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Doesn't the Helminth currently go against it's own purpose?.


(PSN)Mofojokers

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43 minutes ago, Nakti said:

I've seen people not liking the 100% limit, and I don't like it too. Even with high costs, you could stockpile all categories over time, so you could have more than 1-2 attempts to experiment. We would have to wait for resources to become max green, yes, but this would feel more like "experimenting". And now we have to wait between the infuses., which somehow breaks the immersion of experimenting freely.

It really does break the core idea of Helminth and it does seem the community so far agrees with this. Nothing wrong with the high costs if it's a more permanent setup.

Helminth will fullfill his role as the resource sink as each new frame now needs to be built twice and requires alot to eat it. Just the ability swapping shouldn't as to allow us to make our own fun content. Currently the costs kinda shoot the system in the foot for experiments / trial and error.

People will just look at stat sheets and youtuber to figure out the best combos and again it turns into another power creep meta system. We don't need to be any stronger as we don't have content to match the strength. But the system could again as we are all saying provide alot of fun free content between expacs with some tweaking.

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10 hours ago, Raikh said:

Definitely agreeing here. Getting Helmitnh levelled and steadily subsuming more and mroe frames seems fine but the running costs of the system seem a bit much.

Trying out different combinations is what the system excels at. And I've by now seen quite a few unexpected but decent looking combinations. Others on the other hand don't to work at all as certain kinds of debuffs don't seem to stack, making some abiliies wasted on certain frames without being able to know beforehand.

So, either way there is a lot to play around with and its really annoying to pay over and over again. It will eventually just promote people to read up possible meta combos rather than really engage with the system themselves as the cost is incredibly significant, especially whenever the godawful Bile is involved.

I can understand the idea of a resource sink, but I don't think it will play out well in the long-term. Especially with possible balance changes, new frames and abilities and possible frame reworks. I would probably be less concerned if you could dump whatever resources you want for infusions specifically, but the restrictions to what you need to feed for specific abilites makes this rather tedious as you mgiht not pile up the resources you need while playing normally, which is what a resource sink would be for.

It definitely doesn't make sense when compared to the rest of the game. If you look at forma there is a cost to apply the polarization but after that you can swap it around at will and it helps clean up mistakes that would lead to incorrect status combinations. Having an associated cost to swapping polarization would lead to nothing but a tedious process to an already costly upgrade even if i could afford to do it. 

If we look at the modding system of warframe the same thing happens. The convenience of being able to swap out mods let's us test out new play-styles with unlimited freedom while adding an additional cost to do the same thing would only make it more tedious. 

The only exception are arcanes and I personly skipped them entirely because there was a cost associated to moving them around. It was never about the difficulty in acquiring them.

 

 

 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Slothdrop:

The only exception are arcanes and I personly skipped them entirely because there was a cost associated to moving them around. It was never about the difficulty in acquiring them.

Arcane Distillers are also a thing of the past. You can switch Arcanes out freely and given they are now bound to a Warframe config rather than cosmetics they are also just like mods in regards to switching them around.

The general trend of Warframe definitely goes towards free customization past acquisition of the means. So Helminth is a strange outlier. And it certainly doesn't help that it is basically a triple gate of first forcing you to spend specific resources, second having diminishing returns for feeding the same resources back to back and third a limit of how much infusion fuel you can stockpile, so you can't play around the diminishing return over time. Its almost sadistic.

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11 hours ago, Surbusken said:

Like they don't have faith in their own content, it has to be at gunpoint as with the planet-grind to even unlock the system. Like they imagine the content can only last if you block it behind some industrialized grind formula.

Hah! This pretty much sums up all the updates DE has ever made.

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2 hours ago, Slothdrop said:

It definitely doesn't make sense when compared to the rest of the game. If you look at forma there is a cost to apply the polarization but after that you can swap it around at will and it helps clean up mistakes that would lead to incorrect status combinations. Having an associated cost to swapping polarization would lead to nothing but a tedious process to an already costly upgrade even if i could afford to do it. 

If we look at the modding system of warframe the same thing happens. The convenience of being able to swap out mods let's us test out new play-styles with unlimited freedom while adding an additional cost to do the same thing would only make it more tedious. 

The only exception are arcanes and I personly skipped them entirely because there was a cost associated to moving them around. It was never about the difficulty in acquiring them.

 

 

 

Again nail on the head buddy these systems work in a way to allow alot of content to come from them. The Helminth system really works against their previous design setup of these systems. We can only hope they are taking notice and preparing to bring it in line with the others.

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2 hours ago, Raikh said:

Arcane Distillers are also a thing of the past. You can switch Arcanes out freely and given their are now bound to a Warframe config rather than cosmetics they are also just like mods in regards to swithcing them around.

