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Rahn vs raplak vs klamora prism + scaffold and school


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Hi, first I had the 277 amp but I read that the shwaak was slow on stacking and was unefficient to use. I know about the x77 meta so I use both propa and certus. At the moment I'm using the rahn prism just because its fully automatic and I read somewhere that it is the safest prism to use to avoid accidentally blowing away your void strike/whisps. On the other hand I read and heard that the raplak prism is best because of the crits. The klamora seems unefficient because you need to stand right under the eidolon so thats out of my question.

So question now is which prism to use? And is it worth it?

Edited by Grayfox1990
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Raplak is used as a backup shot for when propa doesnt crit, which assuming you have certus brace and virtuous shadow buff will happen once every 5 shots on average.

Raplak is a single shot prism with no projectile travel time and higher crit rate than propa. Compared to a propa crit, a raplak crit does about half the damage, all other things being equal.

I wouldnt use Rahn in eidolon hunts for any reason. It does low base damage per VS stack consumed so you will never fire it at eidolon shields. It consumes 3 VS stacks per volley so the only reason to ever shoot it is into the ground to dump your remaining stacks. But if dump speed is something you care about, then Lega and Klamora both dump VS faster. Lega can dump 8 stacks near instantly, which I have accidentally done with x70 VS. Avoid automatic fire, volley or channeling prisms if you are prone to fat fingering hotkeys.

If using Shraksun scaffold you dont need a 90%+ crit chance, instant follow up shot because shraksun is all of those things. If you dont one shot with shraksun, you just shoot shraksun again. If you dont one shot with propa, sometimes its just faster to just follow up with raplak instead.

 

Edited by Lolacrayola
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25 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Raplak is used as a backup shot for when propa doesnt crit, which assuming you have certus brace and virtuous shadow buff will happen once every 5 shots on average.

Raplak is a single shot prism with no projectile travel time and higher crit rate than propa. Compared to a propa crit, a raplak crit does about half the damage, all other things being equal.

I wouldnt use Rahn in eidolon hunts for any reason. It does low base damage per VS stack consumed so you will never fire it at eidolon shields. It consumes 3 VS stacks per volley so the only reason to ever shoot it is into the ground to dump your remaining stacks. But if dump speed is something you care about, then Lega and Klamora both dump VS faster. Lega can dump 8 stacks near instantly, which I have accidentally done with x70 VS. Avoid automatic fire, volley or channeling prisms if you are prone to fat fingering hotkeys.

If using Shraksun scaffold you dont need a 90%+ crit chance, instant follow up shot because shraksun is all of those things. If you dont one shot with shraksun, you just shoot shraksun again. If you dont one shot with propa, sometimes its just faster to just follow up with raplak instead.

 

Hm I see, I have virtuos strike btw, I use this so... Can I use raplak with this?

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Uhh sure. If anything, you will probably use it more than you need to because your half your propa shots on average won't crit without virtuos shadow buff. Propa non-crits are really sad.

But really, if you want to use propa, just use virtuos shadow and get used to head dashing or you will waste a lot of VS.

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8 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Uhh sure. If anything, you will probably use it more than you need to because your half your propa shots on average won't crit without virtuos shadow buff. Propa non-crits are really sad.

But really, if you want to use propa, just use virtuos shadow and get used to head dashing or you will waste a lot of VS.

What scaffold to use with virtuos strike then? The shrakson?

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Probably shraksun. It has better ammo economy than propa, there is no need to pre fire, there is less delay between shots when repeat firing and it hits up to 5 times per shot, each of which can crit. The odds of the primary impact, all of the secondary impacts and the explosion not critting is very low. You will probably get more value from virtuos strike's crit damage buff because of the way shraksun multi hits. It inherently has higher crit rate than propa. But I would still use virtuos shadow with shraksun anyway.

Amp crits matter a lot because of the way the math works. The base damage range of amp scaffolds vs eidolon shields is enormous. Shraksun's explosion crits for 801 and non crits for 261. Shraksun's primary impact crits for 561 and non crits for 201 (iirc). Propa's explosion crits for 1459 damage and non-crits for 359.

