Exalted Weapons are practically useless

[brunoswaag04]

Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds are what make melee weapons good, and exalted melee weapons can't use them. the if exalted weapons were able to use Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds they would actually worth the crazy energy cost. So please DE, it would be a really easy fix.  

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, brunoswaag04 said:

the if exalted weapons were able to use Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds they would actually worth the crazy energy cost.

Would they? Melee is already incredibly powerful, and more than capable of shredding everything in this game. If you make Exalted Weapons just do more damage, then what, they shred enemies in 0.2 seconds instead of 0.3?

That still wouldn't justify their energy cost, imo. The lack of Rivens and Exodia's also noticeably hurts Exalted Weapons ofc.

[brunoswaag04]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

Would they? Melee is already incredibly powerful, and more than capable of shredding everything in this game. If you make Exalted Weapons just do more damage, then what, they shred enemies in 0.2 seconds instead of 0.3?

That still wouldn't justify their energy cost, imo. The lack of Rivens and Exodia's also noticeably hurts Exalted Weapons ofc.

exalted melee weapons have great base stats as they should but they are useally worse than a good regular melee weapon because they don't scale as well

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, brunoswaag04 said:

exalted melee weapons have great base stats as they should but they are useally worse than a good regular melee weapon because they don't scale as well

You appear to have ignored everything I said.

If you make Exalted Weapons scale just as well, so what? You will be killing enemies at roughly the same speed as normal melee. Why would you pay energy for a similar killing speed? Yes, damage buffs need to come, but they alone won't make them worth the energy cost.

[CopperBezel]

And there's always going to be something better that doesn't cost energy. Look at Hildryn's Balefire Charger, which isn't a melee weapon and doesn't come with these extra limitations on mod points and combo mods. It scales with her Strength and Range, so it should be pretty impressive, right? Except that the Akarius and Staticor happen to exist as more effective versions of the semiauto grenade pistol. 

[Marine027]

They are not suppsoed to REPLACE the weapon type, they are a ability, like Valkyr beeing invlunerable or Wukong basically using two staffs at once with his kit.

Some need simple tweaks to be more abilitys with extras then just a extra weapon simply.

[NinjaZeku]

Ability weapons generally (should) have something besides damage that makes them attractive.

Excal and Baruuk have ranged properties on their strikes, Valkyr is invincible and leeches Heath, Mesa gets an aimbot, ...

I'd rather see these extra features enhanced if necessary, than just the damage aspect.

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Valkyr beeing invlunerable

Other frames have substantially cheaper invulnerability. Cost not justified.

7 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Wukong basically using two staffs at once with his kit.

Oh, you mean the fact that his clone will put away a substantially more powerful weapon and pull out an inferior stick it doesn't know how to use? Because clearly it wasn't bad enough that the "ability" costs 5 sodding energy per second, but it has to be statistically worse in almost every way as well.

[CopperBezel]

20 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

They are not suppsoed to REPLACE the weapon type, they are a ability

I think that's correct, but the trouble is that at low MR, they're powerful weapons that come with an ability, and at high MR, they're weak abilities that come with a penalty of using a weak weapon. To my eye, only Mesa and Titania among all exalted weapon users really have an ability to which some weapons incidentally come attached and don't drag it down. On the other end, you have Excalibur, whose Exalted Blade either does or doesn't have more DPS than your equipped melee because the "ability" aspect is only about adding damage, and Wukong, who doesn't get an ability at all as discussed. In the middle is Valkyr, who can choose to heal at the cost of slowing down her melee damage, which is fine but not very exciting.

[Lutesque]

Artemis Bow just makes me cry....

Also when is Booben/Protea going to get an Exhalted Sentinal ?

[Marine027]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb DeMonkey:

Other frames have substantially cheaper invulnerability. Cost not justified.

Oh, you mean the fact that his clone will put away a substantially more powerful weapon and pull out an inferior stick it doesn't know how to use? Because clearly it wasn't bad enough that the "ability" costs 5 sodding energy per second, but it has to be statistically worse in almost every way as well.

Why i said some need tweaks but not just damage or else you can use any other weapon still also. You should want use an ability, same issue we have with crap ablitys and the upcoming Helmith system.

Good to know that you ignore my last sentence. As said again for you, they nead tweaks, they were examples, but people have to take everythign literal and pull it out of context.

