CLOAK INEFFECTIVE?: Please explain how cloak is supposed to work in regards to detection

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

Over the course of 3y, I've had problems with various enemies nullifying cloak. Not by direct effect, but just X-ray vision and perfect tracking as if I weren't even cloaked. Usual case is when I run Ivara, and what I've had this problem with is:

• Dargyns (Plains of Eidolon) -- documented with a cloaked Ivara getting strafed despite having done NOTHING to attract attention; thankfully fixed
• Nox (Plains of Eidolon) -- fixed, likely about the same time the Dargyns were
• Nox (mission) -- fixed; until it ceased to occur, I was advising players with stealth frames to either prioritize eliminating or outright avoiding Nox as it could see/engage them 
• (unknown variant) Moa (Void) -- likely fixed some time ago
• Corrupted Moa (Infested Fissure) -- perfect tracking for two separate bursts even after cloaking; encountered early AUG-2020
• Corpus enemies (Orb Vallis), most notably Terra Elite Raptor SX -- presently active; last encountered personally in Temple of Profit basement

My understanding is that enemies will react to weapons fire from a cloaked enemy, but simply gravitate to investigate -- they will not attack if they cannot see a target to attack; if engaging another enemy, any hits to you will be stray. The problem is that in a previous encounter, the targeting was perfect despite my moving while cloaked, and in today's encounter, my non-radiation Imperator Vandal was fired from inside Ivara's cloak arrow, but I was still getting perfectly-targeted return fire by the Raptor, an underground turret (Temple of Profit), and a few other enemies

[EDM774]

enemies will indeed shoot at the source of gun fire sound. you can fix that by either being constantly on the move, but with that the sound source will also move or find a way to silence your guns. Sadly there is no silencer mod for arch guns yet.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

22 minutes ago, EDM774 said:

enemies will indeed shoot at the source of gun fire sound. you can fix that by either being constantly on the move, but with that the sound source will also move or find a way to silence your guns. Sadly there is no silencer mod for arch guns yet.

I'm aware there isn't a suppressor for archguns, but Ivara's cloak (from the test I just ran) looks to act as both a visual and sound cloak -- if enemies are alerted to weapons fire from an invisible source, they will run over and investigate, but not attack.

The problem is basically this:

The Ivara here was cloaked, did not fire, even moved position. Nox still aimed shots perfectly at her as it moved. If you think this was bad, try the Dargyn problem on PoE before DE fixed it -- the damn thing is faster than you can run (= I couldn't get outside 40m from it before it came back), could pick you up for no reason at all (despite cloak!), and (last I checked) can amble over to investigate from 200m away.

Given how I first noticed it with a Nox (mission), then a Moa in the Void, and now this, I wonder if this is one hell of a bug, or it's supposed to be a roaming thing where one particular enemy (on a rotating basis) is granted this BS ability to x-ray your cloak.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

I was waiting for cloak seeing enemies. Let’s gooooooo

[Kaotyke]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

I'm aware there isn't a suppressor for archguns, but Ivara's cloak (from the test I just ran) looks to act as both a visual and sound cloak -- if enemies are alerted to weapons fire from an invisible source, they will run over and investigate, but not attack.

The problem is basically this:

The Ivara here was cloaked, did not fire, even moved position. Nox still aimed shots perfectly at her as it moved. If you think this was bad, try the Dargyn problem on PoE before DE fixed it -- the damn thing is faster than you can run (= I couldn't get outside 40m from it before it came back), could pick you up for no reason at all (despite cloak!), and (last I checked) can amble over to investigate from 200m away.

This video is from 2018.

Are you saying its back or something?

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

3 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

This video is from 2018.

Are you saying its back or something?

The video is from 2018. The problem in the video has persisted on different enemies, as listed in the first post; last two encounters are from August 2020.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

The video is from 2018. The problem has persisted on a rotating basis.