Amp non-crits also do not get damage buffed by volt shield since it confers a 2x crit damage multiplier. I went over the propa math in another thread recently but assuming 6x void strike, unairu wisp buff and volt shield then:

Propa crit = 1459 x 6 x 2 x 2 = 35,016 damage

Propa non-crit = 359 x 6 x 2 = 4308 damage

You want to maximise your chance to crit on every shot because the numbers are so terrible if you don't crit. Bear in mind that a hydrolyst's half shield is 26,000 hp. So you only need 4.5x VS with propa to completely one shot the shield with no assistance from teammates, but only if you crit. 

Edited by Lolacrayola
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1 hour ago, Lolacrayola said:

Probably shraksun. It has better ammo economy than propa, there is no need to pre fire, there is less delay between shots when repeat firing and it hits up to 5 times per shot, each of which can crit. The odds of the primary impact, all of the secondary impacts and the explosion not critting is very low. You will probably get more value from virtuos strike's crit damage buff because of the way shraksun multi hits. It inherently has higher crit rate than propa. But I would still use virtuos shadow with shraksun anyway.

Amp crits matter a lot because of the way the math works. The base damage range of amp scaffolds vs eidolon shields is enormous. Shraksun's explosion crits for 801 and non crits for 261. Shraksun's primary impact crits for 561 and non crits for 201 (iirc). Propa's explosion crits for 1459 damage and non-crits for 359.

Amp non-crits also do not get damage buffed by volt shield since it confers a 2x crit damage multiplier. I went over the propa math in another thread recently but assuming 6x void strike, unairu wisp buff and volt shield then:

Propa crit = 1459 x 6 x 2 x 2 = 35,016 damage

Propa non-crit = 359 x 6 x 2 = 4308 damage

You want to maximise your chance to crit on every shot because the numbers are so terrible if you don't crit. Bear in mind that a hydrolyst's half shield is 26,000 hp. So you only need 4.5x VS with propa to completely one shot the shield with no assistance from teammates, but only if you crit. 

So the way to go is getting used to headdashing (which is hard to pull off because for some reason, the first time it works but the second time doesn't, I dash 2 times to the front...) with raplak, virtuos shadow and propa and certus?

Otherwise the raplak, shraksun with virtous strike and certus brace? But this one isn't as efficient as the other one right?

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Well... For eidolons specifically the prism used to be irrelevant.... Until one of the updates Broke Virtuos Shadow...

Until this is fixed Shwaark Prism is actually a good option because firing it once will only consume a single Void Strike Charge and yet because it's a Shotgun... Each individual Projectile Rolls for a Chance to Proc Virtuos Shadow.

 

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On 2020-08-28 at 6:35 PM, Lolacrayola said:

 

Thanks for explaining the use case in detail.

And I heard that head-dashing was broken? It it fully bugged, or just harder to pull off? As I guess that'd be a case for a single-shot prism to trigger it.

Edited by TheArcSet
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4 hours ago, TheArcSet said:

And I head that head-dashing was broken? It it fully bugged, or just harder to pull off? As I guess that's be a case for a single-shot prism to trigger it.

Not that I'm aware of. As of yesterday it seems to work the same way it always has. Virtuos shadow has a 40% chance to proc 1.6x crit chance. It is not a guaranteed proc, so sometimes you will get unlucky and spam dash on the head 4 or 5 times and not proc it. Its just the way it is.

The eidolon's head hitbox is much larger than the visual model indicates. It is easier to hit it from sides because it is longer than it is tall or wide but you can dash the air above the head and still hit. You can also dash into its "neck" and get stuck under its "chin" where you can spam dash at point blank range, but that requires you to have a good angle. At certain terrain elevations and when the eidolon is kneeling, you can still dash into the ground to proc virtuos shadow.

You have to spam void dash by dashing forwards and backwards and repeating it until you get to 60% cc buff icon.

Edited by Lolacrayola
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6 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Well... For eidolons specifically the prism used to be irrelevant.... Until one of the updates Broke Virtuos Shadow...

