Why is it so hard to find a middle ground ?

[Aadi880]

I think part of the problem is how DE tries to appease everyone.

The result ends up extremely divided communities. Personally, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but the Warframe community is one of the most divided gaming communities I have ever come across.

People can't decided what "endgame" should be, or what would be considered "meaningful rewards", or what is should be "bullet-sponge" and what should be a "challenge". People can't decide what they all collectively want, because there just too many kinds of people.

The "middle-ground" of one community is the "high-ground" or "lower-ground" of another. You make an enemy that don't die in one hit? Someone says its a bullet-sponge. You put a reason to do railjack, we had threads that says "I'm being forced to do railjack". Same for kuva liches. Same for steel-path having mastery.

A content that is purely optional is seen mandatory to others, and at the same time, not mandatory too.

You make content for a specific community, you end up alienating others.

This results in extremely mixed feedback, leading to mixed content, and the cycle would repeat, and repeat, AND REPEAT.

If this continues, the only middle ground I can see happening if you change the genre of the game to this:

"Warframe is a sandbox"

Because really, we have a detective-game, a space shooter, a looter shooter, a clicker game with big numbers, a zombie shooter, a damn space basket ball, a Horde Shooter but you melee most of the time, another shooter but with less enemies xD, 2d side scroller games, a grinder, a farm simulator, Mining, fishing, conservation, endurance running, racing, building and a fashion show.

In the future we might get Titanfall because why tf not at this point?

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

No some Vet players will always whine about no endgame content and that they can’t win stuff.Theirs so much more to warframe then winning and getting items and it’s such a shallow perspective in my view. Theirs a ton of content in warframe that can always be done and warframe is a community based game,so do good by the community and contribute to it instead of being selfish about wanting more stuff and how nothing’s good enough for you. 

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

worst part of all this is that many disliked fortuna just being a copy/paste, reskinned new hub, renamed copy/pasted resources, renamed copy/paste everything, then this lands and its a copy/paste of both poe and fortuna, they have learned nothing, esp when trying to appease ppl that want a blasted horde run and gun game and only want that, no stupid fishing/mining/catching pokemon, but nope, all DE can do is copy/paste the same boring/dull/stupid/un-ninja'like rubbish over and over and over and over.

If its gfx and sound DE always throw in maximum effort, anything else however is always the bare minimum effort and thats why we have 3 open world islands that outside of appearance are all 99.9% identical.

I have never understood this thought process. If the open worlds are just "copy paste" then what the fudge isn't copy paste? A new tile set just reuses old mission types. New mission types just reuse old enemies. New weapons reuse animations and are all modded the same way. Warframes are just four new abilities that we do the same content with. Even the glorious Second Dream mostly just reuses old gameplay systems and assets. You think "content islands" are bad now? Just wait till DE has to design entirely new progression and gameplay systems for every major update because a few complainers kept saying that they were just "copy pasting".

You are entitled to your opinion that you don't like that content, but it is entirely unfair and hypocritical to say DE is "just" copy pasting content for the open worlds.

[o0Despair0o]

1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

Another that can't reach rank 3 fast enough.

The problem is that these tokens allow you to rank up so quickly that you constantly get locked out of progess by daily cap time gates.

Seriously, I spent most of my time in the game wondering why I should even bother to play, since I won't be making any progress for the next 23.5 hours.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

It's day THREE. Give it a week and people will be complaining that there's nothing to do.

I'd rather do literally nothing than grind conservation. Helminth on the other hand, will probably give me months worth of WF fun. Would it be so horrible to you if I enjoyed my Helminth toys while progressing through the lower ranks of the Entrati syndicate? Instead, it looks like I will be taking my time and money elsewhere.

[(PSN)Exia0321]

1 hour ago, Hokibukisa said:

But in this particular case, eeeveryone wants that Helminth module asap so it’s basically AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!

Yes!

I am STUNNED that my opinion has so changed on the issue of "pay to win/advance"

Cause I am so in favor of DE just giving us an option to spend plat to buy the damn Helminth access module. 

That is something I never thought I would support. 

But I am debating myself because I dont think the Helminth system itself should be considered pay to win. 

So kinda shocked DE didnt do that option.

[Hokibukisa]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Exia0321 said:

Yes!

I am STUNNED that my opinion has so changed on the issue of "pay to win/advance"

Cause I am so in favor of DE just giving us an option to spend plat to buy the damn Helminth access module. 

That is something I never thought I would support. 

But I am debating myself because I dont think the Helminth system itself should be considered pay to win. 

So kinda shocked DE didnt do that option.

There’s a few things that prove they don’t know how to monetize a freemium game properly.

Whoever buys them, the first thing that will happen is an ingame version of warframe.market, and most resources will become tradeable.

