Helminth feeding cost are where they should be

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

Here is the scenario I am seeing on the forums.

"I want to subsume all these powerful abilities and put them on all my Warframes, but the cost are too high. It's not fair. I feel like DE is forcing me to give up all my resources. This is only made for the meta players. I hate giving up my stuff for more power and customization of Warframes. It's not worth it. "

For those that feel like they have to 100% the Helminth and sacrifice all their Warframes and Resources right off the bat. 

1. DE is not forcing anyone to give up anything to the Helminth, be it a Warframe or your resources.

2. You don't have to subsume every single non-prime frame right away which would take 1012 Hrs or 42.5 days roughly for 44 Frames, and it would deplete most if not all players resources.

3. You don't have to apply every ability you subsume in every different combination to every Warframe.

4. You don't have to use all of your resources up to subsume and place the abilities in every combination.

5. It's optional. But it's there. DE gives you a chance to sacrifice something in order to gain more power potentially for every frame.

6. You don't have to have 100% in Helminth in one day or week for that matter, so chill.

7. Who's forcing you to do anything you don't want to do? If the system is not worth it to you, then don't use it. Don't want to pay for the power. Don't want to sacrifice your precious digital resources, and Warframes? Then don't. 

 

Did you all expect a system like this to be free or even cheap for that matter? 

"Why did DE give us a system if it's too expensive and we cannot use it?"

"It's not available for the average casual player"

Well you can use it, once you have the required materials, frames etc. It should not be an available system to the early player but they allowed them to have access to it. Now the resource requirement will weed out most new players. 

 

Who knows maybe DE will cave to these children who want everything now and lower or eliminate the resource cost all together. And while they are at it, they might as well remove the cost of sacrificing the Warframe, because I'm sure someone is out there crying about that too. 

 

It cost a lot because it's worth it. I have only subsumed 2 abilities so far. The resource cost vs what I gained was worth everything I paid for it. I don't plan on subsuming every warframe but maybe a couple more over the next few weeks. 

 

DE needs to not cave in on this one. But if they follow through like they already have with the Entrati syndicate standing, they probably will. 

 

Just don't come crying for more endgame content or more challenging content. Your lack of resources is a challenge DE is presenting you. It's just coming in a form you don't like. 

 

This all being said. I know the cost is very expensive. But no one is forcing you to give up all your resources, especially right away. Pick the frames you want to subsume and the frames you want to put their abilities on and just take your time going down the list. 23hours between each subsume is more than enough time to get the resources for your next subsume. Even without a booster. 

 

DE is giving us the opportunity for more power and the potential to play with our old dusty frames again in a new way. Is the price not worth it?  

 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

The problem is just railjack resources

[saghzs]

For the most part i agree, however there are a few outliars.

Asterite should not cost 1000, I don't have any problems at all with things like copernics and carbides and stuff, but Asterite seems a bit extreme.
Same story with Fresnels, and i think there is 1 more like that which i can't remember at the moment.

Add 1 or 2 more resources to Bile so we're able to choose which ones to feed instead of having to feed all, and then we're good.

[Jarriaga]

So far I don't see a problem as long as you wait 20 or so hours between feeding attempts. By that time, Helminth is hungry for Argon again, which is what I have been feeding it almost exclusively for Bile.

The costs are only a problem for those doing power leveling injecting abilities over and over.

[Miser_able]

FOR THE 50TH TIME. IT'S NOT ALL RESOURCES WE WANT REDUCED. JUST THE RAILJACK RESOURCES.

I have a fully maxed out mk3 railjack and 8888 intrinsics. I don't care about doing railjack anymore, but some of these resources such as titanium, asterite and fresnels are way too high WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER FEEDING OPTIONS. Why would I farm 1000 freaking fresnels when I could just go to the orb vallis and grab 50 thermal sludge? Why are fresnels (A rare resource) being fed in higher amounts than thermal sludge ( a super common resource)?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Miser_able said:

FOR THE 50TH TIME. IT'S NOT ALL RESOURCES WE WANT REDUCED. JUST THE RAILJACK RESOURCES.

