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In-Depth look at Deimos Jugulus


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2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

He was talking about the Genetrix, not the Jugulus. The Jugulus does fast to melee, the Genetrix not so much

My mistake. I didn't read the quoted text.

I usually ignore the Jugulus. They're just another victim of DE's crummy level scaling. Like the damn Treasurer's in Sortie level missions.

Edited by Ace-Bounty-Hunter
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20 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

I'm not entirely sure which of the jugulus attacks does it.  I just know that sometimes my Inaros Prime will just instantly die and go flying into low orbit when they're around.  With zero chance to dodge, avoid, or even know for certain which of their attacks did it.  Which is just what I expect when fighting a faction that's previously been defined by being the Melee Only faction.  :(

Toxic Ancients were doing that with their barely telegraphed "roar", long before the Jugulus. I've learned to be quite wary of them. Infested are tricksy.

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Watched through the whole video and no mention of their DPS dependent DR. Disappointing.

That's new information to me, and I was not aware of it when I began working on this video. I think it's fair to be disappointed if you thought I began working on this video after the wiki page was updated with the algorithm on their damage resistance, but videos like this can sometimes take a long time to make. Which makes it suck even more to find out that I missed over such an important detail. Anyway, I guess I just have to take it on the chin and accept that I made a mistake.

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20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

He was talking about the Genetrix, not the Jugulus. The Jugulus does fast to melee, the Genetrix not so much

I'll admit this thread piqued my curiosity. So I decided to go run a Steel Path Deimos Bounty to try and find a way to kill a Genetrix. I found the only effective way of dealing with them is by using Guard mode on the Necramech. It does an absurd amount of damage and vaporized it in only a few shots.

Sadly I have no means to capture the footage, but I can link my current Arquebex build for those that also wish to test it out. 

lMO77Cz.png

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You failed to mention a couple important things. First of all, they aren't just durable, they actually cheat. What I mean by this, is that the damage per second you can do to them (before armor) is capped.

The exact calculation is not clear to me, but it is easily noticeable when using a sniper rifle - you get a multiplier to your damage for consecutive hits, except it doesn't increase your damage at all against a Jugulus.

Secondly, they have a special damage reduction against bleeds (or damage over time in general). While you can apply bleeds to them, they are essentially worthless.

Thirdly, you can still oneshot them easily. You are merely limited in your choice of tools. Pictures to illustrate my points:

-snip-

According to the wiki (https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Deimos_Jugulus), the DPS that a single weapon can do to them isn't capped per se, but it's more that they have a final-damage-reduction multiplier that scales based on the theoretical DPS of the weapon that's hitting them (before crits, but apparently including crits on DoT damage).

It shows this formula...

5a8CxIm.png

... but unfortunately doesn't link any kind of source, so I can't tell whether it's perfectly accurate or not. From a bit of testing ingame, though, it certainly feels like a good approximation at least.

This isn't new to Jugulus, either-- a lot of enemies (Lephantis, Tusk Thumpers, Condrix, Demolishers, and apparently even the Nox) have used a similar (if not identical) mechanic for quite a while.

 

That being said... I have no idea what's been happening on my end, but I haven't been able to replicate your results on Jugulus. Not in the Simulacrum, at least.
From the testing that I did a few days ago:

  • Combo multipliers from my sniper rifle (Vulkar Wraith with a decent riven) seemed to be applying just fine against simulacrum Jugulus.
    (Lephantis, Tusk Thumpers, and simulacrum Demolishers did not seem to be taking any extra damage from combo multipliers.)
  • "Headshotting" (heh) the Jugulus seemed to be applying the 4x multiplier as normal, both in simulacrum and in missions.
    (Demolishers also got headshotted just fine, so I'm not sure why that's in the formula on the wiki. Lephantis and Tusk Thumpers don't have heads to test this on.)
  • Adding fire rate to my Kuva Chakkhurr did NOT modify the damage per tick against simulacrum Jugulus, at all.
    (Demolishers, Lephantis, and Tusk Thumpers all received reduced damage per tick with added fire rate on the weapon. Conversely, a negative-fire-rate riven dramatically increased the damage per tick on Demolishers. 🤔)

Overall, from what little testing I did... it honestly feels like simulacrum Jugulus take damage just like every other enemy, but are merely hella tanky (similar to Kyta Raknoids). Which is the exact opposite result of what everyone else has been saying.
This baffles me.

