Do NOT use this Necramech mechanic EVER again

[devildevil21]

3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I just think the % reflection should be manageable or tweaked.

granted, 1% when we can do a million damage is kinda gonna be difficult to scale right.

 

i DO NOT WANT REMOVED. i want it tweaked to be manageable. I also dislike the fact that i have to wait half a minute cause the mech is completely invulnerable.

I just want DE to choose between invulnerability and damage reflect. NOT both. Also because the animation is glitchy atm, so they'll appear as if they have the shield active but it has already deactivated. only way to know is to hit them, but if it is still active, well.... BAM, self-damage and possible one-shot

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Do they have reflect? I haven't noticed yet, is it only when they have that shield up? 

 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Notice how he's asking for a complete removal instead of a better tell or indicator......

All these enemies are gonna be nerfed due to "misinformed" players. 

[bibmobello]

4 hours ago, CheaseDragon said:

Its not really hard, just a lot of running in a circle. 

It'd be nice if there was a way to distract him or something.

I haven't played this update and probably i will not but i think noise arrow probably has a reason to exist now lol..

[Lichformed]

15 minutes ago, Cloud said:

New or different enemies have the exact purpose of letting you experience new kinds of approaches. An enemy which is viable to every approach is not a threat whatsoever. 

Except you are not experiencing new ways, reflect is forcing you to take alternatives you already know. 

I solo Liches with Harrow which is a new experience that I can completely enjoy on my selected loadout.

Necramechs are mostly compareable to an electricity Lich, and when both have cast mines you disengage and put in ranged DPS, the Lich uses a huge kill beam and the mech shoots a gun while activating reflect.

On the Lich I can risk taking chip damage from the beam to shoot it and stop shield regen while it's a complete stop with the Necramech, that's not a new approach when it stops all approach if you're not using the frames that simply don't care, and if the reflect was chip damage then on Harrow or any good self heal or tank frame it's a non-problem and the already pretty harsh squishy frames are penalized even more.

In Divinity even when you have 100% reflect you have skills that can CC without doing too much damage to kill you, that's an approach Warframe cannot have when the damage you deal kills you or the enemy is in most cases immune to CC already.

[Lichformed]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Notice how he's asking for a complete removal instead of a better tell or indicator......

All these enemies are gonna be nerfed due to "misinformed" players. 

yes I'm asking for complete removal because I've played enough Path of Exile to know that reflect does not work and is not fun in a game where your damage overdoes your health by a huge margin, if it didn't it would be even less of a mechanic to even notice.

Even if it had better tells or indicators it wouldn't make it any more fun or interesting. I know when it does the reflect, I am informed in fighting the Necramechs and it's just annoying to deal with when not using frames that don't care. It's just a punishment for not using the already good frames.

[Methanoid]

dont use it?  ofc they will, same as archwing and railjack, throw in the "new thing" as a must have prerequisite then throw down a new event that needs it or you miss out, when they cant make something fun and liked, they just force the thing instead.

[Lichformed]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

i DO NOT WANT REMOVED. i want it tweaked to be manageable. I also dislike the fact that i have to wait half a minute cause the mech is completely invulnerable.

Sure if it did less% or had a damage cap more frames could withstand it without even caring at all, but then frames like Nyx that are already seeing little play would not even be an option even if someone found them to be fun to play or try just because it's a passive stop to your whole gameplay loop.

The way to make it manageable would be to have more health than damage, a "fix" Warframe cannot do.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, Lichformed said:

yes I'm asking for complete removal because I've played enough Path of Exile to know that reflect does not work and is not fun in a game where your damage overdoes your health by a huge margin, if it didn't it would be even less of a mechanic to even notice.

Even if it had better tells or indicators it wouldn't make it any more fun or interesting. I know when it does the reflect, I am informed in fighting the Necramechs and it's just annoying to deal with when not using frames that don't care. It's just a punishment for not using the already good frames.

No one cares if you played path of exile. This isn't path of exile. This is warframe. 

I've also played games with reflect and we managed just fine, except for the uninformed players that we had to revive because they couldn't bother to utilize the tell and stop dps for 2 seconds. 

But as I said its irrelevant. Saying "I played a game beforehand" isn't some special reason that means you're always right or something. You do realize that, right?