[Marine027]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb CopperBezel:

I think that's correct, but the trouble is that at low MR, they're powerful weapons that come with an ability, and at high MR, they're weak abilities that come with a penalty of using a weak weapon. To my eye, only Mesa and Titania among all exalted weapon users really have an ability to which some weapons incidentally come attached and don't drag it down. On the other end, you have Excalibur, whose Exalted Blade either does or doesn't have more DPS than your equipped melee because the "ability" aspect is only about adding damage, and Wukong, who doesn't get an ability at all as discussed. In the middle is Valkyr, who can choose to heal at the cost of slowing down her melee damage, which is fine but not very exciting.

Agreeign on that, why i say they do need more tweask which not jsut come down to some damagme numbers.

It simply saddens me how every game today comes down to a math project instead of playing for the gameplay, of course it needs to be efficent, but peopel compare often even minimal difference and call it not worth it, so no suprise we got to many weapons and frames which are 60% worthless, not becuase new weapons made them not worhz it but the community brandingthem worthless.

I do say numbers are a problem of course but the community not makes it better often sadly, we see the outcry with Helmith with Roar and Warcry nerfed before even released.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Marine027 said:

As said again for you, they nead tweaks, they were examples, but people have to take everythign literal and pull it out of context.

I didn't pull anything out of context. You explicitly referred to the Clones usage of a second staff as... relevant, or ability like? "These shouldn't be extra weapons, they are abilities".

It's not, it's a handicap and it will always be a handicap. AI simply works better with guns. No simple tweak is going to change that. Wukong basically using two staves is a negative.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Marine027 said:

They are not suppsoed to REPLACE the weapon type, they are a ability, like Valkyr beeing invlunerable or Wukong basically using two staffs at once with his kit.

Some need simple tweaks to be more abilitys with extras then just a extra weapon simply.

Yeah, that doesn’t really work if the exalted weapon is too weak to ever consider using. Serene Storm, Exalted Blade, and Hysteria with its newest augment are all strong enough to justify using. Iron Staff is worthless. It’s peak performance is miles behind the other exalted melees and normal melees.

[CopperBezel]

32 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

It's not, it's a handicap and it will always be a handicap. AI simply works better with guns. No simple tweak is going to change that. Wukong basically using two staves is a negative.

Yep. The nicest thing about Wuclone is his ability to point my Chakkhurr at people I can't reach while I'm Orthosing around. 

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

The nicest thing about Wuclone is his ability to point my Chakkhurr at people I can't reach while I'm Orthosing around. 

Pfft.

If you aren't using Wuclone to give yourself a high-five during a pandemic when no one else can, then you aren't using him properly.

[CopperBezel]

Valid, valid X ]

[sunderthefirmament]

Exalted weapons do have an innate advantage that a lot of veterans might not think about much anymore: built in catalysts.  When I was new and averse to spending any money on this game, Valkyr's claws and Excalibur's blade were fantastic because they had more capacity than I had mods to fill.  They're not "practically useless" if they carry you through the star chart until you are better established.

[CopperBezel]

Oh, they're exceptionally good for newer players. I mean, how much content does a person normally play through before getting their hands on Blood Rush? And MR requirements for weapons are supposed to make the most powerful ones inaccessible at low MR. It's mitigated by the fact that you don't have unlimited energy at that state either and getting to use this awesome weapon is a legit power-up state you can trigger when you need it. Up to like, MR10 maybe, I think exalted melees are fantastic for exactly what they're meant to do. 

[selig_fay]

8 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Exalted weapons do have an innate advantage that a lot of veterans might not think about much anymore: built in catalysts.  When I was new and averse to spending any money on this game, Valkyr's claws and Excalibur's blade were fantastic because they had more capacity than I had mods to fill.  They're not "practically useless" if they carry you through the star chart until you are better established.

Are you kidding me? It can't even be an argument, because the catalyst is easy to get at now. Much easier than in the old days. And you know what? Newbies are the first people to give up exalted weapons because they don't know how to manage energy.

This opinion only hurts the concept, because exalted abilities become almost useless in the late game, where you need a shaman build, otherwise it will be very losing to regular weapons. And you know. Instead of making a shaman build and wasting energy on weapons without unique properties, maybe you should just take a regular weapon?

[TheLexiConArtist]

They also have the advantage of just adding concurrent tools to your kit which you can build differently to your in-slot equivalent. Damage types, statuses, utilities like Shattering Impact. Non-melee types are a backup infinite ammo weapon pulling from the energy pool instead if you're the type who doesn't just casúl it up with restoration pads every time they hit the slightest inconvenience.