Until this is fixed Shwaark Prism is actually a good option because firing it once will only consume a single Void Strike Charge and yet because it's a Shotgun... Each individual Projectile Rolls for a Chance to Proc Virtuos Shadow.

 

No, the prism is not irrelevant at all. Raplak is the best prism you can use and here is why:

Raplak has the highest crit chance (tied with klamora) of all the amp parts and can reach 92.8% cc with shadow and 7 brace. This means that once you have enough VS to 1 shot the shields with raplak on a crit it is very good because it will basically always crit. Propa only has an 80% cc with shadow and 7 brace meaning there is still a 20% chance it won't crit. Which might not seem big but you can really notice it during hunts.

The second reason is raplak is use to cover for when propa doesn't crit because it’s hitscan and has such a high cc, if propa doesn't crit you can quickly fire a couple raplak and still take the shield down relatively fast.

The final reason is that on the first terry shields or when low VS, raplak and propa are used in conjunction with one another to get 2 instances of damage in a single moment. You do this by shooting propa early so it explodes right as shields go up and shoot raplak in that same moment meaning you need far less VS for instant shield takedowns

You shouldn't be using an amp to proc shadow anyway so Shwaak isn't doing anything

Edited by elevate
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, elevate said:

No, the prism is not irrelevant at all. Raplak is the best prism you can use and here is why:

Raplak has the highest crit chance (tied with klamora) of all the amp parts and can reach 92.8% cc with shadow and 7 brace. This means that once you have enough VS to 1 shot the shields with raplak on a crit it is very good because it will basically always crit. Propa only has an 80% cc with shadow and 7 brace meaning there is still a 20% chance it won't crit. Which might not seem big but you can really notice it during hunts.

The second reason is raplak is use to cover for when propa doesn't crit because it’s hitscan and has such a high cc, if propa doesn't crit you can quickly fire a couple raplak and still take the shield down relatively fast.

The final reason is that on the first terry shields or when low VS, raplak and propa are used in conjunction with one another to get 2 instances of damage in a single moment. You do this by shooting propa early so it explodes right as shields go up and shoot raplak in that same moment meaning you need far less VS for instant shield takedowns

You shouldn't be using an amp to proc shadow anyway so Shwaak isn't doing anything

I see. Thank you. Raplak is the ultimate prism then. Klamora is tied with the raplak as you say but isn't very efficient to use since you need to stand right under the eidolons. With raplak you can stay at a safe distance. Also... Volt need to place the shield also right under the eidolons. And not every voltplayer knows this...

7 hours ago, Lolacrayola said:

Not that I'm aware of. As of yesterday it seems to work the same way it always has. Virtuos shadow has a 40% chance to proc 1.6x crit chance. It is not a guaranteed proc, so sometimes you will get unlucky and spam dash on the head 4 or 5 times and not proc it. Its just the way it is.

The eidolon's head hitbox is much larger than the visual model indicates. It is easier to hit it from sides because it is longer than it is tall or wide but you can dash the air above the head and still hit. You can also dash into its "neck" and get stuck under its "chin" where you can spam dash at point blank range, but that requires you to have a good angle. At certain terrain elevations and when the eidolon is kneeling, you can still dash into the ground to proc virtuos shadow.

You have to spam void dash by dashing forwards and backwards and repeating it until you get to 60% cc buff icon.

And about the scaffolds, so 177 with virtous shadow and 127 with virtous strike if virtous shadow isn't working for me? Like I said, for me headdashing is hard to pull off. But... if this is better then Virtous strike, then I'll try to do my best. I assume that every volt/harrow player does this, yes?

Lastly, also... I see many headdashers leaving a trail. Is this from your madurai tree? Do I need to max that as well as the other one where you deal more dmg if you dash through enemies? And do you need to headdash with UW as well? Or does that take too long to get those wisps/does this deal less dmg?

Edited by Grayfox1990
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2 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

I see. Thank you. Raplak is the ultimate prism then. Klamora is tied with the raplak as you say but isn't very efficient to use since you need to stand right under the eidolons. With raplak you can stay at a safe distance. Also... Volt need to place the shield also right under the eidolons. And not every voltplayer knows this...