If they add a better tell or indicator, then that means the responsibility is fully on the player so they have to do more than just "pew pew".

[Lichformed]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

No one cares if you played path of exile. This isn't path of exile. This is warframe. 

I've also played games with reflect and we managed just fine, except for the uninformed players that we had to revive because they couldn't bother to utilize the tell and stop dps for 2 seconds. 

But as I said its irrelevant. Saying "I played a game beforehand" isn't some special reason that means you're always right or something. You do realize that, right?

If they add a better tell or indicator, then that means the responsibility is fully on the player so they have to do more than just "pew pew".

Yes this is Warframe and I stated Path of Exile as a reference as the damage is the same, over your health.

Please do state the games where reflect is manageable, I stated Divinity OS2 and have told why multiple times now, let me quess that in your example you deal less damage than you have HP.

And even if they add an indicator and the responsibility is on the player, the answer is "don't do anything"

Do you seriously want a mechanic that is fundamentally worse than an invulnerability phase where the punishment is you hitting yourself to death.

Do you like fighting Zealoid Prelate? Imagine that fight but if you hit him in the dark it's 1% reflected damage and you just fall to the floor, does that seriously sound like fun, the obvious visual clue of darkness would be there so it's perfectly balanced right?

Okay what if you do it in a squad and someone has a radiation lato and just decides to troll you with reflected radiation?

Do tell your example how you would make the system both manageable and fun

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Yes this is Warframe and I stated Path of Exile as a reference as the damage is the same, over your health.

Please do state the games where reflect is manageable, I stated Divinity OS2 and have told why multiple times now, let me quess that in your example you deal less damage than you have HP.

And even if they add an indicator and the responsibility is on the player, the answer is "don't do anything"

Do you seriously want a mechanic that is fundamentally worse than an invulnerability phase where the punishment is you hitting yourself to death.

Do you like fighting Zealoid Prelate? Imagine that fight but if you hit him in the dark it's 1% reflected damage and you just fall to the floor, does that seriously sound like fun, the obvious visual clue of darkness would be there so it's perfectly balanced right?

Okay what if you do it in a squad and someone has a radiation lato and just decides to troll you with reflected radiation?

Do tell your example how you would make the system both manageable and fun

1. I wouldn't run new content in public match because of uninformed players. So I dont have to worry about being trolled.

2. That's sounds great for the Zealoid fight.

3. Using "fun" and "fundamentally worse" are just opinions and aren't based on any data or facts.

4. Reflects have usually been an instant death in the games I played. It's to teach you to stop blindly shooting so much and try reading the fight. If you've had issues with them in the past it's because you're a "pew pew" player that just wants to kill something quick so you can move on. Welcome to a boss fight.

[Lichformed]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

1. I wouldn't run new content in public match because of uninformed players. So I dont have to worry about being trolled.

2. That's sounds great for the Zealoid fight.

3. Using "fun" and "fundamentally worse" are just opinions and aren't based on any data or facts.

4. Reflects have usually been an instant death in the games I played. It's to teach you to stop blindly shooting so much and try reading the fight. If you've had issues with them in the past it's because you're a "pew pew" player that just wants to kill something quick so you can move on. Welcome to a boss fight.

1. Me neither but I'm not advocating the change to be easier for myself but because it's a mechanic that is too different in it's punishing effect depending on your frame of choice

2. Yeah have fun using Titania and dying to your butterflies, have fun bullet jumping on a bunch of maggots and killing yourself with basic movement mechanics, have fun killing yourself with way too many accidental mechanics on different frames, have fun farming it without a Valkyr when you need to do absolutely nothing in the dark and make it an even worse slog of a grind

3. fun is opinionated yes but I'm pretty sure most would agree that "don't do anything" is pretty damn bad for prolonged gameplay

4. I'm still waiting on names for games and said fight with the mechanics so I can view the "boss fight" happening on a video on YouTube, and I don't think you've realized but this whole game is about being "pew pew" to kill stuff fast. But yeah please do state some relevant examples that I can compare the mechanic to other games, even though asking that of you completely contradicts your opening comment about nobody cares about X game when we talk about Warframe.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

1. Me neither but I'm not advocating the change to be easier for myself but because it's a mechanic that is too different in it's punishing effect depending on your frame of choice

