I’m still angry that DE nerfed some subsume abilities before they were even released

[k3rrigans]

You cant bring some bad frames "back to life" just by giving them a new ability any other frame has access to, especially not without a good frame taking advantage of it. I as many others was disappointed hearing about said nerf if you want to consider them nerf instead of balance but you need to understand it had to be done. Don't look at those abilities from the point of view of a bad frame with roar for example, instead think of a mesa with roar that would have been unbalanced  , Protea with larva is still OP even with that small range. 

 

Just get over it MarissaGNWalker, its a good thing they done it before release and not after. 

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

1 hour ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

28 years, MR15, 2395 hours played on my profile. Anything else? You can check it in game if you want...

And yes, you're really naive if you think that anyone would use a buffed Decoy as much as a straight 100% damage buff like Roar. Doesn't matter how much DE buff Decoy or any other mobility or decoy skill like ripline, airburst,

This "nerf nothing, buff everything" mentality doesn't work.

Please, tell us how would you buff Decoy to be as usable as Rhino's Roar giving 145% more damage at 200% pwr str?

Omg. The problem isn’t me being naive, it’s your inability to read. I NEVER SAID NERF NOTHING. I said buff everything, THEN nerf. I wouldn’t be pissed off at all if the other abilities were even remotely desirable. Buff doesn’t always mean increases damage, it means making the original item better. The problem is that decoy sucks. If they wanted us to chose roar less and decoy more they need to Rework decoy (“buff”). If you make decoy have more taunt or DR or CC or basically anything else then I’m sure a hell of a lot more people would pick it. 

If I metaphorically I were to look over a bunch of tools, of course I’m going to pick the ones that are shinier, less chipped, more colorful, more useful, less broken. Apparently DE looks at the tools in front of them and says “oh crap, no one likes the dinky tools” and instead of repairing or repainting or sharpening the old/bad tools, they take sandpaper and a hammer to the good ones to make them blend in better and think we will still pick the broken tools. 

Doesn’t make sense, does it?

It’s the principle of the thing. They should have thought all of this out and tested it before they even announced which abilities they were going to give us instead of dangling an amazing exciting  thing in front of us only to smother crap on it.  

Anything else? 😒

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

Where are you getting 1.5x armor? According to the wiki, Defy gives flat armor based on damage absorbed during the invulnerability period, capping at 750-1500. The former is for subsumed version. The only 1.5x I see is a damage absorption multiplier to help build the armor faster. 750 armor is 71% DR. Combine that with 200% power strength and T5 Arcane Guardian (900 armor) and you've got 2525 armor on Trinity, which is 89.38% DR. Let's not forget her Link if you wanna go crazy with DR on top of high armor.

Now imagine giving that to a high DPS nuke frame. Not only are they capable of nuking rooms for next to no effort, they're near-invulnerable while they do it.

Near invulnerable is a huge stretch. But I do appreciate the correction. If what you say is true, which I believe it is, then as usual DE has not explained anything well. Looking at the ability it says “armor multiplier,” which is why I did the math that I did. I guess I’m just going to have to risk the materials and put it on another frame to see how it performs. It does not say what the maximum armor is, which is ridiculous and makes no logical sense. 
thanks

[Pizzarugi]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)MarissaGNWalker said:

Near invulnerable is a huge stretch.

You say that, but let's take Mesa as an example.

At base level, her Shatter Shield is 80% DR. It can be modded to 95%. That gives her 19,980 EHP. Mesa Prime has the same armor as Trinity Prime. If given T5 Arcane Guardian and replace her 1 with Defy, that gives her 2525 armor as well.

Now this is where my math is going to suck and I hope someone can correct me on this...

999 HP / 0.1062 (Armor DR) / 0.05 (Shatter Shield's max DR) = 188,135 EHP

Mesa is a stone's throw away from being similar to Inaros with 7992 HP, T3 umbral armor, Adaptation, and T5 Arcane Guardian (555,000 EHP for those curious).

So, 188k EHP + Peacemakers = BROKEN AS F

Keep in mind this is after Defy's subsume nerf.

Other frames like Saryn Prime could also reach close to this EHP if they pick up Adaptation.

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

I’m going to write one last post and leave it at that unless anyone has questions. 

