23 hour wait for subsume seems pointless. Help me understand.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

I should start saying that I'm not a big hater. I like the new update, but not this particular timer. I just subsumed a mirage, probably just in time to see eclipse get nerfed down to 100% or lower. I already spent TIME farming all these resources. I spent TIME farming and building warframes. I spent TIME trying to hunt those god forsaken birds on deimos. And now I have to wait a full day for no apparent reason. I can't even pay to skip it. If it doesn't serve to help DE or myself... Then why is there a full day's timer? Does DE feel responsible for managing my time for me? Seems like an inappropriate effort. If there's some logic to this, I'd love to be enlightened about it. 

[GnarlsDarkley]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

Then why is there a full day's timer?

Imagine there would be none. You were done subsuming all frames by tomorrow and maybe rant for "nothing else to do in this dead game!!!11" 

... Sort of

[BoomyGordo]

take a look at any of the other progression wait walls and ask the same question. Why are their foundry building times? why is there a daily standing cap? Why does hatching a kubro take so long?

[Dhrekr]

If DE releases something without timer, people max it within the first day and then come to the forums to say that they are bored.

If DE releases something with timer, people come to the forums to say they are impatient.

 

And that is not to say that DE has a reason to put these timers. But it's a "one option is bad, the other option is bad" situation for DE. They picked the option that is bad and not the option that is bad. I mean... surprise.

[Morthal]

23 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Imagine there would be none. You were done subsuming all frames by tomorrow and maybe rant for "nothing else to do in this dead game!!!11" 

... Sort of

Waiting. Timers. That isn't content.
My microwave timer provides more entertainment value and it does so while heating my broccoli.

[Morthal]

29 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

If DE releases something without timer, people max it within the first day and then come to the forums to say that they are bored.

If DE releases something with timer, people come to the forums to say they are impatient.

 

And that is not to say that DE has a reason to put these timers. But it's a "one option is bad, the other option is bad" situation for DE. They picked the option that is bad and not the option that is bad. I mean... surprise.

That's utter BS and you know it. You're just creating conflict were it doesn't exist, in order to justify your defense of DE's mobile game approach to monetization. Or maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions here 🤔
Nah, timegates of 24 hours don't make sense in that case because you're telling your player base not to play, which creates opportunity for plat exchange in lieu of timer. That's the only outcome that makes sense here( prove me wrong) and the practice is disgustingly overused. 
Apologies in regards to my irritation on this subject, I'm simply tired of the bickering that DE causes between what should be a FUN shared experience among gamers. Edit: Literally when I was a kid the only argument about content was who got to be player 1.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

Does DE feel responsible for managing my time for me?

Pretty much. 

It's surprising to me it can't be circumvented with plat though.

[AltheusVI]

Timegates extending play time, DE have previously had people burning through updates in a few days and then complaining of content drought.

The way I deal with it is finding multiple things to do while waiting for the timegate.

[Kashtan]

They put this timer in hopes of slowing down your progression in ranks with the Helmith. After you rankup enough (Which you can do by simply feeding the wall a lot, infusing abilities, removing them and repeat) you unlock 20 subsume slots which let's be honest are more than enough to subsume all the frames that interest you and eventually remove the limit entirely. After that I don't really see a reason why the timer is still there.

[Steel_Rook]

5 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Imagine there would be none. You were done subsuming all frames by tomorrow and maybe rant for "nothing else to do in this dead game!!!11" 

... Sort of

Very "sort of," in that you assume too much. For one thing, making players sit on their hands waiting doesn't really stop the "nothing to do" complaints because - and this is important - waiting is not "something to do." We don't "do" waiting. We log off and go to bed. Waiting is not gameplay. Secondly, you're kind of missing the point of new content, I think. This seems to be a common misconception in Warframe, but the point of rewards isn't to EARN them, but rather to HAVE them. I'll give you an example:

I want a Necromech. Why do you suppose that is? Do you suppose I feel some abstract desire to attain a difficult-to-attain reward that I'm then going to shelf and start asking for the next one like a hungry chick? Because that's not the case. I want a Necromech so that I can USE the Necromech, so that I can stomp-stomp-stomp my way around the open world, so I can headbutt my enemies, so I can yell "I'm the Juggernaut, *@##$!" The longer you keep me from having my Necromech, the more I'm going to complain about the lack of content for one simple reason - I'm being prevented from EXPERIENCING said content.

Content drought exists when I have nothing TO DO, even if I have plenty of crap I don't care about to earn. Artificial time gates and grind walls don't offer more gameplay. They keep us from engaging with gameplay in order to artificially inflate the sense engaging with the game, even if what we're doing most of the time isn't actually engaging.

