Mesa's Peacemakers (4) - Extremely effective DPS, but fundamentally flawed and not fun

[DeLawrence]

Context:

Spoiler

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, haven't searched, I am coming off of a discussion I've had with some of my friends regarding Mesa. 

She is supposed to be the "Cowboy/Sheriff" frame, the "Wild West meets Space Magic" concoction, right?

I don't think I was the only one who got Mesa back in the day based on the high amounts of praise she received as being an outstanding DPS frame with very high survivability and some useful CC added on top, right?

I didn't notice the Peacemakers until I got her and didn't really think of it ever since, but after playing some other games, I can't help but notice how underwhelming her revolvers are. 

They're simply put...machine guns...and aimbots at that. They are effective, yes, but they are so boring to use, I find myself avoiding Mesa all together these days. 

 

Here's a rework idea for her Peacemakers that me and my friends came up with. I'm curious if other players feel the same about Mesa and think that she needs a design change. 

Why not have the Peacemakers be exalted moddable revolvers( basically as they are now) with no aimbot, and a slow fire rate, but high punch (hand cannon style) with about 50-100m worth of punch through (not Zenith Infinite)? The focus mechanic could be changed to ramping the damage until the ability is canceled or the guns holstered.

This idea also stemmed from the misleading archetype given to the Athodai...hand cannon. That was no hand cannon...closest thing we have to one is Lex Prime. 

I think it's time we actually got slow firing, high damage, boom sounding, good feeling hand cannons and I think Mesa is the perfect candidate for bringing them into the game.

 

[SpaceWalker0109]

I personally agree, Mesa's kit is sorta boring in many places.

1st is a lackluster dmg store ability.

2nd is a press and forget CC and Dmg buff.

3rd is a damage reduction, Simple.

4th is just aimbot.

 

I personally feel her kit should have more manual stuff, Like replace her 2 with flashbang that gives a damage buff if you stun a enemy. (Basically same but its thrown where you are aiming in a arc)

But as for her 4, I can imagine wielding one or two slow firing revolvers that punch through enemies to be quite fun!

 

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

So you want turn Mesa into a worse DPS frame because you don’t find Peacemakers even remotely enjoyable.

No.

[Teridax68]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So you want turn Mesa into a worse DPS frame because you don’t find Peacemakers even remotely enjoyable.

No.

I don't think that many people find Peacemaker to be enjoyable, necessarily, so much as a means to an end. Mesa is a strong DPS frame because pressing a button to auto-clear a room is very strong, even if it quickly becomes boring when one can do so 24/7. I don't necessarily agree with the OP's suggestion, because a pair of exalted revolvers isn't exactly that interesting either, but I agree with the criticism that Mesa isn't an especially enjoyable frame, and is picked more because of her strength than because of her gameplay or theme.

As for the OP's suggestion, I feel the damage ramp-up could be potentially used as a replacement for Ballistic Battery, which currently is an awful ability due to how it needs to be pre-charged before it can do anything. As for Peacemaker, I feel the main issue is that the ability should be used for special moments, but is currently far too spammy for its power. If the ability provided guaranteed hits, perhaps even auto-headshots, and lots of firepower, that could be fine... so long as Mesa had to work for it somehow beforehand. If the ability used some resource other than Energy, such as headshots or just general gun damage dealt, and used that to power itself, it would likely allow for it to retain its power, yet feel better simply by dint of being used less frequently. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Nah Mesa is fine, I find her fun because I’m a big Dark Tower, Equilibrium fan. All her abilities get used. Especially now with helminth. She doesn’t need a rework, she is a LoS dps frame and does what she’s supposed to do. 
 

OP, sounds like you want to turn Mesa into a completely different frame. So here is a suggestion, go pitch your new frame concept to the “fans design a frame sub”. 
 

Edit: that said your rework of Mesa is vary poorly thought out, and would turn Mesa into a real over the top  monster..50-100m punch thru? with head shots? 😂🤣 no. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

Play steel path. Have fun with Mesa regulators. The ain’t going to regulate jack.

[selig_fay]

7 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Context:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, haven't searched, I am coming off of a discussion I've had with some of my friends regarding Mesa. 

She is supposed to be the "Cowboy/Sheriff" frame, the "Wild West meets Space Magic" concoction, right?

I don't think I was the only one who got Mesa back in the day based on the high amounts of praise she received as being an outstanding DPS frame with very high survivability and some useful CC added on top, right?

