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Helminth ability values....


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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

 

Like what? Null Star? An ability that requires 285% duration to barely exceed what base Defy can do (85% vs 83%)? Not to mention that you lose DR by virtue of the particles flying away when you get close to enemies, which makes it not ideal for melee builds. Great if you're Saryn and Mesa and Equinox standing still while nuking the map or if you always stay far from enemies on top of requiring high duration for the buff. Not very good vs. Defy if you're a melee player or if you're only using Narrow Minded (199% // 60% DR) or Primed Continuity (155% // 45% DR) because most melee frames don't benefit from duration nearly as much. Gauss is the only exception because ALL of Redline's buffs scale off duration with minimum to no drawbacks for the rest of his abilities.

And you are free to throw in that Guardian Exists. A normal Defy means you can take out Guardian to replace it with Fury/Strike/Energize while having almost double the armor value. This is the ability I was going to give Mirage (Replacing Sleight of Hand)  before the nerf was announced to give her a reliable defensive buffer without compromising anything else. Now I have nothing for her.

Yikes. CC/utility for grouping..........which prevents dmg in a direct sense. Think outside the box a little bit If you want to get in mobs face and take uneccessary damage, thats your thing, but that doesnt make defy a good ability, nor the armor compared to other options. lets also forget rolling guard exists and is standard on most tank builds or squishy frames.

Edited by Tonin4ABonin
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21 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

ikes. CC/utility for grouping..........which prevents dmg in a direct sense.

By that logic you might as well say that Mend & Maim and Peacemaker are the best forms of damage mitigation because a dead enemy deals no damage. That is indeed a technically, objectively true statement that happens to be quite asinine at the same time. 

21 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

Think outside the box a little bit If you want to get in mobs face and take uneccessary damage thats your thing

Avoiding mobs from a safe distance while killing with abilities bores the hell out of me. I'm likely the only Khora main in these boards who doesn't do Accumulated Whipclaw unless I'm explicitly farming rather than having a good time.

I don't do ultra-efficient, automated meta builds. If that's how you have fun then you do you. I play this game like Dynasty Warriors, which happens to be the way the game's director described the melee system.

21 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

but that doesnt make defy a good ability, nor the armor compared to other options

It is, and I flat-out gave you an example why while you failed to do so, shifting the focus to "indirect" mitigation. I gave you an example of direct damage mitigation. You only have Defy and Null Star in this system, with Null Star being a lot more restrictive. I have no idea why so many people including Brozime say Null Star is good while ignoring the mod investment, which happens to sync quite well with Nova but not many other frames.

21 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

lets also forget rolling guard exists and is standard on most tank builds or squishy frames.

That's a mod. Not an ability you can subsume. I am strictly speaking about how those abilities function on their own and without augments involved.

Edited by Jarriaga
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17 hours ago, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Holy crap... Defy is capped at 750 armor and Dispensary is 12 seconds

I just want to say that this is disgusting. Newsflash, some of the abilities you designed are 100% useless. Who will ever want to use Shuriken without it's augment? Anyone excited for Decoy? Terrify is probably the worst CC in the game.

I'd take 750 armor over those. But realistically I'll take none of that garbage. You just made things worse, by reducing the number of useful abilities.

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11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

By that logic you might as well say that Mend & Maim and Peacemaker are the best forms of damage mitigation because a dead enemy deals no damage. That is indeed a technically, objectively true statement that happens to be quite asinine at the same time. 

Avoiding mobs from a safe distance while killing with abilities bores the hell out of me. I'm likely the only Khora main in these boards who doesn't do Accumulated Whipclaw unless I'm explicitly farming rather than having a good time.

I don't do ultra-efficient, automated meta builds. If that's how you have fun then you do you. I play this game like Dynasty Warriors, which happens to be the way the game's director compared the melee system to.

It is, and I flat-out gave you an example while you failed to do so, shifting the focus to "indirect" mitigation. I gave you an example of direct damage mitigation. You only have Defy and Null Star in this system, with Null Star being a lot more restrictive. I have no idea why so many people including Brozime say Null Star is good while ignoring the mod investment, which happens to sync quite well with Nova but not many other frames.

That's a mod. Not an ability you can subsume. I am strictly speaking about how those abilities function on their own.

Cool thats you though, if you want to gimp yourself, thats a preference, but not a fact. It doesnt make you special or anything. There are better options out there, but you don't want to use them, and that's fine. But to if you're going to make a comparison to taking damage, you don't get to exclude other forms as well. You're stating performance metrics, and others do that job better, that are abilities.

