Why Does Subsuming Cost Resources?

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

It just doesn't make sense. Subsuming is feeding Helminth a frame. Why does it requiring feeding to feed it? It makes sense to cost resources for infusion, because Helminth uses the components it got from breaking down what you feed to it in order to put the ability in the frames repertoire. Logically it makes no sense as to why it would need food to eat. Not to mention the high costs in order to subsume is way too high considering the high costs to infuse other warframe abilities into warframes (which will be done a lot for experimentation). It feels very anti-experimentalist. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

You can experiment, just not with everything all at once. They don't want you subsuming 30 frames right away.

[(NSW)Conn1496]

Well, other than the obvious "game mechanics", I feel like people are getting way too caught up on the big mouth at the back of the Helminth room. But in reality... -it is and always has been the whole growth in the room, and when it subsumes a frame, the frame notably goes nowhere near the mouth, too. So it's not really "eating" them in the same way it eats resources. They are - slowly, I should point out - absorbed into the wall of the Helminth, being processed so that Helminth can pass it's power on, something which I'm sure takes a lot of energy. (I mean, if anyone else tried to absorb a Warframe's power to then pass on, I'm sure it'd take a lot of effort.).

In fact, almost anything fancy that Helminth does takes feeding it and helping it grow. It needs feeding to generally perform it's bigger functions, clearly, including subsuming more frames. --and so, you care for it, and it cares for you in more ways than "being the frames' doctor in the lore".

As for why it needs a varied diet, too? Probably in order to correctly process and replicate the variety of frames it subsumes. I mean, you pointed it out in a way too, but it does also inject you when you replace an ability, who knows what it's putting back into you that gives you the new power (probably copied remnants of the frames it subsumes I would assume, which would obviously need materials and likely a base "blueprint" to reproduce later - creating that "blueprint" as it subsumes a frame would likely take resources).

At least, that's my take on it.

As for mechanical reasons in-game? Well, they did say that it was intended to be a "high end player" thing of sorts - I don't remember their exact wording. Most high end players, even if they're short on resources, probably already have an idea of what synergies do and don't work well together and what abilities are worth replacing - it's likely only a one/two time investment per frame. I do agree that it means that testing things out in practice rather than theory is clunky, but given that most ability synergies can be tested with two players and will likely be well documented on a single frame soon anyhow, I think it's more than fair to just make educated guesses instead, with the only exceptions being the Helminth's own abilities, which are completely unique (but are generally either very clearly good or bad, TBH).

Would I like a way to fully test abilities as part of a kit before I subsume frames, etc.? Well, sure, it'd be nice - anything for science. But I think unless you rush yourself you probably won't make too many mistakes with Helminth if you're a skilled player and thorough planner anyway.

[Hobie-wan]

Because it makes me feel better about the piles and piles of resources I've gathered and gives them a purpose.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

4 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Because it makes me feel better about the piles and piles of resources I've gathered and gives them a purpose.

And that only applies for 5% of the players. Most are not veterans. Most are casual players. Just because it validates your resources doesn't mean it makes sense for subsuming (feeding) to require you to feed it. Also doesn't validate grueling farming 

[Hobie-wan]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

And that only applies for 5% of the players. Most are not veterans. Most are casual players. Just because it validates your resources doesn't mean it makes sense for subsuming (feeding) to require you to feed it. Also doesn't validate grueling farming 

My post was half joking. However, casual players should know that they won't be equipped to do every single last thing in the game, especially immediately upon release.

Helminth isn't intended for new players. Sure if more casual players that have been at it a while want to do Helminth, stuff, great. They aren't going to be trying to subsume every single frame within a week of the update that even added it in. If they are actually aiming to do that, they aren't a casual player and they should have been playing long enough to know that there will always be things added to the game which need resources. If all they do it whizz through levels never picking anything up then that's on them.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

35 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

My post was half joking. However, casual players should know that they won't be equipped to do every single last thing in the game, especially immediately upon release.

Helminth isn't intended for new players. Sure if more casual players that have been at it a while want to do Helminth, stuff, great. They aren't going to be trying to subsume every single frame within a week of the update that even added it in. If they are actually aiming to do that, they aren't a casual player and they should have been playing long enough to know that there will always be things added to the game which need resources. If all they do it whizz through levels never picking anything up then that's on them.

This post wasn't about amount of resources needed. I do believe the railjack resources needed are insane for Helminth. This post is talking about subsuming needing resources. They could increase infusion cost for all I care if they remove cost for subsuming. It just doesn't make sense for it to have a cost at all (especially one so high).