I didn't notice the Peacemakers until I got her and didn't really think of it ever since, but after playing some other games, I can't help but notice how underwhelming her revolvers are. 

They're simply put...machine guns...and aimbots at that. They are effective, yes, but they are so boring to use, I find myself avoiding Mesa all together these days. 

 

Here's a rework idea for her Peacemakers that me and my friends came up with. I'm curious if other players feel the same about Mesa and think that she needs a design change. 

Why not have the Peacemakers be exalted moddable revolvers( basically as they are now) with no aimbot, and a slow fire rate, but high punch (hand cannon style) with about 50-100m worth of punch through (not Zenith Infinite)? The focus mechanic could be changed to ramping the damage until the ability is canceled or the guns holstered.

This idea also stemmed from the misleading archetype given to the Athodai...hand cannon. That was no hand cannon...closest thing we have to one is Lex Prime. 

I think it's time we actually got slow firing, high damage, boom sounding, good feeling hand cannons and I think Mesa is the perfect candidate for bringing them into the game.

 

There is a problem here. You are actually nerfing a unique item to put a common non-unique weapon in your hands.

Now, normal weapons cannot compete because the aimbot. Once you take out the aimbot, literally a lot of things get better than the peacekeepers that waste energy.

This is the same problem with the belifire, where you can do a narrow strength build with pistol arcanes or just grab a normal or archgun weapon.

Ditto with the artemis bow, where you need a concentrated arrow and a mandatory headshot for this to work. Or you can take another weapon.

Ditto with the Dex pixia, which has a lot of dps in theory (and you also need a lot of strength and arcanes for this to work) but in practice normal weapons will be many times more useful by default.

In principle, I do not mind if this becomes a normal weapon, and mesa got another 4. And the same could be done with other frames. But you propose to simply turn peacekeepers into ordinary weapons that take up a slot and cost energy. You know? Just take your normal weapon. Nobody forces you to sit in peacemakers endlessly.

[NinjaZeku]

8 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

I'm curious if other players feel the same about Mesa and think that she needs a design change. 

She needs a better 1, that's it. The rest of her kit works fine, and I dare say plenty of people have fun using her.

If you want a "real hand cannon" then just ask for that, as a regular weapon, don't try to cripple a perfectly alright Frame.

[DeLawrence]

8 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So you want turn Mesa into a worse DPS frame because you don’t find Peacemakers even remotely enjoyable.

No.

That was just the basic idea, obviously the numbers and functionality would be tweaked to match/exceed (in theory,due to ramping damage) her current DPS while making it more engaging to use

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

1.There is a problem here. You are actually nerfing a unique item to put a common non-unique weapon in your hands.

2.In principle, I do not mind if this becomes a normal weapon, and mesa got another 4. And the same could be done with other frames. But you propose to simply turn peacekeepers into ordinary weapons that take up a slot and cost energy. You know? Just take your normal weapon. Nobody forces you to sit in peacemakers endlessly.

1. I get what you're saying, but no, Mesa's is far from unique. Something needs to be memorable to be unique, not just a boring one of a kind, which is what her 4 is now.  I don't find aimbots unique, I find them lazy.
And why are high punch through hand cannons not unique? We don't have any in the game. We have ,maybe, failed attempts at it, but nothing that would fit the archetype I've described. So i don't see the issue here. 
The current Regulators don't even fit Mesa's theme. That's not what a Wild West Cowboy held, that's not how a revolver works, so why is catering to the frame's theme not "unique", I wonder?

2.Excal's blade costs energy, Wukong's staff costs energy and they are/were regarded as good weapons. I don't know about Wukong, but Excal's sword still deals a lot of damage, probably more than most melee weapons and has the energy slash functionality.  That's what I'm asking for Mesa, pistols that resemble actual revolvers but with the added functionality of high Punch Through, maybe a stun shot if you don't kill the target with the first shot. 

And spare me the "it costs energy" argument. You have 2 cast and forget abilities and 1 that barely drains energy thanks to modding for efficency(which is standard on her) + Arcanes, Pizzas, Trinity, Protea (and guess what, her dispensary now through Helminth). There's no way in hell you run out of energy these days, not unless you'd make a shot cost 50 or something.

They also take no slot...in fact, it basically gives you one...you can cancel the ability to use you equipped secondary you know?

As for the "take away the aimbot", her 1 could be brought into the mix, turn it into a 3 step focus charge (sort of a meter) which gives Mesa passive bonuses  and alters the effects of Peacemakers when cast. 

