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Deimos enemy health seems too large


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26 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

EXCEPT THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT LEVELS ARE.

As a mechanics levels are called such because they are power levels, the measure of power difference of point 1 to point 2 to point 3, etc, its why a level 100 enemy should in theory be twice as hard as a level 50, and in good games they are. Hell even in loose systems more akin to warframe it all scales off level, even damn CR (aka challenge rating aka power level) of a enemies in D&D which is infamously terrible as it ignores some more important factors generally fits the scales (A CR 20 in 5e should have around 300 hp and hit for total around 65-90 damage a round while CR 10 have 150 and 28-35).

That's just spreadsheet wisdom. Something x2 = twice the value. But this completely ommits gameplay and mechanics.

And CR's in DnD are a completely bogus comparison. Everyone with a bit of experience knows that those are only indicative of power and not actually how strong the enemy is going to be as this depends on where this enemy is and what abilities they have.

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3 минуты назад, blackflashcannon сказал:

i can give you my build if you truely want that, but as for proof, i will need a bit

Don't get me wrong, I didn't intend to insult you and you don't owe me a thing. However some pictures could be nice to demostrate your point. 

14 минут назад, Andele3025 сказал:

EXCEPT THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT LEVELS ARE.

This is just your perspective, you're strongly biased towards it and don't want to imagine anything else exists outside of your perspective. Just as your bias towards melee stances. Having different opinion isnt bad. 

Imagine: lancer vs. kuva lancer. Former has puny grakata tickling you and barely posing a threat, latter has grinlok which seriously hurts and those slash procs are no joke.

Moreover, high level void missions have higher damage modifier.

Moreover, steel path enemies are also not following their regular "challenge rating", having beefed up EHP.

So yeah, devs ARE pretty consistent with this stupid stuff. They're just doing bad at notifying players about it or reasoning behind it (which is also consistent on their side).

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4 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

That's just spreadsheet wisdom. Something x2 = twice the value. But this completely ommits gameplay and mechanics.

No its not, its objective data based on good game design. A higher level version of the same enemy is that enemy with beefed up stats. And all enemies in the same level range of the same type have around the same stats. That you gained a tool in your game loop that makes them even more trivial isnt relevant to their potential threat level nor their numbers as it (in a well designed game) effects ever such case equally. Same for rares, mini bosses and actual bosses (where it are obviously pumped up enemies, notable breaks in game loop with more mechanics and enemies independent of level progression but unique encounters based on progression to test your use of recently acquired skills). Its why Warframe is infamous for S#&$ "bosses". Most dont even qualify for a mini boss.

4 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

And CR's in DnD are a completely bogus comparison. Everyone with a bit of experience knows that those are only indicative of power and not actually how strong the enemy is going to be as this depends on where this enemy is and what abilities they have.

If you're talking AD&D, true-ish, decent argument for base 3e, 3.5 and on tho no. There are exceptions which break CR due to requiring more specialized counters (sentients and void damage or diverse types or IDs and prot G&E/SU shutdown/crit immunity buff spells) or being intentionally overstatted due to a weakness designed to exploit, but it follows the correct ballpark at least which is why i said loose system. And its not like Warframe has AOO, touch attacks or a action economy to worry about.

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Here we go, it's Orb Vallis whinging all over again.

 

PLEASE, curb your complaining about the difficulty. Rise up to the difficulty by improving your play and builds, don't whine for DE to lower the difficulty down to you.

A lot of us really want some content that pushes back against the power creeped frames/weapons. I LOVE the scaling and design of new infested enemies, especially on Steel Path.

 

Please just stop with the whining, and play better/smarter.

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7 hours ago, blackflashcannon said:

Ive been playing deimos for a few hours now and I have noticed that the health of infested targets seems rediculously durable and large even comparing to orb vallis. not just that, some enemies appear to be immune outright to viral damage and procs. did health get massively increased for the enemies here? it feels like it is 5 times the normal health bars and armor

Thats what I thought at first when I fought these things, but it turns out they have a weak point. If you aim your weapon at their mouths you'll deal a lot of damage.

If you shoot any where else you'll just tickle it. lol

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Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

This is just your perspective

No its not, thats the definition of a level (in terms of progression/experience, not in terms of map or zone) when it comes to video games. Its why level SCALING is a thing in the first place.

