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RNG vs Effort. Your grind preference?


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What the title says. Would you prefer progression grind to rely on RNG just as it does now, or would you prefer it to be effort based.

RNG is inconsistent and some people might find the grind easier while other with bad luck end up having a very rough time. 

  • Mining, fishing, conservation, acquiring weapon/warframe/necramech parts. are RNG-based grinds

Effort based is consistent and fair to everyone. You do a task and you get the reward needed to progress 100% of the time guaranteed, but it typically takes more time than RNG (unless you're unlucky).

  • Syndicate, focus, affinity, are effort-based grinds. 

What is your preference? Would you like RNG grind to change to effort-based or viceversa?

Personally, I prefer effort based grind and I can't stand my progress being dictated by a machine rolling dice. Yes, I'd have preferred a fixed exchange rate for the Entrati tokens, even if the price to rank up is 100 tokens. I'd have preferred if, much like WoW, you could find whatever ore vein you want at first glance and ignore the rest. I'd prefer it if conservation animals have restricted areas where they spawn, breeding grounds, feeding grounds.

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I like them both in their own. Couldn't say I prefer one to the other. Depends on my mood really.

Sometimes not knowing when I'll get a drop etc is better than me knowing it will take x amount of time and that time will be a while.

Other times, I just want a guarantee.

That's why I don't farm for frames. I trade random prime parts for plat to buy them. It's RNG from the relic but I have an easier time finding someone who needs a random item, than me specifically farming to get a particular thing I want. 

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Effort until they start making the amount of work required to be absurd and/or requiring cheesy builds to get to the end. I prefer the sense of accomplishment you get in making progress towards your goal, as long as the goal still feels attainable. I don't mind the Syndicates, for example, Focus I'm less thrilled about due to it being tied into RNG (yes, they are purchasable but I prefer to not include the market here).

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23 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

What the title says. Would you prefer progression grind to rely on RNG just as it does now, or would you prefer it to be effort based.

RNG is inconsistent and some people might find the grind easier while other with bad luck end up having a very rough time. 

  • Mining, fishing, conservation, acquiring weapon/warframe/necramech parts. are RNG-based grinds

Effort based is consistent and fair to everyone. You do a task and you get the reward needed to progress 100% of the time guaranteed, but it typically takes more time than RNG (unless you're unlucky).

  • Syndicate, focus, affinity, are effort-based grinds. 

What is your preference? Would you like RNG grind to change to effort-based or viceversa?

Personally, I prefer effort based grind and I can't stand my progress being dictated by a machine rolling dice. Yes, I'd have preferred a fixed exchange rate for the Entrati tokens, even if the price to rank up is 100 tokens. I'd have preferred if, much like WoW, you could find whatever ore vein you want at first glance and ignore the rest. I'd prefer it if conservation animals have restricted areas where they spawn, breeding grounds, feeding grounds.

I would definitely choose Effort based over RNG any day as it would feel more rewarding.

Relics are a good example of how to change this, how would you change Relics from RNG to Effort based? well you could leave it intact & you would only get the common drops, add void fissures to do the first tier to make it drop common & uncommon, the 2nd tier to make it drop the entire loot table & radiat the relic to make it drop only Uncommon & Rare drops. Then afterwards, you could do endless missions to up that reward so that based on how far you went (wave defense you decided to stay up to 30 waves as an example) every 10 waves (or every 10 minutes) you would obtain the next reward out of that relic.

Your putting your effort into getting everything from that relic instead of relying on RNG.

Edited by Blaudari
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I think there should be a mix of both RNG based rewards and effort based rewards.
Apply some intelligent thinking and plan out what should be effort based and RNG based.

For example the grind for the necramech should be effort based, but the grind for the vault archgun should be RNG based.
The reason being that the necramech is an entirely new system that possibly is required in future content.
Virtually everyone should have a necramech. Meanwhile the archgun is optional. You don't NEED this archgun to do anything.