For example, casting with 1 charge would give the benefit of higher reload speeds on weapons and overall damage to Peacemakers , 2 charges would give flat 30% Headshot CC (moddable up to 100) and the same for Peacemakers, 3 charges would give infinite Punch Through for the current mags of all available weapons, and for the Peacemakers, the same effect + bullet magnetism/pseudo aimbot (kinda how Golden Gun works on Hunters in D2) where you aim generally near the target and it kinda snaps to the head.

I don't know...there are a lot of good and engaging things they could do to Mesa and many other frames...but I guess the casuals don't want their braindead tactics taken away. I know it sounds harsh but that's how it is and has been for a long time now in the game. 

[SpaceWalker0109]

1 hour ago, DeLawrence said:

That was just the basic idea, obviously the numbers and functionality would be tweaked to match/exceed (in theory,due to ramping damage) her current DPS while making it more engaging to use

1. I get what you're saying, but no, Mesa's is far from unique. Something needs to be memorable to be unique, not just a boring one of a kind, which is what her 4 is now.  I don't find aimbots unique, I find them lazy.
And why are high punch through hand cannons not unique? We don't have any in the game. We have ,maybe, failed attempts at it, but nothing that would fit the archetype I've described. So i don't see the issue here. 
The current Regulators don't even fit Mesa's theme. That's not what a Wild West Cowboy held, that's not how a revolver works, so why is catering to the frame's theme not "unique", I wonder?

2.Excal's blade costs energy, Wukong's staff costs energy and they are/were regarded as good weapons. I don't know about Wukong, but Excal's sword still deals a lot of damage, probably more than most melee weapons and has the energy slash functionality.  That's what I'm asking for Mesa, pistols that resemble actual revolvers but with the added functionality of high Punch Through, maybe a stun shot if you don't kill the target with the first shot. 

And spare me the "it costs energy" argument. You have 2 cast and forget abilities and 1 that barely drains energy thanks to modding for efficency(which is standard on her) + Arcanes, Pizzas, Trinity, Protea (and guess what, her dispensary now through Helminth). There's no way in hell you run out of energy these days, not unless you'd make a shot cost 50 or something.

They also take no slot...in fact, it basically gives you one...you can cancel the ability to use you equipped secondary you know?

As for the "take away the aimbot", her 1 could be brought into the mix, turn it into a 3 step focus charge (sort of a meter) which gives Mesa passive bonuses  and alters the effects of Peacemakers when cast. 

For example, casting with 1 charge would give the benefit of higher reload speeds on weapons and overall damage to Peacemakers , 2 charges would give flat 30% Headshot CC (moddable up to 100) and the same for Peacemakers, 3 charges would give infinite Punch Through for the current mags of all available weapons, and for the Peacemakers, the same effect + bullet magnetism/pseudo aimbot (kinda how Golden Gun works on Hunters in D2) where you aim generally near the target and it kinda snaps to the head.

I don't know...there are a lot of good and engaging things they could do to Mesa and many other frames...but I guess the casuals don't want their braindead tactics taken away. I know it sounds harsh but that's how it is and has been for a long time now in the game. 

I do like the abilities working for peacemaker. But I feel they shouldnt be a one and done ability, Like you hafta ramp it up or something.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, DeLawrence said:

And spare me the "it costs energy" argument. You have 2 cast and forget abilities and 1 that barely drains energy thanks to modding for efficency(which is standard on her) + Arcanes, Pizzas, Trinity, Protea (and guess what, her dispensary now through Helminth). There's no way in hell you run out of energy these days, not unless you'd make a shot cost 50 or something.

The argument was that normal weapons are much better. Energy is another disadvantage that matters when making a choice. Yes, the exalted blade is good, but when I recover the rhino + dispenser with archguns, I will be doing things better. I don't remember exactly the name of this archgun with waves, but I think you get it.

On the other hand, I am not against stuff like garuda claws. It's just funny, but when it gets useless, I'll just switch weapons.

1 hour ago, DeLawrence said:

kinda how Golden Gun works on Hunters in D2)

Also, there is one more problem, it does not work as in destiny. In destiny, all exalted weapons don't really matter how you modify them. It is always strong. But this is always limited. And I will not talk about restrictions, because you will hear a lot about it. I'll talk about strength. Yes, it can be powerful, but until the release of the S thing that will make you wonder why peacemakers exist at all. 