Just now, Miyabi-sama said:

Imagine: lancer vs. kuva lancer. Former has puny grakata tickling you and barely posing a threat, latter has grinlok which seriously hurts and those slash procs are no joke.

Moreover, high level void missions have higher damage modifier.

Moreover, steel path enemies are also not following their regular "challenge rating", having beefed up EHP.

So yeah, devs ARE pretty consistent with this stupid stuff. They're just doing bad at notifying players about it or reasoning behind it (which is also consistent on their side).

(Elite) Lancer vs Kuva (elite) lancer are different enemies with different looks and different name which is sufficient to explain a slightly different weapon (which still have similar enough dps once you ramp up levels to make up for accuracy difference). They still have same HP and armor stats.
A tileset/map modifier doesnt change that the enemies are and hit for the same values in regular conditions.

OV (for hp, shields and in very few cases damage) enemies and the few weird outliers in Deimos (which i swear is more bugs like OV turrets with AW weapons for drones and forgetting to put a decimal on some attacks) meanwhile actually outright lie about their level.

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29 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No its not, its objective data based on good game design. A higher level version of the same enemy is that enemy with beefed up stats. And all enemies in the same level range of the same type have around the same stats. That you gained a tool in your game loop that makes them even more trivial isnt relevant to their potential threat level nor their numbers as it (in a well designed game) effects ever such case equally. Same for rares, mini bosses and actual bosses (where it are obviously pumped up enemies, notable breaks in game loop with more mechanics and enemies independent of level progression but unique encounters based on progression to test your use of recently acquired skills). Its why Warframe is infamous for S#&$ "bosses". Most dont even qualify for a mini boss.

Yea but this is exactly the reason that certain enemies one shot you without counterplay. Let's say you can absorb 100 damage and there's a strong but squishy enemy that can deal 50 damage to you. This enemy may not pose a challenge if he can only occasionally hit you. Your counterplay is in the buffer of 50hp. If we double the level of this enemy and increase his stats x2 then he will deal 100 damage to you and there is 0 counterplay.

And to use your dnd reference a level 20 character is not 2x stronger than a level 10 character. In fact this level 10 character may be completely ineffective and not be able to deal any damage to any enemy if his ab is simply not cutting it and the enemy is crit immune. There's just much more going into this. and then there's equipment. A level 1 character with high dex, and magical armor and shield can win vs a lvl 6 character as well.

I'm getting the feeling we're missing eachother's point.

Edited by RazerXPrime
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44 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

This is just your perspective

It is my perspective, and the perspective of enough others that I feel comfortable saying that if your perspective is different then your perspective is straight up wrong.

 

46 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Imagine: lancer vs. kuva lancer. Former has puny grakata tickling you and barely posing a threat, latter has grinlok which seriously hurts and those slash procs are no joke.

Except that the Kuva Lancer is still at a comparable power with the regular Lancer at the same level. Neither of them is a priority target and they're both on an even playing field in terms of EHP. Contrast the dumb centipedes and extra-centipedes, which spawn like Troopers and then act like Bombards, but with thrice the displayed level for their stats.

 

48 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Moreover, high level void missions have higher damage modifier.

Moreover, steel path enemies are also not following their regular "challenge rating", having beefed up EHP.

I'll grant you the T4 Void hidden modifier, though that is something which should be looked at as well. Steel Path, on the other hand, informs you well in advance that the enemies will not only start at a higher level than anything else outside of endless missions, but also have increased HP, Armor, and Shields. Deimos gives no indication that its enemies are all secretly Bombard-Napalm-Noxes.

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10 минут назад, Andele3025 сказал:

No its not, thats the definition of a level (in terms of progression/experience, not in terms of map or zone) when it comes to video games. Its why level SCALING is a thing in the first place.

Level is a level. A loose term which game developers have at their disposal. Kinda The Elder Scrolls series' enemies don't have any visible levels at all.

As for scaling, DE using the scaling formulae, which includes multiplication based on enemy levels. And there are multiple cases with... 

15 минут назад, Andele3025 сказал:

different enemies with different looks and different name which is sufficient to explain a slightly different weapon...

... and their base stats, just like RJ grineer are tougher than regular grineer. Same as deimos infested are tougher than regular.