I’m not disagreeing with most of you. I am surprised by the feedback, though. I can’t believe I am the only one disappointed by this. And to clarify yet again, I am more so disappointed by how DE handled the entire thing. They didn’t announce the nerfs as they revealed which Warframe abilities they were giving us like they did with Ivara, so we were able to simmer for weeks with excitement about the abilities and possibilities that were later nerfed. Which is as per usual lack of thought or planning on DE’s part. It felt rotten, is all. I am disappointed at WHY they did it, not because they did it. I understand the need for balance, I stated multiple times that they made a good call on nerfing most of these, the problem is how badly they’ve nerfed some of them, as is the DE way. Nerf it to the floor instead of simply just reducing it, or instead buffing/reworking the abilities that suck so that we will want to use those more/instead. They should have given us Rhino charge instead of roar if they were so afraid of frames being overpowered. 

DE talked more about how no one else was picking the bad abilities then they did about potential balance issues. Well, no sht. Anyone who would pick Nova’s 1 before Defy would be crazy. Solution? Make Nova’s 1 not suck. Not make defy worse. 
 

Thanks for y’all’s time. Take care and happy gaming

[(PSN)MaGanicGo]

12 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You say that, but let's take Mesa as an example.

At base level, her Shatter Shield is 80% DR. It can be modded to 95%. That gives her 19,980 EHP. Mesa Prime has the same armor as Trinity Prime. If given T5 Arcane Guardian and replace her 1 with Defy, that gives her 2525 armor as well.

Now this is where my math is going to suck and I hope someone can correct me on this...

999 HP / 0.1062 (Armor DR) / 0.05 (Shatter Shield's max DR) = 188,135 EHP

Mesa is a stone's throw away from being similar to Inaros with 7992 HP, T3 umbral armor, Adaptation, and T5 Arcane Guardian (555,000 EHP for those curious).

So, 188k EHP + Peacemakers = BROKEN AS F

Keep in mind this is after Defy's subsume nerf.

Other frames like Saryn Prime could also reach close to this EHP if they pick up Adaptation.

DE mentioned they were not going to let DR abilities stack, if they did, then that’s their fault, not defy’s. In this example we would not be allowed to have defy AND shatter shield if they stuck to what they said

[Pizzarugi]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)MarissaGNWalker said:

DE mentioned they were not going to let DR abilities stack, if they did, then that’s their fault, not defy’s. In this example we would not be allowed to have defy AND shatter shield if they stuck to what they said

I thought they were talking about damage buffs and not DR buffs.

Because Roar + Vex Armor is far more broken than Defy + Scarab Armor/Shatter Shield.

[Leqesai]

I haven't read through this thread but I've got to say, the reduced efficiency of some abilities is hardly a game-breaker. IMO it is perfectly reasonable to have the super-buff abilities not be as effective on other frames. 

Initially I was unsure of this, like many of you, but roar and warcry have both been effective on the frames I've put them on. Frames/builds that were ALREADY good. The abilities, even at 50% efficiency are still only making those already good builds better.

[Nailclipper]

I find OP's reaction interesting. She/he prefers to get Rhino Charge as logically expected rather than being hyped then disappointed by a nerfed Roar although it's still more useful.

And this is a lesson for game devs and all of us I guess, that we should be careful about building expectation, even if it's unintended.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I'm not so mad about the ability nerfs as i am the fact we can't choose ANY warframe powers we want.

 the ultimates are off limits but the rest should be free game.

so it makes sense that the copy and paste abilities are weaker compared to the original frames that own them

and it makes sense we can't have multiple power up abilities on one frame

but again we should be able to have ANY one ability per config

 

my biggest complaint is there are a lot of crap abilities that DE picked that i just don't think will be worth replacing on most frames.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

There was absolutely zero chance of them not being nerfed, it was only a matter of whether you already spent the resources and changed your build or not.

I'm only mad they didn't make improvements to more of the base abilities on that list that needed it.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

17 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

DE hadn't even released them yet. 

They let you in on the development process. 

Some people didn't like the nerfs, but a lot of people actually were telling DE loudly that they would almost certainly nerf them later, and should do it now to avoid future balance issues or upset players who already made an investment.

Yours is not the only opinion. 

You are now dumping all over them because they let you in on the development process, but didn't choose your opinion as the correct one, that's the bottom line. You knew it was a developer workshop which means they are letting you in on a brainstorming session in good faith that you won't freak out on them if things change before release. With all respect, I think you create your own negative mentality here, by creating a false expectation. You started investing in your head, maybe even building Rhino or whatever and getting all prepared, before the Developer Workshop was even finished and then got angry when they decided to change things before release. You were let in on something that was advertised as "Work in Progress" what right do you have to be angry that it was not exactly what it started out as? 