The general trend of Warframe definitely goes towards free customization past acquisition of the means. So Helminth is a strange outlier. And it certainly doesn't help that it is basically a triple gate of first forcing you to spend specific resources, second having diminishing returns for feeding the same resources back to back and third a limit of how much infusion fuel you can stockpile, so you can't play around the diminishing return over time. Its almost sadistic.

The past always shows they will take the community feedback in. Hopefully they intend to do the same with the Helminth regarding it's design flaw versuses their other systems intentions. Everything else is set up in a way to make different builds on the go for us to create our own content out of. This is what i am trying to drive home with this  thread that the system for Helminth works against the entire system setup.

I am glad to see everyone is on the same page so far here. I just hope that DE takes the feedback and really understands the issue. Not the costs or the slots but the ability to create endless content via builds.

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2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

my biggest quest is "shouldn't the warframe be its own FOOD" ? it took hours to farm the frame and now it takes hours of resource farming to digest the frame that has those resources inside of it anyway!

I'm happy to jot that down to Helminth needing to break down the frame into it's base forms to consume it requiring alot of strength on his part.

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11 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

my biggest quest is "shouldn't the warframe be its own FOOD" ? it took hours to farm the frame and now it takes hours of resource farming to digest the frame that has those resources inside of it anyway!

The majority of frames are far too easy to acquire for that to be a good method.

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I haven't even bothered to get the Helminth system yet, especially after reading all of the comments about Bile...

For some reason it always feels like DE comes up with new content in reverse. Rather than saying "This would be fun so lets make it, oh and it can be a decent time sink as well", it always comes across as "We need a time/resource/plat sink. What can do we create to do that?". 

The content often seems to be a poorly planned afterthought to the goal of grinding instead of focusing on creating full, entertaining content that happens to take time and effort to participate.

On 2020-09-02 at 10:07 PM, zoffmode said:

You're free to experiment, just don't forget to toggle infinite resources with your dev tools.

I think you just summed up the entire DE testing process.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

Hah! This pretty much sums up all the updates DE has ever made.

It's definitely always been a flaw of theirs but always give them credit for taking the feedback in and trying to push foward what normally feels like how things should of been at the start. I do feel they need people like Brozime to give direct feedback on things before releasing them to the public.

Has he ever been wrong?, i don't think anyone comes close to his level of dedication and knowledge of the game. Regardless if the DE team call themselves players they will never see the systems they design from our point of view.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)Mofojokers:

The past always shows they will take the community feedback in. Hopefully they intend to do the same with the Helminth regarding it's design flaw versuses their other systems intentions. Everything else is set up in a way to make different builds on the go for us to create our own content out of. This is what i am trying to drive home with this  thread that the system for Helminth works against the entire system setup.

I am glad to see everyone is on the same page so far here. I just hope that DE takes the feedback and really understands the issue. Not the costs or the slots but the ability to create endless content via builds.

It is a strangely designed system to say the least. Not sure if the way the resources are distributed into their 6 categories is just way too theme based which causes this strong imbalance between the categories or if somebody over at DE thought it was a good idea to gate Helminth in that way, which basically both undermines the resource sink and the experimentation components of the system.

Curious how fast we will see changes to the system, be it regarding resources or be it regarding abilities. Given that they like to do changes based on popularity and given the gating of the system it might take a while before they have a good set of data to use. Especially when there are many factors why players might not interact with the system for a while.

But these kind of "oversights" regarding resource economy are getting incredibly tiring. Its basically the expected outcome of any new content, rather than some uncommon mistake.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Traubenzuckr:

I'd like the system to remain choice and consequence based, involving planning and all, and not veer into a sandbox-style direction.

Genuinely curious what value you see in it being about consequence. Its unlike any other form of power progression/alteration we had so far and the more restrictive parts have been phased out over time. I agree that you should think about which abilities you want to add where and for what, but even so some abilities don't see to function in tandem, others might bring unexpected value or underperform in practice compared to the theory. It very much looks like a system that requires trial and error to see its full potential.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

No one really expects to play a game for years. If you stick around for awhile the system will always be here and I bet in a year and a half, if that, most people will be able to freely subsume whatever they want. 

I totally understand though, because short term thinking and planning is easier.

Indeed once again short term thinking and planning has led us to wait to take full use of another system outside of meta paths. :(

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2 hours ago, prodi1600 said:

bluntly Helminth exist to make players play warframe, you needing to grind and play modes you usually dont its part of Helminth purpose.

I would counter that current Helminth system works against that goal. That if they can understand what the community is trying to say regarding it in this thread then they would succeed in creating more long term player driven content.

