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Zymos and the problem of interesting weapons...


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Interesting and unique weapons SUCK. They mostly suck hard.

They all have horrid reloads, horrid mag sizes, fire rates, damage... They are all so flawed you'd have to invest half the mods to make the weapon usable and some of them can't even be fixed with rivens.

What gives, DE? Why make such weapons completely impractical. Here's regular gun, it shoots, god tier. Here's something with cool and interesting mechanics that can spice up gameplay, but it sucks so hard you won't be using it effectively even on Star Chart.

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4 hours ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

Zymos is fun and can oneshot anything even on steel path until you get past like 150+ trying to kill bombards and heavy gunners.
You're probably not building it correctly.
Even the ammo economy can more or less be dealt with.

Now go and explain all the other similar weapons.

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2 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Now go and explain all the other similar weapons.

Okay sure:

Interesting Weapons TLDR:
 - First of its kind is either extremely broken or trash
 - If it was broken it gets nerfed and then the second rendition of either is pretty good
 - third version of the same type is typically really good, or they do a variant of the original that is better

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On 2020-09-02 at 12:53 AM, Mr.Holyroller said:

Okay sure:

Interesting Weapons TLDR:
 - First of its kind is either extremely broken or trash
 - If it was broken it gets nerfed and then the second rendition of either is pretty good
 - third version of the same type is typically really good, or they do a variant of the original that is better

List them. Go on. Tell me how many are viable high-level weapons and how many are left behind by simple point-and-shoot guns.
Go ahead, you seem to be knowledgeable.

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6 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

List them. Go on. Tell me how many are viable high-level weapons and how many are left behind by simple point-and-shoot guns.
Go ahead, you seem to be knowledgeable.

I don't know which weapons you do and don't define as interesting.
You're calling them unique, so im going to assume its fine to consider things that are unique within their own weapon type as such like the kuva bramma
Also, I'd need a reference frame for what you mean by "high-level".
To some people thats like lv 200, to others its like 400/500+, but we all know melee is king there unless you're using banshee or someone that can armor strip/abuse mass cc.

But anyways:
kuva bramma is an interesting weapon to me and its very good.
So is the Zenith.
The Zenistar was super good until they murdered how melee range and hitting through objects work.
Dual Toxorcyst are fine for people that like them.
Basmu is great
Shedu is okay
Miter/Panthera are trash (Edit: miter has 50% base status and 1.5 riven disposition, so its probably pretty decent now)
Trumna/Stahlta are nice if you consider those as interesting
Spearguns need some love
The Zarr is pretty awkward to use
Nagantaka is still pretty decent
Hystrix and Knell were pretty bad
People still use Zakti and Tysis to prime status for melee (although kuva nukor is considered the best option)
Synoid Simulor and Gammacor were both absolutely busted, and then got nerfed into the ground.
Angstrum was cool until they nerfed it and i feel like the Kulstar was punished before it even came out because of it
Pretty much all the throwing weapon variants are pretty meh.
As far as melee, there's so many good weapons, but i will say the quassus is a big disappointment.

If your argument is "we need special unique weapons to be meta and better than most other weapons in the game" that causes some issues.
Mainly because some (not all) unique/interesting weapons demand specific playstyles and would make players feel like they have to play a certain way even moreso than what it currently is.

I messed around with the zymos, put some forma in it, it can 2/3 shot 175 bombards in simulacrum. I'm content

Edited by Mr.Holyroller
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While not particularly exceptional from a damage perspective, the Miter with its Augment to break bubbles provides excellent support in higher level Corpus and by proxy Corrupted when eventually the room is flooded with Nullifiers. Spamming Miter shots allows the bubbles to go down and allow your Frames powers whomever they may be to deal the killing blow.

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On 2020-09-03 at 7:01 PM, Mr.Holyroller said:

I don't know which weapons you do and don't define as interesting.
You're calling them unique, so im going to assume its fine to consider things that are unique within their own weapon type as such like the kuva bramma
Also, I'd need a reference frame for what you mean by "high-level".
To some people thats like lv 200, to others its like 400/500+, but we all know melee is king there unless you're using banshee or someone that can armor strip/abuse mass cc.

