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Necromech feedback + Archgun ammo economy concerns/demo


boo425

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After claiming my Voidrig today I've been spending quite the extensive amount of time trying to level it - so here's some feedback from roughly 6 hours of Mech play time.

Acquisition
Farming for the Mech itself was far too painful.

  • Ignoring the Day 1 syndicate grind the damaged components were far too rare, even with Nekros + Suicide looting before it was patched.
  • Scintillant is far too difficult to acquire, even for only the 2 required for the Mech.
  • The Necromech syndicate feels extremely empty after claiming the Voidrig.
  • Mods are far too difficult to acquire, the 12 mod slots seem redundant given the general rarity of them and how fewer total there are.

Bugs/General
So from the play time today I've run into 3-4 different soft locks of varying difficulty to navigate around alongside different progression issues

Bugs

  • When using Umbra as a client you occassionally won't transfer to Warframe or Operator but will be stuck clipped inside of the Umbra spectre and cannot regain control till Umbra dies.
  • Redeploying the Necromech causes you to lose all gained affinity from the session.
    • Redeploying after the Necromech has died however seems to keep affinity.
  • Redeploying the Nercromech after being killed in it may cause it to spawn without full health/shields.
  • Dual Decurion don't have proper rigging, the second Decurion is just floating clipped into the Mech's hand
  • Returning to a town/hub in Operator mode whilst a Necromech is deployed will cause it to fall under the map infinitely until Operator mode is used again upon returning to an open world - any changes made to the Mech whilst in town won't be applied to the Mech stuck falling under the map
  • When playing as a client, exiting and re-entering Guard Mode (the 4th ability) will stack your equipped mods
  • After staying in your Necromech for extended periods of time you will be unable to enter Archwing upon re-entering your warframe until you... use your K-drive and then dismount

General

  • The yellow UI (not sure if this is because of my own settings or not) makes spotting the crosshair very difficult and the ammo counter hard to monitor, even without excessive FX from an ember/etc.
  • Melee is too awkward - the first swing almost never connects and knockback is too unreliable
  • The Voidrig is not visible in the Codex/Profile; it's hard to tell whether it awards Mastery or not.
  • The 9th slot of the exalted weapon is in an extremely odd spot; why not put it in the position of the Exilus mod slot for weapons than randomly on a seperate row
  • The first ability (Necroweb I think it's called) is awkward to use; the grenade rolling on the ground a bit makes it difficult to aim properly whilst the inflight detonation and tooltip seem redundant.
    • Perhaps a second press of the ability whilst the grenade is in flight could cause a detonation whilst a singular will make the web form on contact with the ground?
  • The fourth ability (defense mode I think it's called) is the only saving grace to this Mech right now as it is just plainly stupid powerful; my only gripe is the aggressive projectile drop

Ammo Economy
This is the conversation we should have had years ago - back with Fortuna 2 when the initial Heavy weapon backlash was kicking up. This is what heavy weapons should have been at launch but even then - this economy needs tuning.

CHARGE WEAPONS

  • The Velocitus, Corvas and Larkspur alt fire fall under this category
  • All charge weapons are in a perfect state; if not overtuned
  • Charge weapons regen ammo with the delay based on the last the weapon fired, ignoring charges effectively giving all charge weapons infinite ammo
  • Although it feels nice, with the Velocitus recently getting buffed an adjustment to ammo regen may be needed
    • Perhaps halt ammo regeneration whilst a shot is charging?

BURST FIRE WEAPONS

  • The Cyngas is the only member of this family currently
  • The Cyngas is suffering greatly from the regen delay and extremely slowed regen
  • Whilst used by the Mech the Cyngas has a maximum ammo capacity of 30 (15 without ammo chain) which rapidly depletes even against low level targets
  • It takes upwards of 6 seconds for ammo to regen to full uninterrupted
    • The Cyngas' ammo pool is too low for the damage output, perhaps increasing the ammo to be on par with full auto weapons as it still holds similar TTK to them

FULL AUTO WEAPONS

  • The Grattler, Dual Decurion, Imperator family,Ayanga, Phaedra, Mausolon and Larkspur primary fire fall under this category
  • Although each weapon seemingly have indepent regeneration rate they all take excessively large amounts of time to regenerate ammo
    • this issue is further made worse when not under testing circumstances as you will be interuptting recharge constantly
  • The Imperator Vandal in particular I tested/timed took an excessively long period of time to regenerate ammo
    • These mechs are only usable in open worlds, what is the point of excessively hampering Archguns from having a space in the regular gameplay loop

 

Thoughts
The ammo regeneration of every weapon other than charge weapons needs to be increased significantly; these Mechs are only available on open world spaces which makes no sense why they have such strict penalties put on them. I understand that this is a brand new weapon family/vehicle family but for a first impression the Voidrig experience is leaving a very bad taste.