You gotta let the whales whale if you don’t want to have to sellout.

Ive never understood people who play a free game being against allowing the people who PAY for the game to be free to them, enjoy skipping some grind.

That isn’t pay to win, that’s just freemium.

[(PSN)Exia0321]

48 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Warframe is in the state that currently is isn't because of one side or the other in the casual/hardcore debate, but rather both being driven to spite each other and that creating this bipolar development schema because DE is trying to appeal to two opposite extremes that would rather see the other exterminated completely than compromise in any way.

So true!

But there is the 3rd side of this two-sided coin. 

The thin layer of folks who switch from sometime when I login I want a hardcore experience with gear-checks and demanding challenges and other times when I login I want to just do zombie zone-out missions where I just spam a button and wipe out enemies. 

Thats why I fully appreciate Warframe and DE.

This game allows me to experience both in a single game. 

[Aadi880]

15 minutes ago, Hokibukisa said:

There’s a few things that prove they don’t know how to monetize a freemium game properly.

To be fair, when your own premium currency is farmable from the game through trading, there can be quite a lot of problems.

DE is a private sector company at the end of the day. They would want to make profits as that is their primary goal (same for any private sector business).

If my conversions are correct, 1 platinum = 0.06 cents. Its tradable from the game, so nothing is actually locked out at all. So the actual "value" of platinum is far, FAR lower. Only other way to make profits is to include cosmetics and stuff (which DE does a lot of). However, this alone is not enough to sustain a 35 Gig game with 100k+players on all platforms running a live service where bugs and new content are a common encounter, not to mention they need to pay back their investor Leyou. One and done stuff like cosmetics won't work here. Here, we get Prime Access, Vaultings, and stuff that can skip the grind entirely, as these aren't really one and done in terms of money.

But how much of grind should it skip? Remember "Rush Repair Drones" at launch? Something like that and the community at large thinks it's pay to win (1 RRD = costing $1.2). Its upto DE to find the line, drawn by literally no one.

tbh, I don't think there a proper 1 way to monetize such a thing. Rather, its multiple things, because there are multiple different communities running different mindsets, and how they view what is acceptable monetization.

Not saying they should make platinum non-tradeable, no. I don't think anyone can expect DE to know how to monetize a freemium game like Warframe.

[(PSN)NWOslave]

2 hours ago, vegetosayajin said:

I want it.
But I have all the time to get it so... I'm not gonna ruin my joy from all the other stuff just by rushing the thing.
Also by the time I have it probably a number tenno will have it, they will find the bugs, they will nerf this and that and after all of it I can choose with at least more thought into it.

and it is for this reason i havent even finished the "heart of deimos" quest yet. look at all the changes they are posting in the update thread. wow. im just going to log in, download the new update then log out and go play battlefront 2 and practice my saber swing. 

[ixidron92]

The problem is there's no way for DE to offer us challenging content that's fun to replay, and that's by design. There are so many weapons, abilities, warframes and mods, that you can't balance that insane cluster*ck. 

Game needs 3 thing:

-Dungeons/raid: Challenging premade maps with a series of bosses, challenges and puzzles. Prtetty much like any other RPG.

-Procedural seamless missions: Taken from the 20+ objective types 3-5 objectives are taken at random to create a mission. Objective time is adjusted so missions last around 10 minutes tops. At the end of a mission, you can chain it with the next and keep going. 

-Tower climbing challenge: The tower of the Unum offers a challenge. Climb the tower. You get no mods, no operator and begin with 1 of the 7 basic frames (Rhino, Volt, Nyx, Loki, Mag, Excalibur, Trinity) and start with the basic gear (Braton/paris/strum, Lato/kunai, Bo/Furax/Skana). You're presented with a series of challenges, puzzles, objectives, and you need to solve them to get to the next floor. You'll find new gear and warframes on your way up. Every floor increases in difficulty. There's a global ranking of the top climbers. Everything is balanced around no mods. 

[GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Community : Content islands like POE, Railjack or Fortuna burn out really fast.

DE : Then let's make ranking up and crafting a longer and more tiresome process so it'll take longer for the content to burn out.

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

Honestly, it's a false narrative from the players and can be a depressing issue for the devs.

Warframe offers multiple alternatives to obtain rewards by but ALWAYS reward the player with something usable, regardless of experience. The issue always begins with the whiney, perhaps very young kid crowd, that just wants the "big reward item" ASAP and will use any means necessary to convince DE to lighten the load for them...or just give it to them. The weakest argument involves players using talking points that are good rallying cries, such as:

"I shouldn't have to work when playing a game". A game's core feature is working towards a goal. Key word is "working". 