Maybe you shouldn't listen to news about or take part in Developer Workshops and wait until final release to look at content if you are incapable of taking part in an active development process without "utterly breaking" if things don't go exactly your way or how you expected. 

They didn't "let us in" on anything.  People didn't take the time to think about what abilities would actually fit where and how that would impact the kits.  They just saw what abilities are considered good and cried about potential OPness.  Hilarious to think that anyone could seriously believe giving someone 1500 armor to any frame would be anything close to strong.

17 hours ago, Oggyswe said:

hey rather pre nerf and potential for buff without loss of investment. rather then nerf after people invested. or am i wrong in that reasoning?

This assumes DE won't make any changes to abilities post release.  Which they almost assuredly will.

17 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

It's pretty much an "everything is subject to change and balance before and after release" kind of deal. You didn't honestly expect abilities designed with a coherent kit in mind on a single Warframe to function completely the same on 43 other Warframes with their own set of powers, did you?

There's a difference between altering the abilities functionality a bit so it can actually work on other frames (ex banish) and just changing it's stats.

17 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

I'm all for power. But controlled power.

I say this because from experience if players can take the easy way, they generally will. For example, I usually play Sims with cheats, and played my second Skyrim playthrough with mods. It can be fun for a while, but it sucks out all the fun in the long run when everything is handed to you. And this specific part is on me, since I chose to go that way, even though I accept it and still enjoy it to an extent.

It's not exactly the same with Warframe, but as I said, some imbalances are just too blatant and disrupt the game either for the reason I stated above, or because it affects other players in the team and their fun. I was just surprised that DE even chose abilities like Roar or Warcry, and when the nerfs came I was surprised there wasn't even more nerfs at the time - like Ensnare - and was just grateful that they were left untouched.

Still, I am making no mistake. I'm expecting further tweaks on subsumed abilities, for both good and worse. DE may have softened the blow by making it a preemptive strike, but it doesn't mean player investment won't still be affected in the future. Be prepared for everything.

If any one of the abilities DE nerfed was actually considered too strong then they shouldn't have been chosen for subsuming.  I don't enjoy assuming DE is ignorant of their own game so I can only assume they knew these abilities would be strong picks.  So their inclusion was to let us try out the system and give them data/feedback on it.  But instead of even giving a chance they responded to knee jerk reactions.  It wouldn't have mattered if Roar, Larva, and Eclipse were the strongest.  They could've left them as is and make other options more appealing and THEN adjust as needed.

16 hours ago, Nailclipper said:

At the time of the development before release, some of the negative feedback actually came from us. Not everyone was excited that DE wanted to give subsumable Roar, for example.

Yes I was one of them.  I wanted a different ability from his kit.  DE should've given us a different one instead of Roar.  That doesn't excuse the nerf.

16 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm guessing they certainly will and figure the data they can collect from this will help them understand what powers need to tuned. 

But we also gotta give them time. Meaningful data collection is going to take at least 3-6 months and then they have to take the time to act on it carefully. 

They should've let the system run wild first and collect data.  Instead of knee jerk reacting to people who do not know the first thing about making builds.

16 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

It reminds me of a game dev quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of the game".

This is why the nerfs happened. Nobody would pick anything else and why would they? Invulnerability time and huge armor with Defy? Free health/ammo/energy Dispensary? High range one-use Vortex called Larva? A 50% damage multiplier Roar that behaves like faction damage mods? Everyone would just dive for these 6 abilities and not bother with touching anything else.

Safer to nerf them. From there, DE can read on the popularity of these chosen subsumed abilities and perhaps make buffs down the road to make them more desirable.

Laughable that you'd think 1500 armor makes a lick of difference.  Squish frames don't have the HP bar to really take advantage of it.  Sure you could bolster that armor number higher with arcanes and what not.  But there's plenty of other ways in game to already make the effective EHP of frames high.  Defy is a terrible ability and only works for wukong because of the way his kit is.  Don't quite get why you think dispensary is anywhere close to being problematic.  We never have ammo problems already.  Operators trivalize healing.  And energy hasn't been a problem for years.  The only ability that got nerfed that is semi understandable is roar.  and in that case or any of the other abilities if they are too problematic by design should've not been choices to begin with.  Nerfing these abilities has not changed what people will pick.  The frames that benefitted the most from these abilities still do because they already spec into the stats that benefit the ability.