Edited by SortaRandom
Scratched out now-inaccurate Jugulus info.
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8 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I haven't been able to replicate your results on Jugulus.

Then you are doing something wrong.

First shot on a fresh Jugulus:b7DBq29.png

Shot at 3x combo on a fresh Jugulus:GEnC0AO.pngI dealt LESS damage per hit (presumably because of Arcane Acceleration).

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You definitely should keep going as you have a very nice style, it was an enjoyable experience, tbh I find you extremly talented!

It is pretty nice for you taking time to expose enemies and try to analyse them. However your weapons and builds in general are a bit on the "late to the party" side of the scope wich hinders a bit your capacity to make proper conclusions.

Don't get mad about my comment about the "meta", most of the popular warframe youtubers/build influencers atm are way worse than you individually and don't have the maturity or just the intelligence to build up content structure as cleanly as you. There are some that are good tho(Tactical Potato for example is very good but he is extremly experimented as a ytuber, is above average skill wise AND has insane game time on WF as well).

Edited by Galuf
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7 minutes ago, Galuf said:

It is pretty nice you taking time to expose enemies and try to analyse them. However your weapons and builds in general are a bit on the "late to the party" side of the scope. You definitely should keep going as you have a very nice style, it was an enjoyable experience, you're definitely good at this! Don't get mad about my comment about the "meta", the most popular warframe youtuber atm is way worse than you.

Thank you, this is valuable and constructive feedback, and you're not being a $&*^ about it! Which is nice... I wish I could be on top of the most current details but working full time and other obligations makes it difficult to keep up with people who do this as their full time job. I've been trying to find some more niche subjects to talk about that haven't been already been covered by other content creators. Anyways thanks again for the positive and helpful feedback! :) 

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1 hour ago, Rhyandra said:

Those aren't just "tanky". They're damn near invincible. Have you ever tried killing one in a steel path bounty? 

You can do it in Steel Path. You Sarpa them with Shattering Impact and then you shoot the little eye ball that comes out of the bottom with a hard-hitting weapon. It's definitely not the same as one shotting, but it's practical to pull it off even in Steel Path.

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Ah also, I watched the start on your oberon video. I tryed Carnis set on Xaku, it worked extremly well because of the inate 25%. I wouldn't consider any evasion build without using this set and playing some heavy attack stuff and this set.

Carnis set is imho a big sleeper, atm the meta secondary weapon(kuva nukor) doesn't really mind having 1 less mod, and the melee mod looses a lots of dmg on your melee but at the same times heavy bleeders or heavies in general generate one shots anywhere :). Status immunity pairs extremly well with evasion because most of the time things that can't be dodged are puting statuses on you.

Well from my personnal understanding evasion is a mechanic that is pretty good in long endurance runs for sure.

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1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said:

Of note is, that while Arcane Acceleration reduced my damage per hit, Arcane Rage increases my damage as usual.

That's because while both affect your DPS, only Rage directly affects on the number that pops up on your screen in normal conditions. In both instances, your DPS has gone up, Rage just gives more direct feedback.

Your DPS is being reduced in both instances by the Jugulus, its just not as obvious with Rage.

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39 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Your DPS is being reduced in both instances by the Jugulus, its just not as obvious with Rage.

That makes sense. So this enemy has a special damage resistance that scales up with your DPS, and it's function seems to be to... (heh) "flatten things out" and normalize the gap between lower tier DPS set ups and higher tier DPS set ups. Seems like a really savvy way to address the insane gap between lower dps builds and higher dps builds. But it's also a bit sneaky since it's hidden from the players except for what's displayed on the Wiki page. I wonder...who owns the desmos.com domain name? (the one currently edited into the wiki to demonstrate how the damage resistance on these enemies works). And who dug up (or reverse-engineered) that formula and posted it into the wiki?

I think another thing worth pointing out here, is that this hidden damage resistance is worthy of telling people about, but being unaware of it isn't going to be a real detriment to a player either. It's not like modding for more DPS is going to increase your TTK (unless it works like poorly implemented tax brackets where if you go from 999 dps to 1,000 dps, your dps drops from 999 to 900 after hitting the threshold), For players like my former self, being unaware of this special damage resistance just makes them feel noticeably tankier - and can lead to probing and testing to find ways around the barrier (like using 100% armor strip, which works quite well).