I have a fully maxed out mk3 railjack and 8888 intrinsics. I don't care about doing railjack anymore, but some of these resources such as titanium, asterite and fresnels are way too high WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER FEEDING OPTIONS. Why would I farm 1000 freaking fresnels when I could just go to the orb vallis and grab 50 thermal sludge? Why are fresnels (A rare resource) being fed in higher amounts than thermal sludge ( a super common resource)?

That's not true though is it, I've seen lots of people crying about the cryotic cost. And you're not forced to use those ones so don't. The system is designed so that long term players of all different play styles ie Railjack, relic fissures grinding, arbitrations etc will have a stockpile they can feed it. So while you may not have much of a particular resource, others may have a ton of it but less of something you have a lot of.

[SenorClipClop]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Is the price not worth it?

Everything is reasonable, in some cases perhaps even too generous, except for the Railjack resources. Helminth requires 1000 Bracoids for an incremental increase to one value. In comparison, the highest amount of Bracoids needed to craft a Railjack component is just 16. Compare Helminth's 5000 Asterite to a MkIII component's 1.4k, or Helminth's 15k Copernics to the highest RJ-based requirement of 8750.

And to top that off, investment of Railjack resources is for a permanent item (or until you replace it, and you get most of those resources back in scrap), whereas Helminth's investments are to be spent. The system seems to imply that you'll be giving up resources in these amounts repeatedly, which is just absurd.

[Savire510]

Since Helminth system gives you near godly powers im fine with most of the resource costs, but i have a problem with railjack ones tho. 1/2 of the current railjack resource price would be fine.

[Miser_able]

5 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

That's not true though is it, I've seen lots of people crying about the cryotic cost. And you're not forced to use those ones so don't. The system is designed so that long term players of all different play styles ie Railjack, relic fissures grinding, arbitrations etc will have a stockpile they can feed it. So while you may not have much of a particular resource, others may have a ton of it but less of something you have a lot of.

"forced" no. but the diminishing returns on feeding makes other resources more of a pain. and Bile only has 9 feeding options. Argon (which is a pain outside of ISO vaults), copernics (railjack mostly), cryotic (30 excavators worth PER feed), Diluted thermia (5-20 fractures worth), fresnels (rare railjack resource), Isos (railjack resource), morphics ("rare" resource), somatic fibers (rare drop from only 1 mission in the entire game), and thermal sludge (common drop on fortuna. see the issue here? rare, rare, rare, rare, rare, uncommon, rare,rare, common. not exactly balanced

[(PSN)Toolriz]

Some balances could be a little more forgiving but I agree as far as this should be a system for vets. We have always wanted something to use our millions of resources and now new players who haven’t done much of the game are complaining about the expense. I even watched an mr 16 basically spam all his rubedo without looking at appetite and whine all stream about it, yet there is so much this player hasn’t even done in the game. I get new players always want to do the new shiny content and they really don’t have any idea of what they have missed in the past because well the game doesn’t have a codex or have this information anywhere in game for new players to be aware some things even exist. I have met players I consider to be newer in many Deimos bounties who all just want helminth and have 500 hrs into the game lol. They are in for a rude awakening.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

"forced" no. but the diminishing returns on feeding makes other resources more of a pain. and Bile only has 9 feeding options. Argon (which is a pain outside of ISO vaults), copernics (railjack mostly), cryotic (30 excavators worth PER feed), Diluted thermia (5-20 fractures worth), fresnels (rare railjack resource), Isos (railjack resource), morphics ("rare" resource), somatic fibers (rare drop from only 1 mission in the entire game), and thermal sludge (common drop on fortuna. see the issue here? rare, rare, rare, rare, rare, uncommon, rare,rare, common. not exactly balanced

Having looked at it the other day, there are a few easy ones. Obviously argon crystals, takes like 10 minutes to farm about 15. Then you have copernics which you can get in massive quantities from arbis on europa and thermal sludge which is in every cache in Orb Vallis pretty much. Morphics are also very easy to farm.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

Fresnels, Asterite and Bracoids make no sense in terms of quantity required relative to other options, but for the rest, yeah it's fine.