But anyways:
kuva bramma is an interesting weapon to me and its very good.
So is the Zenith.
The Zenistar was super good until they murdered how melee range and hitting through objects work.
Dual Toxorcyst are fine for people that like them.
Basmu is great
Shedu is okay
Miter/Panthera are trash (Edit: miter has 50% base status and 1.5 riven disposition, so its probably pretty decent now)
Trumna/Stahlta are nice if you consider those as interesting
Spearguns need some love
The Zarr is pretty awkward to use
Nagantaka is still pretty decent
Hystrix and Knell were pretty bad
People still use Zakti and Tysis to prime status for melee (although kuva nukor is considered the best option)
Synoid Simulor and Gammacor were both absolutely busted, and then got nerfed into the ground.
Angstrum was cool until they nerfed it and i feel like the Kulstar was punished before it even came out because of it
Pretty much all the throwing weapon variants are pretty meh.
As far as melee, there's so many good weapons, but i will say the quassus is a big disappointment.

If your argument is "we need special unique weapons to be meta and better than most other weapons in the game" that causes some issues.
Mainly because some (not all) unique/interesting weapons demand specific playstyles and would make players feel like they have to play a certain way even moreso than what it currently is.

I messed around with the zymos, put some forma in it, it can 2/3 shot 175 bombards in simulacrum. I'm content

High Level is stuff 100+, we're not talking extremes here, 100 to 200.

Kuva Bramma does not count, it's just point and shoot with insane AoE and damage.
Zenith suffers from low damage but so do  Soma and such, it's fine.
Zenistar was a camp weapon but it was interesting and bad what happened to it.
Dual Toxocyst has such bad RoF by default and such horrendous buff duration that it is just sad, there's a reason you don't see them in randoms and that's because it's an absolute chose to use and most often disappointing to play with them.
Basmu is cool, yes but you don't do anything with it really.
Nothing interesting about Shedu, it just has a battery.
Miter has a cool augment but pointless and Panthera is not great with damage, cool secondary though and I wish it did more or was usable.
Trumna is great, Stahlta suffers a bit (just a little) on the damage department for primary as well as extremely long charge time on the secondary unless you stack too much RoF mods.
Spearguns need love, especially Scourge. They have really cool mechanics but suffer in DPS or alpha.
Zarr suffers from being behind the powercreep and armored enemies.
Nagantaka is... I expected more :( For a semi-auto with low ammo count and insignificant crit it has very low base damage and very long reload.
Hystrix needs a riven due to medium damage and low mag size, I fixed mine with CC/CD and CD/DMG rivens.
Zakti and Thysis are cool for CO builds and extreme niche uses but that's about it, nothing to them on their own.
Simulor is interesting and yeah, bad now, Gammacor is just a laser.
Angstum and Kulstar are just rocket guns.

Weapon with special mechanics to them that are interesting to use or have unique shooting mechanics or something (Stug, Hystrix, Dual Toxocyst, Simulor, Quantas, Convectrix, Cyanex, Ocucor. Things like these. They suffer from horrible damage, long reloads, small mags, slow firerates etc...
Even the Zymos you're defending, is rewarding only when you land headshots, but dreadfully punishes when you're between shots, miss a head or reload.

I hope some of these explanations and reasonings make more sense and bring you closer to understanding what my gripe is with special weapons vs. regular guns who dominate the game.

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I don't really know what interesting means. I think the issue is that guns with unique mechanics ultimately have some requirement or feature that takes time to activate and people are so obsessed with min maxing dps that those guns all fall to the wayside. By the time you line up a headshot and wait for the Zymos you could have unloaded a full clip of any other popular gun and killed the same amount of enemies with less hassle. Even the new gun the Sepulcrum I wanted to like but it is totally useless because regardless of how powerful it is by the time you lock on to 5 enemies your team has already wiped the map with their point and click weapons. Unless you are a solo player using unique weapons is most of the time a waste cause you will always get at least one person in a group just wants the fastest time to kill weapons.  