 

You can play how you want, but saying X is good because i want to take worse options, because you doint believe in them is a horrible argument and holds no water. And to be clear idk why they nerfed it because it wasnt that good. But it doesnt bother me cause it wasn't going to get used much

Edited by Tonin4ABonin
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2 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

But to if you're going to make a comparison to taking damage, you don't get to exclude other forms as well.

Care to mention the other forms in that list? You can not tank damage if you're not taking damage to begin with. That's what tanking damage means.

Defy and Null Star are the only options in that list.

Edited by Jarriaga
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4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Care to mention the other forms in that list? You can not tank damage if you're not taking damage to begin with.

Deny and Null Star are the only options in that list.

CC. Stealth. 100% dr until you do something that changes that.

IF you want to put yourself in harms way, again cool, but that doesnt change things IF you want to argue objective facts, stay objective, not subjective preference,

Edited by Tonin4ABonin
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5 minutes ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

CC. Stealth. 100% dr until you do something that changes that.

Again: You can not tank damage if you're not taking damage to begin with. That's what tanking damage means.

If you can not even answer without shifting the goal post to something else then there's no point in keeping this argument. You obviously have your mind set, which is quite ironic coming from someone who said "think outside the box" while being unable to think outside their own box.

Edited by Jarriaga
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10 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Way more than a few.

Why wouldn't it?

Just like any good melee.

With 25% base and no access to weeping or status boosting augments like chromatic/adaptive? Cool story

After rework, it has 3.5 m. base range that doesn't scale with combo, 6.5m with primed reach, which is comparable with normal melees.

Stropha has ~15 meters of range on its shots btw. Outrange my ass.

 

So, what we have: you pay 5 energy/second and sacrifice a potential ability slot to get a mediocre weapon that can't even outperform good melees, when you can instead run a good melee that will perform better and won't have energy drain, and slap a melee-boosting ability like radial blind, warcry, maybe even just roar to buff you and the twin, which will push it ever further above iron staff. Iron staff is worthless as is and needs huge buffs to be a viable option.

OK, so you are clearly a Min/Max style player who likes to be as efficient as possible to maximize damage, and that is fair, and nothing you have said is technically wrong.

That said just because an ability doesn't exceed the damage of the best meta damage type in the game doesn't make it trash, for any player that doesn't have a good meta melee weapon for any reason they don't like how they look, aren't high enough MR, unlucky with RNG, etc. Wukong's staff is a very solid melee weapon.

As for the range that was my mistake I haven't played wukong for the last several months and was unaware of how the melee range changes had affected him, I was referring to his glory days when he was running around with a 30m pole and calling it melee.

For good status a drifting contact and 60-60 element status mod takes the pole to 60% status chance in 2 slots which is pretty good for it's attack speed.

I think Exalted Weapons should be allowed to use Blood Rush and Drifting Contact, especially now that they nerfed Blood rush, but even if they can't the ability is still very useful for players who aren't over a thousand hours into making their builds and are still fun and plenty effective for most of the trivial enemies that the player normally encounters.

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8 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Again: You can not tank damage if you're not taking damage to begin with. That's what tanking damage means.

If you can not even answer without shifting the goal post to something else then there's no point in keeping this argument. You obviously have your mind set, which is quite ironic coming from someone how said "think outside the box" while being unable to think outside their own box.

Could say the same about you no? You only want your subjective situation to apply, but the conversation is much bigger than your closed mind(if you had actually read any of it), maybe stop projecting and think a bit.  But again, you forcing yourself to "tank damage "when you don't need to is forcing a situation which isn't neccessary to fit your goal, because it's the only one that could possibly exist, ignoring the fact that survivability overall, which is what this entire conversation about wukongs defy being bad, is about. You should really learn to read a bit, and form a good argument. Defy isn't a great ability. It's that simple.

Edited by Tonin4ABonin
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22 minutes ago, Selpar said:

you are clearly a Min/Max style player

You don't need to be a min-maxer to understand that if a weapon occupies an ability slot and costs energy to use, but doesn't have any properties that would even remotely justify such hefty downsides, it is objectively a bad weapon and should not be used.

And thank god that any wukong player now can throw it in the trash where it belongs, and replace it with an actually useful ability. Not as good as an actual exalted rework, but still a good thing.