As for why I've left no extensive thoughts/suggestions on any ability other than the first - because these mechs are open world only they take forever to level up. There are very few efficient levelling avenues let alone fun levelling avenues like with items involved in the regular gameplay loop, so survival, Hydron, ESO - all the fun ones/efficient ones aren't possible.

 

I was going to write more but I've been recording evidence/writing for a couple of hours now. Okay. Bye.

 

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17 minutes ago, boo425 said:

Ignoring the Day 1 syndicate grind the damaged components were far too rare

Damaged components aren't rare (except Weapon ones).

There's a bug around that makes dropped components fall thru the map. If you don't stay close to the Necramech when it dies, you will miss quite a lot of components.

I've been averaging 2~3 components per T1 thru T3 run.

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26 minutes ago, (PS4)Quantaminum said:

There's a bug around that makes dropped components fall thru the map. If you don't stay close to the Necramech when it dies, you will miss quite a lot of components.

I've been averaging 2~3 components per T1 thru T3 run.

Whoa. Thank you. 

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I still don't understand why we can't use the Nechromechs (and K-Drives, while we're at it) in indoor maps. Most of them have wide enough spaces to store a Nechromech, and the game already has built-in checks to prevent summoning vehicles where they'll clip into terrain (Invalid Launch Point).

Also, are you saying that Necromechs can use all Archguns with Archwing ammo regen mechanics?

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37 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

I still don't understand why we can't use the Nechromechs (and K-Drives, while we're at it) in indoor maps. Most of them have wide enough spaces to store a Nechromech, and the game already has built-in checks to prevent summoning vehicles where they'll clip into terrain (Invalid Launch Point).

Also, are you saying that Necromechs can use all Archguns with Archwing ammo regen mechanics?

Necromechs can use any Archgun with a Gravimag equipped but have severely reduced ammo regen (see the videos above).

Like it took the Imperator a literal minute to regen 300 rounds.

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1 hour ago, boo425 said:

Necromechs can use any Archgun with a Gravimag equipped but have severely reduced ammo regen (see the videos above).

Like it took the Imperator a literal minute to regen 300 rounds.

Wut. Has anyone playtested that or even checked the math. It seens absurd to expect someone to watch paint dry that much time. 

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29 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Wut. Has anyone playtested that or even checked the math. It seens absurd to expect someone to watch paint dry that much time. 

I doubt extremely large amounts of the Necromech was tested. I'll have to update the post up top because since I wrote it I found 2 more bugs and have pretty much come to the conclusion that the base weapon the Mech comes with (the Mausolon) is the best one to run since it's literally balanced for use with the thing whilst:

  • Phaedra and Imperator run out of ammo within seconds during level 50+ content
  • Velocitus and Corvas have no mobbing potential
  • I don't even dare look at what they did to the poor Larkspur
  • The Cyngas is nearly unusable it has such a low ammo capacity
  • The Corvas is hilariously tiny in your Mech's hands

VbFFt9v.jpg

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Just now, boo425 said:

I doubt extremely large amounts of the Necromech was tested. I'll have to update the post up top because since I wrote it I found 2 more bugs and have pretty much come to the conclusion that the base weapon the Mech comes with (the Mausolon) is the best one to run since it's literally balanced for use with the thing whilst:

  • Phaedra and Imperator run out of ammo within seconds during level 50+ content
  • Velocitus and Corvas have no mobbing potential
  • I don't even dare look at what they did to the poor Larkspur
  • The Cyngas is nearly unusable it has such a low ammo capacity
  • The Corvas is hilariously tiny in your Mech's hands

I knew they were incomplete. Loom at their melee ( that can't be their plans ) but man just making some baisc math to make sure weapons reload at the wrost case after 5 seconds should be expected. I was in rush to get them but I guess I'm better off just getting the helminth segment until people complain enought to fix all the nonsense 

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3 часа назад, (PS4)Quantaminum сказал:

There's a bug around that makes dropped components fall thru the map. If you don't stay close to the Necramech when it dies, you will miss quite a lot of components.