[JackHargreav]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

The problem is just railjack resources

True. We need waaay too many of those. 

[Miser_able]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Having looked at it the other day, there are a couple of easy ones. Obviously argon crystals, takes like 10 minutes to farm about 15. Then you have copernics which you can get in massive quantities from arbis on europa and thermal sludge which is in every cache in Orb Vallis pretty much. Morphics are also very easy to farm.

where the heck are you farming argon that you get 10 in 15? I usually only see 1 every 5.
and arbis on europa are completely RNG based. im not gonna sit there and check the arbi menu every hour hoping its on one specific planet.

and as I said in my post, thermal sludge is the easy one of the bunch.

I pointed out morphics since they are considered by the game to be a "rare" resource. Fresnels are also considered by the game to be a rare resource. so why are morphics fed in groups of 40 but fresnels are fed in groups of 1000? thats a huge difference.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Just now, Miser_able said:

where the heck are you farming argon that you get 10 in 15? I usually only see 1 every 5.
and arbis on europa are completely RNG based. im not gonna sit there and check the arbi menu every hour hoping its on one specific planet.

and as I said in my post, thermal sludge is the easy one of the bunch.

I pointed out morphics since they are considered by the game to be a "rare" resource. Fresnels are also considered by the game to be a rare resource. so why are morphics fed in groups of 40 but fresnels are fed in groups of 1000? thats a huge difference.

Void capture with a max range limbo. You don't have to check it all the time, you can set notifications on the app for example. And again, this is for players who play enough to have the resources, not for people who are going to exhaust their supply attempting it. The only ones I see out of whack are fresnels, asterite and isos.

[S0V3REiGN]

1 minute ago, Miser_able said:

where the heck are you farming argon that you get 10 in 15? I usually only see 1 every 5.
and arbis on europa are completely RNG based. im not gonna sit there and check the arbi menu every hour hoping its on one specific planet.

and as I said in my post, thermal sludge is the easy one of the bunch.

I pointed out morphics since they are considered by the game to be a "rare" resource. Fresnels are also considered by the game to be a rare resource. so why are morphics fed in groups of 40 but fresnels are fed in groups of 1000? thats a huge difference.

The new vault missions give a ton argons. I have resource booster because of all the new resources along with a Smeeta Kavat and I had 48 argons when I went to use the hemlith (I wasn't farming argons),

[Miser_able]

17 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

The new vault missions give a ton argons. I have resource booster because of all the new resources along with a Smeeta Kavat and I had 48 argons when I went to use the hemlith (I wasn't farming argons),

yea. I specifically stated Iso vaults as being a good way to farm argon. I also had a ton saved up when I unlocked helminth. but since I already have a mech, and maxed necraloid standing I dont have too much reason to do vaults anymore, so that argon is gonna be a bit rarer.

[ChaoticEdge]

feeding cost is pretty dang high for some parts but the only feeding cost is stupid really highly about is really the damn RJ materials feeding it is SUPER DANG HIGH!  There is tons of players who don't do RJ because they hate how it was made and it is still clunky as hell.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

58 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

FOR THE 50TH TIME. IT'S NOT ALL RESOURCES WE WANT REDUCED. JUST THE RAILJACK RESOURCES.

I have a fully maxed out mk3 railjack and 8888 intrinsics. I don't care about doing railjack anymore, but some of these resources such as titanium, asterite and fresnels are way too high WHEN COMPARED TO OTHER FEEDING OPTIONS. Why would I farm 1000 freaking fresnels when I could just go to the orb vallis and grab 50 thermal sludge? Why are fresnels (A rare resource) being fed in higher amounts than thermal sludge ( a super common resource)?

