Mesa's Peacemakers (4) - Extremely effective DPS, but fundamentally flawed and not fun

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, SpaceWalker0109 said:

You quoted me out of context, She is only chosen because of how OP she is. I doubt you can deny she can kill everything while everyone else sits on their hands.

Idk how “Mesa is a terrible DPS frame” can be taken out of context.

[Raikh]

The reason people use Mesa is because Peacemaker blows up rooms (up to a certain degree). If you make Peacemaker regular weapons, even if they have a decent gimmick it removes precisely what players seek her out for.

Just look at Ash's Bladestorm. They made that thing manual and all it did was make it clunky and weak. Not even encessarily weak because of the damage but because of how long it takes to apply that damage and it blurrying the lines between where its a decent ability and just nto worth casting because you mgiht as well jsut shoot when you already have to point at the enemy directly.

Unless you could somehow create Exalted Revolvers for Mesa that are both more invovled but keep the room coverage at a similar level you will have ahrd time finding enthusiasm, because just another weapon is nto what people play Mesa for. Generally just a weapon that costs energy isn't appealign at all. Exlated Melees see such a heavy decline because of that. Exalted weapons only receive favor if they have additional really destructive elements that clearly set them apart form normal weaponry, quite simply because we already have tons of normal weaponry that we cna use with any frame.

 

[Proscriptor]

16 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Context:

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I don't know if this has been mentioned before, haven't searched, I am coming off of a discussion I've had with some of my friends regarding Mesa. 

She is supposed to be the "Cowboy/Sheriff" frame, the "Wild West meets Space Magic" concoction, right?

I don't think I was the only one who got Mesa back in the day based on the high amounts of praise she received as being an outstanding DPS frame with very high survivability and some useful CC added on top, right?

I didn't notice the Peacemakers until I got her and didn't really think of it ever since, but after playing some other games, I can't help but notice how underwhelming her revolvers are. 

They're simply put...machine guns...and aimbots at that. They are effective, yes, but they are so boring to use, I find myself avoiding Mesa all together these days. 

 

Here's a rework idea for her Peacemakers that me and my friends came up with. I'm curious if other players feel the same about Mesa and think that she needs a design change. 

Why not have the Peacemakers be exalted moddable revolvers( basically as they are now) with no aimbot, and a slow fire rate, but high punch (hand cannon style) with about 50-100m worth of punch through (not Zenith Infinite)? The focus mechanic could be changed to ramping the damage until the ability is canceled or the guns holstered.

This idea also stemmed from the misleading archetype given to the Athodai...hand cannon. That was no hand cannon...closest thing we have to one is Lex Prime. 

I think it's time we actually got slow firing, high damage, boom sounding, good feeling hand cannons and I think Mesa is the perfect candidate for bringing them into the game.

 

your idea is completely arbirary. it's beyond me why would you think that such an arbitrary and nonobligatory, yet radical, change would find significant support. 

what about masses of players who like mesa for what she is? such a waste of time both on your side writing the OP, and mine, reading it. 

[SpaceWalker0109]

2 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

At what level? Forgive me that I do not care much about your pre level 100 sad story. If you are playing low tier content, use a nuke frame, like everyone else. 

When Mesa can nuke level 200 enemies on SP, let me know. 

Mesa is one of best frames even at higher levels, No need to be rude about it. If you dont agree fine, I dont see you responding with ability alternatives. In forums we can say our opinions but that does not mean we should get easily angry. Can we please go back to main topic?

[Teridax68]

3 hours ago, selig_fay said:

At the same time that Wucong got a good rework, he needs rework again, because the game has changed and now his ability to work with bugs. 

Just because of his 4? Are you sure that's not overreacting a little?

3 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Nobody argues with you that bad ability is a bad thing. I'm pointing out the fact that helminth has nothing to do with it. But helminth is what allows us to give up bad abilities.

I think you're missing the point. Of course bad abilities have existed before Helminth, I'm just pointing out that Helminth is now acting as fodder for some people to argue against changing bad abilities.

3 hours ago, selig_fay said:

On the other hand, pablo did all the good reworks and few expected them (especially saryn). But those rework that the community screamed about went either badly, or they cannot be called reworks, because nothing was reworked, but only received a little buff. So, I don't think if the community calms down a bit with helminth, it will change anything. I think it's even good, because the developers will get less pressure. And I prefer 1-2 good reworks per year than 10 bad revisits.