Again, there is nothing new, and you might not like it, and I perfectly understand frustration. But the only f-up DE made is they forgot to let people know about pumped up stats and resistances.

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12 минут назад, Iamabearlulz сказал:

Deimos gives no indication that its enemies are all secretly Bombard-Napalm-Noxes.

I wonder if this thread existed in the first place if DE just put a warning sign: "Careful! Stupidly strong enemies!" on starchart.

 

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Just now, RazerXPrime said:

And to use your dnd reference a level 20 character is not 2x stronger than a level 10 character.

Actually, they kinda are once you remove the factor of utility magic. D8 for 3rd ed and D10 for 5th ed per 2 levels is the expected increase of damage of a dedicated rotation to it. Especially in 5e with most higher level spells having their extra scaling off caster level and metamagic options removed. A fighter goes from 2 attacks to 4, a paladin gets 5th level slots and a extra D8 damage to their 2 attacks from said 2 attacks and 3rd level slots, etc. Especially when one also adds the real bounded accuracy as per MM+ stats and DMG table instead of what the designers state in their offhand comments. And even the hp is generally linear. Do agree for 3.5 tho without heavy splatbook optimization.

Just now, RazerXPrime said:

In fact this level 10 character may be completely ineffective and not be able to deal any damage to any enemy if his ab is simply not cutting it and the enemy is crit immune. There's just much more going into this. and then there's equipment. A level 1 character with high dex, and magical armor and shield can win vs a lvl 6 character as well.

That would be a issue of fully kidded n modded Rhino Prime vs non-reactor broken mod Nyx. Not related to enemies cheating tho aka presenting fully stated and worded Tenebrous or Darklord form Sot as a "CR1 challenge" the party is expected to kill for the D&D comparison

Just now, RazerXPrime said:

Yea but this is exactly the reason that certain enemies one shot you without counterplay. Let's say you can absorb 100 damage and there's a strong but squishy enemy that can deal 50 damage to you. This enemy may not pose a challenge if he can only occasionally hit you. Your counterplay is in the buffer of 50hp. If we double the level of this enemy and increase his stats x2 then he will deal 100 damage to you and there is 0 counterplay.

Thats under the assumption that you dont mod and have no access to % DR nor recovery. Which is a advantage players have and enemies should sparingly. Its also why as long as players dont have level scaling, enemy damage should also have a proportional falloff (based on modded EHP). To keep the D&D comparison going, players getting to "cheat" the mechanics if they do x/y/z right is the distinctive advantage being a player going 1 (or 4 or 7 or whatever) vs a entire world of monsters requires. Its why said enemies get to have scaling even above the options players got (up to a reasonable point) and why a enemy having full immunity to status is S#&$, but if they merely had -100% base duration modifier to that status but you could apply a mod that increases your status duration to 140% or 200% isnt S#&$ (well its S#&$ if you didnt prepare for it, but you can actually counter it within playstyle/choices made).

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Level is a level. A loose term which game developers have at their disposal. Kinda The Elder Scrolls series' enemies don't have any visible levels at all.

Except they do still use levels and even show them (tho not in meta UI) because spawns and enemy levels are player level locked (and per enemy capped). Its why in morrowind slaver encounter at 1 is a dremora at 60, why oblivion hobos magically acquire daedric armor through malicious deals to annoy you at higher levels, etc.

10 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

As for scaling, DE using the scaling formulae, which includes multiplication based on enemy levels. And there are multiple cases with.

You mean the way how DE scales everything except armor LINEARLY level by level?

10 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

... and their base stats, just like RJ grineer are tougher than regular grineer. Same as deimos infested are tougher than regular.

No. They are just lying about their level. A elite lancer is tougher than a regular lancer. A space lancer has no place being worth 1.4 bombards at the level of said other lancers.
The Elite and regular lancers already set the standard and the heavy units set around where the ceiling is. Taking a mook fodder unit above the stat range of that ceiling and then lying that its of that level is merely lying.


And as said before its not even that deimos infested are tougher (actually they are mostly fine raw hp armor wise, they have other implementation issues), its that some specific enemies LIE about what level they are/should be is bad design.

10 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Again, there is nothing new, and you might not like it, and I perfectly understand frustration. But the only f-up DE made is they forgot to let people know about pumped up stats and resistances.

