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This has been the battle of the community from the start.

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory?

Also, why cant we have both?

Im curious to see because it seem that these two groups can never agree on how broken the system is. Either its too easy or players complain about how difficult it may be.

Also what direction does DE want us to navigate towards?

Edited by kwlingo
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When I'm feelin lazy, or want to finish something faster, I pick whatever is efficient.

When I want to have fun, I'll pick whatever I'm in the mood for. Edit: An efficient frame can also be fun.

In an action game like Warframe, I believe that DE wants players to be a bit more on the edge. Maybe they allow nuke frames to a certain degree, cause they know how grindy the game can get sometimes.

Edited by Aguzo
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15 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

This has been the battle of the community from the start.

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory?

Also, why cant we have both?

Im curious to see because it seem that these two groups can never agree on how broken the system is. Either its too easy or players complain about how difficult it maybe.

Also what direction does DE want us to navigate towards?

Too much of either is a bad thing. I cannot stand clicker games personally, because I find it boring. Likewise, as much as I love games like Dark souls, or a metroid, I have to take a break to not start hating it.  Warframe is not one or the other, because that would be a false dichotomy. It is instead a mix, where its up to the player to decide which they want. Everyone has the tools to decide that. 

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15 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory?

Option 3, a medium length battle with a combination of single shots on lesser targets and a dedicated engagement with a "champion" unit which empowers other units until taken down, demanding a use of multiple skills depending on the target and approach taken.

...I'm a very insistent believer in avoiding extremes, and extreme neutral one might say.

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26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Option 3, a medium length battle with a combination of single shots on lesser targets and a dedicated engagement with a "champion" unit which empowers other units until taken down, demanding a use of multiple skills depending on the target and approach taken.

...I'm a very insistent believer in avoiding extremes, and extreme neutral one might say.

Agree one of the best game modes was Disruptions with Demos, intended for exactly what you said. I believe if they improve on that kind of enemy unit spawn on a regular basis all around, It would give players a better opportunity for satisfaction of completion and not cheese the entire mission with nukes.

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You have that in some fights. Eidolon and profit taker stretch the mechanics of the game at a point where you have to do different things to win and meet certains tresholds of skill/power. Nothing like that since 2018, maybe land scarlet spear to some extent but it stoped scalling at a very, maybe too much, manageable point imho

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I think part of challenge of warframe is basically the grind and achieving a good build then the reward is being an op space ninja killing everything in sight,that’s rewarding to me. For the real test your skills type challenge I think steel path is disappointing to a lot of people to a lot of people because it’s only bullet sponge ai and nothing else. Here’s what I think: Just get rid of shorties since it’s just a back burner with poor rewards and make steel path the new shorties with different types of modifiers like shorties. Shorties are not good in that it’s trying to hide and limit time of the challenge from other players. If you make steel path the new shorties with different kinda of modifiers and making enemies do different things then I think people would enjoy steel path a lot more.

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Il y a 6 heures, Aldain a dit :

Option 3, a medium length battle with a combination of single shots on lesser targets and a dedicated engagement with a "champion" unit which empowers other units until taken down, demanding a use of multiple skills depending on the target and approach taken.

...I'm a very insistent believer in avoiding extremes, and extreme neutral one might say.

You mean, like eximus units ? ^^

Nah I know that they drop like flies too don't worry. I'd give them a couple things :

-bit more health than they have now

-moveset like thralls, they each could have a random ability that thralls have, would give them more personnality imo.

-implement that old idea of weak spots that need to be broken, exactly like the current NW ennemies. I know we all jumped from our seat when the idea was first shown, me included, but after dealing with the cephalites, it actually doesn't feel that bad. You can still mash melee to break all the weak spots, but the added mobility from the previous point could somewhat counteract this a bit.

Idk how effective that would be, but I'd try something like that. And it would only use already existing assets. 

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it's pretty clear DE have been leaning towards easy mode rather than challenge:

- most of the "challenge" attempts have involved bullet sponges, invul phases etc, the easiest and lowest effort way to try and create difficulty, because it's not what they really want to do.

- constantly backtracking on "veteran" systems: recently with Helminth, but this is not the first time. remember when the original plan for the Plains of Eidolon was for daytime to be for everyone and nighttime to be much harder, where only skilled players might survive? and then they made it so that anyone can take on an Eidolon, even if they haven't unlocked Spoiler Mode yet.