I don't think the community is to blame for the bad reworks, so much as the developers for putting too little effort and care into them. Nyx was clearly not reworked by anyone who truly cared about her, and neither was Titania at that same time. Thus, I don't think we should tell the community to not ask for much-needed reworks, so much as ask for DE to put people who actually care about the frames in charge of their reworks, and give them the time and resources they need to do a good job.

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-09-08 at 2:33 PM, (PS4)thegarada said:

-snip-

When SP is worth caring about, let me know.

DE didn't intend for SP to be endgame, evidenced by the lack of rewards to encourage anyone to go there on top of the fact they even said as much when they released it. Most people will still be in normal mode, doing normal mode things, including SP players once they finish the star chart.

Let's not forget that...
1. You can't open relics in SP
2. You can't farm Liches in SP
3. You can't run Kuva Siphons in SP
4. You can't run Arbitrations in SP
5. You can't run Sorties in SP

All Steel Path did was encourage certain players to surface and pretend that they're better for engaging in a mode nobody cares about, not even DE. Seriously, who in their right mind is going to fight super beefed up tanks only to get the same garbage you can easily farm in normal mode? Masochists and people who want to think they're better than everyone for tolerating it.

----

That rant aside, +1 to OP. Mesa is just another press-4-to-win slag frame that's only good for trivializing the game, especially for teammates, so I support any effort in making her Peacemakers actually require effort to use.

[selig_fay]

23 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

That rant aside, +1 to OP. Mesa is just another press-4-to-win slag frame that's only good for trivializing the game, especially for teammates, so I support any effort in making her Peacemakers actually require effort to use.

Hmm. I don't see how turning peacekeepers into normal weapons will make it better. Given that most melee is mindless eeeeeeeeeeeee, maybe we nerf it too?

[Pizzarugi]

8 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Hmm. I don't see how turning peacekeepers into normal weapons will make it better. Given that most melee is mindless eeeeeeeeeeeee, maybe we nerf it too?

Well I don't see how keeping aimbot is any better. Should we just get rid of LoS while we're at it and let the one Mesa player in the team play the game for us more easily?

Why does it have to be "better"? Why can't we just see Peacemakers for what they are, which is lazy nuking, and do something about it? DE has shown they can do proper nuking with Garuda. :P

DE's been trying to make melee more enjoyable than just mashing E, but they've still not been able to implement anything engaging. At this point, they may have to start taking pages out of popular hack'n'slash games. Honestly I wouldn't object if they took combat mechanics from Dust: An Elysian Tail where different buttons make you attack differently and you can use them together for vastly different combos. And I mean vastly different combos, including launching enemies high in the air so you can start doing aerial combos before slamming them back into the ground or other groups of enemies.

[(PSN)thegarada]

On 2020-09-08 at 5:24 PM, SpaceWalker0109 said:

Mesa is one of best frames even at higher levels, No need to be rude about it. If you dont agree fine, I dont see you responding with ability alternatives. In forums we can say our opinions but that does not mean we should get easily angry. Can we please go back to main topic?

Does she have any bonuses for melee damage? No. Is the survivability top tier? It is alright, but no. Is she the best ranged dps in open world bosses? Also, no. Chroma is much better. Is she the best nuker? No.

Why is there need to for alternatives? There is nothing that needs fixing to begin with. She is a decent for farming mid tier stuff. If anything, her skill 1 needs fixing. 

On 2020-09-08 at 7:14 PM, Pizzarugi said:

-snip-

Just play Saryn or Volt then. They are so much better at clearing low level content anyway. And I would not use Mesa in Kuva Flood, Liches or Arbitration. There are better frames for that. I would not use her for fissures. Pick something that can nuke or melee while moving at 200 speed. The only place, where Mesa is strong is ESO. Even there, Saryn is better. You are saying that I want the game balanced around SP, yet you are adamant to balance it around ESO. If the game is balanced around SP, Mesa would need a major buff. And I do not think Mesa should be buffed.

I dunno how to tell you this, lower game is nuke + movement speed. End game is melee. Mesa is okay nuker, and is not a melee frame. People have to stop thinking they are going into a mission with 3 players and shoot stuff. The game does not work that way, and has not been for years. 

[Proscriptor]

oh i understand what this topic is

a topic for mesa haters cunningly veiled into a "make mesa more fun" topic

[SmokinDice]

20 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

with no aimbot

nope.

