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Doesn't the Helminth currently go against it's own purpose?.


(PSN)Mofojokers

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Must admit, I do agree that the constant costs for experimenting are a bit daunting. I subsumed Oberon for Smite so that I could use Smite Infusion with the Iron Staff, Smite Infusion does not benefit the Iron Staff (at least the subsumed variant). I have effectively wasted resources subsuming Oberon and equipping Smite (which I am actually okay with, these things happen, might use Smite on another frame), and I now have to spend even more resources going back to my old build that was working (this bit is where I do disagree with the system).

And if DE say that they fixed it not working, well in order to test that I'll need to, yes, spend more resources to switch back to it so that I can test and potentially provide further feedback.

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14 hours ago, Slothdrop said:

The grind to get to the point of being able to subsume a warframe was not all that bad because i ignored every bit of Deimos that didn't contribute to that. The moment that i noticed that there was a cost to swap out the abilities after subsuming was truly a very disappointing moment for me.

What i was expecting to do was spend all of my time at cephalon simaris to see new potential playstyles i can unlock while i'm waiting for other warframes to subsume. If I give garuda ember's fireball can she be a viable pure fire mage with unlimited energy? Is it useful to give banshee mag's pull when she already has sonic boom? The answer to those is probably no but i'll have fun testing them out. 

With the cost to simply swap out abilities intact I feel like i'm stuck at the theory crafting stage because i'm at the carnival and all these rides are awesome but I only have so many tickets available to me and i have to figure out which rides will give me the most enjoyment. The solution to that problem is to buy the day pass that will let me ride on all the rides but unfortunately for warframe we don't have have that options. 

seriously i thought the subsume cost would be the day pass not simply the admission ticket.

sorry for that weird transition to the carnival analogy but it was the clearest way i could explain my thoughts.

 

Yes thankyou i am not alone here, you understand what i am talking about then. Do you see all the hours of content they could create or should of had?.

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I think the cost of the system is probably an issue, but I don't think the system itself goes against its own purpose.  I see the purpose as a way to further customize our Warframes and encourage players to be creative in how they solve problems and play the game.

And I see that happening already.  I'm delighted as I see different players putting different abilities on frames, and I know that there is so much more yet to come as more players have time to unlock the depths of these systems.  So I think there's solid evidence that things are working as intended.

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Definitely agreeing here. Getting Helmitnh levelled and steadily subsuming more and mroe frames seems fine but the running costs of the system seem a bit much.

Trying out different combinations is what the system excels at. And I've by now seen quite a few unexpected but decent looking combinations. Others on the other hand don't to work at all as certain kinds of debuffs don't seem to stack, making some abiliies wasted on certain frames without being able to know beforehand.

So, either way there is a lot to play around with and its really annoying to pay over and over again. It will eventually just promote people to read up possible meta combos rather than really engage with the system themselves as the cost is incredibly significant, especially whenever the godawful Bile is involved.

I can understand the idea of a resource sink, but I don't think it will play out well in the long-term. Especially with possible balance changes, new frames and abilities and possible frame reworks. I would probably be less concerned if you could dump whatever resources you want for infusions specifically, but the restrictions to what you need to feed for specific abilites makes this rather tedious as you mgiht not pile up the resources you need while playing normally, which is what a resource sink would be for.

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14 hours ago, Yoollloooo0 said:

Well, I don't have that much resources, but can still use helminth for a while. I made your point before, since I love to experiment, because the infusing costs are making me go for the obvious meta choices. However, someone told me, rightfully, that once all the abilities are subsumed, there will be no more costs at all, until other frames are released.

While it is true, the infusing costs are almost as high as subsuming costs, which is not logical in my opinion. If the infusing costs could be around as much as the costs for infusing the basic helminth abilities, it would be for the best I think (like around 15% maximum *3 ).

Furthermore, I am even less inclined to experiment because there are some ability combos I want to try out, mostly for fun, but I don't even know if it will work or not because (Will Reave Mirage have multiple Reave walls ?). However, very few people are going to experiment, even if they have a lot of resources, because if someone spends a lot of resources for subsuming, then the same amount for infusing, just to find out the combo doesn't work... they might stop experimenting to go for the obvious meta choices... which is sad.

 

I thought of some ideas that could make experimenting better, while keeping the resource challenge, like making the infusing costs increase if you use an ability a lot (like if you already have 2 frames with Roar infused, the cost for the 3rd infusion will be higher). Or even make a "cancel and refund" button that you can use within a short amount of time after infusion, just in case the combo you wanted to try doesn't work. 

