The Token System Is Okay

[Reverse830]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Lillekri said:

The negative people seem to not grasp that you can basically just do Mother tokens quick and easy, and ignore the rest.

Until you need to actually rank up.  That requires tokens from the others.  Mother works for standing just fine, but rank ups require additional costs.

2 hours ago, HerpDerpy said:

They really need to award tokens just for doing the tasks.

I want to get a couple tokens every time I catch a fish, and every time I capture an animal. The way it works right now is you have to choose if you want tokens to progress and gain standing, or if you want the materials and tags. In the other open worlds you get standing just for fishing and capturing animals, and then you also get the tags and fish on top of that.

Fishing has always been a choice between resources and standing, but suddenly making conservation that way sucks.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

24 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

Lesson learned.  Never be hyped for the first day. Especially if its an open world in wf yup , learned the hard way.

If you have no expectations, you won't be disappointed. 

[oohshiny]

3 hours ago, ebrl said:

standing-only toroid that has no associated recipes

Larkspur research and construction both require Crisma Toroids.

[Deadoon]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Cram Duahcim said:

I must be in the minority as I haven't run into this issue at all. I'm getting all the components required with ease. 

Son tokens. Every other token could be obtained with reasonable degrees of grind. First tier son tokens are two layers of rng that are unable to be manipulated. First is that you need random animals to spawn, since they spawn normally that is no issue but you still will need a lot of them. The second is that from the capture tags you need specific combinations of them and sufficient quantity to get individual tokens. 

Compare that to daughter tokens, you fish and when conditions are right you can get the fish you are looking for, and then you cut those fish up to get the materials you want(if that worked right now on pc). An alternative to cutting up fish is to do vaults getting those same materials for the tokens.

Or father tokens which are easy to obtain as the materials come from random breakables that are everywhere. And also come in vaults.

Or otak tokens which come from mining and those resources can also be obtained in vaults. 

Or mother tokens which literally come from bounties in absurd quantities.

Every token has a reasonable way to be obtained except son tokens from the very begining.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Yea we made some assumptions at first but it's not bad at all. I think it's an awesome update.

[Lutesque]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And zeroth impressions are what most have been complaining about. 

What ?

[Lutesque]

11 minutes ago, oohshiny said:

Larkspur research and construction both require Crisma Toroids.

Don't all of Hildryn's Component Blueprints require Lazulite Toroids ? 2 for each piece for a Total of 6....

That's 6 Diluted Thermia.... Which means sealing 24 Fractures 😮 !!!

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

9 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

What ?

Impressions created before the first encounter. Zeroth impressions. Many haven't even bothered to run the bounties and see what happens. 

I ran some bounties. Turns out that the loot collected earns tokens for everything but conservation so far as I can tell. The only fish I caught were in the quest, but Daughter was able to find stuff in my inventory that she wanted. I did mine a mineral node on first entry, but not enough to account for all the tokens Loid gave me. Father's stuff I have no idea when I picked it up, but he seemed right jolly to have it, and old Gran-gran she's been merrily turning all of them into standing for me, and seems to want to trade some for Granny tokens. 

So without mining, I have mining tokens, without fishing, I have fishing tokens, and without... whatever Father wants, I have Father tokens. 

Anyone complaining about being "forced" to do those things, has not bothered to try to "just play the game". They're operating on Zeroth impressions, and raging about a situation that exists only in their own heads. They didn't even get to first impressions. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

39 minutes ago, Reverse830 said:

Until you need to actually rank up.  That requires tokens from the others.  Mother works for standing just fine, but rank ups require additional costs.

Have you bothered to try? You collect random loot that trades for everything but Son Tokens. 

I don't think that Son Tokens/tags show up before the move to third rank. 

[Surbusken]

Not really.

You are coming from a perspective of you being okay with the planet-grind. So you try to justify it in hours, rewards, number of events. Because you personally have no problem putting whatever it takes into it.

What people are telling you is, they don't like the gameplay.

Some people don't enjoy it, at all, on any level or hate it so much they are asking to be free of it, do something else. Anything else, lol.