[Tesseract7777]

4 hours ago, Raikh said:

The reason people use Mesa is because Peacemaker blows up rooms (up to a certain degree). If you make Peacemaker regular weapons, even if they have a decent gimmick it removes precisely what players seek her out for.

Just look at Ash's Bladestorm. They made that thing manual and all it did was make it clunky and weak. Not even encessarily weak because of the damage but because of how long it takes to apply that damage and it blurrying the lines between where its a decent ability and just nto worth casting because you mgiht as well jsut shoot when you already have to point at the enemy directly.

Unless you could somehow create Exalted Revolvers for Mesa that are both more invovled but keep the room coverage at a similar level you will have ahrd time finding enthusiasm, because just another weapon is nto what people play Mesa for. Generally just a weapon that costs energy isn't appealign at all. Exlated Melees see such a heavy decline because of that. Exalted weapons only receive favor if they have additional really destructive elements that clearly set them apart form normal weaponry, quite simply because we already have tons of normal weaponry that we cna use with any frame.

 

Right. People play Mesa because of ease of use. 

She has actual aimbotting, although not nearly as ease of use as she once had, and stupid long range that isn't gimped by negative range mods. 

If Mesa's ease of use was taken away she would hardly be played anymore, just like Ash is hardly ever used to handle crowds of mobs anymore -- the BS rework years back just slaughtered him. He was a tool of convenience. Even with M4D I don't see anything changing, the reason M4D for example probably won't be nerfed is because base range is only 10 meters and it requires setup so it isn't very convenient or ease of use if your team is killing quickly around you. You will often just lose marked targets before you can even attack them. 

Plenty of Frames have higher damage potential than Mesa, but that convenience...  

They take away the aimbot entirely without leaving it at least in some form (something I don't care about, but to be fair to those who do, DE has allowed it since her release which is years now) and people just won't use Mesa anymore.

[DeLawrence]

Spoiler

5 hours ago, (XB1)YoungGunn82 said:

Umm yes we do. Punch thru is a mod for any ranged weapon. 

 

Umm Roland Deschain? Before your time? How bout the clerks in equilibrium? This is a sci fi fantasy space shooter. Everything about Mesa screams vagabond gunslinger down to the sound she makeS when activating SS. 
Regulators don’t fit Mesa’s theme? 

before your time too? 
 

OP all that said nvm your rework idea directly contradicts Mesa’s Profile vid:advertising. 

“Mesa has the fastest guns in the stars”

 

It’s time to stop trying to alt a frame into a completely different frame. Go ask for a completely different frame in fan concepts. Mesa is fine. 

I like how both your points prove my point exactly...

I've read the first three Dark Tower stories/books, however you'd like to call them and actually seen the bad movie with Idris Elba. It had a very cool shootout scene though, and guess what...Idris wasn't shooting 1000 bullets without reloading from a 6 shooter revolver.

I haven't seen "Young Guns" but looking at the clips, it again proves exactly my point. 

My point was that her Regulators are REVOLVERS and not MACHINE GUNS and that I'd like them to be SLOW firing, HARD HITTING pistols, which is what Revolvers actually are, space fantasy or not.

Not a single clip/movie/book you brought into discussion ever had REVOLVERS SHOOTING AT 1000RPM. 

Even the Warframe profile video you so arrogantly threw into my face proves my point. 

0:17 - She is shooting slowly...killing enemies...SLOWLY and stilishly if I might add.

Later on, when describing her ability, her fire rate goes from SLOW to at most "Fan the Hammer" speed. 

Now go and look at any in-game Mesa...what you'll see is a spastic goat shooting 1000RPM machine guns from 2 little revolvers. The whole stilish pose change?! Non existent...since the fire rate overwrites the animation.

 

"Fatest guns in the stars" is a refference to "Fastest hand in the west" which means draw and shoot speed, not fire rate...but I guess that was...before your time?

[selig_fay]

5 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Well I don't see how keeping aimbot is any better. Should we just get rid of LoS while we're at it and let the one Mesa player in the team play the game for us more easily?