DE is starting to do some really tricky things with how they handle powercreep. Like instead of nerfing viral, they just...added immunity to viral. Or instead of nerfing top-end dps builds, they added this hidden DPS scaled damage resistance. You can tell they are trying to address the issue of powercreep, but in ways that aren't as overt as nerfing things that would otherwise cause a tsunami of tears on these forums. These are buffs to enemies, not nerfs to the Warframes. (but anyone who can see beyond the obvious and superficial differences, buffing enemies isn't *that* much different than nerfing players). I guess well played on their part in terms of avoiding an avalanche of hate mail. 

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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31 minutes ago, Galuf said:

Carnis set is imho a big sleeper

It's been on my mind as well. I really wish they would just reveal their enemy accuracy algorithm but I'm sure the community will reveal more about the viability of evasion as a method for survival over time. You make a really good point about the status immunity being very helpful to evasion, because (as you said) some of the biggest threats to an evasion focused build would be damage over time effects.

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7 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

And who dug up (or reverse-engineered) that formula and posted it into the wiki?

That would be another user, Orokin (I believe that is his ign, I know him by better by his discord handle). He did most of the work, which I've verified since (lots and lots of tests)

 

13 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

who owns the desmos.com domain name? (the one currently edited into the wiki to demonstrate how the damage resistance on these enemies works)

Desmos is just an online graphing calculator. No warframe player owns it

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7 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

That would be another user, Orokin (I believe that is his ign, I know him by better by his discord handle). He did most of the work, which I've verified since (lots and lots of tests)

That's impressive. It might be worth asking then...

by the formula that's been posted, if you have 999 dps, you will not encounter any special hidden damage resistance. But if you have 1,000 dps, you cross the line into 0.8 damage modifier territory.

Would going from 999 dps to 1,000 dps cause your overall dps to drop to 800, or does the 0.8 damage multiplier only affect the damage that meet or exceeds 1,000, leaving you with 999.8 dps? (Like tax brackets)

Edited by Flying_Scorpion
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8 minutes ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

by the formula that's been posted, if you have 999 dps, you will not encounter any special hidden damage resistance. But if you have 1,000 dps, you cross the line into 0.8 damage modifier territory.

Would going from 999 dps to 1,000 dps cause your overall dps to drop to 900, or does the 0.8 damage multiplier only affect the damage that meet or exceeds 1,000? (Like tax brackets).

It is not like tax brackets. Once you reach the next interval, only that function applies.
So in the example of say 7250 dps (that falls with in the 4th "level"), there will be a damage modifier of 0.4 + 200/7250 = 0.66 (aka 34% DR)

The nice about the function is that it is continuous. That is, each interval's endpoint matches the next interval's beginning point

Edited by (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom
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1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Then you are doing something wrong.

First shot on a fresh Jugulus:

Shot at 3x combo on a fresh Jugulus:I dealt LESS damage per hit (presumably because of Arcane Acceleration).

I just popped into the simulacrum again, and yeah, the combo multipliers were getting completely neutralized this time, matching what your screenshots show. No idea what the hell was going on last time I tested this 😂

But yeah, interestingly: 

  • vs Jugulus: The "Lasting Purity" mod (x1.6 final damage to all shots while zoomed in) was applying its full bonus. (But I recall it being reduced when I tested it against Jugulus last week.)
    vs Demolisher Thrasher: Lasting Purity's bonus was reduced.
  • vs Jugulus: Casting Roar (x1.5 final damage with my build) increases the final damage of each tick by about x1.46 (with my Vulkar Wraith).
    vs Demolisher Thrasher: It increases final damage by only x1.25 for the same build.
  • vs Jugulus: Combo counter on Snipers (x1.5, x2.0, etc...) is not having an effect at all.
    vs Demolisher Thrasher: Combo counter is applying, but with a reduced effect.
  • vs Jugulus: Fire rate is having no effect whatsoever on damage per tick.
    vs Demolisher Thrasher: Increasing fire rate reduces damage per tick.

Of note: Demolisher Thrasher and Jugulus should have identical DR formulae, according to the wiki. Yet they're displaying fundamentally different behaviour ingame.