Obviously the fish/mining grind is of upmost importance to them since they ram it down your throat at gunpoint - so I don't think anyone is expecting them to come to the table.

All we can do is let the guy printing fake player metrics as a rationalization for planet grinding, know that some of us hate it to the max. It's unworthy, undignified and simply not fun.

And I am personally not going to touch planet-grinding with a ten foot pole no matter what content, item or gear is held hostage.

I play video games to have fun, planet grinding is not that.

1+1=2

[Lutesque]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Impressions created before the first encounter. Zeroth impressions. Many haven't even bothered to run the bounties and see what happens. 

Then ignore them....

Focus on the ones that did.

33 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Anyone complaining about being "forced" to do those things, has not bothered to try to "just play the game". They're operating on Zeroth impressions, and raging about a situation that exists only in their own heads. They didn't even get to first impressions. 

What about the Infamous Son Tokens ?

[Deadoon]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Have you bothered to try? You collect random loot that trades for everything but Son Tokens. 

I don't think that Son Tokens/tags show up before the move to third rank. 

They were for the first rank originally, there was a patch that changed it.

[JackHargreav]

It's pretty bad actually.

In warframe I want to spend my time mostly killing not anything else.

Both the other open worlds needed some material from certian fishies and some gems but those were really easy to get unlike the hunting tokens.

Worst of all the Son medals require rare animals too which are extra annoying to hunt.

[AltheusVI]

8 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

It's pretty bad actually.

In warframe I want to spend my time mostly killing not anything else.

Both the other open worlds needed some material from certian fishies and some gems but those were really easy to get unlike the hunting tokens.

Worst of all the Son medals require rare animals too which are extra annoying to hunt.

I intend to bypass as much of the token system as I can, which looks quite do-able. I can live without the strange animal companions and necralisks.

The thing I actually want from this update is the helminth segment, so, 3 ranks worth of bounties and jumping through the necessary hoops to get the rank ups. Which may involve tokens, of which I will gather as few as I can get away with.

I absolutely will not engage with the conservation system beyond randomly tranqing animals, mining will be done grudgingly and fishing will be over as quickly as I can make it.......why does this sound like me getting some jobs I don't want to do out of the way so I can get to the bit that I do want......I don't want games to feel like that.

This update is like a meal where you have to eat your greens to get to the dessert, however, warframe works best when it is like a buffet and you can take as much or as little of each content as you like, putting the helminth segment behind rank 3 rather than directly giving or selling it to me means I will do what I have to to get there and then stop. Or I could just not bother and live without doing it.

 

 

[TARINunit9]

In theory, the token system is only as bad as you make it...

...the problem is the best possible outcome, grinding bounties on Deimos, is no better than grinding bounties on Plains/Vallis. The other methods of gaining rep in Deimos are worse than the same systems on Plains/Vallis

Let's take a look at mining, fishing, and conservation. On Vallis, Conservation makes you loaded. The lowest conservation, Virminks, are worth 600 to 1,000 rep, only slightly less than a low-tier bounty. Stovers and Kubrodons net you up to 8,000, far more than bounties. You can max out your standing for the day with just 20 minutes of conservation depending on your mastery and your Fortuna rank

Gems are smaller numbers at first, but if you're not hording them for your own builds they can rack up rep fast. If you're good at mining you are averaging between 100 to 300 rep per gem vein. Fish can add up quickly too, averaging 35 rep per common fish, 125 rep per uncommon fish, and 700 rep per rare fish (and if you have Glappid bait, you're looking at over 1,000 per fish!)

Compare that to Deimos. You need a bare minimum of 3 conservations for one token, and the packs of tokens can ask for as many as 9 conservations. You need a bunch of fish parts to get as much as 2 tokens. Mining is the least painful if you find a good cave with lots of veins, I walked away with about 8 tokens worth in 20 minutes of mining. How much rep do these tokens get you? 100 rep, the same as the bounty tokens. Except the non-bounty tokens take far longer than bounties. Compared to fishing/mining/conservation on Plains/Vallis, they are orders of magnitude less effective, vastly slower

[attilathehunnybun]

I really hope they don't change the way you get tokens instead of standing for bounties, just because everyone is complaining about everything token-related right now. It's so much more motivating to do bounties knowing I'll always get the standing reward. Especially knowing I can do bounties to get standing/tokens whenever I feel like it, instead of having the daily standing be like a chore.  