So thats why its bloody impossible to get parts! God damn it DE, please fix it

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4 minutes ago, boo425 said:

Yeah, it's best to chase Helminth until Mechs have been bug fixed and balanced. Right now they're a complete mess

I was quitte hyped for the mech and the heavy flamer for the glory od the emperor but they seen like a giant resource sink that cost to much doe little gain. 

Their HP sounds like a lot but as far as I've got their mods are weak compared to the warframe counterpart. Combine that with a giant hit box and reduced mobility , at the end of the day they will have lower durability than a warframe ( unless their second skill is as broken as it was in the quest on with point why botter with stats when you can spam invunerability ). Also looks like they don't habe inate vaccum because thats the hill DE choose to die on. So yeah until we have the mandatory giant boss that's only vulnerable to necro mech they are frankly not worth it.

I also expected than to be able to fly like that one does when ot assaults the heart of from in the quest. 

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From my experience so far, they are a great dps+survivability boost for low to mid level content but lacking at high level stuff. Then again it's a whole new system so I'm guessing in time we'll get introduced to stuff that allow use to make them viable.

No good traversal mechanic but hoping we'll eventually get some jet boosters to actually fly (I prefer not being able to fly since flying minimizes the terrain definition to nothing). They are a welcome change in pace to regular warframes for me since they have weight and force more deliberate movement than mindlessly bullet jumping around.

Having a semi-mobile weapons platform in open map is fun flavor-wise. Makes archguns more interesting to use as well. I'm somewhat cautiously hopeful about the expansion of this system

 

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Survivability-wise Mechs are in an odd spot. Mine is currently 23 (should be maxed but affinity bug has rolled me back 4 times now) and rocking 2k shield and 4k health but the moment you run out of energy you just absolutely shredded.

I've been running T2 Isolation vaults to try level mine and the infested just absolutely tear through your health if you run out of energy or don't have a form of heal with you.
That kind of stuff aside here are some notes on what can and can't heal Necromechs:

Can:

  • Blessing (Trinity)
  • Vome (Deimos landscape)
  • Rejuvenation (Aura)
  • Mending Dash (Vazarin

Can't but should:

  • Health orbs (really tho)
  • Wisp motes
  • Renewal
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1 hour ago, keikogi said:

Loom at their melee ( that can't be their plans )

I sure hope not. I fully expected Nechromechs to use Archwing Melee weapons for their melee attacks. Instead, what we got is, uh... Sort of a shove? I've found their melee to be just about not worth using, to say nothing of embarrassing. One hopes DE will improve on Necromechs, but uh... Well, Archwings and Railjack and Liches are still waiting in line for the same thing. I fear Necromechs will just be "another Archwing" in the long run. Because heaven forbid DE actually finish something they've started.

 

51 minutes ago, keikogi said:

Also looks like they don't habe inate vaccum because thats the hill DE choose to die on.

Yeah, I did notice that. I don't understand DE's resistance to universal vacuum. It's starting to feel like stubborn spite at this point.

 

3 hours ago, boo425 said:

Necromechs can use any Archgun with a Gravimag equipped but have severely reduced ammo regen (see the videos above).

Like it took the Imperator a literal minute to regen 300 rounds.

See, this I don't understand. Why are Archgins continually gimped like this? Remember when Archguns originally launched, and DE wanted us to have an enforced 10 minute cooldown on them even if we call them and send them back without firing? Even right NOW with the current version of Atmospheric Archgun balance, they're still inferior to regular weapons most of the time. Are you saying Necromech Archguns are even worse? That makes no sense. What the hell is the point of Nechromecs if they're going to be all-around worse than our Warframes?

Can I at least use the default Necromech weapon as an Archgun in my Heavy Weapon slot?

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1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Can I at least use the default Necromech weapon as an Archgun in my Heavy Weapon slot?

Yes, the Mausolon is an Archgun which comes with a Gravimag installed by default so it has that goin for it.

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24 minutes ago, boo425 said:

Survivability-wise Mechs are in an odd spot. Mine is currently 23 (should be maxed but affinity bug has rolled me back 4 times now) and rocking 2k shield and 4k health but the moment you run out of energy you just absolutely shredded.

Jusr theory crafting but necro mechs are fragile. As I´ve stated before good base bad mods. Also they have giant hitboxes and can´t really mitigate damage through parkour (I mean the most common type of damage outside off deimos is projectiles). Since you have one try it during the profit taker (I think it is the best stress test for taking a lot of random BS).