And about the scaffolds, so 177 with virtous shadow and 127 with virtous strike if virtous shadow isn't working for me? Like I said, for me headdashing is hard to pull off. But... if this is better then Virtous strike, then I'll try to do my best. I assume that every volt/harrow player does this, yes?

Lastly, also... I see many headdashers leaving a trail. Is this from your madurai tree? Do I need to max that as well as the other one where you deal more dmg if you dash through enemies? And do you need to headdash with UW as well? Or does that take too long to get those wisps/does this deal less dmg?

No klamora is not tied with raplak. I only said they were tied for highest CC. Klamora is horrible compared to raplak and brings absolutely nothing when playing VS as the instant you even try to use it all your VS stacks are gone.

Just go into say the Simulacrum and practice dashing back and forth. You only need to press space to go forward and space + s to go back while in void mode. So it should look like this. Hold Ctrl (for void mode) + space then s + space and you just repeat that.

The trail is called blazing dash in the madurai tree and is only helpful for killing the voms as it doesn't use VS stacks. The UW user should not be trying to proc shadow

Edited by elevate
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43 minutes ago, elevate said:

No klamora is not tied with raplak. I only said they were tied for highest CC. Klamora is horrible compared to raplak and brings absolutely nothing when playing VS as the instant you even try to use it all your VS stacks are gone.

Just go into say the Simulacrum and practice dashing back and forth. You only need to press space to go forward and space + s to go back while in void mode. So it should look like this. Hold Ctrl (for void mode) + space then s + space and you just repeat that.

The trail is called blazing dash in the madurai tree and is only helpful for killing the voms as it doesn't use VS stacks. The UW user should not be trying to proc shadow

I see. Yea the klamora is indeed horrible, I don't understand why people are using it as I said earlier, you need to stand right under the eidolon and accidentally could lose all your VS stacks at once...

Thank you so much man. I did it wrong already, I thought you needed W+space to dash forward and S+space to go backwards. I'll keep this tip of yours in mind.

Then it would make sense to use amp 127 with virtous strike as your amp if you go UW instead of madurai. I know what to do.

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Raplak is absolutely not the ultimate prism. Its just pairs well with Propa scaffold for eidolon hunting because it offers a backup firing option that doesn't suffer from Propa's weaknesses - poor ammo economy, projectile travel time and 1/5th of your shots not critting.

If using Shraksun scaffold, you don't care about the prism and will never shoot it, except to dump VS stacks. All prisms deal much lower damage than the crit scaffolds (Shraksun and Propa).

About range. You need to be close to the eidolon anyway because not only does Shraksun and Propa have a maximum range beyond which you will miss entirely, they also deal explosion damage, which has linear falloff from the point of impact. For Shraksun, you ideally want to shoot point blank, provided the Volt shield is positioned to allow you to do this. You don't see many Volts doing heel shields these days (since its all about the Propa). Either way, you need to be less than 10m from the eidolon's shield hitbox, so the primary impact hits.

For Propa, you want to be a little bit further away than Shraksun but still no more than 15m. And 15m is really pushing it because that is the outer edge of the explosion radius and you will suffer big falloff damage, even if it does hit.

Both scaffolds now self stagger if you are inside their explosion radius. Shraksun explosion radius is 8m and Propa's is about 15m. You need a volt shield between you and the explosion or you will knock yourself down.

4 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

And about the scaffolds, so 177 with virtous shadow and 127 with virtous strike if virtous shadow isn't working for me? Like I said, for me headdashing is hard to pull off. But... if this is better then Virtous strike, then I'll try to do my best. I assume that every volt/harrow player does this, yes?

All Madurai void strike players should do it to maximise amp crit chance. As elevate said, the Unairu DPS player doesn't do this because they are shooting the eidolon's armour with their gun, not the shield with their amp.

In practice? Do all VS pug players do it? Hell no. In 5x3s you get a lot of people who don't head dash. For the most part, its not the end of the world. You have 3 VS players shooting at the same time. As long as 1 of you crits it doesn't matter.