No. The fup is that DE released AGAIN enemies that lie about what level they are, but treat them as if they were that level along enemies that actually are of that level (like they did in OV, mostly in Gas City Remaster/Juno enemies and to a much smaller but as annoying as in OV case for Deimos).

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5 hours ago, blackflashcannon said:

have you tried the 40 to 60?

I have done the 100 bounty. I melted mobs like butter. 2-3 mobs take a bit more damage than usual. But like 4-5 secs instead of 1-2 secs? 

If you can do highest Fortuna bounty easily, this should be cake walk for you. After all, the mobs in Demios can barely deal damage (beside the bugged bleed and toxin procs).

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Solution might be use something else that doesn't have innate radiation damage... That's OP's only complain, is regarding his damage with the Kuva Nukor, I wonder if he tried any other weapons.

On the meantime, I'll probably open up a thread with a suggestion for DE to move HoD to someplace else on the Star Chart and increase its described level.

Edited by ZarTham
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Ok so just tried the level 40-60 bounties. Most enemies still die in 1 hit. There's some big ass caterpillars that take a few shots and some armored bipedals that also take a few more shots. I also sasw same large floaty thing that took very little damage from me, but it didn't do anything so I left it be. But I'm not sure if I'm modded correctly to fight them. The only issue is that some enemies kill me in 1 hit lol. Not sure, but I think it's the blue smaller caterpillars. I was using wisp with all her buffs at 1300-ish hp i believe, but that hp was gone in 1 hit.

Most important issue was that I was not paying attention and died too often and lost 10 animal captures an a bunch of gathered resources and fishes I got. Ah well...

Edited by RazerXPrime
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6 hours ago, blackflashcannon said:

Ive been playing deimos for a few hours now and I have noticed that the health of infested targets seems rediculously durable and large even comparing to orb vallis. not just that, some enemies appear to be immune outright to viral damage and procs. did health get massively increased for the enemies here? it feels like it is 5 times the normal health bars and armor

You are kidding right? Everything dies the same as infested have always. And all those players trying to mod for Gas... you never needed to mod for Gas, Viral/Slash is still meta.

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7 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

The only issue is that some enemies kill me in 1 hit lol. Not sure, but I think it's the blue smaller caterpillars. I was using wisp with all her buffs at 1300-ish hp i believe, but that hp was gone in 1 hit.

Why i mentioned it feels more like (other than viral immunity) the part of deimos enemies that lie might be a accidental slip on numbers table. The damage that massively overkills are the star larva discs of the big C&B torture device like tower enemies (hitting for some 14-20 times the damage of the other attacks around), the tiny red shots from the flying drones that seem to have something either akin to rng if it deals 70 or 7000 damage (or perhaps stupid high crit mod for headshots) and some enemies using their anti-archwing attacks which reliably deal 900+ damage despite the player not being in AW mode.

Doesnt change that said tower enemy can go 1:1 against bombards that are slightly over twice its level and barely beat them due to it, but at least it feels like a bug instead of intentional cancer like OV, Railjack and Juno enemies are/were.

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I've been using my terrible non-meta I'mtoolazytobuildforeachfaction stuff that's got a mix of damage types on them with my frameIalwayslazilyplay and I wasn't having any real issues unless I got overly mobbed or stopped in place too long to type when I was in a squad.

I'm sure if one was actually paying attention to what the enemies were weak or resistant to they'd be fine.

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2 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Why i mentioned it feels more like (other than viral immunity) the part of deimos enemies that lie might be a accidental slip on numbers table. The damage that massively overkills are the star larva discs of the big C&B torture device like tower enemies (hitting for some 14-20 times the damage of the other attacks around), the tiny red shots from the flying drones that seem to have something either akin to rng if it deals 70 or 7000 damage (or perhaps stupid high crit mod for headshots) and some enemies using their anti-archwing attacks which reliably deal 900+ damage despite the player not being in AW mode.

Doesnt change that said tower enemy can go 1:1 against bombards that are slightly over twice its level and barely beat them due to it, but at least it feels like a bug instead of intentional cancer like OV, Railjack and Juno enemies are/were.

For the record I was using my default Fulmin viral/mumu build. Shred stuff like it is paper.

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