Why is it so hard to find a middle ground ?

[White_Matter]

Community : Content islands like POE, Railjack or Fortuna burn out really fast.

DE : Then let's make ranking up and crafting a longer and more tiresome process so it'll take longer for the content to burn out.

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

[Swagernator22663]

That's because DE has a higher ground.

[HomicidalGrouse]

What content are you grinding to access? The loot that gives you slightly different ways to grind the content? 

The grind IS the content... that's what this game is. 

[OniDax]

10 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Community : Content islands like POE, Railjack or Fortuna burn out really fast.

DE : Then let's make ranking up and crafting a longer and more tiresome process so it'll take longer for the content to burn out.

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

Making content islands more grindy and RNG-heavy doesn't make them any less of a content island. Making them more grindy/RNG-heavy also makes the burn out happen faster, because what burns the player out isn't just the grind, but the frustration over RNG not being in their favor (which means their time is being wasted). If you want to reduce burn out and make the open worlds less of a content island, then you do two things:

1) Remove the RNG elements from progression.

2) Allow players to farm resources in non-open world environments, or better yet, stop adding new resources and use existing tileset resources.

That's how you make content less "content island" and slow down the burn out.

[Aadi880]

3 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

Ehh...

Not really tbh.

Considering the type of game warframe has become, no content will be without grind. Without grind, there is no content.

For the most time, cosmetics has been the only outlier, and the one thing people often agree on.

[White_Matter]

8 minutes ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

What content are you grinding to access? The loot that gives you slightly different ways to grind the content? 
 

You need parts to craft new goodies, you need to rank up to get the parts. Ranking up requires you to farm a variety of resources, not just the standing. 

9 minutes ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

The grind IS the content... that's what this game is. 

Pretty much. That's why I'm asking whether there be a middle ground or not.

[Hokibukisa]

It’s a casual game, so the “hardcore” wf players burn out fast and ARE NOT to be prioritized.

But in this particular case, eeeveryone wants that Helminth module asap so it’s basically AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

[Firetempest]

Another that can't reach rank 3 fast enough.

It's day THREE. Give it a week and people will be complaining that there's nothing to do.

[Methanoid]

worst part of all this is that many disliked fortuna just being a copy/paste, reskinned new hub, renamed copy/pasted resources, renamed copy/paste everything, then this lands and its a copy/paste of both poe and fortuna, they have learned nothing, esp when trying to appease ppl that want a blasted horde run and gun game and only want that, no stupid fishing/mining/catching pokemon, but nope, all DE can do is copy/paste the same boring/dull/stupid/un-ninja'like rubbish over and over and over and over.

If its gfx and sound DE always throw in maximum effort, anything else however is always the bare minimum effort and thats why we have 3 open world islands that outside of appearance are all 99.9% identical.

[HomicidalGrouse]

1 minute ago, Hokibukisa said:

It’s a casual game, so the “hardcore” wf players burn out fast and ARE NOT to be prioritized.

But in this particular case, eeeveryone wants that Helminth module asap so it’s basically AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

It's funny because I played the Heart of Deimos quest and did a little bit of stuff for tokens, but I've spent all morning farming strain mods in the Orb Vallis because I want to run around Deimos with a Helminth Charger. 

Some people seem to forget that it's just a game. There's no need to be so sweaty about it. 

[Firetempest]

 

3 minutes ago, Methanoid said:

no stupid fishing/mining/catching pokemon, but nope, all DE can do is copy/paste the same boring/dull/stupid/un-ninja'like rubbish 

I like that rubbish

[Urlan]

The real take away that folk should understand is that grind isn't something to do; its busy work. Folk are wanting to get the content of the update, and those are squarely in the Entrati offerings and Necraloid offerings; so its understandable that folk would want those in a reasonable amount of time. If grind is being used as the only means of keeping folk playing, by dangling the carrot and saying "just until you get it done, then you can rest" folk are going to do like the previous open worlds, and Railjack and avoid those encounters afterwards. You shouldn't try to judge the majority of players by a narrow subsection.

[vegetosayajin]

9 minutes ago, Hokibukisa said:

eeeveryone wants that Helminth module asap so it’s basically AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

I want it.
But I have all the time to get it so... I'm not gonna ruin my joy from all the other stuff just by rushing the thing.
Also by the time I have it probably a number tenno will have it, they will find the bugs, they will nerf this and that and after all of it I can choose with at least more thought into it.

[Methanoid]

2 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

 

I like that rubbish

great thats 1 side of a coin, how hard to cater to both, its not rocket surgery or brain science to cater to both.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Can there be a middle ground for players that feel the need to rush everything? 

[TanyaFFXIV]

33 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Community : Content islands like POE, Railjack or Fortuna burn out really fast.

DE : Then let's make ranking up and crafting a longer and more tiresome process so it'll take longer for the content to burn out.

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

The problem is they took a game mode that was purely optional conservation and made it mandatory.

What's next making PVP mandatory?

Simply put optional content should never be mandatory.

[Hokibukisa]

6 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

I want it.
But I have all the time to get it so... I'm not gonna ruin my joy from all the other stuff just by rushing the thing.
Also by the time I have it probably a number tenno will have it, they will find the bugs, they will nerf this and that and after all of it I can choose with at least more thought into it.

That’s what I did with railjack. When I got back to the game all the issues with RJ were fixed so it was smooth sailing and I had an OP and fun rj experience in less than a week.

It didn’t effect the parts of the game that I’m into so I was like ok whatever.

Helminth module: AAAAHHH GIVE IT TO ME NOW NOW NOW

[Tonin4ABonin]

1 hour ago, Hokibukisa said:

It’s a casual game, so the “hardcore” wf players burn out fast and ARE NOT to be prioritized.