I like the idea and honestly anything that encourages experimental builds is good. Because currently can't see trying x non meta ability out on x frame to see if it works well ot is even possible or worthwhile. At the moment i will slap each prime with their optimal choice. But experimental builds my favorite part of Helminth has to wait until they do something about it.

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12 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

So it doesn't work like that? Damn. I wonder if anything moves between the developers ears.

Unfortunately it does not buddy. Even us with alot of resources have insane doubts regarding experimental builds. Like some of the stuff is just insane like 20,000 Titanium for like 15% of the 100% in one of the areas required. So because the swapping costs almost match as well it pretty much means one thing. That you just look up x frame best in slots and choose them.

Meaning this system does not do it's intended purpose or provide tonnes of more content. But instead acts as another system of power creep to our already god mode unkillable frames.

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Yeah it's hilarious.

Both the motivation to unlock it and the gameplay itself is self-defeating.

Being allowed to do any number of combinations of abilities, to just actually play no bs, could keep people entertained for ever. 

WIth insane costs, even any costs at all, you are encouraged to stop playing it, I mean lol. It also amuses me how everyone not a hardcore farmer can kiss the whole system goodbye.

Must be awesome coming back around to check on a new update wanting to play only to be met with this.

Like they don't have faith in their own content, it has to be at gunpoint as with the planet-grind to even unlock the system. Like they imagine the content can only last if you block it behind some industrialized grind formula.

At the end of the day, the helminth system is recycled, copy-paste content using old animations people already bought or grinded out.

And on top of everything it's almost entirely the less desired abilities anyway so there is really zero reason to invest time and energy on it.

Also funny the underlying implication that people have abilities on warframes that are terrible.

They create the problem and we have to grind for the fix paying for recycled content. lol x 43^7

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13 hours ago, Lichformed said:

Yep, it's another powercreep system that was added without thinking that has no actual fun customization value.

Please raise your hand if you were here during the lvl9999 event where we ran it with Trinity and melees without arcanes and rivens?

We have been destroying lvlXXXX enemies for years now without even touching the most game breaking items in game.

Now every casual player and their mother has had easy access to rivens, arcanes and now Helminth.

The game is beyond unbalanced or fixable anymore because you really cannot take away the toys that were given to everyone.

So yeah, it's about min maxing your already good enough damage for the end of your days now lol.

That's definelity it, we are gods before Helminth and with it and even after it's not that irrelevant anymore we will still be god mode.

So having Helminth setup as more of a fun almost endless content idea was an amazing idea.

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13 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Must admit, I do agree that the constant costs for experimenting are a bit daunting. I subsumed Oberon for Smite so that I could use Smite Infusion with the Iron Staff, Smite Infusion does not benefit the Iron Staff (at least the subsumed variant). I have effectively wasted resources subsuming Oberon and equipping Smite (which I am actually okay with, these things happen, might use Smite on another frame), and I now have to spend even more resources going back to my old build that was working (this bit is where I do disagree with the system).

And if DE say that they fixed it not working, well in order to test that I'll need to, yes, spend more resources to switch back to it so that I can test and potentially provide further feedback.

Nail on the head right here buddy. You definelity understand what i am trying to get out to the community. Definitely still can be rebalanced but the community needs to show the reasons as to why it should. I believe comments like yours are important to that discussion.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

I think the cost of the system is probably an issue, but I don't think the system itself goes against its own purpose.  I see the purpose as a way to further customize our Warframes and encourage players to be creative in how they solve problems and play the game.

And I see that happening already.  I'm delighted as I see different players putting different abilities on frames, and I know that there is so much more yet to come as more players have time to unlock the depths of these systems.  So I think there's solid evidence that things are working as intended.

You may see some testing but as everyone is pointing out. It's costs for swapping will cause the majority to follow meta paths again. This is nothing new and if you have been around Warframe for abit you will be aware of the *intended systems* for fun and content turning into power creep systems instead.

The initial costs themselves make sense as a resource sink and as new frames are released then more resource sinks to come. But the addition of resource sinks and large ones at that on ability swapping means less fun builds and more best in slot focus for frames again. This has repeated time and time again.

Even Brozime who is king of 100% content smasher of Warframe has been pushing this exact point since the release. He even knew that even without knowing the cost setup that some abilities were just gonna meta stomp alot. But once we found out the swapping costs an arm and leg the real issue showed up once more and even he face palmed.

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Agreed. I don't mind the resource sink upfront (aside from bile. Why is bile so expensive?). I do get peeved when I need to throw even more resources just to try out what I've put in.