- actual punishment for endurance runners: even now people who decide to go for several hours end up getting trade bans and such because the algorithms that decide what's legit and what's an exploit are pure spaghetti. the worst part is, it's STILL happening, years later. DE don't do anything about it though, because they don't want you to spend 3 hours or more in the same mission. they HATE the endurance runners.

- and most crucial of all: newer players and casual players who aren't looking for a challenge, are the majority now, and the most likely to spend money. they make more profit from newer players than they do retaining older ones, and it takes more effort to retain older players, because you have to figure out what they like, whereas newer players will try anything.

 

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8 hours ago, kwlingo said:

This has been the battle of the community from the start.

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory?

Also, why cant we have both?

Im curious to see because it seem that these two groups can never agree on how broken the system is. Either its too easy or players complain about how difficult it may be.

Also what direction does DE want us to navigate towards?

Of course the second one if rng and the way you acquire things was not tied to repeating the same mission/boss/thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over... again.
Eidolons had potential to be both, but...they put all the rewards in all the eidolons. If they were only legendary arcanes for the last one(only common for the first, rare for the second etc), but the battle was way more difficult it could alleviate the repetition problem.
Or with any other boss, mission etc - the more difficult it is the more appealing rewards it gives with no "vitality" rewards at the 3-4 hour mark of a survival or something.

tl;dr if we are talking about the current state of acquiring something that is tied to rng and mind numbing repetition of the same thing I vote One click to win with all hands and feet.

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Personally I'd be satisfied if we had anything that attempted to use even half of our loadout. The closest the game has even come to that is Profit Taker potentially requiring multiple differently modded weapons, void damage (barely counts as operator progression means nothing in the fight), and your Archgun. Yet Profit Taker is so painfully easy that it can be casually soloed in well under five to three minutes.

What's really rewarding? For our progression to matter for once beyond the first few dozen hours into the game. Operators, Arcanes, companions, Primes, soon the Helminth system, and then some are all just toys to fiddle with that have no purpose to exist in the game besides bloating our numbers and potential output to even further exceed anything the game actually offers us to do. If WF wants to be a collectathon and nothing else then DE might as well get to rebranding it as such.

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8 hours ago, kwlingo said:

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory

One click to win. The other option is infuriating, cause it never feels like I've won through skill but rather through pure luck. Also, I hate wasting my time. Even in games like Dark Souls, which I freakin' love, I'm still OP as hell cause anything other than that means I'm relying on RNG to win, and that's not satisfying at all. Using my whole skill set means I wipe the floor with everything... not rolling dice to see who wins between the unmovable wall and the unstoppable object.

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Imo part of the problem is that players lack self reflection. They don't understand what fun means for them, and how the game interacts with their mind. They strive for the i-win-button and when they have it they complain about how boring the game is and blame the developer for a lack of challenge. But the game can never offer hardcore players constant challenging rewarding content without running on a 100$/month subscription. But the core player base would never play that content so it's just not profitable. And that's why those bored obsessive hardcore players will always exhaust the games systems, engaging in grind out of their own free will and then complain that it's exhausting. Why are they doing it then? Again the cause lies within themselves. The game does not expect you play that way.

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3 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

implement that old idea of weak spots that need to be broken, exactly like the current NW ennemies. I know we all jumped from our seat when the idea was first shown, me included, but after dealing with the cephalites, it actually doesn't feel that bad. You can still mash melee to break all the weak spots, but the added mobility from the previous point could somewhat counteract this a bit.

It would need to be optional rather than outright required, but such things can work well.

Most people don't have an issue with Nox units for example who run on similar logic, same with Bursa units needing to be cycled around to hit their back panel.

Warframe needs more enemies that need engagement to defeat in a timely manner imo, super precise "weak point or 0 damage" things are a bit too much, but if they could design more units like the Nox and Bursa and make them more common to some extent, perhaps also make them harder to stagger or knockdown (i.e. Impact would need a full 10 stacks to stagger, light stagger from some abilities are ignored, hard ragdolls are turned into stagger, things like that).

That's one of Warframe's bigger problems, it is often just "enemy with gun" and "enemy with bigger gun" rather than any major differences between light, medium and heavy units.

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10 hours ago, kwlingo said:

 

Im curious to see because it seem that these two groups can never agree on how broken the system is. Either its too easy or players complain about how difficult it may be.