 On the other hand I like the trumna and battacor because the alt fire doesn't feel like a sacrifice rather you can just use them when needed in the flow of a mission. Either that or a pyrana prime style passive effect. 

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4 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Spearguns need love, especially Scourge. They have really cool mechanics but suffer in DPS or alpha.

Yes.  The best speargun that is better than 95% of the weapons in the game, including most melee weapons, *suffers?*

Here is how to use the scourge: Build for Viral, Heat.  use that combo with built in corruption to erase low level mobs, and get enough status procs on the heavier ones that they can be taken down in a single melee swing from any weapon.

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11 hours ago, kazeyama said:

I don't really know what interesting means. I think the issue is that guns with unique mechanics ultimately have some requirement or feature that takes time to activate and people are so obsessed with min maxing dps that those guns all fall to the wayside. By the time you line up a headshot and wait for the Zymos you could have unloaded a full clip of any other popular gun and killed the same amount of enemies with less hassle. Even the new gun the Sepulcrum I wanted to like but it is totally useless because regardless of how powerful it is by the time you lock on to 5 enemies your team has already wiped the map with their point and click weapons. Unless you are a solo player using unique weapons is most of the time a waste cause you will always get at least one person in a group just wants the fastest time to kill weapons.  

 On the other hand I like the trumna and battacor because the alt fire doesn't feel like a sacrifice rather you can just use them when needed in the flow of a mission. Either that or a pyrana prime style passive effect. 

THIS! EXACTLY THIS!

 

10 hours ago, Klaeljanu said:

Yes.  The best speargun that is better than 95% of the weapons in the game, including most melee weapons, *suffers?*

Here is how to use the scourge: Build for Viral, Heat.  use that combo with built in corruption to erase low level mobs, and get enough status procs on the heavier ones that they can be taken down in a single melee swing from any weapon.

Dunno, my Javlok outshines Scourge. Back when I used Scourge it would strip all armor from lvl 150 enemies while they still had like 70% HP left, it just had no damage scaling and that was its biggest issue, it was just bad at killing.

 

10 hours ago, continue said:

tfw nobody mentioned my baby "makes game playable with visual impairment" argonak

<3 Love the design of it. But yeah, Argonak has horrible rate of fire, a lot of recoil and so-so damage.

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1 hour ago, Acersecomic said:

<3 Love the design of it. But yeah, Argonak has horrible rate of fire, a lot of recoil and so-so damage.

Damage is perfectly fine if you're playing Banshee. :D

IDK what you're talking about recoil, though, the gun basically doesn't have any.

Edited by TheGrimCorsair
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On 2020-09-03 at 7:01 PM, Mr.Holyroller said:

But anyways:
The Zarr is pretty awkward to use

People still use Zakti and Tysis to prime status for melee (although kuva nukor is considered the best option)

Zarr is a AR/primary mod shotgun, its issue is that the bombardment mode sometimes shoots blanks/the bomblets casings dont explode. Also logic for physics of bomblets is kinda S#&amp;&#036;ty (imo it should fire them out in a star pattern around point of explosion instead of directional angle dependent cone that also depends on prior object physics)
Zakti sadly got a solid chunking in requiring PSF (or PSF effect ability) to be good for melee/drastic increase in use requirement as using it just on a status basis is meh.

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On 2020-09-01 at 1:50 PM, Mr.Holyroller said:

Zymos is fun and can oneshot anything even on steel path until you get past like 150+ trying to kill bombards and heavy gunners.
You're probably not building it correctly.
Even the ammo economy can more or less be dealt with.

Just curious, I don't doubt you, how do you recommend folks build it? I quite enjoy the thematic of the weapon but dunno how to maximize the damage of the thing. 

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