the system and then improve over time with better mods, other abilities and making sure the player has enough resources to achieve the maximum potential.

You don't need to worry, players are capable of deciding on what to do and yes, they will be limited by the current gameplay. They won't be able to extract the same stuff as me and you, far from it, but they get a glimpse of it.

[---Swaggi---]

42 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

The idea is to introduce the system and then improve over time with better mods, other abilities and making sure the player has enough resources to achieve the maximum potential.

You don't need to worry, players are capable of deciding on what to do and yes, they will be limited by the current gameplay. They won't be able to extract the same stuff as me and you, far from it, but they get a glimpse of it.

And thats the point. They are wasting resources on a system that doesnt help them in the main core game. Like Fortuna and Cetus, Deimos wil be quite isolated from the core gameplay. Quest progression and collecting mods are way more important than subsuming warframe abilities and transfer them to others... If he doesnt have the proper mods this system wont help him getting better at all imo

[KIREEK]

35 minutes ago, ---Swaggi--- said:

And thats the point. They are wasting resources on a system that doesnt help them in the main core game. Like Fortuna and Cetus, Deimos wil be quite isolated from the core gameplay. Quest progression and collecting mods are way more important than subsuming warframe abilities and transfer them to others... If he doesnt have the proper mods this system wont help him getting better at all imo

But that's something players will have to think on their own

Players rush missions all the time, but that leads to having to implement broken mods because some players can't find basic stuff, you see players sometimes requesting polymer bundle farms, all of these are consequences of the gameplay being done.

As much as we want to babysit players, they need to think where the resources and time will go and face the consequences/rewards of said choices, if they deplete all of their resources to extract rhino roar, then so be it, it's their game, we can't dictate how they should play, it's not our responsibility.

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, KIREEK said:

But that's something players will have to think on their own

Players rush missions all the time, but that leads to having to implement broken mods because some players can't find basic stuff, you see players something requesting polymer bundle farms, all of these are consequences of the gameplay being done.

As much as we want to babysit players, they need to think where the resources and time will go and face the consequences/rewards of said choices, if they deplete all of their resources to extract rhino roar, then so be it, it's their game, we can't dictate how they should play, it's not our responsibility.

Having a low Mastery bar creates more unnecessary issues with players investing in systems they really shouldn't be on the progression curve. It's a solid assumption that MR 20+ players have more resources to spend on the Helminth system then MR 10. Almost nobody is purposefully low MR and not progressing the game.

[Faras]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Almost nobody is purposefully low MR and not progressing the game.

 

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

until Mastery Rank 28 or something.

Nobody cares about mastery rank, locking things behind obscene ranks like that will appeal to less than 1% of the playerbase and is asinine.

Stop trying to make a measure of how much useless junk people have leveled up a metric of any kind of competence, it is not and will not ever reflect anything meaningful in Warframe.

[---Swaggi---]

45 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Nobody cares about mastery rank, locking things behind obscene ranks like that will appeal to less than 1% of the playerbase and is asinine.

Stop trying to make a measure of how much useless junk people have leveled up a metric of any kind of competence, it is not and will not ever reflect anything meaningful in Warframe.

But it will show one thing: How much stuff this player has tested out 😛 Bc every gear, doesnt matter of how much of a crap it is like the stug, the player has used it at least once and know if it's good or shi* in his opinion 🙂 
Same goes for the warframe abilties

[Aldain]

53 minutes ago, ---Swaggi--- said:

But it will show one thing: How much stuff this player has tested out

Does it?

I could go level up a Hind without ever firing it by using a Melee weapon instead.

Same with a Pangolin Sword while using a Bramma.

Leveling something up doesn't imply actually using it whatsoever.

[RussXD]

Please keep this thread about the original post i made on whether having a MR cap on how many warframes you can subsumed between MR 8 to 15 per rank would help ease the players into the system and not overwhelm... A lot of you are drifting off that subject. Please lock this thread mod's if its not getting used to talk about the original subject. 

[---Swaggi---]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Does it?

I could go level up a Hind without ever firing it by using a Melee weapon instead.

Same with a Pangolin Sword while using a Bramma.

Leveling something up doesn't imply actually using it whatsoever.

So really wanna tell me you lvl weapons without firing/attack with them even once? That maybe true but in this case only for you and high probably for a small minority of players and a even smaller group who does that witch many weapons xP

 

1 hour ago, RussXD said:

Please keep this thread about the original post i made on whether having a MR cap on how many warframes you can subsumed between MR 8 to 15 per rank would help ease the players into the system and not overwhelm... A lot of you are drifting off that subject. Please lock this thread mod's if its not getting used to talk about the original subject. 

It isnt really off topic since that what we said is that this system shouldnt be availabe at all for lower rank players. Even though you idea is not that bad but even when players have only one warframe they already can subsume roar and transfer it to every other warframe which is still crap 😕 

[Aldain]

Just now, ---Swaggi--- said:

So really wanna tell me you lvl weapons without firing/attack with them even once?

It isn't about what I want to do, it is the fact that it can be done.

That is why MR doesn't matter, because the weapons don't matter and the very concept often parroted of "MR fodder" alone is what cheapens MR as a metric of skill and knowledge.

[Lutesque]

How about you worry about yourself and stop *@##$ing about other players from having access to this feature....

The Helminth is already gated by Resources... Now you want to double gate it with MR Too ? 😐

[Voltage]

8 hours ago, Lutesque said:

The Helminth is already gated by Resources... Now you want to double gate it with MR Too ? 😐

Yes, because DE clearly is now going to balance it around MR 8 and make it easier later like they do to every update. It's about time we get some truly high Mastery locked stuff that is designed for the higher end in mind, not the new player.

