Nerfs to warframes

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

I understand some frames get a nerf when things didn't go as planned or some exploits like the basmu is found doing ridiculous damage. I jjst ask that the nerfs not be to the point where they are going from lvl 100 to level 5. 

If its a nerf based on damage and performance I would rather see a penalty/ radiant trigger instead.

For example, with all the new subsumed skills there are are bound to be many that come up with great ideas only to get punished for their efforts with a nerf. If instead Warframe spawned in a tough boss that either buffs enemies, has a unique skill or is just stronger like wolf the stalker, amalgams, juggernauts (again) or even Zealots. 

I rather have a challenge to than a nerf for making a great build. Just something yo consider, my friends and I used to love doing infested runs to bring out the juggernaut then it was removed for some reason. At least I never see it anymore.

 

What does the community think of this?

[Tyreaus]

I do think DE - and quite a few developers, all things considered - have a bad habit of touching too many knobs when adjusting some things. I do, also, think there is a place for specialized units to add some extra dynamics to missions. That's a solid +1.

That said, what specific nerf / nerfs are we talking about? We can't reasonably avoid nerfs all the time - leaving or, worse yet, building around outliers either leaves everything else in the dust or, over time, brings everything up to the outlier's level so that it's no different than a nerf - but not all nerfs are equally deserved. It's a bit hard to make much of a judgement call outside of general statements, like "the philosophy of avoiding nerfs at all costs doesn't work".

If you mean the Helminth nerfs specifically, I think there's a justification for the intent - the abilities they nerfed were likely going to be the top-dogs and, as stated, you don't really want to just let that be a new standard - but what they changed, in my view, didn't do anything. Most of the potential comes from combinations, not stats. Larva works well with Protea because of her turrets. 2m of range doesn't suddenly make it god-tier.

This leads to the question of: when most of the power comes from combinations, and stat changes make a minor difference, how do you even nerf it effectively? The answer is, unless you alter the fundamental behaviour of the ability, you can't. (As an aside: this is why I said in the past that directly lifting abilities from Warframes, rather than making new Helminth abilities thematically tied to Warframes and balanced for Helminth, leads to issues. Just look at Banish from Limbo: how was anything of his ever going to work well, especially on par with anything from Protea or Octavia?)

If you can't nerf it effectively, then the best (slash only) thing to do is to buff other parts. In this case, buffing other abilities would probably be just fine. A number of the abilities chosen needed a touch-up (and some of the ones not chosen could've been touched-up and picked instead, IMO). So not only is it pretty much the only way to bring those abilities roughly in line, since traditional stat-nerfing isn't an option, there is also a tangible benefit to the originating Warframes with that process. Trinity's Well of Life isn't half-bad now. Other abilities could've been improved, too.

So, yeah. They dropped the ball on that one. They missed out on improving underused abilities, for Warframes and Helminth alike, and elected nerfs that didn't really change a whole lot.

That's just my rant on that bit of the Helminth stuff. Maybe you're talking about something different? (Sorry if I vastly misunderstood)

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

9 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I do think DE - and quite a few developers, all things considered - have a bad habit of touching too many knobs when adjusting some things. I do, also, think there is a place for specialized units to add some extra dynamics to missions. That's a solid +1.

That said, what specific nerf / nerfs are we talking about? We can't reasonably avoid nerfs all the time - leaving or, worse yet, building around outliers either leaves everything else in the dust or, over time, brings everything up to the outlier's level so that it's no different than a nerf - but not all nerfs are equally deserved. It's a bit hard to make much of a judgement call outside of general statements, like "the philosophy of avoiding nerfs at all costs doesn't work".

If you mean the Helminth nerfs specifically, I think there's a justification for the intent - the abilities they nerfed were likely going to be the top-dogs and, as stated, you don't really want to just let that be a new standard - but what they changed, in my view, didn't do anything. Most of the potential comes from combinations, not stats. Larva works well with Protea because of her turrets. 2m of range doesn't suddenly make it god-tier.