Similarly the necramech mods can be divided into RNG or effort. You can make the basic survival mods like Vitality and Redirection be effort based with the rest being RNG based.

Rare Ressources like Scintillant can be both effort and RNG. You need several of them so if they drop it's a nice bonus that you don't have to pay standing for. However if you get RNG screwed or just prioritise getting them right now you can pay standing for them.

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Prefer effort but don't mind rng to a certain degree. It is much more rewarding to work towards sometihng than randomly acquire it. So if high randomness is too much of a factor you lose a sense of progress because you are not really getting closer to your goal, you are just gambling.

But in regards ot Waframes what frustrates me the msot is any large scale grind that has nothing to with the core Warframe gameplay. I had a lot less trouble chasing rare parts in tower keys because I still had a lot of fun jsut playing that. But currently way too many tasks involve mini games or generally non combat acitvities that cam be neat sometimes but are fundamentally not what I play the game for.

Too muhc grind is outside of Waframes core gameplay loop and that gets tiring incredibly quick. Especially because every time a new grind that is not core warframe gameplay is added, that also means there is no content beign added for core gamepla youtside fo new to use on the old stuff.

Edited by Raikh
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You think RNG is bad untill you reach WoW Cata level of "effort" in form of daily chores required to progress and instantly uninstall.

Honestly, there's plenty to hate in both systems and unfortunately no game I've seen has come up with a third.

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Between the two it depends on how it's handled. RNG rates that are too low can make the entire process a drag especially if it isn't otherwise rewarding while more fixed progressions can get old if they take too long. In Warframe I've mostly been burned by RNG but as I have a lot of experience with MMO's that have the absolute worst of both worlds at the same time I've never been too bothered by Warframe's systems.

Personally I prefer "scrapping" systems where drops are completely rng but can be broken down into some form of tokens that can be used to acquire other drops. i.e.: turning in a combination of ten frame chassis/system blueprints for a guaranteed neuroptics.

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You think effort is bad until you reach WoW BFA where you do your weekly battlefront to get a RNG item that may or may not Corrupted with random corrupt mods. Wait what was I talking about again? I forget, but the important take away is that WoW is bad

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I think it's just a matter of perception for players since I guess DE designs item acquisition to be time based.

But this perception is what's important - how to make players keep playing the game. I guess for non-essential but high value items like the Condition Overload mod for example, it's best to keep it RNG. On the other hand, Amps are essential so they are locked behind standing to give players a hint that they need to get them with how much work they need to do.

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The Amp blueprints and part blueprints are locked behind standing but the material farm is RNG.
I remember not making amps because I couldn't find some obscure part like Seram Beetles. (Who would imagine you'd get a beetle from fishing?) That you could only get during the night cycle and with bait if I recall correctly.

I just decided to say #*!% all that. Then they released Thumpers

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18 minutes ago, HoustonDragon said:

I'd rather grind for an achievable defined goal than play roulette all the time.

*glares over to the Xiphos part acquisition*. Syndicate Medallions capitalize the effort part as it bypasses the Daily Standing, but requires you to scavenge the map thoroughly. I prefer effort as you make progress reliably over the relentless RNG that divides the playerbase on three spectrums (very lucky, average, or unlucky).

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Most games are a mix of both and this is obviously another Deimos hate thread. Not sure why people all of a sudden think they're not supposed to do more than just kill stuff in an MMO....before deimos you still had to do random stuff....how do you think people acquired Titania before the Prime? If you didn't buy it (which people also have a problem with) then you had to scan plants. 

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1 hour ago, ixidron92 said:

What the title says. Would you prefer progression grind to rely on RNG just as it does now, or would you prefer it to be effort based.

RNG is inconsistent and some people might find the grind easier while other with bad luck end up having a very rough time. 

  • Mining, fishing, conservation, acquiring weapon/warframe/necramech parts. are RNG-based grinds

Effort based is consistent and fair to everyone. You do a task and you get the reward needed to progress 100% of the time guaranteed, but it typically takes more time than RNG (unless you're unlucky).