[SweetAnubis]

7 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Yes, because DE clearly is now going to balance it around MR 8 and make it easier later like they do to every update. It's about time we get some truly high Mastery locked stuff that is designed for the higher end in mind, not the new player.

i'll say it again... MR does not determine skill level.

 

leme tell you my mastery story. For years i sat at MR9. not because i was terrible but because i had the gear i enjoyed and had no reason to level up other gear, minus a few frames here and there for missions where necessary. then i got a Riven i wanted to use that required MR 16. I ground that out in a matter of a week. It was hell and infuriating, where all i did was equipped S#&$ty gear and leveled it up on Hydron over and over and over again. I did this as quickly as possible so i could get back to actually playing the game with my shiny new riven in tow. If thats your idea of determining skill and experience you rly need to take another look.

However, i do believe there should be a bit of a buffer for something like this none the less... but MR is perhaps the worst way IMO. Put it behind the main questline like operators or something.

[Voltage]

43 minutes ago, SweetAnubis said:

i'll say it again... MR does not determine skill level.

 

leme tell you my mastery story. For years i sat at MR9. not because i was terrible but because i had the gear i enjoyed and had no reason to level up other gear, minus a few frames here and there for missions where necessary. then i got a Riven i wanted to use that required MR 16. I ground that out in a matter of a week. It was hell and infuriating, where all i did was equipped S#&$ty gear and leveled it up on Hydron over and over and over again. I did this as quickly as possible so i could get back to actually playing the game with my shiny new riven in tow. If thats your idea of determining skill and experience you rly need to take another look.

However, i do believe there should be a bit of a buffer for something like this none the less... but MR is perhaps the worst way IMO. Put it behind the main questline like operators or something.

Did I mention skill? No. Did I mention experience? No. I'm talking about resource costs, progression, and inventory. Mastery Rank 20+ players generally have more resources than a Mastery Rank 8 player. This system should be balanced around the higher end players with stockpiles and such. 

I don't care that you don't want to level up Mastery. That's on you. However, Mastery should have more meaning by having more progression associated with it. If you want to get the most out of the game, Mastery should be required to progress. If you want the most powerful system since Riven Mods, you should need to be a higher level player. That's just basic game design.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Yes, because DE clearly is now going to balance it around MR 8 and make it easier later like they do to every update. 

You mean like they did with The Panthera Prime ?

Nope... That's a level of consistency that DE is not capable of...

 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

It's about time we get some truly high Mastery locked stuff that is designed for the higher end in mind, not the new player.

I think they are more important things that need attending to than making veterans feel special about some pointless number...

Sorry but the whole MR Thing means nothing to me...

If the abilities are the problem then focus your feedback on that... MR has nothing to do with it even if DE Themselves say it does (should know better than to believe what they say by now).

1 hour ago, SweetAnubis said:

then i got a Riven i wanted to use that required MR 16. I ground that out in a matter of a week. It was hell and infuriating, where all i did was equipped S#&$ty gear and leveled it up on Hydron over and over and over again. I did this as quickly as possible so i could get back to actually playing the game with my shiny new riven in tow. If thats your idea of determining skill and experience you rly need to take another look.

PREACH !!!

1 hour ago, SweetAnubis said:

Put it behind the main questline like operators or something.

Indeed... We need to get this Story back on track so I can get rid of that God awful purple Hologram.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Did I mention skill? No. Did I mention experience? No. I'm talking about resource costs, progression, and inventory. Mastery Rank 20+ players generally have more resources than a Mastery Rank 8 player. This system should be balanced around the higher end players with stockpiles and such. 

I think it should be balanced around whoever wants to get rid their Warframe's ability regardless of whatever MR They are.

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

However, Mastery should have more meaning by having more progression associated with it. If you want to get the most out of the game, Mastery should be required to progress. If you want the most powerful system since Riven Mods, you should need to be a higher level player. That's just basic game design.

It's a free to play game... Alot of what we would consider basic game design just doesn't apply in this case.... It wouldn't surprise me if every solution to Warframe's problems are just not being implemented because they trying to figure out a way to Monetize the solution.

I think DE just lowered the MR just to increase the pool of players to be eligible to just Buy whatever they want out of the system. And I believe that's the real reason the MR was lowered.

As for why the Abilities get nerfed.... Let's be honest... They were gonna do that anyway....the MR thing is just a convenient Scape Goat.

 

They should scrap the Concept of Affinity too and just let you buy whichever MR you want to be...

[Aldain]

4 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:

I ground that out in a matter of a week. It was hell and infuriating, where all i did was equipped S#&$ty gear and leveled it up on Hydron over and over and over again. I did this as quickly as possible so i could get back to actually playing the game

That is why MR is an awful metric for anything, because it is effortless and meaningless. I did the exact same thing for a couple of Prime weapons, it actually took me longer for the foundry to build things than for me to level them up, and I did all of that without progressing a single inch and mostly getting little to no relevant resources outside of Sedna junk.

Anyone can grind out MR, anyone can grind out resources, magically putting a block for MR15 won't help in that regard and if a players wastes their resources on Helminth then it is just as bloody easy to go and get more of them.

Anyone wanting something locked at MR15 solely for the sake of having something "for the veterans" is just sad, because people simultaneously talk out one side of their mouth calling everything MR fodder and saying the game is too easy, only to turn around and say "you're not ready for this until you've leveled this many junk weapons" like it is something that matters in a supposedly easy game.

[GREF_TM]

MR is worthless and can sit at 0 for all i care. IMO their main priority should be making more of abilities on the list be actually worth picking via buffing/reworking them, and which level the system is locked behind is irrelevant.