2. Yeah have fun using Titania and dying to your butterflies, have fun bullet jumping on a bunch of maggots and killing yourself with basic movement mechanics, have fun killing yourself with way too many accidental mechanics on different frames, have fun farming it without a Valkyr when you need to do absolutely nothing in the dark and make it an even worse slog of a grind

3. fun is opinionated yes but I'm pretty sure most would agree that "don't do anything" is pretty damn bad for prolonged gameplay

4. I'm still waiting on names for games and said fight with the mechanics so I can view the "boss fight" happening on a video on YouTube, and I don't think you've realized but this whole game is about being "pew pew" to kill stuff fast. But yeah please do state some relevant examples that I can compare the mechanic to other games, even though asking that of you completely contradicts your opening comment about nobody cares about X game when we talk about Warframe.

If it's about all about pew pew then why did they even add it in the game? 

Do you work for DE? Were you sitting at the table during all the planning? 

Maybe you're just simply wrong and they wanna try a boss that doesn't get killed in 2 seconds. 

[Lichformed]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

If it's about all about pew pew then why did they even add it in the game? 

Do you work for DE? Were you sitting at the table during all the planning? 

Maybe you're just simply wrong and they wanna try a boss that doesn't get killed in 2 seconds. 

Thanks for finally making it clear you don't want to actually argue about the main topic.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 minute ago, Lichformed said:

Thanks for finally making it clear you don't want to actually argue about the main topic.

You claimed the game is about pew pew, so why did they add the mechanic?

[CheaseDragon]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

4. Reflects have usually been an instant death in the games I played. It's to teach you to stop blindly shooting so much and try reading the fight. If you've had issues with them in the past it's because you're a "pew pew" player that just wants to kill something quick so you can move on. Welcome to a boss fight.

It would be nice to share if you have some examples of well-implemented damage reflect. 😊

I cant say I have encountered it much in other games I've played (off the top of my head), so my earlier suggested tweaks are mostly based off my initial experience with the necramech. (i.e. before deliberately gearing specifically to fight him).

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, CheaseDragon said:

It would be nice to share if you have some examples of well-implemented damage reflect. 😊

I cant say I have encountered it much in other games I've played (off the top of my head), so my earlier suggested tweaks are mostly based off my initial experience with the necramech. (i.e. before deliberately gearing specifically to fight him).

Reflect has been used in Final Fantasy multiple times throughout.

There was also a reflect in DCUO.

It's really nothing new. 

It's to put brain dead dps in check by seeing if they're even capable to doing anything besides button mash. 

People in warframe and I guess other games are used to blindly attacking something until it dies without having to think or plan. 

You can't just one shot a boss now so people are upset they may have to put a bit more effort into a fight.

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

You claimed the game is about pew pew, so why did they add the mechanic?

"Don't distract them, this is very mentally taxing for a Tenno." - Necraloid, during a game of memory with 4 pieces. This game's about pew pew and mindless melee otherwise DE wouldn't have added that line.

[Lichformed]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Reflect has been used in Final Fantasy multiple times throughout.

There was also a reflect in DCUO.

It's really nothing new.

Finally, I'm not that knowledgeable on DCUO but we're in luck as Final Fantasy X is one of my favourite games of all time and my favourite boss in the game has reflect mechanics.

The boss is called "Sanctuary Keeper" and unless you've grinded enough Aeon (Summon) levels and their Overdrives (Cinematic abilities) you will face the reflect mechanic in that fight it casts healing magic on itself to heal for 9999 (story damage cap) that you most likely cannot deal to it, so you can cast reflect on it to have the heals be randomly redirected to you.

But the boss can cast reflect on your characters and cast healing on them to heal himself by bouncing the spell, also noted in Final Fantasy:

physical attacks are not reflected

you can use reflect to your advantage

you can completely dispel the reflect buff with another spell

And you do not deal enough damage to kill yourself in that point of the game

The reflect mechanic is completely balanced around the turn based nature of the game that I already stated is completely fine for a 100% reflect with so many weaknesses and interactions.

 

[Colyeses]

3 hours ago, Lichformed said:

It's just much easier to not bother with the mechanic at all from a design standpoint.

