Serration: The largest build space waste. #openall8slots

[Aarohnn_Landao]

 Here we are in 2020 and Serration is literally the sliest and largest unnoticed waste of space in warframe. It and it's counterparts in other weapons are in 99.9% of weapon builds as the very first card you put into the gun as you level it. Because it is used in EVERYTHING It effectively removes one slot from all builds to bring the gun up to a basic standard level of damage function. You don't ever have 8 card slots to work with in a weapon, you have 7 slots to work with. The card acts as a gateway step ladder for new players, and a build limiter for everyone else. It prevents diversity in builds due to it's irreplaceable nature and there is no direct competing card to it that you wouldn't either add in addition to the card, (heavy caliber) or not use at all.

I'd like to see DE remove this card and bring all weapons up to the base level of damage that having it equipped provides. Thus freeing up the 8th slot. There's not really a point to it's existance if it's a requirement for (almost - though i've never seen it missing in a proper build...) every functional build in the game. It reminds me of when warframe abilities were equipped as cards in your frame.

#openall8slots.

[TheGrimCorsair]

Cool, we're gonna give all the enemies in the game a 190%-220% increase in HP to compensate, right?

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

well i mean it's not really 7 slots you have to work with, it's 6... because of Split Chamber

I'd like to see the base damage increasers be implemented in an intrinsic style system, but then what do you level up the base damage intrinsic with? Affinity, Mastery rank, Starchart progress, or Endo?

[Tyreaus]

Frankly, I think it would be better to make damage mods additive to each other and buff the base damage of weapons (and/or other damage mods) so that weapons, after modding, remain in roughly the same spot.

The major reason base damage mods are so essential is because they act like multipliers on other damage mods. Heated Charge is 90% on the weapon's base damage as well as base damage mods like Hornet Strike and Serration.

Multishot is a different beast that probably requires a more fundamental touch-up, e.g. pulling from ammo reserves and/or diminishing crit / status chance (one pellet gets 100% of the weapon's crit / status chance, second pellet gets 50%, third gets 25%...). Something to make it compete with fire rate mods.

[Ceryk]

That was actually going to be part of Damage 3.0. Kill the mandatory mods to free up mod slots so people would actually be able to make cool weapon builds. They were going to remove the base damage mods completely and build them into the weapons and have the weapons gain power like the frames. They were also going to either completely remove multishot since that was actually never supposed to make it into the game outside of being a special weapon feature built into the weapon or nerf multishot so that it stopped being a mandatory mod like Serration is. But they got too distracted with the story quest ideas and never followed through on Damage 3.0 so we are unfortunately stuck with having 3 slots de facto occupied by 1 base damage mod and 2 multishot mods on most Primary and Secondary weapons 2 on Archguns for the foreseeable future since I don't see them revising Damage 3.0 any time soon since they have too many story quests to make and too many other way more broken systems to fix.

[Aarohnn_Landao]

4 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

That was actually going to be part of Damage 3.0. Kill the mandatory mods to free up mod slots so people would actually be able to make cool weapon builds. They were going to remove the base damage mods completely and build them into the weapons and have the weapons gain power like the frames. They were also going to either completely remove multishot since that was actually never supposed to make it into the game outside of being a special weapon feature built into the weapon or nerf multishot so that it stopped being a mandatory mod like Serration is. But they got too distracted with the story quest ideas and never followed through on Damage 3.0 so we are unfortunately stuck with having 3 slots de facto occupied by 1 base damage mod and 2 multishot mods for the foreseeable future.

It's nice to know it's at least been given thought then.

 

25 minutes ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Cool, we're gonna give all the enemies in the game a 190%-220% increase in HP to compensate, right?

kinda already happened in a way, steel path.

 

9 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

 

The major reason base damage mods are so essential is because they act like multipliers on other damage mods. Heated Charge is 90% on the weapon's base damage as well as base damage mods like Hornet Strike and Serration.

 

This is a good point, I'd like to see that % multiplyer applied to the weapon based on what level the weapon is ranked to*. Much like an ability on a warframe. Unranked would be equal to an unranked serration multiplier, and as you rank up the weapon it progresses to what a full card would be.

Edit: a word.

[taiiat]

just create interesting alternatives like how we now have Players choosing to use Pressure Point or Condition Overload, or rarely both. there's a choice being made by Players there.

create choices, don't remove them. removing Mods won't increase your choices.
powercreep (getting it for free) isn't a solution either, as that still removes choices.

[kironin]

when you take off the top most pebble from the pile. the one below shall take its place. pointing out one mod now will just become another mod later,

this is the most asinine thing to have an issue with since the games inception.