Why does it have to be "better"? Why can't we just see Peacemakers for what they are, which is lazy nuking, and do something about it? DE has shown they can do proper nuking with Garuda. :P

Well, there are pros and cons. Garuda dominates narrow corridors (although it's kind of said that it dominates nothing), while mesa requires a direct view. Garuda mobilizes well, while Mesa restricts movement. And Garuda has scaling (although right now it looks like it doesn't), while Mesa doesn't. Well, as I said earlier, if enemies start to climb out of all the cracks and literally appear next to the players, mesa will suffer the most in this, because the CC is weak and there is no melee and aoe protection. I think Mesa is well balanced in this regard. Yes, she can put down groups of mobs, but that's literally the only thing she's good at. And there are many comparisons of frames that make the game boring, like Vauban or Octavia, which have a lot more than Mesa. Mesa can't be everywhere like Saryn spores. 

Basically, I don't know how to play Mesa because it's 0.0%, but I don't think it's strong because it has a lot of drawbacks. Maybe this could be done with a better aimbot mechanic, like in borderlands, where you throw an AOE scanner that marks enemies and all the bullets of your weapon will find the marked enemies themselves. Maybe it would be better than just a turret. But I don't know.

[Raikh]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb DeLawrence:

Now go and look at any in-game Mesa...what you'll see is a spastic goat shooting 1000RPM machine guns from 2 little revolvers. The whole stilish pose change?! Non existent...since the fire rate overwrites the animation.

While Mesa clearly is based on a gunslinger her Peacemaker is modeled after Gun Kata from the movie Equilibrium which indeed involves automatic pistols. Originally her Peacemaker wasn't an exalted weapon but a fully automatic 360 degree AoE with ~50m radius (that also did pathetic damage, hecne the rework to what it is now).  The original version then properly showed the Gun Kata movements which is lost to a degree now as you are directing where she shoots.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

20 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Idris wasn't shooting 1000 bullets without reloading from a 6 shooter revolver.

You should do a little more research on Roland Deschain. Yes he reloaded, could u see him reload, no. Re read those books. Fun fact there is a reload stat on her PMs, but she’s so fast we can’t see her reload. 

 

20 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

She is shooting slowly...killing enemies...SLOWLY and stilishly if I might add.

That was the ramp up . 
 

 

20 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

Fan the Hammer"

We have one of those in Pandero 

 

20 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

I'd like them to be SLOW firing, HARD HITTING pistols, which is what Revolvers actually are, space fantasy or not.

Nothing about space fantasy horde shooter is suppose to be slow. Warframe isn’t slow. Jerry Miculek isn’t slow, install void logic and arcane velocity magic in Jerry and we would have the exact same thing we have now. lol 😂/s

That said this space fantasy horde shooter. Mesa shoots void magic. Nothing about your “rework” makes any sense, fantasy or not. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

1000RPM machine guns from 2 little revolvers.

She shoots void magic. And shoots so fast it sounds like a machine gun. That happens when you shoot fast. Revolver or not. And “little” ? Lol. Also fun fact they only became revolvers when her Prime was released. Originally the were “finger guns” or “hidden slinger pistols”.  

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

which means draw and shoot speed, not fire rate...

Her PMs are attached to her forearms. There is no draw. Ever seen desperado? 
This is a fantasy space horde shooter.  We don’t have holsters. Fastest guns in the stars in fact means fire rate.  But you must have missed that. It’s ok. 

[blazinvire]

Eh, if they wanted to embrace the Gun Kata vibe they should've turned Mesa's Regulators into something that wasn't an aimbot-rapidfire-sniper-rifle.
Not saying they shouldn't go Gun Kata, but it's hard to have that effect if your enemies are dying the moment they enter line of sight.
Mesa's Waltz also made me sad that they took away her animations...

Anyway, I feel like lack of engagement is the true issue behind it all, where before we had zero engagement of just holding down the trigger 'til the room was empty, now we have hold down trigger and spin spasmodically, occasionally restarting the ability.

I think DE tried to merge the ideas of Clint Eastwood's Peacemaker with Equilibrium's Gun Kata, which is problematic since Peacemaker is more High Noon and Gun Kata is Ninja with a Gun.  Perhaps separating them for a moment would help clear up the theme, and give Mesa the option of both a High Noon style burst, or a omni-directional barrage while moving.
In fact, why don't we also get a melee option for our Regulators?  Point-blank Gun-fu acrobatics is kind of Gun Kata's bread-n-butter, letting us be aggressive in melee range instead of trying to back up to get a clear shot.

[Teridax68]

19 hours ago, DeLawrence said:

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My point was that her Regulators are REVOLVERS and not MACHINE GUNS and that I'd like them to be SLOW firing, HARD HITTING pistols, which is what Revolvers actually are, space fantasy or not. 