Not everything has to be about 'this has more damage'. Find another angle for them or make your builds for the rest of the kit at the expense of them.

 

Face it, if they were all Peacemaker tier, you'd just be arguing "what's the point of <Frame> having <Equivalent weapon slot> when they can just use their exalted?" instead anyway.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

They also have the advantage of just adding concurrent tools to your kit which you can build differently to your in-slot equivalent.

That's only an advantage if your other tools are lacking in areas.

As it stands, they aren't. 

This would also ofc require constant recasting of the weapon, which massively drives up it's energy cost and costs precious seconds of weapon switching. An energy/time cost that in no way justifies whatever minor advantage you might get out of having a different element on your other melee weapon, instead of just having it on your instant firing gun in the first place.

I mean honestly, this just sounds like a disadvantage to me.

7 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Face it, if they were all Peacemaker tier, you'd just be arguing "what's the point of <Frame> having <Equivalent weapon slot> when they can just use their exalted?" instead anyway

You realise this logic defeats itself? Peacemaker is Peacemaker tier, where are the threads entitled "what's the point of Mesa having a secondary weapon slot when they can just use their exalted?".

[DatDarkOne]

Maybe, just maybe...this is another sign that weapons, and weapon mods for them might just be out of control.   

While it would be possible to buff exalted weapons, It wouldn't really solve the underlying issues that have become a problem in the game. 

One of the major issues is that of the massive powercreep provided by weapon mods.  Sadly there is no "easy" solution to this.  Correction, maybe I should say there is no solution that will be easily accepted by the players.  I have a solution, but it would be guaranteed to royally tick off quite a few players.  

[TheLexiConArtist]

19 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's only an advantage if your other tools are lacking in areas.

As it stands, they aren't. 

This would also ofc require constant recasting of the weapon, which massively drives up it's energy cost and costs precious seconds of weapon switching. An energy/time cost that in no way justifies whatever minor advantage you might get out of having a different element on your other melee weapon, instead of just having it on your instant firing gun in the first place.

I mean honestly, this just sounds like a disadvantage to me.

Unless your build is pure Duration with lacking Efficiency to minimise channelling costs alone, the recast is probably not going to impede you much over just.. holding it. And then there's ArtBow which pays itself back if you avoid shooting it once or twice by switching per convenience.

We do have weapon-switching these days, too. So, it's less about re-casting between one weapon and its exalted counterpart in that instance and more along the lines of, for example, "do I want my radiation standard or my corrosive exalted to supplement my other weapons-in-hand right now".

I'm not really looking at the blind min-maxing numbers game of pure dullest meta where in that example you'd likely say 'neither, where is my slash proc'. It's a bit of a fools' errand to try to satisfy everyone with everything at that level, s'just designing yourself into a corner there.

 

Still, there's the occasional edge case where it works, like when you're Toxxing it up against Sponge Path Corpus and then there's just that one occasional Bursa with armour that needs handling. Probably more efficient to Tox than Slash through the rest of the units' shields, so you keep the slash or other anti-armour for the few times you need to pull it out.

19 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You realise this logic defeats itself? Peacemaker is Peacemaker tier, where are the threads entitled "what's the point of Mesa having a secondary weapon slot when they can just use their exalted?".

They're quietly redundant, because Peacemaker goes even higher than that, the question being "what's the point of Mesa having entire allies in her squad when she can just use Peacemaker".

I'm sure that's not too difficult to find.

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Unless your build is pure Duration with lacking Efficiency to minimise channelling costs alone, the recast is probably not going to impede you much over just.. holding it.

Of course it is? The recast at base is 10x the cost of holding it out for a second for Wukong. There's not much mods can do about that given it's unlikely you'll be using fleeting.

Given you can already instantly swap between 2 elements (melee to gun) and swap to a third for zero energy (other gun) I fail to see why having a 4th element tucked behind energy is beneficial.

13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I'm not really looking at the blind min-maxing numbers game of pure dullest meta where in that example you'd likely say 'neither, where is my slash proc'.

Nor am I, I'm looking at the fun value.

There is no fun value in the only advantage of a 5 eps weapon being pointlessly "supplemental".

14 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Still, there's the occasional edge case where it works, like when you're Toxxing it up against Sponge Path Corpus

Wasn't there that whole thing about Steel Path not being something the game is balanced around?

16 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

They're quietly redundant, because Peacemaker goes even higher than that, the question being "what's the point of Mesa having entire allies in her squad when she can just use Peacemaker".

Good job avoiding answering, I guess.