  • Syndicate, focus, affinity, are effort-based grinds. 

What is your preference? Would you like RNG grind to change to effort-based or viceversa?

Personally, I prefer effort based grind and I can't stand my progress being dictated by a machine rolling dice. Yes, I'd have preferred a fixed exchange rate for the Entrati tokens, even if the price to rank up is 100 tokens. I'd have preferred if, much like WoW, you could find whatever ore vein you want at first glance and ignore the rest. I'd prefer it if conservation animals have restricted areas where they spawn, breeding grounds, feeding grounds.

Wait. How is mining fishing and conservation included in RNG?

If I'm fishing and do it right, I get the fish I was aiming at. I can infuence the spawn rate of the fish in two ways, first by fishing at a hotspot, and second by fishing with bait. None of that is primarily RNG.

With mining, again I mine nodes and get a type of mineral. Yes theres some RNG involved as some ores are rarer than others, but with the fancy cutters we have, I can again infuence what happens by mining in a specific way affecting quantity and rareness. If I want gems, I can also mine at gem nodes, and ores at ore nodes. Is there RNG yes, but a pretty acceptable level, I figure.

Conservation... just like fishing, if I see species X and want species X.... I shoot it. I get species X. I can force spawns if I bother to track them and do the call. If I want a rare version of species X, I can use the pherhormone. Yes it's still a bit random, but again, my actions clearly influence the outcome. 

I don't think that you can classify these as anywhere similar to the RNG involved in getting weapon/parts drops, because for most items, no matter what we do, that's not something that we con influence.

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I'd prefer effort based anytime, provided the challenge is a reasonable one, and not asking for a lick in the elbow.

Destiny 2 is a fair example of bad "effort based" grind in some specific quests and missions, not to mention absurd designs like getting "10 kills with rocket launchers in Crucible", which are not impossible, but have high probabilities you gonna punch the screen in a matter of seconds.

Edited by lukasystem
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4 minutes ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Animal studies demonstrate RNG based rewards are more effective (addictive) at retaining trained behaviors than consistent (effort based) rewards.

Go look up Skinner Box, little mouse.

 

Nah, looking it up would involve a retained skill. The correct instruction would be to go to wikiroulette and bounce around from one random article until we end up on an article for Operant Conditioning Chamber. 😜

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filling up a Bar makes whatever it is automatically a chore. filling Bars is outdated crap that should stay in the 80's and 90's when games couldn't be more interesting due to Processing speed and Memory limitations.

now we're without those limitations and so there's no excuse to intentionally turn stuff into Bar filling. make Game Mechanics, not homework.

 

plain Randomization isn't my favorite thing, but you're not making stuff more interesting by making it filling Bars.
Randomization can even be good for systems, but it depends on how you interface/access that Randomization. it all comes back to Game Mechanics - making __ interesting to do.

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

If I'm fishing and do it right, I get the fish I was aiming at. I can infuence the spawn rate of the fish in two ways, first by fishing at a hotspot, and second by fishing with bait. None of that is primarily RNG.

With mining, again I mine nodes and get a type of mineral. Yes theres some RNG involved as some ores are rarer than others, but with the fancy cutters we have, I can again infuence what happens by mining in a specific way affecting quantity and rareness. If I want gems, I can also mine at gem nodes, and ores at ore nodes. Is there RNG yes, but a pretty acceptable level, I figure.

Conservation... just like fishing, if I see species X and want species X.... I shoot it. I get species X. I can force spawns if I bother to track them and do the call. If I want a rare version of species X, I can use the pherhormone. Yes it's still a bit random, but again, my actions clearly influence the outcome. 

you have some feeling of control (and actually do to some extent), but each of those systems is still driven by Chances. so it is Randomization, with or without the ability to influence it.

Edited by taiiat
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