A living example is the Dex pixia, which are great dps but are inferior to normal weapons with better stats. Make it separate from the razorwing and watch people give it up.

[SpaceWalker0109]

9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So you want turn Mesa into a worse DPS frame because you don’t find Peacemakers even remotely enjoyable.

No.

To be fair, She is a terrible DPS frame in the fact that every game someone uses her, Nobody can do anything. Mesa kills all enemies before anyone can even sneeze in their direction.

The only times I really used Mesa was when I want to solo grind and that just makes it more boring. I dont really use her anymore, Saryn works because Power is nerfed by her lack of Armour. Mesa can do both and yet feel so much more boring. I understand its fun to destroy all your targets like its high noon but her kit is so braindead that you might as well just use aimbot on a more fun frame.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

42 minutes ago, SpaceWalker0109 said:

To be fair, She is a terrible DPS frame in the fact that every game someone uses her

That is literally the most backwards logic ever.

[SpaceWalker0109]

You quoted me out of context, She is only chosen because of how OP she is. I doubt you can deny she can kill everything while everyone else sits on their hands.

[GnarlsDarkley]

5 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

She needs a better 1, that's it.

Spoiler

Helminth is the answer

 

[SpaceWalker0109]

Just now, GnarlsDarkley said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Helminth is the answer

 

That doesnt mean that the ability should be forgotten, Most players wont be able to get to helminth until waaaaaaaay later in the game. All abilities need to be good, Not some that we can just remove.

[Teridax68]

14 minutes ago, SpaceWalker0109 said:

That doesnt mean that the ability should be forgotten, Most players wont be able to get to helminth until waaaaaaaay later in the game. All abilities need to be good, Not some that we can just remove.

I agree fully with this. I think the danger with the Helminth system is that it risks excusing the existence of crap abilities, which the system now lets us replace. Frames shouldn't be designed with dead abilities in mind, and should have fully functional and enjoyable kits as a baseline, which we should then be able to choose to customize if we so desire. If the first answer to an ability being poorly-designed is that one can just Helminth it out, that is already an admission that the ability's not worth having.

[selig_fay]

16 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I agree fully with this. I think the danger with the Helminth system is that it risks excusing the existence of crap abilities, which the system now lets us replace. Frames shouldn't be designed with dead abilities in mind, and should have fully functional and enjoyable kits as a baseline, which we should then be able to choose to customize if we so desire. If the first answer to an ability being poorly-designed is that one can just Helminth it out, that is already an admission that the ability's not worth having.

This is a misconception for one simple reason. Helminth is already exist. At the same time, abstract rework is somewhere in the future. And even if you hear that your favorite frame gets a rework, I don't advise you to rejoice. Nyx got a rework that gave it additional features, but old Nyx players noted that Nyx got worse due to the fact that an important feature was deleted. 

But as I said earlier helminth already exists. Therefore, even if de will be justified by this, this is only 1 ability in the system that you can replace.

[Teridax68]

35 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

This is a misconception for one simple reason. Helminth is already exist. At the same time, abstract rework is somewhere in the future. And even if you hear that your favorite frame gets a rework, I don't advise you to rejoice. Nyx got a rework that gave it additional features, but old Nyx players noted that Nyx got worse due to the fact that an important feature was deleted. 

But as I said earlier helminth already exists. Therefore, even if de will be justified by this, this is only 1 ability in the system that you can replace.

That's not a misconception, the fact that "Helminth is already exist" is precisely why the danger is present, as clearly people are already making the excuse I mentioned. From now on, every time someone mentions that a frame has a bad ability, there will inevitably be people who will retort that they should just Helminth it out, and I'm willing to bet some people will even make that excuse for frames with more than one dead ability, despite the impossibility of replacing them all. Mentioning bad reworks itself does not prevent the fact that DE does good reworks when they put a genuine amount of care and effort into them, which didn't happen with Nyx but certainly happened with Nezha and Wukong.

[(PSN)thegarada]

1 hour ago, SpaceWalker0109 said:

You quoted me out of context, She is only chosen because of how OP she is. I doubt you can deny she can kill everything while everyone else sits on their hands.

At what level? Forgive me that I do not care much about your pre level 100 sad story. If you are playing low tier content, use a nuke frame, like everyone else. 

When Mesa can nuke level 200 enemies on SP, let me know. 