I dont see why any idiot would defend this. I might as well have infinite thermal sludge but that much fresnels? Pfft

[(PSN)PoKerZ2017]

Bile is just not ok sorry. 

[Hokibukisa]

There is a mental block that some WF players just can’t seem to get beyond.

Because 3000 of resource A takes longer to farm than 50 of resource B, does not mean that the amount of resource A needs to be lower.

They just can’t seem to get beyond this.

The time investments are unequal. Everyone agrees.

And that’s ok.

[Dazubo]

We can define the Helminth as 6 groups that each have a pool of resources populated arbitrarily. There are two primary enumerations in each group that are of interest to a player :

A - The number of resources you will most likely not accrue over time without any specific intention to acquire them (somatic fibres, argon crystals, cryotic)

B - The number of resources you will most likely accrue over time without any specific intention to acquire them (ferrite, rubedo, nano spores, etc)

 

This is a subjectively objective list of B category resources in each of the 6 groups from the perspective of an MR28 player with 1706 in-game hours, as a reference point:

Oxides (4/8) - Alloy Plates, Ferrite, Gallium, Salvage

Calx (2/9) - Lucent Teroglobe, Rubedo

Biotics (2/18) - Ganglion, Pustulite

Synthetics (7/10) - Circuits, Control Module, Detonite Ampule, Fieldron Sample, Neural Sensors, Orokon Cell, Polymer Bundle

Pheromones (7/11) - Chitinous Husk, Infected Palpatators, Pulsating Tubercles, Severed Bile Sac, Plastids, Nano Spores, Neurodes

Bile (1/9) - Morphics

Allegedly, Bile requires the most active acquisition of ingredients. Additionally, due to the cyclical nature of the Helminth, having fewer B category resources becomes increasingly more punishing the lower the number.

 

I think most of the debate on the forums comes down to whether you as a player believe that the Helminth system be fully progressable using only B-category resources, or whether you believe such an 'endgame' mechanic justifies the inclusion of A-category resources. B-category favour rewards time played more greatly, and A-category justification rewards active/efficient farming more greatly.

[Hokibukisa]

Consider this, people who don’t have a lot of disposable resources:

Originally the barrier to entry was intended to be much higher. This system wasn’t even for you in the first place.

DE even mention this as being intended to be a resource sink.

They didn’t say anything about you being able to farm up every resource required for a feeding in an equal amount of time. That’s a personal mental block of yours, not a design mistake.

We don’t know for sure what is behind the numbers of the amounts. They didn’t say.

It is possible that DE was looking at the global totals of a resource that exists in the game, and then looked at what they would like them to be.

If they want Frensils to be much more rare in numbers than they currently are, then that would be a reason to increase the amounts required for a feeding.

Let me reiterate, that they stated nowhere that the time investment required to farm a resource for a feeding should be equal. YOU came up with that.

[sly_squash]

Agreed. Helminth isn't that hard to feed if you do it efficiently. If you're cramming red resources down its throat for 1% gain, yeah that's a drain. But appetite costs rise on their own, so if you aren't resource-rich just wait for it's appetite to float back up and you're fine. Not even bile is that hard to get--the vaults everyone is doing anyway reward a lot of argon on the side, and you can use that as your go-to when you need to fill since each serving doesn't cost much and it's going to disappear anyway.

As long as you're not rushing subsumes and pacing the helminth leveling so that it'll unlock more subsume slots precisely when they are needed and no earlier, you'll generally be OK.

[Proscriptor]

10 minutes ago, Dazubo said:

 

Bile (1/9) - Morphics

 

and cryotic and thermal sludge; argon perhaps not, buy also perhaps yes - i always have some in my inventory and i don't really need it for anything else atm

isos are aren't great but they're pretty acceptable