[60framespersecond]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

In theory, the token system is only as bad as you make it...

...the problem is the best possible outcome, grinding bounties on Deimos, is no better than grinding bounties on Plains/Vallis. The other methods of gaining rep in Deimos are worse than the same systems on Plains/Vallis

Let's take a look at mining, fishing, and conservation. On Vallis, Conservation makes you loaded. The lowest conservation, Virminks, are worth 600 to 1,000 rep, only slightly less than a low-tier bounty. Stovers and Kubrodons net you up to 8,000, far more than bounties. You can max out your standing for the day with just 20 minutes of conservation depending on your mastery and your Fortuna rank

Gems are smaller numbers at first, but if you're not hording them for your own builds they can rack up rep fast. If you're good at mining you are averaging between 100 to 300 rep per gem vein. Fish can add up quickly too, averaging 35 rep per common fish, 125 rep per uncommon fish, and 700 rep per rare fish (and if you have Glappid bait, you're looking at over 1,000 per fish!)

Compare that to Deimos. You need a bare minimum of 3 conservations for one token, and the packs of tokens can ask for as many as 9 conservations. You need a bunch of fish parts to get as much as 2 tokens. Mining is the least painful if you find a good cave with lots of veins, I walked away with about 8 tokens worth in 20 minutes of mining. How much rep do these tokens get you? 100 rep, the same as the bounty tokens. Except the non-bounty tokens take far longer than bounties. Compared to fishing/mining/conservation on Plains/Vallis, they are orders of magnitude less effective, vastly slower

Very much this. Non-bounty rep is lackluster. In case of the conservation, there is also little incentive to do perfect captures from what I can tell. You gain no additional rep (because there is no rep gained at all) and you still only get one token, regardless of capture quality. The situation might improve, if the bad capture gave you one and the better captures increase the amount by one for each capture level. So bad is one, good is two and perfect yields three tokens.

[Kefirno]

9 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Calling it. Within two weeks, the uproar about it will be a blip

Sure, because it's faster to find the optimal route and power-grind your way through than waiting for fix that may never come. It's not like Warframe is getting a steady influx of new players to complain about confusing gated progression.

[Kaotis]

hace 9 horas, BornWithTeeth dijo:

It's fine. It'll slow down progress at first due to the slight bottlenecking, but within two weeks people will have it figured out. Also, the fact that all standing points are issued in the form of stored tokens means that you'll never waste standing from doing Bounties.

The issue with the Son's tokens being difficult to acquire has basically already been sorted with the first hotfix, in that you don't need them right away, and by the time you need them, you'll be able to get them.

 

Calling it. Within two weeks, the uproar about it will be a blip, because people logged in and felt like they hit a wall. It was actually just a narrow gate that's designed to slow you down and prevent people from destroying all the update's content in the first week.

You have to soft lock players when you actualy don't have much content out . The mech is a clear example ... they put out just one and "more will come" ... it's not that hard to reajust the same model into 3 variants : tanky , agile , sneaky version specializing in buffing tankynes, runing around and long range artillery . What did they do ? drop one we will do more later...  

It can literaly be a skin for all i care and stil would have been ready by launch ... Don't forget they put this deadline ... it could have been the 1s of september for example ... or november. Yet they launch somthing fast out of the game and give the comunity a bad initial taste.

Mag's revisit why did it have to launch with this update!? It was too much to launch a mid update to revisit an old frame or what?... <--- the revisit was shown a few YEARS ago along with daviri.... the tech to make what she has now was already in the game probably after they released the 4th archwing

Enough rating for now... back on topic:

The system needs to default to use only mother tokens for progresion/standing and need the tokens of rule 33 and 34 only for some services or gear. In a few weeks they will drasticaly lower the nr of tokens once the statistical data for retention of new players hits low numbers. 

