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challenge? power fantasy? both? why it does not matter...


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may i point out this elephant in the room?

to be blunt, warframes are unbalanced.

not because they are strong.

not because they are weak either.

but in comparison to one another, some are obviously stronger and far more favorable than others, and i think this issue is of greater importance than deciding whether or not the game should be more challenging or more of a power fantasy.

because if the game suddenly becomes more challenging, warframes that are considerably more stronger than others will benefit, but ones that are considerably weaker will become even less favorable.

if the game becomes a power fantasy, its not just about the power creep. sure, even weaker frames will benefit from this new direction, but ones that are already more powerful will benefit from it even more so.

 

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If we had tougher enemies stuff like CC and defensive abilities start to matter more again, currently, the enemies we face the most are too weak to require anything besides pure damage output, while cc something if it poses zero threat?

If we face SP+ enemies more often I think frame choices would actually become more diverse, not less.

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While you're not at all wrong I would argue that this point doesn't matter as even the weakest frames can still trivialize the game due to how powerful weapons are. And even without strong weapons certain "weak" frames are still overpowered in other aspects that are only overshadowed because of other overpowered frames.

Like Vauban and Nyx being considered some of the weakest frames for the longest time are now two of the strongest in Steel Path because their niche effects didn't matter in content where pressing 4 could kill enemies faster. Or even Xaku currently who can be come invulnerable with evasion stacking through the Carnis mod set on top of melee being the most overpowered thing in the game.

Personally I'd say the biggest issue is how much stronger our weakest set ups are against average enemies. And that frame balancing can matter far more if there is first a baseline to balance them against.

Edited by trst
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The problem with DE is that they keep contradicting themselves

They say the Steel Path was some kind of "hardmode", yet they are the same people who released Inaros Prime thinking it was balanced

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2 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

If we had tougher enemies stuff like CC and defensive abilities start to matter more again, currently, the enemies we face the most are too weak to require anything besides pure damage output, while cc something if it poses zero threat?

If we face SP+ enemies more often I think frame choices would actually become more diverse, not less.

this. categories like attack/def/support will begin to actually matter. you could specialize in one or have hybrids. 

i'd go into waaay more detail as i have a strong opinion on the matter however at the end of the day it's about as useless as speculating about the lore. nothing will be done about either (at least nothing meaningful) as it would require effort by the game developers and let's face it, why put effort into something when it'll be disproportionate to the monetary rewards

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There's no weak frames in the game at all, but there are weak players and that's a separate discussion.

It's the mods. As long as we can have 280 range or strength, 175 efficiency or a lot of duration, a long with all the ways to make weapons OP with 6 forma and rivens, we'll always be OP. That's why I like the game though.

 

If the devs wanna pull the band aid off and nerf our range, strength efficiency and duration mods I'll totally be ok with this, too. As I'll personally make the game work in my favor no matter what.

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34 minutes ago, Ailia_Grimm said:

The problem with DE is that they keep contradicting themselves

They say the Steel Path was some kind of "hardmode", yet they are the same people who released Inaros Prime thinking it was balanced

Inaros has a lot of HP but no great offensive capabilities. You use him with OP weapons. As a counter example: You can use 1 decent weapon with Saryn and simply use all her abilities. 

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This takes a pretty monochromatic view of "challenge", though. If "challenge" continues to be "ability to kill", then yes, Warframes with sub-par ability to kill go out of fashion. But if challenge also includes things like prolonged stealth or CC against otherwise invulnerable enemies - just as examples - then the preferred Warframe shifts for each particular challenge.

(This also works by replacing "challenge" with "efficiency".)

It's also confusing why you say that discussion about challenge "doesn't matter". Balance between Warframes is an issue, yes. Difficulty and engagement are also issues. One doesn't cancel the other out just because either direction on one has no effect on the other. I mean, that literally goes both ways.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Inaros has a lot of HP but no great offensive capabilities.

Pocket Sand applies blind to enemies so stealth multiplier on melee. Honestly one of the better melee frames for long runs cause its cc that goes through walls and boosts damage.

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Balance is a complicated thing. Its not just about making sure every piece of equipment a player can have is equal. Its also about making sure their general strength matches the challenges they are faced with. Do enemies die at the speed you want? Is traversing the environments as easy or hard as you want? Do player's actually have a reason to use all the options you have given them?

The main problem Warframe has is that the potential power of any given player can vary such a huge amount. What is an insurmountable challenge to one person may be completely trivial to another, simply because they have a slightly different mod setup. DE has basically created an infinitely long pole, and now they can't find where to place the fulcrum. So trying to pick a single "right way" for any part of the game to function is impossible.

If they ever want to properly balance anything, they are going to have to seriously reduce this inequality. You can't have one player dealing 200 DPS, while another deals 100,000,000 DPS in the same mission. But, that would obviously take a near complete overhaul of the entire game, so I doubt that's going to happen any time soon. Maybe if they make a sequel.

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