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2 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The majority of frames are far too easy to acquire for that to be a good method.

couldn't they do it on a per frame basis? like nidus can take hundreds of hours to farm, maybe feeding him should maybe only have cost 1% across the board ? rather than "done your week long grind just for the parts? waiting 4 days for the construction? good now farm me 12000 cryotic and I will think about eating him"

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I haven't even bothered to get the Helminth system yet, especially after reading all of the comments about Bile...

For some reason it always feels like DE comes up with new content in reverse. Rather than saying "This would be fun so lets make it, oh and it can be a decent time sink as well", it always comes across as "We need a time/resource/plat sink. What can do we create to do that?". 

The content often seems to be a poorly planned afterthought to the goal of grinding instead of focusing on creating full, entertaining content that happens to take time and effort to participate.

I think you just summed up the entire DE testing process.

If there is something in the helminth system that can help make your favorite frame even better then I would encourage you to give it a try. Assuming that you can get to your first subsume without going out of your way to farm for helminths food then at least you will be ready to jump in when you are ready.

I have been able to have a lot of fun with the limited amount of abilities I have unlocked and infused. The helminth system is amazing to me but it has it's flaws that is directly linked to the infusion cost.

So far I have infused embers fire blast onto 5 frames and 2 of them worked well while the other three worked against the play-style I imagined. I would like to test it on other warframes but unlocking abilities literally gives you more mouths to feed because your resources will be split between subsuming, infusing a new ability unlocked, and infusing an ability already unlocked on a different frame. And all of that is limited by helminths appetite ( and to be clear his appetite is not the problem, the infusion cost is)

You don't have to go through that tedious process however because there will be plenty of people who will share details on unique combinations and you can plan more accordingly.

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12 minutes ago, Slothdrop said:

If there is something in the helminth system that can help make your favorite frame even better then I would encourage you to give it a try. Assuming that you can get to your first subsume without going out of your way to farm for helminths food then at least you will be ready to jump in when you are ready.

The issue is that the only reason Helminth can be used to make any frame better is because most have a garbage ability that is taking up space in their kit that's so bad it can be replaced without missing it...

DE should be the one fixing that problem, not the players.

14 minutes ago, Slothdrop said:

I have been able to have a lot of fun with the limited amount of abilities I have unlocked and infused. The helminth system is amazing to me but it has it's flaws that is directly linked to the infusion cost.

I have several frames crafted to be subsumed, but I'm not in much rush to get through Helminth ranks. Like other veterans have complained about, I have millions of many resources but despite having completed and adequately farmed all Railjack nodes the Helminth will still destroy my Railjack resources since a lot of them are not obtained organically like they are with most other resources. Heck, they aren't even obtained as organically as cryotic where it has to have it's own game mode that provides it, but it's at least while still playing naturally. Many Railjack resources are obtained by farming the node AFTER beating the objective and refusing to leave the mission.

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

The issue is that the only reason Helminth can be used to make any frame better is because most have a garbage ability that is taking up space in their kit that's so bad it can be replaced without missing it...

DE should be the one fixing that problem, not the players.

I have several frames crafted to be subsumed, but I'm not in much rush to get through Helminth ranks. Like other veterans have complained about, I have millions of many resources but despite having completed and adequately farmed all Railjack nodes the Helminth will still destroy my Railjack resources since a lot of them are not obtained organically like they are with most other resources. Heck, they aren't even obtained as organically as cryotic where it has to have it's own game mode that provides it, but it's at least while still playing naturally. Many Railjack resources are obtained by farming the node AFTER beating the objective and refusing to leave the mission.

Definitely agree that there are those frames that have that one useful ability and the helminth can only partially address that because of the single ability swap limitation. Helminth does see better use in situations where the Warframe has several useful abilities but some are modded out of practical use because they scale differently with stats.

I haven't done any railjack content to see those feeding options but I do see some of those out of the way resources with wacky cost requirements. Until those numbers get adjusted I only stick to using materials that I have excess amounts of and minimal argon crystal farming. That's been able to get me close to rank 5 with minimal hassle but a lot of waiting.

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On 2020-09-02 at 9:45 PM, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

Helminth will always be a sink because it means each new frame is now needed x 2 then you need the resources to eat one of them for their ability. So Helminth will succeed as a resource sink in that matter. But with the resources required for swapping abilities it means most abilities won't see the light of day for silly / fun builds often as it's too much for testing purposes. People will rely on stat sheets and youtuber trial and error for views to see what things do.

That is just sad.

I mean, I have already tried both tesla nervos and banish on Ember just because I could. The system isn't keeping you from experimenting, your impatience and desire to min/max is.

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

As they said, it's the resource cost that severely prohibits experimentation. When you have to farm an hour in Railjack for one feeding, that's not impatience. That's torture.

Upgrading bile costs 3 argon crystals. That is a bad run on mot with nekros. And that will give you enough bile to add up to 3 abilities on warframes depending on the ability.

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