 

it is easy fundementally becasue enemy AI is super predictable and boring to fight(generally speaking) , and it becomes only hard when you bloat their sheer numbers up so they become one hitters with aim-bots and have millions of Ehp . The latter is not challenge but artificial difficulty that is bypassable by cheesing and for the easy parts of the game it gets old after some time , for nuking the same level 30-80's over and over again . 

If you ask me more enemies like Zanuka and the iterations of it would spice things up , it has great mobility just like us , it has telegraphed attacks that you can react to its animations  and can be more tanky than it looks because of its mobility  , just like how people compliement the nox enemy design for having a headshot reward element far better than most enemies and he is threathening too if you ignore him . 

That is how i view it at least. 

Edited by killerJoke66
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10 hours ago, kwlingo said:

This has been the battle of the community from the start.

One click to win VS a long battle utilizing your entire skill set to prove your victory?

Also, why cant we have both?

Im curious to see because it seem that these two groups can never agree on how broken the system is. Either its too easy or players complain about how difficult it may be.

Also what direction does DE want us to navigate towards?

Depends on the game, for WF I'd say something in the middle, some purple area which mixes one-hit wonder mobs with those that require a more lengthy combat.

I tried the Marvel's Avengers beta this weeked and the devs there seemed to wanna go with the red option, which just felt so out of place since it doesnt make any sense to have Hulk beat a simple random badguy henchman over and over before it dies. During this whole time I kept thinking "why cant it be more like WF?". Not that I wanted a map wiping skill, but I wanted superheroes that felt like superheroes and not cosplayers. 

WF is a bit too much over at the blue end, we surely could use to be toned down quite a bit to move us more towards the red option. Just as the Avengers game made me feel like it could move more towards the blue option. But again I think it also comes down to mob diversity which results in either or. We just dont face enough "elites" that cannot simply be wiped out with a single press of a button.

A solution to this in WF would be more weakpoint mobs that require aiming and not just things that can be wiped out with some sporasma or a well placed whip in a cage. Those same mobs should also be immune to abilities, so they can breach our safe zones like when playing Khora, so you arent 100% safe in your caged up area etc.

I'm interested to see how well the nekramech mobs are designed, if they can be a potential future mob setup for slightly harder mobs that are more designed for "manual" combat instead of 1HK wipe the map style gameplay.

 

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il y a 39 minutes, Aldain a dit :

It would need to be optional rather than outright required, but such things can work well.

Most people don't have an issue with Nox units for example who run on similar logic, same with Bursa units needing to be cycled around to hit their back panel.

Warframe needs more enemies that need engagement to defeat in a timely manner imo, super precise "weak point or 0 damage" things are a bit too much, but if they could design more units like the Nox and Bursa and make them more common to some extent, perhaps also make them harder to stagger or knockdown (i.e. Impact would need a full 10 stacks to stagger, light stagger from some abilities are ignored, hard ragdolls are turned into stagger, things like that).

That's one of Warframe's bigger problems, it is often just "enemy with gun" and "enemy with bigger gun" rather than any major differences between light, medium and heavy units.

Yeah, completely forgot about those cosmonauts XD. Indeed, maybe not full invulnerability, but nox's DR until all are destroyed.

Or even better : each eximus could have like 4 weak spots, and the DR would be (noxDR x number of weak spot remaining). I know it's most likely not gonna be implemented but heck, nice to think about

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5 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- most of the "challenge" attempts have involved bullet sponges, invul phases etc, the easiest and lowest effort way to try and create difficulty, because it's not what they really want to do.

Steel Path lol

5 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

- and most crucial of all: newer players and casual players who aren't looking for a challenge, are the majority now, and the most likely to spend money. they make more profit from newer players than they do retaining older ones, and it takes more effort to retain older players, because you have to figure out what they like, whereas newer players will try anything.

This is what I believe is the direction of DE also. Profits > content.

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On 2020-08-24 at 8:28 AM, killerJoke66 said:

If you ask me more enemies like Zanuka and the iterations of it would spice things up , it has great mobility just like us , it has telegraphed attacks that you can react to its animations  and can be more tanky than it looks because of its mobility  , just like how people compliement the nox enemy design for having a headshot reward element far better than most enemies and he is threathening too if you ignore him . 

It would be nice if possible a specter version of the Assassination on the current planet would randomly spawn similar to how the Wolf, Lich and Stalker spawn. Because these units are sometimes ability immune or resistant. Kind of crazy when in Steel Path a Stalker, Lich, and Ambulas all spawn durring a Disruption with Demos charging at you going solo. This is the kind of difficulty DE needs to have more of.

Edited by kwlingo
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