"It's grind on top of grind". This is usually the week one crowd. I still remember Railjack getting attacked during week one...only to then find players already maxing out their ships within that same week. 

"It's another content island". This is usually the youtuber worshipper type of crowd. Lunaro and the mini games are the only outside game modes in warframe, as stated by DE. Everything else has had direct tie-ins with the main game, from archwings to the open worlds. Even the special event missions have foretold of the next steps. The game is one big story and I've never heard of a long story without chapters. DE just can't create it fast enough...which youtubers are fully aware of and use it to their advantage for their own controversial topics to increase views.

Yes, there are issues, no different than any other company or project. Some of us however, are absolutely horrible clients that almost seem more focused on harming than helping. This may be an age/maturity thing, or because internet, but we have to be better. If we want to improve the overall Warframe experience, we must first rework this community. 

[GEN-Son_17]

4 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

The problem is there's no way for DE to offer us challenging content that's fun to replay, and that's by design. There are so many weapons, abilities, warframes and mods, that you can't balance that insane cluster*ck. 

Game needs 3 thing:

-Dungeons/raid: Challenging premade maps with a series of bosses, challenges and puzzles. Prtetty much like any other RPG.

-Procedural seamless missions: Taken from the 20+ objective types 3-5 objectives are taken at random to create a mission. Objective time is adjusted so missions last around 10 minutes tops. At the end of a mission, you can chain it with the next and keep going. 

-Tower climbing challenge: The tower of the Unum offers a challenge. Climb the tower. You get no mods, no operator and begin with 1 of the 7 basic frames (Rhino, Volt, Nyx, Loki, Mag, Excalibur, Trinity) and start with the basic gear (Braton/paris/strum, Lato/kunai, Bo/Furax/Skana). You're presented with a series of challenges, puzzles, objectives, and you need to solve them to get to the next floor. You'll find new gear and warframes on your way up. Every floor increases in difficulty. There's a global ranking of the top climbers. Everything is balanced around no mods. 

I like these ideas and can say Heart of Deimos actually fulfilled most of them with the endless missions and various puzzles on the surface and the caves. That last challenge would destroy players... I'm in! Lol!

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, Oreades said:

 

1. Helminth Segment
   • The feature that they know people want access to the most, the feature that they demoed the most when pitching Daemos, locked behind a bunch of Daemos grind, instead of being part of the initial quest and letting you explore Daemos at your own pace. They could have just as easily made the blueprint for the Warframe the T3 thing to encourage people to engage without driving burnout to the new resource sink & hurry up and wait mechanic that came with Daemos (the hemihurmurhalath?). 

 

 

 

I like this suggestion.  Because as it stands, you get that Xaku blueprint pretty quickly.  And maybe I had good luck, but I got their pieces blueprints pretty fast too.  But then you hit a wall with scintillant (which they may be fixing today), so it's like a bait and switch.  I would have preferred Helminth earlier and Xaku later, along with their weapons.

 

...especially because Helminth is likely to take a lot of time with subsuming and such.  Maybe even building it in the first place.

[EinTheDoge]

3 hours ago, Firetempest said:

Another that can't reach rank 3 fast enough.

It's day THREE. Give it a week and people will be complaining that there's nothing to do.

this is what i think of when people complain about the necramech grind.

[killerJoke66]

3 hours ago, Tonin4ABonin said:

DE: you guys should be hyped for this new update! Here's all the cool S#&$

Players: I want to play with the coolS#&$

DE: But here's 5000 bugs that prevent you from progressing and doing anything. And you're forced to do things you don't want to when you aren't in POE or Vallis

 

Protip, progression bugs affect EVERYONE 

to be completely fair , this time we have waaay less bugs compared to other big updates and dont know about the 5000 bugs(i know exaggeration but still) , i have free time now and basically spamming missions , theres only 3 consistant bugs that i found that i can get though either void dashing or bullet jumpig etc. Though the inital release was more  buggy i agree , and they fixed the little bugs that annoyed people the most so . 

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I like this suggestion.  Because as it stands, you get that Xaku blueprint pretty quickly.  And maybe I had good luck, but I got their pieces blueprints pretty fast too.  But then you hit a wall with scintillant (which they may be fixing today), so it's like a bait and switch.  I would have preferred Helminth earlier and Xaku later, along with their weapons.

 

...especially because Helminth is likely to take a lot of time with subsuming and such.  Maybe even building it in the first place.

Yeah to me getting the segment and then earning ranks for the frame blueprint just seems like it would have flowed better. 

Grinding bounties for the components (which is gaining you rep) and having the blueprint in the faction rewards just seems complementary. 

Where as how it was presented is similar but to me feels discordant. I guess it's the difference between having a new system and a goal vs being presented with two things you really can't do anything with in the immediacy and a goal. 