With all that said , i inted to play this zone because it's somthing actualy new and gives a reason to pop in and do some things rather than enter ESO and try my luc at getign parts i need in the loot lotery.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Then ignore them....

Focus on the ones that did.

Many of the ones that did try the content seem to be saying that they also picked up tokens without too much difficulty. It's kind of hard to not notice the million and one threads where people are behaving like spoiled children asked to try a new food. They're screaming about how much they're going to hate it, creating a false impression that what they're being asked to try is anywhere near as terrible as they are claiming. 

6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

What about the Infamous Son Tokens ?

 

Those are the only ones that I haven't just randomly collected during the bounties. I spent my time running bounties for Mother tokens, and noticed that the other family members were handing out tokens for the random cruft I'd picked up. That said there are reports of random tokens appearing in caves (similar to OV) and that Son gives credit for conservation even if the target is dead/downed (as the targets wander around the map and some pick fights with the infested) and you don't need to do the whole tracking-pheromone-lure thing to pick up a tag (similar to PoE). 

[SweetAnubis]

its like people only click the first option and ignore the second in any menu.... u dont have to do their bounties to get their tokens... they also have material exchanges similar to the debt bonds buying system on fortuna....

[killerJoke66]

i just want to have helminth ... why lock it behind 20x+ times hunting ... 

[killerJoke66]

i already tried to find avichaea(or whatever the bird name was) they simply dont spawn ihave the lure and everything after 3 attempts on finding on the mating call or whatever i raced the whole map more than 3 times , ive come across some animals but none of the avic blabla that matters for rank 3 entrati .

[Borg1611]

Progress was already hard time-gated by our daily standing limit. The idea that we needed awful things like Son's token acquisition on top of it just to slow us down is silly at best. 

You don't need a bizarre RNG turn in system with highly questionable costs on top of a daily limit. You also certainly don't need to force people to do... conservation of all things. I expect that will be changed shortly though given it has the most complaints out of anything in the update. 

I do like the positives of the token system in that you can stockpile them without losing out on rep once you're eventually capped. They just need to ditch the RNG + extra time-gate debt bond turn in aspect to acquiring them. I have no idea why anyone would think that's an acceptable way to do a currency system. Trying to get people to check in with the vendor frequently to see if they have a turn in they can afford with what they've farmed is a really odd thing to want your players to do. 

[Lutesque]

10 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Many of the ones that did try the content seem to be saying that they also picked up tokens without too much difficulty. It's kind of hard to not notice the million and one threads where people are behaving like spoiled children asked to try a new food. They're screaming about how much they're going to hate it, creating a false impression that what they're being asked to try is anywhere near as terrible as they are claiming. 

I never saw any of those.... 😮

10 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Those are the only ones that I haven't just randomly collected during the bounties. I spent my time running bounties for Mother tokens, and noticed that the other family members were handing out tokens for the random cruft I'd picked up. That said there are reports of random tokens appearing in caves (similar to OV) and that Son gives credit for conservation even if the target is dead/downed (as the targets wander around the map and some pick fights with the infested) and you don't need to do the whole tracking-pheromone-lure thing to pick up a tag (similar to PoE). 

This is what I've been seeing the most of....

Right now it seems like DE's solution was to simply move the Rank Up requires to a later rank.... We'll see if this actually fixes the issue or if it's just delaying the inevitable. 

7 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Progress was already hard time-gated by our daily standing limit. The idea that we needed awful things like Son's token acquisition on top of it just to slow us down is silly at best. 

You don't need a bizarre RNG turn in system with highly questionable costs on top of a daily limit. You also certainly don't need to force people to do... conservation of all things. I expect that will be changed shortly though given it has the most complaints out of anything in the update. 

I do like the positives of the token system in that you can stockpile them without losing out on rep once you're eventually capped. They just need to ditch the RNG + extra time-gate debt bond turn in aspect to acquiring them. I have no idea why anyone would think that's an acceptable way to do a currency system. Trying to get people to check in with the vendor frequently to see if they have a turn in they can afford with what they've farmed is a really odd thing to want your players to do. 

DE likes RNG way too much.... It's their go to Strategy for locking players out of progress....