Nerfing roar does not make ice wave, decoy, or air burst more appealing to me.

16 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Brozime thrives on finding a negative in everything. It's his shtick, it's how he gets views. I'm not saying all his video's are negative, but he seems to come up every time there is something people are whinging about. 

I don't want to watch Youtube videos. Can you sum up what Brozime's point is for me please? If it's a valid, credible point, it should be repeatable by those who watched and understood it without needing to watch a video. 

Also, I think you have some false impression and I'm not sure where you got them, are you getting your info from youtube or official DE releases?

Rebecca stated when the "pre-nerfs" were announced, that it wasn't just player feedback but their own internal in house testers gravitating to those abilities more than anything, and not to blame it on the community. 

Second: DE is a successful company, the fact you think otherwise is strange... where is your evidence they are barely staying afloat? You seem to have some strange assumptions and I'm really not sure where you got them. 

If Warframe was barely staying afloat, why would Tencent even consider buying a package that was largely shares in said company? 

People often misconstrue his constructive criticism for negativity.  The man does not hate the game or the devs.  He just doesn't sugar coat things when there is a clear problem.  Zime's stance on the situation was simple.  DE nerfing to increase diversity doesn't work because the abilities people were not going to pick are poor by design.  It makes more sense to buff said abilities.  Because this means not only do we have a wider range of appealing choices but it also means kits likely won't have a "free" slot to just slap an ability on.  This would make player choice more interesting and meaningful.   Right now it's "of course you picked roar"  Not "why did you take roar over x?"

If DE had done internal testing and figured out the abilities were problematic by design then they shouldn't have been choices to begin with.  I'd rather take Charge or iron skin over a nerfed Roar.  And Zime also argued this.

15 hours ago, Divinehero said:

tbh the "nerfed" subsumed abilities make sense.. full power stuff like roar warcry larva etc would be absolutely ridiculous on some other frames... to think otherwise is silly

Breach surge is quite insane on Garuda and Saryn.  But it was left untouched because people didn't cry about it.  If there's a really good synergy with one or two frames but it's okay on others THAT'S a good thing.

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Where are you getting 1.5x armor? According to the wiki, Defy gives flat armor based on damage absorbed during the invulnerability period, capping at 750-1500. The former is for subsumed version. The only 1.5x I see is a damage absorption multiplier to help build the armor faster. 750 armor is 71% DR. Combine that with 200% power strength and T5 Arcane Guardian (900 armor) and you've got 2525 armor on Trinity, which is 89.38% DR. Let's not forget her Link if you wanna go crazy with DR on top of high armor.

Now imagine giving that to a high DPS nuke frame. Not only are they capable of nuking rooms for next to no effort, they're near-invulnerable while they do it.

Trinity was already nearly unkillable.  Giving her defy wouldn't have made much of a difference.  And that goes for any frame that can already nuke relatively easy.  No need for armor or CC potential if your base kit is already good at killing rooms quickly and efficiently.  Inaros got insanely tankier with elemental ward.  Why arnt you complaining about that?

14 hours ago, --F--NerevarCM said:

28 years, MR15, 2395 hours played on my profile. Anything else? You can check it in game if you want...

And yes, you're really naive if you think that anyone would use a buffed Decoy as much as a straight 100% damage buff like Roar. Doesn't matter how much DE buff Decoy or any other mobility or decoy skill like ripline, airburst,

This "nerf nothing, buff everything" mentality doesn't work.

Please, tell us how would you buff Decoy to be as usable as Rhino's Roar giving 145% more damage at 200% pwr str?

Except none of us complaining are completely against nerfs.  They just have to make sense.  DE handled it poorly.  If Roar is considered problematic by design then it shouldn't have been a potential choice.  It's also upsetting that you can recognize some abilities are poor in design like Decoy.  Yet you support DE essentially taking away options from other frames via these nerfs rather than expanding them by making player choice more meaningful.  A nerfed roar is still going to be more appealing to frames that spec into those stats than most other abilities.  The correct response was to not pick roar as Rhino's subsume ability.  Not make Roar a non option for some frames.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

18 hours ago, k3rrigans said:

You cant bring some bad frames "back to life" just by giving them a new ability any other frame has access to, especially not without a good frame taking advantage of it. I as many others was disappointed hearing about said nerf if you want to consider them nerf instead of balance but you need to understand it had to be done. Don't look at those abilities from the point of view of a bad frame with roar for example, instead think of a mesa with roar that would have been unbalanced  , Protea with larva is still OP even with that small range. 