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12 hours ago, BahamutKaiser said:

So, whose using Decoy? I only use it with switch teleport to get into vaults, on Loki himself. 

I Like Decoy because it can draw fire away from my Warframe for a bit but I do also wish Switch Teleport was the ability getting slapped on other Frames.

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1 hour ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

CC. Stealth. 100% dr until you do something that changes that.

IF you want to put yourself in harms way, again cool, but that doesnt change things IF you want to argue objective facts, stay objective, not subjective preference,

Some times taking some damage is part of the plan and the key is making sure you can do so in a controlled manner without instant death. There is nothing subjective about asking which abilities can help with that. You are correct that Stealth or CC lock down are 100% effective damage reductions, but are forgetting that for many tanky frames getting intentionally shot is part of the play style to fuel Rage and keep access to all the abilities the frame has to offer, which is very important since when you lean into corrupted mods for more ability power some abilities start to cost a lot of energy.

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Care to mention the other forms in that list? You can not tank damage if you're not taking damage to begin with. That's what tanking damage means.

Defy and Null Star are the only options in that list.

Your options are in no particular order:

Elemental Ward (cold): +150% Armor + 3X damage reflection

Defy: Additive Armor but capped at +750

Null Star: 5%-90% damage reduction situational based on how well you can keep your count up, basically requires an augment for melee builds

Eclipse: Situational lighting dependent damage buff reduced to 150% unmodded and damage mitigation capped at 75%

Warcry: +50% Armor and +30% melee Attack speed

Your mileage will vary greatly depending on which frame you are using and your build but hopefully this helps you make an informed decision on what is best for your build.

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4 hours ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

As someone with mesa as thier profile picture i would imagine you understand how DR works when guardian exists. So uh yeah, if a frame needs armor, they have easy access to it without a poor ability, and put something much more valuable in that slot, but i take too much press 4 and spin with 90% dr has gotten to you(oh imagine that 90% dr wow, huge difference that makes imagine that). Don't cast shattershield on your mesa and go into high levels and show me how well you survive as mesa with just armor stacking and I'll change my mind(cause it won't happen). There are FAR BETTER forms of ehp once you already have some armor, and you know it.

I lost braincells reading this and will probably lose more responding to it but here we go:

1) if you know how damage reduction works then you ought to know how guardian works. More specifically, you should know its proc chance is 15 percent and cannot refresh while active. You have to be tanky enough to take a few hits or it won't help at all. Guardian isn't an end all be all. 

 

2) other frames besides mesa exist. 

 

3) attacking someone's argument based on their profile picture is dumb.

 

4) making assumptions about someone's playstyle based on their profile picture is also dumb. 

 

5) what frames i do or don't use or how i do or dont play the game is irrelevant. It doesnt change the fact these nerfs are silly. They're silly because they dont fit the intended goal of increasing build diversity and player choice. 

 

Out of all the helminth abilities a subset of those abilities are actually worth using. All they did was make that subset slightly smaller. And you being silly about the defy change...  why even? It wasnt that good to begin with. Its like you want to salt my fries for thinking the nerf is dumb but jokes on you i was never gonna use it anyway because its trash. I just don't understand why make it even worse.

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18 hours ago, PopGligor said:

People like you are the reason for the nerf. Those who think only 3 abilities are good, and everything else sucks. That's simply not the case, mate. There's so many good abilities in this list that open up interesting builds

pretty sure people like you are the reason for the nerf. one guy not wanting a nerf is not going to make DE nerf stuff, as opposed to you who wants it which would clearly be more reason for them to nerf. they should have buffed everything else if they were going to nerf at all. now the good abilities are worse and the bad abilities are still bad, and tbh ill still probably take roar over most other abilities aside from niche examples. nerfing accomplished literally nothing, 30% roar is still better than most abilities, that screams how bad everything else is. 

nerf mentality is a bandaid and only serves to point out glaring issues with the other abilities on the list

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57 minutes ago, Selpar said:

Some times taking some damage is part of the plan and the key is making sure you can do so in a controlled manner without instant death. There is nothing subjective about asking which abilities can help with that. You are correct that Stealth or CC lock down are 100% effective damage reductions, but are forgetting that for many tanky frames getting intentionally shot is part of the play style to fuel Rage and keep access to all the abilities the frame has to offer, which is very important since when you lean into corrupted mods for more ability power some abilities start to cost a lot of energy.