Even the loadouts require a lot of resources to set up, and that's only if you limit yourself to two or three frames. 

Just feels like the system shoots yourself in the foot, here. A lot of options to play around with, but your hamstrung by the cost. 

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5 hours ago, Raikh said:

Definitely agreeing here. Getting Helmitnh levelled and steadily subsuming more and mroe frames seems fine but the running costs of the system seem a bit much.

Trying out different combinations is what the system excels at. And I've by now seen quite a few unexpected but decent looking combinations. Others on the other hand don't to work at all as certain kinds of debuffs don't seem to stack, making some abiliies wasted on certain frames without being able to know beforehand.

So, either way there is a lot to play around with and its really annoying to pay over and over again. It will eventually just promote people to read up possible meta combos rather than really engage with the system themselves as the cost is incredibly significant, especially whenever the godawful Bile is involved.

I can understand the idea of a resource sink, but I don't think it will play out well in the long-term. Especially with possible balance changes, new frames and abilities and possible frame reworks. I would probably be less concerned if you could dump whatever resources you want for infusions specifically, but the restrictions to what you need to feed for specific abilites makes this rather tedious as you mgiht not pile up the resources you need while playing normally, which is what a resource sink would be for.

Correct over long term it won't play out well. See Helminth will always be a sink because it means each new frame is now needed x 2 then you need the resources to eat one of them for their ability. So Helminth will succeed as a resource sink in that matter. But with the resources required for swapping abilities it means most abilities won't see the light of day for silly / fun builds often as it's too much for testing purposes. People will rely on stat sheets and youtuber trial and error for views to see what things do.

That is just sad.

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4 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

That's what I think. 

I'm not gonna do some stupid stuff. At least not if it costs me 20000 titanium to try a build.

I would honestly like to know how they came up with the numbers. Isn't anyone else curious how they decided these exact numbers?, they are very out of sink on some and others are really good that it really makes no sense.

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3 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Yeah it's hilarious.

Both the motivation to unlock it and the gameplay itself is self-defeating.

Being allowed to do any number of combinations of abilities, to just actually play no bs, could keep people entertained for ever. 

WIth insane costs, even any costs at all, you are encouraged to stop playing it, I mean lol. It also amuses me how everyone not a hardcore farmer can kiss the whole system goodbye.

Must be awesome coming back around to check on a new update wanting to play only to be met with this.

Like they don't have faith in their own content, it has to be at gunpoint as with the planet-grind to even unlock the system. Like they imagine the content can only last if you block it behind some industrialized grind formula.

At the end of the day, the helminth system is recycled, copy-paste content using old animations people already bought or grinded out.

And on top of everything it's almost entirely the less desired abilities anyway so there is really zero reason to invest time and energy on it.

Also funny the underlying implication that people have abilities on warframes that are terrible.

They create the problem and we have to grind for the fix paying for recycled content. lol x 43^7

I have had to think about your comment for abit for this. Because again this is the nail on the head type comment. But it brings up another good point this is reused content but has the potential to be almost unlimited fun content with some changes.

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1 hour ago, Rivyn said:

Agreed. I don't mind the resource sink upfront (aside from bile. Why is bile so expensive?). I do get peeved when I need to throw even more resources just to try out what I've put in.

Even the loadouts require a lot of resources to set up, and that's only if you limit yourself to two or three frames. 

Just feels like the system shoots yourself in the foot, here. A lot of options to play around with, but your hamstrung by the cost. 

Agreed again for the bile but i don't know why exactly the numbers are like this. I must say the only way currently best for it is focus on 100% green triangles only. They reset over time so it helps to lessen it. Also funny that the bile sacs are not in the bile tab lol... like what the?...

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1 hour ago, (PS4)zenhumphrey said:
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DE making a system like this accessible to mr8 is kinda confusing

Even MR15 seemed abit low for the costs they were pushing. Seeing as even to use rivens i believe its MR16 so 17+ wouldve made more sense. Although i would not recommend anyone under MR20 who hasn't been around for awhile to touch the system especially atm.

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Speaking as someone who can easily afford the costs I am suprised with how it was done. I was expecting very high costs to rank the Helminth and to subsume each frame, that makes perfect sense to me, I wouldn't even mind if they were higher. But I thought for the sake of encouraging creativity and enhancing the longevity of the fun we can have with this, infusing a warframe would not cost anything or might cost a common infested resource such as say Nano Spores. 