 

Just get over it MarissaGNWalker, its a good thing they done it before release and not after. 

They could've done many other things before nerfing.  Mesa doesn't need roar right now and if you knew how to min max her you'd know that Roar wouldn't have been the best pick for her.

16 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You say that, but let's take Mesa as an example.

At base level, her Shatter Shield is 80% DR. It can be modded to 95%. That gives her 19,980 EHP. Mesa Prime has the same armor as Trinity Prime. If given T5 Arcane Guardian and replace her 1 with Defy, that gives her 2525 armor as well.

Now this is where my math is going to suck and I hope someone can correct me on this...

999 HP / 0.1062 (Armor DR) / 0.05 (Shatter Shield's max DR) = 188,135 EHP

Mesa is a stone's throw away from being similar to Inaros with 7992 HP, T3 umbral armor, Adaptation, and T5 Arcane Guardian (555,000 EHP for those curious).

So, 188k EHP + Peacemakers = BROKEN AS F

Keep in mind this is after Defy's subsume nerf.

Other frames like Saryn Prime could also reach close to this EHP if they pick up Adaptation.

Pillage is far better for Mesa than Defy ever would've been.  Not only does it still give her an insane amount of EHP.  (like actually a couple of inaros's worth,) but she gets to abuse the shield gating with it, and strip armor defenses at the same time.  Defy is garbage and always has been.  You'd get more mileage out of rolling guard and operator healing on squishy frames than straight armor increases.

16 hours ago, (PS4)MarissaGNWalker said:

I’m going to write one last post and leave it at that unless anyone has questions. 

I’m not disagreeing with most of you. I am surprised by the feedback, though. I can’t believe I am the only one disappointed by this. And to clarify yet again, I am more so disappointed by how DE handled the entire thing. They didn’t announce the nerfs as they revealed which Warframe abilities they were giving us like they did with Ivara, so we were able to simmer for weeks with excitement about the abilities and possibilities that were later nerfed. Which is as per usual lack of thought or planning on DE’s part. It felt rotten, is all. I am disappointed at WHY they did it, not because they did it. I understand the need for balance, I stated multiple times that they made a good call on nerfing most of these, the problem is how badly they’ve nerfed some of them, as is the DE way. Nerf it to the floor instead of simply just reducing it, or instead buffing/reworking the abilities that suck so that we will want to use those more/instead. They should have given us Rhino charge instead of roar if they were so afraid of frames being overpowered. 

DE talked more about how no one else was picking the bad abilities then they did about potential balance issues. Well, no sht. Anyone who would pick Nova’s 1 before Defy would be crazy. Solution? Make Nova’s 1 not suck. Not make defy worse. 
 

Thanks for y’all’s time. Take care and happy gaming

You're not.  The forum is just littered with white knights for DE.

14 hours ago, Leqesai said:

I haven't read through this thread but I've got to say, the reduced efficiency of some abilities is hardly a game-breaker. IMO it is perfectly reasonable to have the super-buff abilities not be as effective on other frames. 

Initially I was unsure of this, like many of you, but roar and warcry have both been effective on the frames I've put them on. Frames/builds that were ALREADY good. The abilities, even at 50% efficiency are still only making those already good builds better.

If anything that should be an indication to you that the nerfs didn't do the job which was to increase diversity.  

10 hours ago, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I'm not so mad about the ability nerfs as i am the fact we can't choose ANY warframe powers we want.

 the ultimates are off limits but the rest should be free game.

so it makes sense that the copy and paste abilities are weaker compared to the original frames that own them

and it makes sense we can't have multiple power up abilities on one frame

but again we should be able to have ANY one ability per config

 

my biggest complaint is there are a lot of crap abilities that DE picked that i just don't think will be worth replacing on most frames.

I agree.  I feel like the current system is far too restrictive.  I could've accepted the nerfs if they made since post data collection and devs attempting to make other poor abilities great.  Nerfing first before even getting to try it just gives a bad taste.

[denis-ldv]

14 часов назад, Pizzarugi сказал:

that gives her 2525 armor as well.

Strength doesn't affect 750 armor cap. So it is 1775 armor for Mesa Prime.