28 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

sure hope not. I fully expected Nechromechs to use Archwing Melee weapons for their melee attacks. Instead, what we got is, uh... Sort of a shove? I've found their melee to be just about not worth using, to say nothing of embarrassing. One hopes DE will improve on Necromechs, but uh... Well, Archwings and Railjack and Liches are still waiting in line for the same thing. I fear Necromechs will just be "another Archwing" in the long run. Because heaven forbid DE actually finish something they've started.

speaking of AW, after I was hopping we could use the mech flying form ( the one we meet on the mission enters the hearrt by shapeshifiting into some kind of jet, tought ours could do the same ).  I think the plan is to allow us to do that ( since we could see a necro using a veritrux on the relay thing ) but I hink DE did not finish the stances in time. About they being another AW. 4:50 time is the moment I´m refering. 

 

34 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yeah, I did notice that. I don't understand DE's resistance to universal vacuum. It's starting to feel like stubborn spite at this point.

DE stumborness and there a mod for that are probably the wrost aspects off DE. The lack of foresight also sucks because for ecample why XAku even deals void daamge, it kinda off makes Void damage a semi open system and if they buff Void for operators, well all warframe will go bonkers because everyone can use void damage now. THe funny thinmg is Zaku  deal void damage , that´s not void damage.

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14 minutes ago, keikogi said:

speaking of AW, after I was hopping we could use the mech flying form ( the one we meet on the mission enters the hearrt by shapeshifiting into some kind of jet, tought ours could do the same ).  I think the plan is to allow us to do that ( since we could see a necro using a veritrux on the relay thing ) but I hink DE did not finish the stances in time. About they being another AW. 4:50 time is the moment I´m refering. 

And that's the problem - it's unfinished, like most everything in this god damn game. We're reaching Star Citizen levels of under-delivered promises. See, I don't necessarily agree with the video. Yes, people overwhelmingly dislike Archwings and Railjack and Operators and such... But I'd argue that the problem there is that all of those systems are S#&$. After so many years, we still have four Archwings, a small handful of weapons of which maybe two or three are worth using and a small handful of quite literally interchangeable melee weapons. Operators are locked behind one of the worst grinds in the game and offer very little actual gameplay anyway. Railjack COULD have been awesome, but it has ONE mission type against ONE enemy type. All of these systems could have been better-received if they weren't completely abandoned immediately upon release.

Enter Necromechs. It's a toy that's only usable on the three open-world maps, is less powerful than our preexisting Warframes, is locked behind a massive grind and isn't even finished. There's so much potential in these things. Imagine integrating them into Railjack, where players launch themselves out of the Catapult with them and drop onto the enemy ship piloting a frikkin' Dreadnought, shooting the place up and blowing up the reactor before ejecting and teleporting back. You could - if we ever got surface-level Railjack missions - drop from Orbit in your Necromech and crash down onto a ground instance. Titanfall, eat your heart out.

But nope! All we have to show for it is dreams and blue balls, because what we got is a hollow shell of content that could be. And sure, I hope they get finished and turned into something fun and flexible. If they do, however, well... That'll be a first for this game.

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Well I figured I'd leave this tidbit/tech here given the topic of heavy weapons after the implementation of the Mech which well... I found the tech with the Mausolon so extremely large stretches aside;

There is now a method to skip the recoil animation for charged heavy weapons
→This works with the Larkspur, Corvas, Velocitus and the Mausolon charged shot

When you fire a charged shot - you just simply double jump or alternatively; fire in the second half of the bullet jump animation. If done correctly the recoil animation just simply doesn't happen which for the Mausolon in particular is huge because you get stunned for 2, maybe 2.5 seconds when using the alt fire in heavy weapon form.

I only did the Velocitus demo as a proof of concept it works with all charged weapons since I found it on the Mausolon.

Yep.

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I personally had a new issue with the Necromech itself

I was in the middle of the 82 token reward for demos mission, summoned the necromech with umbra out and everything was fine, (umbral acctually follows you so its quite nice to not glitch out in case of death in mech), our third objective took us to defend the grinner about 500m away, (this was at the 8/31/2020/4:40pm central standerd time, rotation of bounties) it was a grinner kill more then they do. I jumped out of the mech, took out my arcwing and got to the kill point and resummoned the mech. Within 5 seconds of hopping in, i found a problem...I had no gun. It was the gun you get with the mech, and for some reason, both of my hands were empty and all i could do was use abilities and punch things. Umbral worked fine and when i let the mech get destroyed and resummoned, it remained gunless

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