[selig_fay]

6 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Imagine there would be none. You were done subsuming all frames by tomorrow and maybe rant for "nothing else to do in this dead game!!!11"

... Sort of

Imagine that I have already farmed the day's reputation today and put subsume and I have nothing to do in this game. No, there are things I could do, but I can't, because the limits are exhausted and there's no point in me sitting in the game.

I'm not saying you can't run for meme, but the fact that time limits make me play is not. I can go in, start production, and exit. I don't think it's a game.

[DrivaMain]

39 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Artificial time gates and grind walls don't offer more gameplay.

While it doesn’t offer gameplay. It does give us a reason to come back to the game at a later time. Warframe is a game that is played on short bursts in a period of time. Time gates are there to keep it that way and keep the daily logins stable. HoD at best only offers around 10-20 hours of content without the time gates. 
 

Could you imagine Warframe without time gates? Daily player count would plummet between content drops because players can just finish it in one day and log off until the next update. Low numbers also hurt the game’s publicity because warframe players and non players will say “It’s dead Jim”. It is a necessary evil.

[Tesseract7777]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

I should start saying that I'm not a big hater. I like the new update, but not this particular timer. I just subsumed a mirage, probably just in time to see eclipse get nerfed down to 100% or lower. I already spent TIME farming all these resources. I spent TIME farming and building warframes. I spent TIME trying to hunt those god forsaken birds on deimos. And now I have to wait a full day for no apparent reason. I can't even pay to skip it. If it doesn't serve to help DE or myself... Then why is there a full day's timer? Does DE feel responsible for managing my time for me? Seems like an inappropriate effort. If there's some logic to this, I'd love to be enlightened about it. 

The fact they don't want plat for this tells me there is another reason... they haven't stated it so I can only speculate. 

My best guess is they don't want the players with all the vast resources to literally leap from zero frames subsumed to 44 in one day while the average player is still finishing up their last syndicate rank and waiting for it to build, and then toss the first in out of the few they had ready to go shortly after release. 

They don't want you to rush ahead of all the more casual players so fast and so hard that everyone is left in your dust. I could be wrong though. Just speculating. They haven't given a reason. 

[Steel_Rook]

44 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Could you imagine Warframe without time gates? Daily player count would plummet between content drops because players can just finish it in one day and log off until the next update. Low numbers also hurt the game’s publicity because warframe players and non players will say “It’s dead Jim”. It is a necessary evil.

You do realise, I hope, that this right here is a MASSIVE indictment of Warframe's quality as a game. "If not for the artificial time sinks, players just wouldn't keep coming back to play this game." That's not the making of a good game, if it has to manipulate people into coming back. It tells me - and I don't know if you meant it that way - that Warframe itself has no compelling selling points. It has nothing that we WANT to keep coming back for, only things that we HAVE to keep coming back for, because Warframe has trained us to see it as a job rather than entertainment.

I recently played a game called Carrion. I replayed it several times beginning to end. It offered no rewards, it offered no time gates, it offered very limited progression. Yet I kept coming back, day after day, for about a week. Do you know why? Because it was and is a fun game. I've been logging into Remnant: From the Ashes just about every day since the latest DLC came out a couple of weeks ago. Why? Because it's a fun game. I haven't even been taking part in the new progression system - too busy playing with a friend who bought it on discount.

Yet in order to do the same for Warframe, "it's a fun game" is apparently not enough. Why? Because it's NOT a fun game? That's the only conclusion I can draw here. If the game were intrinsically fun enough that I'd want to keep playing it, it wouldn't need to keep jerking me around with timers and grindwalls Skinner box bullS#&$. But it does. I've often told people this - imagine you have literally everything that can ever be earned in the game - all the items, all the cosmetics, all the achievements, everything. Would you still play it? Me personally - I would, because there are still quite a few things in Warframe that I genuinely enjoy. Defection, Assault, Spy, Railjack (in theory, if it had more than one mission) and lately even playing the Shawzin. I'll keep you posted, but Necromechs might turn out to be another big reason along the same lines.

If a game can't keep people coming back with the quality of its experience, then that's a failure of game design as far as I'm concerned. "Live Service progression" can only serve to paper over that.

[Hardwood]

Things have timers in order to get you to log in tomorrow and then the day after. This is why you have login rewards and rep caps, the entire system is designed to get you to keep logging in and keeping finding reasons to spend money.