And Shatter Shield doesn't protect from AoE and Melee, btw 🙂

[LuckyCharm]

To be honest i think it was downright dirty that they nerfed the abilities. Sure they were powerful abilities but DE knew that when picking them. Every single one of the frames who had nerfed subsumed enemies had other options of abilities that wouldnt have needed a nerf. They might not have been strong or useful abilities but thats sort of what the whole pre-buffing was for with well of life etc. Id much rather have taken weak underused abilities and gotten them buffed than just nerfing things before we even get to try them.  

 

[Pizzarugi]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Inaros got insanely tankier with elemental ward.  Why arnt you complaining about that?

When tanks trivialize the game for everyone in the team and not just themselves, I'll get back to you on that.

Also, getting 734,558 EHP (compared to 555,000 before Elemental Ward + 200% power strength, a 179,558 difference) isn't insanely tankier.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Pillage is far better for Mesa than Defy ever would've been.  Not only does it still give her an insane amount of EHP.  (like actually a couple of inaros's worth,) but she gets to abuse the shield gating with it, and strip armor defenses at the same time.  Defy is garbage and always has been.  You'd get more mileage out of rolling guard and operator healing on squishy frames than straight armor increases.

I get the shield gating, but you're going to have to explain how 1,200 overshields gives Mesa that much EHP. Assuming you're not using Redirection, that only gives her 1,425 total shield which doesn't benefit from armor.

999 / 0.2264 (Armor DR with T5 Arcane Guardian) = 4,412
4,412 / 0.05 (Shatter Shield DR) = 88,240
1,425 (Total shields with overshield) / 0.05 = 28,500
88,240 + 28,500 = 116,740 EHP

That's less than the Defy-boosted armor EHP setup by a couple tens of thousands (after calculating the correction provided by @denis-ldv which turns out to be 138,160). If you're only using Pillage to abuse shieldgating, effectively giving Mesa infinite EHP so long as enemies are nearby and she has the energy to keep spamming that, I can see your point.

Now I'm more than willing to admit math isn't my strong point. If I'm fudging up the calculation somewhere, and you can show me where I went wrong, I'll concede.

You would absolutely not get more out of Rolling Guard, a mod that grants 3s invulnerability before going on a 7s cooldown. Combining high armor with a DR skill supported by Operator healing is more effective. Adaptation would be better.

[selig_fay]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:12 PM, Pizzarugi said:

This is why the nerfs happened. Nobody would pick anything else and why would they? Invulnerability time and huge armor with Defy? Free health/ammo/energy Dispensary? High range one-use Vortex called Larva? A 50% damage multiplier Roar that behaves like faction damage mods? Everyone would just dive for these 6 abilities and not bother with touching anything else.

This is still the case. Nerf defy didn't make elemental ward a nicer choice. People planned to use it anyway. Ditto for roar vs smite. Smite was already over 50% Roar unless you plan on buffing your abilities. The only nice change is the well of life buff, which basically now stands well against the bloody altar.

The problem is that some abilities remain useless. But I think the big problem is people reading more than experimenting. But it will fix it by itself with the help of content creators who find unexpected combinations.

[MasterBurik]

@Pizzarugi iirc, Shatter Shield DR is applied to Mesa's health and to her shields.

 

Edit: Nevermind. Wasn't reading the math right.

[Pizzarugi]

3 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

@Pizzarugi iirc, Shatter Shield DR is applied to Mesa's health and to her shields.

Correct, and I did factor that into the calculation.

8 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

1,425 (Total shields with overshield) / 0.05 = 28,500

0.05 is the DR of Shatter Shield, assuming it's at the 95% cap.

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Didn't bother reading. Nerfing good abilities is bad, buffing bad ones is good. Seems like DE has BIG problems admitting that most of the abilities they made so far just don't fit their own game and either don't see or pretend that they don't see it.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

When tanks trivialize the game for everyone in the team and not just themselves, I'll get back to you on that.

Also, getting 734,558 EHP (compared to 555,000 before Elemental Ward + 200% power strength, a 179,558 difference) isn't insanely tankier.

The reason why I mentioned Inaros+ward is because you were putting an emphasis on how bad for balance it would be to have nuking capable frames have survivability.  When said nuking frames don't particularly need it for any normal mundane content.  I also don't think the distinction between trivializing for yourself or for others really matters.  WF has been in a constant push to self sustainability.  Even if that weren't a think if you have one person on your group that can never die he still cheeses it for his team because he can always revive them.  As far as the numbers go are you factoring in the health ward or the ice ward?  And what mods are you considering.