Below 5x3, I would say head dashing is rare to non existent, along with a bunch of other time management tricks like lake pre-shields and fast charging. Nevertheless, you should learn it because its good practice. Also, if you are playing in 1x3 to 3x3, it is not a guarantee that the other players will have Void Strike or Unairu Wisp. In 1x3s and 2x3s you may be the only void strike player, so its up to you to hard carry on shields.

4 hours ago, Grayfox1990 said:

Lastly, also... I see many headdashers leaving a trail. Is this from your madurai tree? Do I need to max that as well as the other one where you deal more dmg if you dash through enemies?

As elevate said, the fire trails = Madurai Blazing/Meteoric Dash. It is useful for VS players to kill vomvalysts and charge lures without spending VS charges. 

In terms of priority? Maxing Void Strike is the number one priority. After that, I would say, Inner Gaze, Eternal Gaze then unlock Void Flow, Enduring Tides and Mind Sprint waybounds so you can stay in void mode for ages without using a tonne of energy pads, not have your operator die constantly to chip damage and be able to use your void dash for mobility. Then get Blazing/Meteoric Dash, then the other waybounds.

Edited by Lolacrayola
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One more thing. Since you spend so much time crouched in operator mode, use the crouch toggle key instead of hold to crouch. Head dashing is way easier if you toggle crouch on, since you only need to press space, s + space.

Edited by Lolacrayola
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40 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Raplak is absolutely not the ultimate prism. Its just pairs well with Propa scaffold for eidolon hunting because it offers a backup firing option that doesn't suffer from Propa's weaknesses - poor ammo economy, projectile travel time and 1/5th of your shots not critting.

There are alot more uses than that, see my previous post. I would still definitely say raplak is the best prism choice for VSing.

 

40 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Both scaffolds now self stagger if you are inside their explosion radius. Shraksun explosion radius is 8m and Propa's is about 15m. You need an electric shield between you and the explosion or you will knock yourself down.

You can also go back into void mode or swap back into your frame and you won't take knockback 

Edited by elevate
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1 hour ago, Grayfox1990 said:

I see. Yea the klamora is indeed horrible, I don't understand why people are using it as I said earlier, you need to stand right under the eidolon and accidentally could lose all your VS stacks at once...

Thank you so much man. I did it wrong already, I thought you needed W+space to dash forward and S+space to go backwards. I'll keep this tip of yours in mind.

Then it would make sense to use amp 127 with virtous strike as your amp if you go UW instead of madurai. I know what to do.

For the unairu wisp user who is the dps and shoots the synovias the amp really doesn't matter as they aren't shooting the shields but if you really want to min-max, the 774 or 777 is best. Klamora is really nice for killing voms and the 4 brace anspatha provides additional operator and amp energy regen which is nice Qol

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-08-29 at 7:34 PM, elevate said:

For the unairu wisp user who is the dps and shoots the synovias the amp really doesn't matter as they aren't shooting the shields but if you really want to min-max, the 774 or 777 is best. Klamora is really nice for killing voms and the 4 brace anspatha provides additional operator and amp energy regen which is nice Qol

Update: I now have both the 127 with virtous strike and the 177 with virtous shadow. Both were run with madurai's void strike and chroma since my volt isn't build correctly but I'll leave that for another post. This is why I couldn't oneshot the shields probably.

conclusion: In both cases, raplak is indeed the best prism for eidolonhunting. I'm also going to use the 127 for UW chroma. It even does a good job at normal missions.

Scaffolds: For me, the 127 melted the shields down faster then the 177. As I thought, headdashing is really challenging and hard to pull off correctly. It worked 3 times for me so far. The eidolons are moving sometimes and I didn't use volt so. This is even more challenging since you need to place the shields correctly. After all, the propa doesn't have a big range. Anyway, since I rarely do solo eidolonhunting, I'm gonna stick with the 127, for now, and whenever I see the chance, practice the 177 with the headdashing with volt.

Edited by Grayfox1990
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