Your options are in no particular order:

Elemental Ward (cold): +150% Armor + 3X damage reflection

Defy: Additive Armor but capped at +750

Null Star: 5%-90% damage reduction situational based on how well you can keep your count up, basically requires an augment for melee builds

Eclipse: Situational lighting dependent damage buff reduced to 150% unmodded and damage mitigation capped at 75%

Warcry: +50% Armor and +30% melee Attack speed

Your mileage will vary greatly depending on which frame you are using and your build but hopefully this helps you make an informed decision on what is best for your build.

I'd recommend following the quote chain for context. 

His argument was that Defy is bad because just being invisible or cc'd enemies is a "better form of damage reduction". That's an asinine argument. 

I am aware of Warcry and cold Elemental Ward.  Those scale off base armor. That means that a frame with 175 armor like Mirage Prime would only go to 438 total armor with standard non-nerfed Warcry and 963 with Elemental Ward at 300% power strength vs regular Defy, which is a flat armor boost to 1675 on her, so WC and EW were never an option for my example frame (Mirage). I wanted normal un-nerfed Defy because Eclipse is not reliable as a defensive ability; even a single step forward can change the buff from dark to light, and even then the UI shows the maximum potential buff rather than the actual buff. 

Edited by Jarriaga
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1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

I'd recommend following the quote chain for context. 

His argument was that Defy is bad because just being invisible or cc'd enemies is a "better form of damage reduction". That's an asinine argument. 

I am aware of Warcry and cold Elemental Ward.  Those scale off base armor. That means that a frame with 175 armor like Mirage Prime would only go to 438 total armor with standard non-nerfed Warcry and 963 with Elemental Ward at 300% power strength vs regular Defy, which is a flat armor boost to 1675 on her, so WC and EW were never an option for my example frame (Mirage). I wanted normal un-nerfed Defy because Eclipse is not reliable as a defensive ability; even a single step forward can change the buff from dark to light, and even then the UI shows the maximum potential buff rather than the actual buff. 

I've read the whole thread, I just choose to believe that the other user was thinking solely about damage reduction as a survival method and while it is true that nothing lets you survive quite like a large helping of skill that wasn't really what you were asking about, and wasn't a particularly helpful answer.

In your case the nerf is unfortunate because to be honest for a Mirage Defy is probably still going to be your best bet even after the nerf. It is gonna give you more armor than any of the others unless you mod heavily into armor and power strength which probably isn't worth the slots though Elemental Ward may win out on an umbra build, without the nerf Defy would have been hands down the best option.

Eclipse and Null Star are very situational which is a bit of a deal breaker for abilities meant to keep you alive. That said the other options do work very well for other Warframes I'll probably slap a Elemental Ward on my Umbra build Valkyr just for fun see if I can stack Warcry and Elemental Ward Cold to negate all the damage.

It probably won't work but even if I have to choose between the 2 elemental ward is temping with a base armor of 700... That would be like 3090.5 using just the umbra mods if I calculated it correctly. I want to make my frame tanky enough to never need to use the panic button, but the NULLIFIERS on Mot have no respect after 60 minutes.

1 hour ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

so I'm guessing Larva range is 6m then....bruh....

Actually if the Wiki is to be believed, it is 8m unmodded.

Edited by Selpar
removing pronoun confusion
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On 2020-08-25 at 8:06 PM, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Ah yes butchering usefull abilities so that everything sucks is totally a good thing instead of buffing the other abilities that suck. Now instead of more choice, there's even less. 

THIS

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On 2020-08-25 at 8:06 PM, (PS4)PoKerZ2017 said:

Ah yes butchering usefull abilities so that everything sucks is totally a good thing instead of buffing the other abilities that suck. Now instead of more choice, there's even less. 

agree 1000%

just make the trash abilities better.

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On 2020-08-26 at 2:00 AM, PopGligor said:

That's exactly why they nerfed them. Because the entire community would flock to 3 skills, when you have so many others that open up interesting builds, and that's the point of the system. If they released it in a state where 3 abilities dominate, it would be dead on arrival. And it's not even that these abilities are so objectively good, cuz they're not. It's that the community immediately got tunnel-visioned into them. The nerfs are good.
 

Yep. Truly the nerfs made me want to use decoy now. 🙂

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2020-08-26 at 4:19 PM, Ikyr0 said:

It's the BASE value. Without mods.

Late, but guess what, it is a 750 flat armor unaffected by power mods just as i thought, making it trash, and your "Pretty good actually" quite funny.

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