It's possible, but it requires very meticulous gameplay design. It needs to be integrated with existing mechanisms (IE: Shield regen must be disabled while the reflection is active, as players cannot damage the boss while this is happening and should not be punished for it by having the boss' shield recharge) and it needs to be telegraphed HARD. (Example: In Risk of Rain 2, a Scavenger will sometimes spawn a barrier, which lasts about three seconds. Any damage it takes while the barrier is up will be turned into a damage pulse at the end of those three seconds, giving players plenty of time to respond.)

[Lichformed]

Just now, Colyeses said:

It's possible, but it requires very meticulous gameplay design. It needs to be integrated with existing mechanisms (IE: Shield regen must be disabled while the reflection is active, as players cannot damage the boss while this is happening and should not be punished for it by having the boss' shield recharge) and it needs to be telegraphed HARD. (Example: In Risk of Rain 2, a Scavenger will sometimes spawn a barrier, which lasts about three seconds. Any damage it takes while the barrier is up will be turned into a damage pulse at the end of those three seconds, giving players plenty of time to respond.)

Yes, but with an ever evolving game like Warframe with all of these balance problems and designs I don't think it's healthy to bother with the mechanic when there's already enough interactions and content they need to upkeep in the game.

And in my original example of PoE the boss is years old and side content and they have not added reflect again for years because it's much easier to forget the mechanic from powercreep and constant mathematical balancing around it.

As stated I don't hate reflect on paper and many games I love have it in some form, but for Warframe I just don't see it as a worthy mechanic to add and always tweak around.

It's either problematic for the squishiest frames or every frame or it's math that gets forgotten that ends up as a noob trap, for example you add a new early game enemy that has reflect balanced around a new Mk-1 player but if that player has been gifted a lot of damage mods unavailable at that point it ends up in frustration.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

11 minutes ago, Lichformed said:

Finally, I'm not that knowledgeable on DCUO but we're in luck as Final Fantasy X is one of my favourite games of all time and my favourite boss in the game has reflect mechanics.

The boss is called "Sanctuary Keeper" and unless you've grinded enough Aeon (Summon) levels and their Overdrives (Cinematic abilities) you will face the reflect mechanic in that fight it casts healing magic on itself to heal for 9999 (story damage cap) that you most likely cannot deal to it, so you can cast reflect on it to have the heals be randomly redirected to you.

But the boss can cast reflect on your characters and cast healing on them to heal himself by bouncing the spell, also noted in Final Fantasy:

physical attacks are not reflected

you can use reflect to your advantage

you can completely dispel the reflect buff with another spell

And you do not deal enough damage to kill yourself in that point of the game

The reflect mechanic is completely balanced around the turn based nature of the game that I already stated is completely fine for a 100% reflect with so many weaknesses and interactions.

 

It's ok, a small minority has already stated this game has been nerfed to appease casuals over time: they recently nerfed all enemy EHP and I've heard multiple enemy mechanics and AI have been nerfed as well. 

You guys are the main player base and can't handle much, so they'll probably get rid of it. 

It seems the weak points and DR are already too much for you guys anyways. 

I already got the Steel path so I'm glad they at least made an attempt to meet capable players in the middle. 

[Lichformed]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

It's ok, a small minority has already stated this game has been nerfed to appease casuals over time: they recently nerfed all enemy EHP and I've heard multiple enemy mechanics and AI have been nerfed as well. 

You guys are the main player base and can't handle much, so they'll probably get rid of it. 

It seems the weak points and DR are already too much for you guys anyways. 

I already got the Steel path so I'm glad they at least made an attempt to meet capable players in the middle. 

I have played this game for years more than you so it's ironic for you to talk so high and mighty, also the Steel path is a gearcheck not a matter of being good at all.

But again thank you for making it clear you have no intent on talking about the main topic.

[Aldain]

6 hours ago, CheaseDragon said:

I think the damage reflection could be OK if it reflected up to a maximum number per shot and/or didn't cause status effects (or at least problematic ones).

Just like that we're back to the self-damage debates of old.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, Lichformed said:

I have played this game for years more than you so it's ironic for you to talk so high and mighty, also the Steel path is a gearcheck not a matter of being good at all.

But again thank you for making it clear you have no intent on talking about the main topic.

You can play a game for years and still be bad at it. Not sure why you think that would matter. 

They added a boss fight that has mechanics and actually isn't a "gear check" (which is just another empty platitude buzz word) and yet here you are, still. 

You had people saying it was no problem at all, so something is clearly different between you and them.