Does DE use a versioning system for their source code? Because it seems they fix bugs in one release, but in future releases, the bug may show up again. Apparently like this one with cloaking. Or... like Revenant's Thralls causing Defense-breaking permanent allies.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

14 minutes ago, nslay said:

Does DE use a versioning system for their source code? Because it seems they fix bugs in one release, but in future releases, the bug may show up again.

I don't have enough knowledge in that field to say, but it's happened enough that something broken usually appears alongside a console fix that fixes get a double-edged sword reaction.

[MasterBurik]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

Over the course of 3y, I've had problems with various enemies nullifying cloak. Not by direct effect, but just X-ray vision and perfect tracking as if I weren't even cloaked. Usual case is when I run Ivara, and what I've had this problem with is:

• Dargyns (Plains of Eidolon) -- documented with a cloaked Ivara getting strafed despite having done NOTHING to attract attention; thankfully fixed
• Nox (Plains of Eidolon) -- fixed, likely about the same time the Dargyns were
• Nox (mission) -- fixed; until it ceased to occur, I was advising players with stealth frames to either prioritize eliminating or outright avoiding Nox as it could see/engage them 
• (unknown variant) Moa (Void) -- likely fixed some time ago
• Corrupted Moa (Infested Fissure) -- perfect tracking for two separate bursts even after cloaking; encountered early AUG-2020
• Corpus enemies (Orb Vallis), most notably Terra Elite Raptor SX -- presently active; last encountered personally in Temple of Profit basement

My understanding is that enemies will react to weapons fire from a cloaked enemy, but simply gravitate to investigate -- they will not attack if they cannot see a target to attack; if engaging another enemy, any hits to you will be stray. The problem is that in a previous encounter, the targeting was perfect despite my moving while cloaked, and in today's encounter, my non-radiation Imperator Vandal was fired from inside Ivara's cloak arrow, but I was still getting perfectly-targeted return fire by the Raptor, an underground turret (Temple of Profit), and a few other enemies

Just did some tests on the most recent on your list.

Corrupted Moa: Their lasers can continue to track Ivara, even after she is cloaked. I believe it has to do with how the abilities are written. The attack is a lengthy animation, so the lasers appear to be designed to independently track the target. So if they "lock on" (happens before the laser actually fires) just before you are cloaked, the lasers track you anyway.

Terra Elite Raptor SX: Some of its shots are "predictive", being aimed ahead of the direction you are moving towards (quite noticeable when strafing). If you are visible just before these shots are fired, you will often run right into it.

[TioMegaManX]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

Over the course of 3y, I've had problems with various enemies nullifying cloak. Not by direct effect, but just X-ray vision and perfect tracking as if I weren't even cloaked. Usual case is when I run Ivara, and what I've had this problem with is:

• Dargyns (Plains of Eidolon) -- documented with a cloaked Ivara getting strafed despite having done NOTHING to attract attention; thankfully fixed
• Nox (Plains of Eidolon) -- fixed, likely about the same time the Dargyns were
• Nox (mission) -- fixed; until it ceased to occur, I was advising players with stealth frames to either prioritize eliminating or outright avoiding Nox as it could see/engage them 
• (unknown variant) Moa (Void) -- likely fixed some time ago
• Corrupted Moa (Infested Fissure) -- perfect tracking for two separate bursts even after cloaking; encountered early AUG-2020
• Corpus enemies (Orb Vallis), most notably Terra Elite Raptor SX -- presently active; last encountered personally in Temple of Profit basement

My understanding is that enemies will react to weapons fire from a cloaked enemy, but simply gravitate to investigate -- they will not attack if they cannot see a target to attack; if engaging another enemy, any hits to you will be stray. The problem is that in a previous encounter, the targeting was perfect despite my moving while cloaked, and in today's encounter, my non-radiation Imperator Vandal was fired from inside Ivara's cloak arrow, but I was still getting perfectly-targeted return fire by the Raptor, an underground turret (Temple of Profit), and a few other enemies

I have been targeted by syndicate units while invisible as Loki, also, even if it is not cloaked per se enemies ignore Spectrorage mirrors and keep shooting at me from within the circle, same goes for Nyx Chaos, enemies can be close to each other but will prioritize me, on Sponge Path while using Octavia with max range enemies ignore the mallet and keep shooting at me.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Of all the things to forget mentioning for the "clairvoyant enemies following stealth with unerring precision" problem, you missed out the Rampart Turrets?