This leads to the question of: when most of the power comes from combinations, and stat changes make a minor difference, how do you even nerf it effectively? The answer is, unless you alter the fundamental behaviour of the ability, you can't. (As an aside: this is why I said in the past that directly lifting abilities from Warframes, rather than making new Helminth abilities thematically tied to Warframes and balanced for Helminth, leads to issues. Just look at Banish from Limbo: how was anything of his ever going to work well, especially on par with anything from Protea or Octavia?)

If you can't nerf it effectively, then the best (slash only) thing to do is to buff other parts. In this case, buffing other abilities would probably be just fine. A number of the abilities chosen needed a touch-up (and some of the ones not chosen could've been touched-up and picked instead, IMO). So not only is it pretty much the only way to bring those abilities roughly in line, since traditional stat-nerfing isn't an option, there is also a tangible benefit to the originating Warframes with that process. Trinity's Well of Life isn't half-bad now. Other abilities could've been improved, too.

So, yeah. They dropped the ball on that one. They missed out on improving underused abilities, for Warframes and Helminth alike, and elected nerfs that didn't really change a whole lot.

That's just my rant on that bit of the Helminth stuff. Maybe you're talking about something different? (Sorry if I vastly misunderstood)

I was njst talking bout an alternative to constantly nerfing in general and using the new system as an example.

The  soulutiom could come as a boss that could temporarily nerf or become an opposing force.

Look at onslaught, you use an ability too much it gets blocked. Some of the corpus have a skill that blocks 1-2 of your abilities randomly. If its just about damage bring in a mini boss to level the playing field. 

As I said, i understand some fixes that are needed that result in an indirect nerf or what have you, but just because something is popular doesn't mean you make it not popular.

[Kaiune]

IMO Nerfs should only happen if something becomes so meta that usage is so much that it invalidates the rest of the game. Though even then Nerfs like the Xoris were more an indication that there is a problem getting quality rivens as you could still get more out of a good stat stick with a riven. For example Octavias Mallet is insane and can carry you through any level of game play. But even with that you dont see Octavia in every mission. Also the game is Co Op where you share in the loot, OP isnt really that big of a deal the only problem is you get some frames that are in that OK range that never see much play. But honestly Id rather see those frames get some love rather than pull the rest of the roster to their level. 

People who want more of a challenge or dislike playing with a certain frame or weapon can set up their own teams or run solo. If you want to make it even harder run some dragon keys. 

 

[bibmobello]

2 minutes ago, Kaiune said:

IMO Nerfs should only happen if something becomes so meta that usage is so much that it invalidates the rest of the game. Though even then Nerfs like the Xoris were more an indication that there is a problem getting quality rivens as you could still get more out of a good stat stick with a riven. For example Octavias Mallet is insane and can carry you through any level of game play. But even with that you dont see Octavia in every mission. Also the game is Co Op where you share in the loot, OP isnt really that big of a deal the only problem is you get some frames that are in that OK range that never see much play. But honestly Id rather see those frames get some love rather than pull the rest of the roster to their level. 

People who want more of a challenge or dislike playing with a certain frame or weapon can set up their own teams or run solo. If you want to make it even harder run some dragon keys. 

 

thanks!

[(PSN)Grand_Sheba]

On 2020-09-01 at 11:57 AM, Kaiune said:

IMO Nerfs should only happen if something becomes so meta that usage is so much that it invalidates the rest of the game. Though even then Nerfs like the Xoris were more an indication that there is a problem getting quality rivens as you could still get more out of a good stat stick with a riven. For example Octavias Mallet is insane and can carry you through any level of game play. But even with that you dont see Octavia in every mission. Also the game is Co Op where you share in the loot, OP isnt really that big of a deal the only problem is you get some frames that are in that OK range that never see much play. But honestly Id rather see those frames get some love rather than pull the rest of the roster to their level. 

People who want more of a challenge or dislike playing with a certain frame or weapon can set up their own teams or run solo. If you want to make it even harder run some dragon keys. 

 

the point i was making was towards having a build that could be seen as OP, even if we ran in our own teams for a challenge we often wouldnt meet it but would still get nerfed in order to have a challenge.  so i can run solo's again or run with my clan doesnt matter as the nerf would come and i would have to spend hours redoing a build because i was playing too well. the whole point of this post was a solution other than nerfing the frame, an alternative which i listed above based around triggers.