[randomCasualPlayer]

Hmm .... well, the 4th being aimbot shouldn't be too far from gunslinger-based, I think?
I do love if it's a slower but harder hitting tho . ... too bad the lore(? the one in wiki is the lore, right?) said she's the fastest guns in stars _(:3」

Hmm .... making it manual aiming (slower but hard hitting shots tho) would be fun too, I guess. Since that means it can be used on capture target .... and maybe add bonus (on top of high damage) for skillful play or something ..... like ..... headshots have guaranteed crit and :

Spoiler

ignoring armor calculation please lol

Either way ..... If Mesa will change or not, I'll just enjoy what I have for now (63% Mesa (and Prime combined) usage in log .... I only have a few frames, no time to farm non-interesting ones) _(:3」Since part of the thing I played Mesa .... dual-pistol-based-class looks cool XD

R.I.P. my arcane Velocity if they changed it to slow hard hitting tho _(:3」

[selig_fay]

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That's not a misconception, the fact that "Helminth is already exist" is precisely why the danger is present, as clearly people are already making the excuse I mentioned. From now on, every time someone mentions that a frame has a bad ability, there will inevitably be people who will retort that they should just Helminth it out, and I'm willing to bet some people will even make that excuse for frames with more than one dead ability, despite the impossibility of replacing them all. Mentioning bad reworks itself does not prevent the fact that DE does good reworks when they put a genuine amount of care and effort into them, which didn't happen with Nyx but certainly happened with Nezha and Wukong.

At the same time that Wucong got a good rework, he needs rework again, because the game has changed and now his ability to work with bugs. 

Nobody argues with you that bad ability is a bad thing. I'm pointing out the fact that helminth has nothing to do with it. But helminth is what allows us to give up bad abilities.

On the other hand, pablo did all the good reworks and few expected them (especially saryn). But those rework that the community screamed about went either badly, or they cannot be called reworks, because nothing was reworked, but only received a little buff. So, I don't think if the community calms down a bit with helminth, it will change anything. I think it's even good, because the developers will get less pressure. And I prefer 1-2 good reworks per year than 10 bad revisits.

[Famecans]

I have a build to solo stell path [void/mot] but passemakers is slow and lock skills 2 and 3

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

And why are high punch through hand cannons not unique? We don't have any in the game.

Umm yes we do. Punch thru is a mod for any ranged weapon. 

 

6 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

The current Regulators don't even fit Mesa's theme. That's not what a Wild West Cowboy held, that's not how a revolver works, so why is catering to the frame's theme not "unique", I wonder?

Umm Roland Deschain? Before your time? How bout the clerks in equilibrium? This is a sci fi fantasy space shooter. Everything about Mesa screams vagabond gunslinger down to the sound she makeS when activating SS. 
Regulators don’t fit Mesa’s theme? 

before your time too? 
 

OP all that said nvm your rework idea directly contradicts Mesa’s Profile vid:advertising. 

“Mesa has the fastest guns in the stars”

 

It’s time to stop trying to alt a frame into a completely different frame. Go ask for a completely different frame in fan concepts. Mesa is fine. 

[IamLoco]

15 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Context:

  Hide contents

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, haven't searched, I am coming off of a discussion I've had with some of my friends regarding Mesa. 

She is supposed to be the "Cowboy/Sheriff" frame, the "Wild West meets Space Magic" concoction, right?

I don't think I was the only one who got Mesa back in the day based on the high amounts of praise she received as being an outstanding DPS frame with very high survivability and some useful CC added on top, right?

I didn't notice the Peacemakers until I got her and didn't really think of it ever since, but after playing some other games, I can't help but notice how underwhelming her revolvers are. 

They're simply put...machine guns...and aimbots at that. They are effective, yes, but they are so boring to use, I find myself avoiding Mesa all together these days. 

 

Here's a rework idea for her Peacemakers that me and my friends came up with. I'm curious if other players feel the same about Mesa and think that she needs a design change. 

Why not have the Peacemakers be exalted moddable revolvers( basically as they are now) with no aimbot, and a slow fire rate, but high punch (hand cannon style) with about 50-100m worth of punch through (not Zenith Infinite)? The focus mechanic could be changed to ramping the damage until the ability is canceled or the guns holstered.

This idea also stemmed from the misleading archetype given to the Athodai...hand cannon. That was no hand cannon...closest thing we have to one is Lex Prime. 

I think it's time we actually got slow firing, high damage, boom sounding, good feeling hand cannons and I think Mesa is the perfect candidate for bringing them into the game.

 

No, absolutely not.

If you don´t enjoy Mesa, play something else.