I honestly feel this is a moot point, given that many players seem to like Mesa's rapid-fire Peacemakers, plus firing extremely quickly with a gun is something that can be seen in Equilibrium, plus many westerns, to the point where it became a trope for a time with the aimbot mark-for-death mechanic in Red Dead Redemption and then Overwatch (plus Warframe). I can very much agree with you that precise shooting isn't really rewarded in Mesa's kit, and that is something I feel ought to be encouraged somewhere else in her kit, e.g. her 1 or even her passive (e.g. headshots grant a stacking gun damage multiplier for a very short duration). However, I think her 4's rapid-fire shooting itself has a cool factor of its own... or at least would, if its constant availability didn't make it so mundane. I also think that, in terms of really general balance, it's not all that important whether Mesa gets to fire her guns hard or quick, and in terms of flavor she might as well get to do both.

[selig_fay]

46 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I honestly feel this is a moot point, given that many players seem to like Mesa's rapid-fire Peacemakers, plus firing extremely quickly with a gun is something that can be seen in Equilibrium, plus many westerns, to the point where it became a trope for a time with the aimbot mark-for-death mechanic in Red Dead Redemption and then Overwatch (plus Warframe). I can very much agree with you that precise shooting isn't really rewarded in Mesa's kit, and that is something I feel ought to be encouraged somewhere else in her kit, e.g. her 1 or even her passive (e.g. headshots grant a stacking gun damage multiplier for a very short duration). However, I think her 4's rapid-fire shooting itself has a cool factor of its own... or at least would, if its constant availability didn't make it so mundane. I also think that, in terms of really general balance, it's not all that important whether Mesa gets to fire her guns hard or quick, and in terms of flavor she might as well get to do both.

People don't make rate of fire just because they like it. + 90% rate of fire is a way to actually double your dps. Peacekeepers have infinite ammo, so this is a pure DPS doubling. You will almost never put rate of fire on a weapon with a small store and slow reload.

[Teridax68]

11 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

People don't make rate of fire just because they like it. + 90% rate of fire is a way to actually double your dps. Peacekeepers have infinite ammo, so this is a pure DPS doubling. You will almost never put rate of fire on a weapon with a small store and slow reload.

Whether increasing one's rate of fire makes Peacemaker substantially more powerful is completely irrelevant to the subject of whether or not the added fire rate is enjoyable, which many players find to be the case. The only case you're making here is that players would mod more weapons for fire rate if reloading and ammo didn't get in the way.

[mikakor]

OP.... just go to the right forum category and post your ideas there. which is in fanmade warframes suggestion.

You just don't like how Mesa plays, but there is a lot of people that do. what you want is turning Mesa into NOT mesa. aka a new frame.

Just go create a new frame and let other people have fun without trying to ruin it for them, please. Mesa is just not made for you.

[Kaggelos]

On 2020-09-08 at 2:12 AM, SpaceWalker0109 said:

I personally agree, Mesa's kit is sorta boring in many places.

1st is a lackluster dmg store ability.

2nd is a press and forget CC and Dmg buff.

3rd is a damage reduction, Simple.

4th is just aimbot.

 

I personally feel her kit should have more manual stuff, Like replace her 2 with flashbang that gives a damage buff if you stun a enemy. (Basically same but its thrown where you are aiming in a arc)

But as for her 4, I can imagine wielding one or two slow firing revolvers that punch through enemies to be quite fun!

 

 

Hard agree on that. Boring doesn't even begin to describe the disappointment i have with this frame. 

 

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

....you know anemic agility exists, right? Increased fire rate at cost of damage, which outside of steel path, still kills everything just fine. It’s actually on Brozime’s build, too. 
Do not fck with Mesa. It seems everything DE touches lately is ruined. A rework for her is a BAD IDEA, and not just because I wouldn’t trust DE to do it right. Of all the frames and you pick that desperately need work, you pick Mesa???  FOR HER REGULATORS? Are you crazy?? I mean I’m sorry because I know you’re entitled to your opinion but...really?! No mention of her 1 ability and how it is unneeded/sucks? I am flabbergasted that someone actually went out of their way to whine about MESA. If you don’t like her, don’t play her. There are other dps frames, Khora is one of my favorites. If they “aren’t as good” as Mesa then that shows that Mesa is in a pretty good place. I LOVE that she’s an auto aim bot. I can really suck at aiming sometimes, which obviously isn’t everyone else’s fault, but it is dam nice to have on occasion/as needed.