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I get the shield gating, but you're going to have to explain how 1,200 overshields gives Mesa that much EHP. Assuming you're not using Redirection, that only gives her 1,425 total shield which doesn't benefit from armor.

999 / 0.2264 (Armor DR with T5 Arcane Guardian) = 4,412
4,412 / 0.05 (Shatter Shield DR) = 88,240
1,425 (Total shields with overshield) / 0.05 = 28,500
88,240 + 28,500 = 116,740 EHP

That's less than the Defy-boosted armor EHP setup by a couple tens of thousands (after calculating the correction provided by @denis-ldv which turns out to be 138,160). If you're only using Pillage to abuse shieldgating, effectively giving Mesa infinite EHP so long as enemies are nearby and she has the energy to keep spamming that, I can see your point.

Now I'm more than willing to admit math isn't my strong point. If I'm fudging up the calculation somewhere, and you can show me where I went wrong, I'll concede.

Mesa's build has two umbral mods one of which is vitality.  It also happens to have adaptation which IIRC still works on shields.  And 210% power strength.  I do not know the calculations.  So maybe you can run those numbers again.

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

You would absolutely not get more out of Rolling Guard, a mod that grants 3s invulnerability before going on a 7s cooldown. Combining high armor with a DR skill supported by Operator healing is more effective. Adaptation would be better.

Let's try this again.  Squish frames usually don't have a DR skill.  I'm specifically talking about frames that have no inherent survival abilities built into their kit.  Adaptation was not picked because they would not have the HP pool to gain and maintain the stacks.  Rolling guard plus operator healing is more consistent for them at this point.  The only squishy frame I can think of that adaptation might be worth on would be Mag because she can restore her shields constantly.  All I know is if slapping a bunch of armor on was all you needed to turn squish frames into non squish frames then it already would've been a reality with arcanes and mods.  It was my understanding that in order for armor to actually be beneficial for you not only did you need a DR skill but a decent HP pool to work with.  Adaptation and defy are not enough to make squish frames non squish as far as I know.

[GREF_TM]

On 2020-09-10 at 9:54 AM, Pizzarugi said:

You say that, but let's take Mesa as an example.

So, it was because defy was theoretically too good on mesa (which we won't know since it was murdered before we could even test it) that i can't use it as a viable option on an outdated frame like excal, which has underwhelming survivability and could benefit from it, but not nearly that much for it to break the game in any way? That's great.

[Lolacrayola]

I can see an argument that the nerf to Roar was more to prevent Rhino from being excluded from play. (Or at least, certain kinds of play). Shout Rhino is a thing and Roar makes him a capable DPS for Eidolon hunting.

While playing DPS Volt + Roar, a couple of things occurred to me. Its still really strong since Volt builds for power strength anyway. It doesn't completely remove Rhino as a DPS option because he gets the full fat Roar not the semi skimmed version Volt has. He is easier to play, especially in slower groups where the Eidolon walks and you drop your buffs at inconvenient times. It requires less setup too so the trade off between DPS Volt and DPS Rhino essentially comes down to archwing speed vs convenience. But the important thing is its a tradeoff.

If you give full fat Roar to Volt then there is really no reason to ever run Rhino in Eidolon hunts.

Now for some of the other nerfed abilities I don't see the logic but maybe I'm missing some things. I can see the argument holding for War Cry since it is such a central part of Valkyr's kit. Some would say its the only real reason to play Valkyr at all. For things like Dispensery, I don't really understand it.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

29 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

I can see an argument that the nerf to Roar was more to prevent Rhino from being excluded from play. (Or at least, certain kinds of play). Shout Rhino is a thing and Roar makes him a capable DPS for Eidolon hunting.

There are already frames you do not take into other modes of play.  There are already frames that are must picks for certain modes of play.  Even if Rhino was completely cut out of hunts he's still a very fantastic frame to carry newer players through the star chart.  He still has a very solid base kit that opens a few ways to play.  Roar wasn't the only facet to his gameplay.

29 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

While playing DPS Volt + Roar, a couple of things occurred to me. Its still really strong since Volt builds for power strength anyway. It doesn't completely remove Rhino as a DPS option because he gets the full fat Roar not the semi skimmed version Volt has. He is easier to play, especially in slower groups where the Eidolon walks and you drop your buffs at inconvenient times. It requires less setup too so the trade off between DPS Volt and DPS Rhino essentially comes down to archwing speed vs convenience. But the important thing is its a tradeoff.