So unless I messed something up horribly without realizing, the wiki's probably wrong. Especially for the Jugulus page; it's not matching ingame behaviour at all.

 

EDIT: Now that I think about it... if the "modded damage" part of the Jugulus/Thrasher DR formulae is applied after armor, then that could explain some of the insane discrepancies between the two enemies (Roar and Sniper combo multiplier aside).
I was testing against a high-leveled Jugulus with a suboptimal build, so the damage per tick before crits was well below 1000, and would stay below 1000 even with a measly x1.6 DPS multiplier from Lasting Purity or Speed Trigger. Which, according to the formula, means that DR is not applied at all-- consistent with my results.

On the other hand, the damage of each shot (before crits) would've been in the thousands versus the DemoThrasher, which causes the DR to start kicking in.

(Just thinking out loud here, don't mind me 🤔)

Edited by SortaRandom
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55 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

vs Jugulus: The "Lasting Purity" mod (x1.6 final damage to all shots while zoomed in) was applying its full bonus. (But I recall it being reduced when I tested it against Jugulus last week.)
vs Demolisher Thrasher: Lasting Purity's bonus was reduced.

Sadly I don't own the mod, so I cannot test

55 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

vs Jugulus: Casting Roar (x1.5 final damage with my build) increases the final damage of each tick by about x1.46 (with my Vulkar Wraith).
vs Demolisher Thrasher: It increases final damage by only x1.25 for the same build.

Builds would be nice so I can try and replicate. I will add this though. Thrashers have a 0.5x dam multiplier on most of their upper body. Therefore the DR will differ from a Jugulus as your DPS has been halved.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

vs Jugulus: Combo counter on Snipers (x1.5, x2.0, etc...) is not having an effect at all.
vs Demolisher Thrasher: Combo counter is applying, but with a reduced effect.

This does seem true if you shoot its stem or "head." However, shooting the roots receives the multiplier from the combo counter, with the appropriate damage reduction from having a higher dps.

1 hour ago, SortaRandom said:

vs Jugulus: Fire rate is having no effect whatsoever on damage per tick.
vs Demolisher Thrasher: Increasing fire rate reduces damage per tick.

Again, I'd love a build so I can replicate exact conditions. In these to the following videos, I use Vulkar Wraith with fire rate and then without. You can see the difference in tick damage.
With no fire rate
With fire rate

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17 hours ago, Flying_Scorpion said:

It's been on my mind as well. I really wish they would just reveal their enemy accuracy algorithm but I'm sure the community will reveal more about the viability of evasion as a method for survival over time. You make a really good point about the status immunity being very helpful to evasion, because (as you said) some of the biggest threats to an evasion focused build would be damage over time effects.

Well, the Carnis set is the one everyone probably has considering how common Carnis Rex are. Does Jugulus Rex even exist? Is running the endless mission the only way to get the Jugulus Set?

On Warframe Market, Carnis Stinger is 5 plat while Jugulus Spines is 70. The drop tables are something that also need to be reviewed.

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On 2020-09-10 at 9:12 AM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

I'll admit this thread piqued my curiosity. So I decided to go run a Steel Path Deimos Bounty to try and find a way to kill a Genetrix. I found the only effective way of dealing with them is by using Guard mode on the Necramech. It does an absurd amount of damage and vaporized it in only a few shots.

Sadly I have no means to capture the footage, but I can link my current Arquebex build for those that also wish to test it out. 

lMO77Cz.png

Come on you can do better than that, try this instead. Sarpa to remove it's armour then focus a nukor on the small eye at the bottom. Dies pretty quick.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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10 hours ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Come on you can do better than that, try this instead. Sarpa to remove it's armour then focus a nukor on the small eye at the bottom. Dies pretty quick.

That is hardly a practical solution during Steel Path bounties because I'd have to give up my normal melee weapon that can chew up the toughest of enemies in seconds for an armor stripper that hits like a wet noodle. And for what purpose? To kill a floating Pacman that does nothing but barf out extra mobs. 

Relying on Primaries/Secondaries is not a good idea because mobs like the Jugulus and Saxum are really chunky at over 100+ levels, so you'd be running into ammo issues quite frequently. (Unless you enjoy spamming the heck out of ammo pizzas).

It's just easier to bring out your Hulkbuster and nuke it with your 4.

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