But in this particular case, eeeveryone wants that Helminth module asap so it’s basically AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

DE: you guys should be hyped for this new update! Here's all the cool S#&$

Players: I want to play with the coolS#&$

DE: But here's 5000 bugs that prevent you from progressing and doing anything. And you're forced to do things you don't want to when you aren't in POE or Vallis

 

Protip, progression bugs affect EVERYONE 

[Oreades]

If I was to guess on the lack of a middle ground, it's because DE likes to make decisions that juice the metrics. 

Time and time again QoL is denied or functions are stripped out of the game so people are forced to interact with it the way the developers want. 

Examples that spring to mind (inclusive but not limited to):

1. Not having access to Simaris from the orbiter
   • As far as I am aware the literal only explanation we have ever received was from a devstream and was along the lines of "to keep the relays relevant" 
2. Rivin transmuters
   • Yeah transmuting mods is a basic featuter of the game BUT they decided to strip it out with regards to rivens (the only mods in the game that have their own paid storage cap) and tie it around the new Eidolon content like a porkchop so people will have to do it. Who cares if they enjoy it, transactions~ 
3. Helminth Segment
   • The feature that they know people want access to the most, the feature that they demoed the most when pitching Daemos, locked behind a bunch of Daemos grind, instead of being part of the initial quest and letting you explore Daemos at your own pace. They could have just as easily made the blueprint for the Warframe the T3 thing to encourage people to engage without driving burnout to the new resource sink & hurry up and wait mechanic that came with Daemos (the hemihurmurhalath?). 

Now I'm very sure that someone at DE probably wanted to lock the Helmwhatever segment behind T5 Daemos rep and kudos to whoever stopped that, like fersrs they should get free fancy coffee for a month. But still you need to ask yourself if they had given players who qualified for Daemos access to the segment from the start, would that have changed peoples engagement in a negative way? 

I guess the question is can the content itself stand on it's own? Does it really need the prokchop? and most importantly is the porkchop itself causing players to interact with the content in a way that ultimately does more harm than good? 

 

 

[GNDZer0]

People are trying to figure out the one thing that's wrong when it's a mix of things instead. (spoiler: conservation plays a big role here) 

The problem for most people isn't having to rank up a syndicate for content. It's the type of activities it's locked behind. (the worst being conservation due to how horrible getting stuff for tokens is with the awful randomization of token materials and required quantities, but fishing being conceptually just as bad and just not raising as many flags since its not as rough and buggy and by far not requiring as much time in a minigame they don't enjoy to unlock a shiny feature) it's mostly not about grinding but about how you're made to grind an alternative minigame for new content. (People had no problem with conservation in other open world areas because they were an OPTIONAL way to get standing if you wanted to chill from the main game loop. 

Adding content that's u enjoyable to most people with the myriad of bugs that come a new release doesn't help. 

People arguing that the game on previous iterations got fixed in these bugs are forgetting this only happens because people complain about it.

Forcing people to have harsh farm on a side activity for a specific thing acts the opposite way of extending content. Even people who might have wanted to do fishing and conservation are going to remember those as chores. 

I'd have really enjoyed conservation if it was done to retrieve a companion, nurse it to health and collect different pets, maybe have a pet collection room, just by itself. But now I'm probably staying far away from the system altogether when this ends. 

DE could probably gonna pull up some numbers of how much people are liking conservation in the short term ignoring this system is just bloating those numbers with people who are having a worse time with the game due to it.

There's also close to no explanation on the systems in the bounties, ignoring the bugs, the UI isn't clear about how to achieve some objectives which can turn annoying for those less inclined to test things out.

BUGS BUGS BUGS (this one is hardly avoidable, it's a new patch, tons of Content, tons of bugs, even if people understand how colossal of a task this is, it'll piss them off)

Also the token system itself could be really cool to allow you to overfarm for a day or two, to back to the rest of Warframe and keep exchanging standing without burning out on it by being "forced" to play it daily. And I believe in the long run, it is a good thing but it's being looked at negatively due to the decision of using specialized tokens to progress (damn, had been a short while without talking about the minigames) 

 

Note: Despite the somewhat harsh criticism I actually think this update has the makings of something really enjoyable if/when this gets addressed.

[Galuf]

All the hassle in deimos is there to inflate the lifespan of the content. Seems obvious.

[killerJoke66]

56 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

 

I like that rubbish

liking hunting/mining/fishing is a personal reference , just like the guy that hates it , Though mini-games being forced to proggress isn't ' n i c e '. to be politely put. 

[killerJoke66]

41 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Now I'm very sure that someone at DE probably wanted to lock the Helmwhatever segment behind T5 Daemos rep and kudos to whoever stopped that,

 

Thank goodness if that were to be the case 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

no, and I dare say you're a fool if you think such a thing is acheiveable.

there will always be the vocal minority on both sides of the argument, and while they exist, no middle ground can ever hope be reached. every discussion turns into a shouting match, and that's never more obvious than when we get an open world. Conservation good vs bad, Nechramech nerfs vs keeping them as they are, too many tokens vs enough tokens....on and on and on. usually the nerfhammer wins out, but whoever wins, it displeases enough people to keep the fires burning.

 

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

We can't even get a middle ground between 1-button nukes and hyperspecific damage-type sponge enemies.

Things are too polarized in terms of damage potential and way too effortless to farm on average so of course DE has no choice but to spam RNG blocks to slow players down.

I still hold that the reason Warframe is in the state that currently is isn't because of one side or the other in the casual/hardcore debate, but rather both being driven to spite each other and that creating this bipolar development schema because DE is trying to appeal to two opposite extremes that would rather see the other exterminated completely than compromise in any way.