My suggestion as an alternative to paying per infuse would be to pay PER FRAME that we infuse. So if you've infused an ability one time on a certain frame(note this does not mean if you have 3 novas you pay once and all 3 are free, you pay per actual frame), any further abilities you choose to try on that frame would not cost anything. The longevity of a resource sink would come from subsuming future frame releases. This is how I expected the system to be.

So just to reiterate I'm suggesting

- high resource cost to level up the helminth 

- high resource cost to subsume a frame

1 time only resource cost per actual frame to infuse abiltiies.

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31 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Speaking as someone who can easily afford the costs I am suprised with how it was done. I was expecting very high costs to rank the Helminth and to subsume each frame, that makes perfect sense to me, I wouldn't even mind if they were higher. But I thought for the sake of encouraging creativity and enhancing the longevity of the fun we can have with this, infusing a warframe would not cost anything or might cost a common infested resource such as say Nano Spores. 

My suggestion as an alternative to paying per infuse would be to pay PER FRAME that we infuse. So if you've infused an ability one time on a certain frame(note this does not mean if you have 3 novas you pay once and all 3 are free, you pay per actual frame), any further abilities you choose to try on that frame would not cost anything. The longevity of a resource sink would come from subsuming future frame releases. This is how I expected the system to be.

So just to reiterate I'm suggesting

- high resource cost to level up the helminth 

- high resource cost to subsume a frame

1 time only resource cost per actual frame to infuse abiltiies.

Ditto high base fee for eating frames + feeding is fine if the ability swapping is low or free. Never alone we also now need two of every new frame so alot more resource sinking.

I also really like your idea of once per frame. I would happily fork out my resources knowing i only needed to hit each one once and i would probably just do it to the primes and umbra ones.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

He even knew that even without knowing the cost setup that some abilities were just gonna meta stomp alot. But once we found out the swapping costs an arm and leg the real issue showed up once more and even he face palmed.

But as Brozime has also said, there's always going to be something in any system that's the meta; you can't stop that, it's just an inevitable fact.  So the fact that there are some abilities that seem like a meta stomp (which a few days into a system people are just starting to slowly unlock doesn't feel very conclusive anyway) doesn't seem like it indicates an imbalance.

I do agree that the cost associated with infusing abilities is going to discourage experimentation, though, at least early on.  It's possible that at some point once all the upfront costs have already been spent, maybe things will feel a bit more doable for some players.  At this point, unless they change the costs associated, that will be a long way off though.

But yeah, the costs are wicked right now.  I've got subsumed abilities that I'd love to try out but haven't even put on Warframes.  I've only infused 2 abilities so far, because I feel like I need to wait for the Bile appetite to be as high as possible.  I have a feeling they'll bring the costs down though, in the same way that they brought the MR down to 8.

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22 minutes ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

But as Brozime has also said, there's always going to be something in any system that's the meta; you can't stop that, it's just an inevitable fact.  So the fact that there are some abilities that seem like a meta stomp (which a few days into a system people are just starting to slowly unlock doesn't feel very conclusive anyway) doesn't seem like it indicates an imbalance.

I do agree that the cost associated with infusing abilities is going to discourage experimentation, though, at least early on.  It's possible that at some point once all the upfront costs have already been spent, maybe things will feel a bit more doable for some players.  At this point, unless they change the costs associated, that will be a long way off though.

But yeah, the costs are wicked right now.  I've got subsumed abilities that I'd love to try out but haven't even put on Warframes.  I've only infused 2 abilities so far, because I feel like I need to wait for the Bile appetite to be as high as possible.  I have a feeling they'll bring the costs down though, in the same way that they brought the MR down to 8.

Indeed i hope they do but i do wish they wouldn't of made it so low on MR as well. It's not great to see low MRs freaking about it's upfront costs. While us on the high end take issue with the ability to use it for endless fun content instead of just another power creep meta system again.

Our voices are not united and could end up making the system just another casual system instead of endless fun content to do between expacs.

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I've seen people not liking the 100% limit, and I don't like it too. Even with high costs, you could stockpile all categories over time, so you could have more than 1-2 attempts to experiment. We would have to wait for resources to become max green, yes, but this would feel more like "experimenting". And now we have to wait between the infuses., which somehow breaks the immersion of experimenting freely.

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1 hour ago, OptimusJ said:

I don't care about what I already spent on Bile at Helminth rank 8, as long as it's fixed from now on.

Regardless of our resource drain already it wouldn't stop balancing to the ability swap part of it 100%. In the long run the community would value tonnes of fun content from one system over just another meta power creep instert x thing system again.

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