Not really.  If you're solo hunting you could take many options.  Volt wasn't and still isn't the only good solo hunter.  And you could replace Rhino already as a buffer frame.  He was never required for group hunts.

29 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

If you give full fat Roar to Volt then there is really no reason to ever run Rhino in Eidolon hunts.

Even if it were true that's not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

29 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

Now for some of the other nerfed abilities I don't see the logic but maybe I'm missing some things. I can see the argument holding for War Cry since it is such a central part of Valkyr's kit. Some would say its the only real reason to play Valkyr at all. For things like Dispensery, I don't really understand it.

Literally all of Valkyr has a use.  Warcry is just what she's known for.  Which is a shallow reason for a nerf.  The only "problematic" ability they nerfed was Roar.  and it's only because Roar behaves as a faction mod.  DE should've just not chosen roar.  All nerfing has done was guarantee frames that might have been able to use it by modding out of their usual stats to make it a non option in those instances.  Any frame that dumps into the stats that benefit roar still have a good option and it's still the best option because a good half of the other options are bad from a design standpoint.

[selig_fay]

26 minutes ago, Lolacrayola said:

While playing DPS Volt + Roar, a couple of things occurred to me. Its still really strong since Volt builds for power strength anyway. It doesn't completely remove Rhino as a DPS option because he gets the full fat Roar not the semi skimmed version Volt has. He is easier to play, especially in slower groups where the Eidolon walks and you drop your buffs at inconvenient times. It requires less setup too so the trade off between DPS Volt and DPS Rhino essentially comes down to archwing speed vs convenience. But the important thing is its a tradeoff.

If you give full fat Roar to Volt then there is really no reason to ever run Rhino in Eidolon hunts.

It's actually about the general warframe problem. And it says directly - players, players solve the problem of damage and nothing else. And if you give players more problems, they start to worry about bigger aspects. And here it comes to the fact that roar is effective only because nothing else is needed.

I think Warframe players know very little about how the Trinity archetype system works.

For example, in a trinity DPS system, the oriented player will never take Roar for the simple reason that it is the support's job to increase group efficiency. The DPS is the person who cares about his damage output, he doesn't care about the group because the group should be worried about him. There will be no dps, you will not be able to kill quickly, which means you will move slowly or it will become fatal for you. But of course this does not apply to a warframe. 

And the first problem here is that some dps oriented characters are very bold. This is why you will take the roar rather than the survivability ability when you go solo. 

The second problem is that the roar as a group buff is stronger than any self-buff. DPS players are not faced with the choice of increasing personal damage greatly or increasing group damage. They just take what does both of these things.

 

Tank characters are someone who concentrates on personal defense, distraction and (most importantly) mob pulling and mob debuff. The larva is literally the very thing that plays the role of a tank perfectly. You may not be playing archetypes, but you will still be doing it subconsciously. And tank-oriented players usually take the Larva, because strapped enemies are a safer strategy for the group, it is faster and more convenient for the group to kill mobs. 

And roar is what the tank will put if its tasks are not a priority now (for example, you tank the boss and can buff the group from time to time) and this will unload the support's work a little. But here again, this is not about the warframe. Here the opponents are either too strong or too weak (usually weak). Scaling damage against players is not a good thing because it is impossible to tune.

Support is the role that is built for the group, not for yourself. Dispenser is what support players prefer to choose more, because the main task of a support is to worry about the resources and efficiency of other players. And this is something that people have little understanding of how really worried about other people. A lot of Wisp players place flowers as convenient for them, and not as convenient for the group. 

And this is the same reason why supports take roar. Because it's a support ability. Frost dome also refers to support, yes, it's good for a tank, but much more profitable for a support, making the tank free.

And here are all three problems. DPS take roar because there is literally no good alternative (actually there is, if you look around). Tank takes the roar because he has no defense tasks. The support takes a roar to increase the efficiency of the group. And why did I react to your comment about hunting eidolon. Eidolon hunting is where you don't need a tank. Since the characters are fat, you don't need a support without increasing dps (for example, you don't need dr support if you already live well). And the only tactic is to maximize group DPS. It's literally all about the roar. You can put any skill, but it will be useless for eidolon hunting if it does not maximize your dps or group dps.