And it isn't like the helminth system just hands everything to you on a silver platter as it is itself another subset of resource sinks and time gates. Which is probably why the fact that it's acquisition is buried behind a new series of resource sinks and time gates is not as palatable as it could have been. 

[Jukantos]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Firetempest:

Another that can't reach rank 3 fast enough.

It's day THREE. Give it a week and people will be complaining that there's nothing to do.

Fam ive spent 10 hours of ONLY conservation to get all of 2 "common" birds. You need 5 tags to promote to the needed syndicate rank 3. And at this point i'm so close to selfharm that i've decided that i will simply NEVER own the helminth system because i'd rather cut myself than have another bird not spawn after doing the correct call for the 30th #*!%ing time. It's so beyond broken i refuse to accept that this went through more than basic "are hard progression stoppers in the intro quest" testing. This was pushed out WAY before it was anywhere near ready.

[Loveframe]

The problem isn't with the grind(s). The problem is with the islands.

There isn't anything that connects the experiences of Star Chart, Open Worlds or Railjack. They are each isolated thing with their own rewards, currencies and experiences. This is a problem that could be alleviated with some type of currency/resource squish/combination. Like make Star Chart drop universal faction rep item that can be turned in anywhere like the Universal Syndicate Medallions - you could even use that same item to be used to Open World factions just increase their drop location and lower their drop chance. And make it so instead of only selling weapons/frames we have the option to reprocess them into their source materials (or some % of source materials).

The community and game really wants what was demo'd in 2018 at TennoCon where players use a Railjack to fly around fighting ships, while someone on their crew goes into a capital ship and starts up a sabotage mission while another team on the open world receives a request to provide a buff to the other team and each are contributing and collecting rewards doing the things they like. <- currently I've given up ever seeing this ever happen in this game.

[Methanoid]

3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I have never understood this thought process. If the open worlds are just "copy paste" then what the fudge isn't copy paste? A new tile set just reuses old mission types. New mission types just reuse old enemies. New weapons reuse animations and are all modded the same way. Warframes are just four new abilities that we do the same content with. Even the glorious Second Dream mostly just reuses old gameplay systems and assets. You think "content islands" are bad now? Just wait till DE has to design entirely new progression and gameplay systems for every major update because a few complainers kept saying that they were just "copy pasting".

You are entitled to your opinion that you don't like that content, but it is entirely unfair and hypocritical to say DE is "just" copy pasting content for the open worlds.

new missions at least try to do something a bit different, but the mechanics/operation of all open world are identical with no attempt to make them unique or different beyond the graphics, also no attempt made to make the experience any better for those who do not like mining/fishing/conservation, they could quite easily satisfy both sides that like and dislike that rubbish, but nope, minimal effort yet again. 

[Kimimoto]

5 hours ago, HomicidalGrouse said:

The grind IS the content... that's what this game is. 

Yeah, but the grind has no purpose that's the problem. It's shallow.

[PookieNumnums]

Community goal unlocks and removal of standing cap. Quality not quantity. Expansion over new mechanics. Valence fusion for pets, frames, and normal weapons. And yeah. Use normal resources. 

[(PSN)Navalhabr]

5 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Community : Content islands like POE, Railjack or Fortuna burn out really fast.

DE : Then let's make ranking up and crafting a longer and more tiresome process so it'll take longer for the content to burn out.

Do you guys think there can be a middle ground  where the quality and quantity of the content increases replay value instead of the duration of the grind to access the content ? 

Fortuna was near perfect for me. Grindy but fair. 

My only problem was the Profit Taker locked behind the sindicate 

The new open area is amazing, i'm loving it. But the new system is total trash.

ppl are saying is amazing, because now you can play and stock tokens, but this is a lie.

You CAN'T stock tokens, because you need to WAIT the charachter bring them (time gates) and pray to have the correct order of items.

To level UP the MAIN SINDICATE, you just need to do bonties and get 2000 Mother Tokens and trade with Granma.

Which means, in the future you can forget ALL "Character" because you will have 10.000 MOTHER TOKENS to spent and buy anything.

Instead to keep me by the FUN, DE want to keep me by the TIME.

 

 

 

 

 

[White_Matter]

I also noticed that the bounties in Deimos take longer than those in POE or Fortuna. So I play for like an hour or two and I got like a few bounties done. Progress also feels slower in that regard as well. 

I think there has to be a balance. If the bounties are longer, then drop chances/requirements should be more fair. 

 

[HomicidalGrouse]

On 2020-08-27 at 3:05 PM, Kimimoto said:

Yeah, but the grind has no purpose that's the problem. It's shallow.

And how do you think you would fix that, exactly?