 

Sound, delayed vision, or even just happening to be aggressive from something entirely not you can all make enemies on those damn things pinpoint stealthed targets and BRRT them into oblivion. Even if all that happened is something physically touched the Rampart itself, like your local idiot Kavat.

 

This has always been a problem for stealth in general being outright ignored (hi, Profit Taker) or disrespected (impossibly tracked after becoming a confirmed target) and there's lots more examples where noise alerting is enough to get things pointed pixel-precise your way.  _{Ivara has it worst because of her whole problem with being made visible for the crime of shooting loud guns in Prowl, unlike all the other stealth sources.}

 

There needs to be, at least, a significant margin for error on any quite literal blind-firing enemies choose to do in response to 'suspicious' stimulus like physical contact or audio tells from an invisible entity.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

40 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Of all the things to forget mentioning for the "clairvoyant enemies following stealth with unerring precision" problem, you missed out the Rampart Turrets?

Don't recall running across those, actually.

I realize I didn't include everything. Thinking back, I realize I forgot the giant Fortuna spiders that intrude on the base, as well as the kavats on Oryx's Dreadnought Orokin Derelict -- both can see through any cloak and attack the Operator.

[AConfusedBird]

ive had this problem with the Thumpers on the plains. they consistently turn their remaining weak spots away from you, which is reasonable behavior when they can see the threat, but ridiculously unfair when you're invisible.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

Over the course of 3y, I've had problems with various enemies nullifying cloak. Not by direct effect, but just X-ray vision and perfect tracking as if I weren't even cloaked. Usual case is when I run Ivara, and what I've had this problem with is:

• Dargyns (Plains of Eidolon) -- documented with a cloaked Ivara getting strafed despite having done NOTHING to attract attention; thankfully fixed
• Nox (Plains of Eidolon) -- fixed, likely about the same time the Dargyns were
• Nox (mission) -- fixed; until it ceased to occur, I was advising players with stealth frames to either prioritize eliminating or outright avoiding Nox as it could see/engage them 
• (unknown variant) Moa (Void) -- likely fixed some time ago
• Corrupted Moa (Infested Fissure) -- perfect tracking for two separate bursts even after cloaking; encountered early AUG-2020
• Corpus enemies (Orb Vallis), most notably Terra Elite Raptor SX -- presently active; last encountered personally in Temple of Profit basement

My understanding is that enemies will react to weapons fire from a cloaked enemy, but simply gravitate to investigate -- they will not attack if they cannot see a target to attack; if engaging another enemy, any hits to you will be stray. The problem is that in a previous encounter, the targeting was perfect despite my moving while cloaked, and in today's encounter, my non-radiation Imperator Vandal was fired from inside Ivara's cloak arrow, but I was still getting perfectly-targeted return fire by the Raptor, an underground turret (Temple of Profit), and a few other enemies

You should also add "Any Grineer in a turret" to your list.  If you attract their attention, they'll start firing the turret at the last point they saw you or even suspected you of being.  Since the turrets do pretty massive damage even at relatively low levels, this has on several different occasions resulted in my Warframe getting chopped in half before I realized I was even being shot at.

[DragoonStorm1]

Doesn't ivara de-cloak when you fire an unsilenced weapon? (and returns to cloak automatically when you stop)

But you could use loki's invisibility augment that silences all weapons, to try out on archguns.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

55 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

You should also add "Any Grineer in a turret" to your list.  If you attract their attention, they'll start firing the turret at the last point they saw you or even suspected you of being.  Since the turrets do pretty massive damage even at relatively low levels, this has on several different occasions resulted in my Warframe getting chopped in half before I realized I was even being shot at.

That one I do recall running across, but not for a cloak bug, and only drawing fire if they can see me.

