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Damage 2.0 And Melee, My Thoughts


Nagisawa
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So after watching the last Livestream and hearing the proposed idea for the triangular damage idea (the Armour Pierce, Impact and Shredding, which frankly are the three aspects of bullets), I sat back and wondered how melee weapons fit into this.

The issue I am running up against is armour piercing and blades and hammers.  With firearms it's true, AP rounds tend to go through targets, doing less damage than those shaped for impact, while shredding rounds like Dum-Dums, shotgun buckshot and other man stoppers, tend to flatten or break up on armour, but against meaty bits, makes wonder hamburger.  So for bullets, yeah, I can see this.

But melee, you want sharpness, you want to cut through the target, because even if the actual amount of shredding damage is minimal, having your head removed, or being chopped in half is usually pretty final in the grand scheme of things.

Bullets work on shock to kill their targets, more of the body you overload and cause to shut down, the better you do.  Melee is messier, because any hit you do will often remove or break something, and if enough goes missing or is in pieces then end of fight.  So against human targets, you want a sharp blade, and I think all blades should be closer to the armour pierce and shredding side of the damage trinity, but not at the expense of outright damage numbers.  Blunt objects like the Fragor or Bo, would lean more to the impact side, but still, that Hammer may not break the armour skin, but the shock waves from the hit will rattle and break bones, maybe even concuss the brain into literal jelly.

However, that's against most organic targets, what about Moa and other, potential and future, inorganics?  This is where it gets even trickier.  This is where melee tends to suffer.   After all cutting a leg off the Jackal isn't as crippling as removing the legs off an animal.  Which will require different calculations from the Damage trinity...

Thoughts?

 

TL;DR If you're not going to read this, go away.

 

Nagisawa of Clan Arisawa

Edited by Nagisawa
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My suggestion: Look at Monster Hunter! Melee weapons only come in 2 types: Impact and Cutting damage. You could actually add a stab/pierce/puncture/violent poking damage into it as well (which Monster Hunter just considers as Cutting).

 

They pretty much have all their bases covered:

 

Shredding = Cutting

Impact = Impact

Armor Pierce = Armor pierce

 

Honestly, what I was trying to get at by the Monster Hunter suggestion is that the weapons have different levels of sharpness that determine how often your weapon will bounce off from a blow to a certain body part, in addition to how much damage they can deal.

 

There needs to be a similar enough system with melee weapons in order to not only make melee more viable, but also so it can keep up with the firearms in damage potential for the risks of being face-to-face

Edited by Transmorphic_Wyvern
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DE's spreadsheet: 

 

They clearly have three individual categories defined for melee, each one having specific advantages as well as extra effects like bleed dots and debuffs. Also, they categorized enemies based on Shield, Armor, Flesh, Infested, Robotic, each having its own resistances and weaknesses. They were incredibly thorough in their design, here's hoping it works out!

Edited by chimp77
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I think it would be neat to equate piercing rounds to multi-hit for melee: right now multihit is a fixed number (for example 5 for galatine and orthos prime, 3 for most heavies and dual wields, 1 for most swords and daggers), but if in damage 2.0 any enemy in the swing is hit then there could be reduced damage the more enemies get caught in the swing, a blunter weapon does more base damage, but a sharper weapon loses less damage when it hits more enemies or something like that anyway.

 

But melee, you want sharpness, you want to cut through the target, because even if the actual amount of shredding damage is minimal, having your head removed, or being chopped in half is usually pretty final in the grand scheme of things.

I, for some reason, love the way you phrased that.

Edited by CubedOobleck
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1. Bullet damage and melee damage have separate properties

 

2, It's a game, adding RW physics or properties is literally irrelevant

 

3. Universal elemental combos effects, multipliers and dividers still apply to melee, so there's plenty of variety in attack type versus material type

Edited by -Kittens-
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1. Bullet damage and melee damage have separate properties

 

2, It's a game, adding RW physics or properties is literally irrelevant

 

3. Universal elemental combos effects, miltipliers and dividers still apply to melee, so there's plenty of variety in attack type versus material type

1. Hopefully

 

2. Not a total adoption, but some would help immersion immensely.

 

3. I hope so.

 

Nagisawa of Clan Arisawa

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Usually, the sharper the melee.. the better it is as a weapon....

 

But you are also using "real melee combat" examples but not having the facts. Melee = death by blood loss and not usually through dismemberment unless you are murdering and mutilating unarmed, untrained civilians. It's highly unlikely you will dismember someone in a real even fight.

 

However, Warframe is indeed a game with sci-fi armor and weapons and powers. So real world applications do not always apply to it. :p

Everything else seems logical.

----

Also, there is a detail about slashing damage applying bleeding in the rough draft of armor 2.0. You can google it "warframe armor 2.0", I found it on the 3 link(youtube video).

Edited by Stygi
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Piercing- Most bullets and arrows, probably daggers, too.

Slashing- Most melee bladed weapons, the Miter, probably Despair and Dread.

Impact- All blunt melee weapons (Bo, Fragor, Amphis, Furax, Kogake, Ankyros), Kestrel, maybe all Shotguns (pellets)

 

If they make it a triangle there might be weapons that are half piercing-half slashing (Despair/Dread?).

Maybe arrows and bolts will be half piercing-half impact to differentiate them from bullets?

 

Radiation- Basically everything from the Corpus Clantech tree (except the electrostick).

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