[MasterBurik]

Subsume =/= consume.

Absorbing another entity into yourself and retaining a portion of their power for subsequent use costs energy to perform. Like most living organisms, "eating food" is how Helminth gains the energy to perform such actions.

 

It could certainly be cheaper, though.

[Redfeather75]

On 2020-09-01 at 8:21 PM, (NSW)Conn1496 said:

Well, other than the obvious "game mechanics", I feel like people are getting way too caught up on the big mouth at the back of the Helminth room. But in reality... -it is and always has been the whole growth in the room, and when it subsumes a frame, the frame notably goes nowhere near the mouth, too. So it's not really "eating" them in the same way it eats resources. They are - slowly, I should point out - absorbed into the wall of the Helminth, being processed so that Helminth can pass it's power on, something which I'm sure takes a lot of energy. (I mean, if anyone else tried to absorb a Warframe's power to then pass on, I'm sure it'd take a lot of effort.).

In fact, almost anything fancy that Helminth does takes feeding it and helping it grow. It needs feeding to generally perform it's bigger functions, clearly, including subsuming more frames. --and so, you care for it, and it cares for you in more ways than "being the frames' doctor in the lore".

As for why it needs a varied diet, too? Probably in order to correctly process and replicate the variety of frames it subsumes. I mean, you pointed it out in a way too, but it does also inject you when you replace an ability, who knows what it's putting back into you that gives you the new power (probably copied remnants of the frames it subsumes I would assume, which would obviously need materials and likely a base "blueprint" to reproduce later - creating that "blueprint" as it subsumes a frame would likely take resources).

At least, that's my take on it.

As for mechanical reasons in-game? Well, they did say that it was intended to be a "high end player" thing of sorts - I don't remember their exact wording. Most high end players, even if they're short on resources, probably already have an idea of what synergies do and don't work well together and what abilities are worth replacing - it's likely only a one/two time investment per frame. I do agree that it means that testing things out in practice rather than theory is clunky, but given that most ability synergies can be tested with two players and will likely be well documented on a single frame soon anyhow, I think it's more than fair to just make educated guesses instead, with the only exceptions being the Helminth's own abilities, which are completely unique (but are generally either very clearly good or bad, TBH).

Would I like a way to fully test abilities as part of a kit before I subsume frames, etc.? Well, sure, it'd be nice - anything for science. But I think unless you rush yourself you probably won't make too many mistakes with Helminth if you're a skilled player and thorough planner anyway.

Does make sense with how you describe it!

[(NSW)Blackoween]

I actually feel the exact opposite way.  I feel like Subsuming should cost quite a bit more in exchange for a major decrease in Infusion costs.  Because, really, I only have to subsume a Frame once, then I have its ability forever.  43 subsumes is quite a lot, but that *theoretically* could all be done in 43 days.

Infusing is different to me.  If I want to mess around with builds, I am going to be infusing a lot of abilities to truly determine what works well with my playstyle.  Infusions costing a lot of resources encourages me to not experiment for myself, and instead to go off the (admittedly pretty good) advice of content creators like Brozime, OriginalWickedFun, and others.  I would love to test out many different abilities on my Vauban, but the current cost of Infusions doesn't promote that.

Because of the cost of subsuming being fairly low compared to Infusions when I take into consideration the frequency with which I will do both, it makes sense to me to lower the Infusion cost and increase the Subsume cost.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

42 minutes ago, (NSW)Blackoween said:

I actually feel the exact opposite way.  I feel like Subsuming should cost quite a bit more in exchange for a major decrease in Infusion costs.  Because, really, I only have to subsume a Frame once, then I have its ability forever.  43 subsumes is quite a lot, but that *theoretically* could all be done in 43 days.

Infusing is different to me.  If I want to mess around with builds, I am going to be infusing a lot of abilities to truly determine what works well with my playstyle.  Infusions costing a lot of resources encourages me to not experiment for myself, and instead to go off the (admittedly pretty good) advice of content creators like Brozime, OriginalWickedFun, and others.  I would love to test out many different abilities on my Vauban, but the current cost of Infusions doesn't promote that.

Because of the cost of subsuming being fairly low compared to Infusions when I take into consideration the frequency with which I will do both, it makes sense to me to lower the Infusion cost and increase the Subsume cost.

From a game mechanic stand point, I agree with you.