If anything the oversight is not letting people rush consumes for 40 plat.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

7 hours ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

take a look at any of the other progression wait walls and ask the same question. Why are their foundry building times? why is there a daily standing cap? Why does hatching a kubro take so long?

You can skip almost every other build time with plat. I don't know why DE seems to want accessing Helminth to be as painful as possible. They've basically ensured that once I finally get Helminth up and running, I'm not touching Deimos for a very, very, very long time.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

You do realise, I hope, that this right here is a MASSIVE indictment of Warframe's quality as a game.

Indictment, sure, absolutely.  But all caps MASSIVE indictment of Warframe? I wish it was, in a way.  AFAIC, it's just a standard dirty little industry trick that's part of larger strategies to keep players playing and paying. 

And personally, I really can't call it a massive indictment of quality when--three years in now, for me--I'm still deeply engaged with the game, warts and all.

[Skaleek]

Dude you waited this long. Wait another day, its not gonna kill you. It doesnt make you grind more or spend any more time getting what you want. Its how DE monetizes and I for one take zero issue with it. I can wait 3 days, 10 days.. Doesnt matter as long as its not grinding ingame at a 0.0001% chance to get the thing i want. Then I'm wasting my time instead of doing something else.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

10 hours ago, Morthal said:

Waiting. Timers. That isn't content.
My microwave timer provides more entertainment value and it does so while heating my broccoli.

So why don't you go watch the microwave, and enjoy yourself instead? 

[Dhrekr]

10 hours ago, Morthal said:

Nah, timegates of 24 hours don't make sense in that case because you're telling your player base not to play, which creates opportunity for plat exchange in lieu of timer. That's the only outcome that makes sense here( prove me wrong) and the practice is disgustingly overused. 

I... don't agree because there is no "plat exchange" in this case. I mean, can you speed up Helminth? No?

DE is literally not creating any opportunity for plat exchange in lieu of timer. Your analysis of this situation is just... wrong. DE is creating a timer for the sake of creating a timer.

What does the timer achieve? Well, it achieves that players will have "something" to do for weeks - if only it is "log in and start subsuming another Warframe". I say, that is their goal. Players will have to login in order to subsume frames, and probably will go a couple of matches, and the game will have high player retention for a month or two, and DE will be happy. I say that was their goal.

Is it a defense of DE? Absolutely not. But let's not just go around pissing gasoline and screaming "disgusting overuse of predatory monetization" every time DE does something we don't approve of.

 

And, listen, I agree with you that predatory monetization is ghoulish and disgusting. But "there is no monetization happening here" is not a defense of DE if it happens to be true.

 

10 hours ago, Morthal said:

That's utter BS and you know it. You're just creating conflict were it doesn't exist, in order to justify your defense of DE's mobile game approach to monetization. Or maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions here 🤔

Well, as far as I am concerned, what you wrote is utter BS. But I am sure you hadn't realized it was.

As you had failed to realize that, at no point, was I defending DE. But the forums is filled with gasoline-pissers who think that "try to explain a decision" and "defend a decision" are the same activity.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

There are timers all throughout the game. It wasn't something that was sprung upon you with no notice.

Things take time to build. It's kind of a cool aspect of the game, like watching the foundry use the little lasers to craft stuff.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

18 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

And, listen, I agree with you that predatory monetization is ghoulish and disgusting. But "there is no monetization happening here" is not a defense of DE if it happens to be true.

It is way beyond that. There was no microtransaction in Deimos on launch. This caused a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the outer darkness. 

Some people were practically up in arms that they couldn't just pay to win, pretty much from the start. They complained about fishing, mining and conservation, even though both Daughter and Otak tokens could be had in return for the mountains of loot we were recovering from the Mother bounties. 

The only thing more ghoulish and disgusting than a predatory company sucking money out of hapless fools, is the people who would demand that the company add it so that they don't have to play and can just pay to win. 

 

[Redfeather75]

It would be interesting if first subsume takes 1 hour. Second subsume takes 2 hours. And every time the subsume process takes longer.

It is like researching weapon traits in elder scrolls online if anyone is familiar with crafting in that game. You get your first one for very little wait time, but if you want them all it takes a very long time.

[Morthal]

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So why don't you go watch the microwave, and enjoy yourself instead? 

lol yeah I do that every day, nothing special. Unlike logging into Warframe which is becoming a rare instance in the last few months. Most of my clan has left the game already, there's just too many other forms of entertainment out there, that better value our time.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

14 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

If DE releases something without timer, people max it within the first day and then come to the forums to say that they are bored.

Well I'm bored waiting. The time played isn't change, just broken up arbitrarily.