28 minutes ago, DragoonStorm1 said:

Doesn't ivara de-cloak when you fire an unsilenced weapon? (and returns to cloak automatically when you stop)

But you could use loki's invisibility augment that silences all weapons, to try out on archguns.

Ivara doesn't decloak if you fire a suppressed weapon, which is where the problem lies.

Also, the thing about this problem is that it's as if all cloaks are treated as null-effect without visually disabling it. In the video,

1. Shade isn't being run, so she's not being cloaked by a Sentinel
2. Ivara's cloak ability is active.

If it were targeting her last location, the second shot is off-target, and it's effectively doing something like

 

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, AConfusedBird said:

ive had this problem with the Thumpers on the plains. they consistently turn their remaining weak spots away from you, which is reasonable behavior when they can see the threat, but ridiculously unfair when you're invisible.

Thumpers are just a ridiculously poorly designed "miniboss" on pretty much every level.  They have no attack pattern that I've been able to make out, they just spastically jump around like a flea hopped up on cocaine.  When they aren't jumping 200 feet in a random direction, they turn constantly to keep their last weak spot away from whoever they've agro'd on, and unlike better designed bosses they don't even have much in the way of animations or attacks that make it even *possible* to flank them.  Such as, for example, if they actually had to turn so their various giant cannons actually aimed at their target.  Since even the artillery looking one seems to be able to fire into a 180 degree arc, it never has to turn more than a small amount.)

As near as I can tell they aren't even set up so that you can brute force it and just chip away through their damage resistance - if you didn't bring one of the small number of Warframes who can actually do ANYTHING to lock them down, sucks to be you.  The design might make some kind of sense as an "actual war machine."  It's incredibly frustrating as "an enemy in a game you're allegedly meant to be able to fight."

That's setting aside the whole part where they constantly knock you down with their cannon shots and movement, followed by a HUGE wave of AoE knockdown spam.  Tracking you while you're invisible is about the *least* cheaty thing they do.  😞

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

You're talking about an enemy with AoE attacks that (far as I've encountered) haven't targeted you despite your cloak; it's one (irrelevant) case if there's other targets nearby that a Thumper's lighting up and catching you with it; it's another (and relevant) if you're alone and it's lighting you up with its cannon.

[EmberStar]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Raven-Ghosthawk said:

You're talking about an enemy with AoE attacks that (far as I've encountered) haven't targeted you despite your cloak; it's one (irrelevant) case if there's other targets nearby that a Thumper's lighting up and catching you with it; it's another (and relevant) if you're alone and it's lighting you up with its cannon.

It's relevant that even if they're not attacking you, they'll rotate to keep their last knee as far from you as possible even when you are cloaked.  (At least they appeared to do so the few times I bothered to try fighting them as Ivara.)  Given how quickly they can rotate and the insane frequency at which they jump around, it makes fighting one as anything but max power strength Slow Nova *incredibly* frustrating if you're solo.  To the point that I personally ignore them entirely now, unless I'm deliberately hunting them.  You'd think Loki or Ivara would be ideal, since it seems plausible that you *should* be able to get on the far side of them while they "can't see you."  Only, they apparently CAN see you, even if they can't attack you directly.

[MacKerris]

5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

It's relevant that even if they're not attacking you, they'll rotate to keep their last knee as far from you as possible even when you are cloaked.  (At least they appeared to do so the few times I bothered to try fighting them as Ivara.)  Given how quickly they can rotate and the insane frequency at which they jump around, it makes fighting one as anything but max power strength Slow Nova *incredibly* frustrating if you're solo.  To the point that I personally ignore them entirely now, unless I'm deliberately hunting them.  You'd think Loki or Ivara would be ideal, since it seems plausible that you *should* be able to get on the far side of them while they "can't see you."  Only, they apparently CAN see you, even if they can't attack you directly.

Oh they know your there. I just fought one a couple of days ago while invisible. The the thing hid it's legs, charged me, and aimed at me even though I was invisible.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]