 

every game has a better optimum weapon/item/gear/other combination. some basic some more complex, if this change were to take place could you honestly say you'd be satisfied?

would the next thing that took its place become a target for dissatisfaction

[CopperBezel]

51 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

well i mean it's not really 7 slots you have to work with, it's 6... because of Split Chamber

I'd like to see the base damage increasers be implemented in an intrinsic style system, but then what do you level up the base damage intrinsic with? Affinity, Mastery rank, Starchart progress, or Endo?

Yeah, I mean, right now, if you want to rank up your base weapon damage, you level it up with endo. And it's called Serration. Players tend to have incomplete mods hanging around up to MR10 or beyond. Those same players ache for mod points on unranked weapons and don't have as easy access to potatoes to double them, and they might be missing a dual stat or base elemental damage mod here or there. The linear progression is fine.

Meanwhile, once you do have access to everything and everything ranked, it's not 7 slots or 6 or whatnot you have to work with "freely", because it either is or isn't a crit gun, and if it is, your next mods are Point Strike and Vital Sense, and so on. There are unusual weapons with unusual quirks or disadvantages that have to be built differently, but in general, every weapon in a category is going to be the same build. Changing one mod doesn't change that.

23 minutes ago, taiiat said:

just create interesting alternatives like how we now have Players choosing to use Pressure Point or Condition Overload, or rarely both. there's a choice being made by Players there.

create choices, don't remove them. removing Mods won't increase your choices.
powercreep (getting it for free) isn't a solution either, as that still removes choices.

Yep. Melee is the one place where weapon mods have some variety based on what you're trying to do with the weapon or attributes the weapon has. If we want guns to have options, they'll need to follow that model with balanced alternatives.

[AlphaPHENIX]

1 hour ago, Aarohnn_Landao said:

You don't ever have 8 card slots to work with in a weapon, you have 7 slots to work with.

7?

55 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

well i mean it's not really 7 slots you have to work with, it's 6...

6?!

Boy, you two are living the dream! I would kill for that many slots.

57 minutes ago, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

I'd like to see the base damage increasers be implemented in an intrinsic style system, but then what do you level up the base damage intrinsic with? Affinity, Mastery rank, Starchart progress, or Endo?

Anything ^!BUT! Mastery Rank. At least until that gets a proper remake so that it's actually meaningful and not a chore.

24 minutes ago, kironin said:

if this change were to take place could you honestly say you'd be satisfied?

would the next thing that took its place become a target for dissatisfaction

Yes and yes.

[Aarohnn_Landao]

12 minutes ago, kironin said:

when you take off the top most pebble from the pile. the one below shall take its place. pointing out one mod now will just become another mod later,

this is the most asinine thing to have an issue with since the games inception.

 

every game has a better optimum weapon/item/gear/other combination. some basic some more complex, if this change were to take place could you honestly say you'd be satisfied?

would the next thing that took its place become a target for dissatisfaction

Quote

when you take off the top most pebble from the pile. the one below shall take its place. pointing out one mod now will just become another mod later,

-Perhaps. There is a name for this process; it's called continued improvement, that's something you should never stop considering. it's why abilities are nolonger cards in frames, and why damage types were redone recently.

Quote

this is the most asinine thing to have an issue with since the games inception.

-You're welcome to your opinion, It's not a crime to be wrong.

 

Quote

every game has a better optimum weapon/item/gear/other combination. some basic some more complex, if this change were to take place could you honestly say you'd be satisfied?

-Yes, yes I can say I'd be pretty damn satisfied. Making builds is the part of warframe I enjoy, and it could be so much more, with a little thought and refinement. Something it's not had in a long while.

Quote

would the next thing that took its place become a target for dissatisfaction

-Perhaps. I understand the point you are trying to make, but cynicism and lazyness are not an excuse to not keep improving questioning and improving again. Nor is being in a rut.

[Proscriptor]

On 2020-09-10 at 1:00 AM, Aarohnn_Landao said:

 Here we are in 2020 and Serration is literally the sliest and largest unnoticed waste of space in warframe. It and it's counterparts in other weapons are in 99.9% of weapon builds as the very first card you put into the gun as you level it. Because it is used in EVERYTHING It effectively removes one slot from all builds to bring the gun up to a basic standard level of damage function. You don't ever have 8 card slots to work with in a weapon, you have 7 slots to work with. The card acts as a gateway step ladder for new players, and a build limiter for everyone else. It prevents diversity in builds due to it's irreplaceable nature and there is no direct competing card to it that you wouldn't either add in addition to the card, (heavy caliber) or not use at all.

I'd like to see DE remove this card and bring all weapons up to the base level of damage that having it equipped provides. Thus freeing up the 8th slot. There's not really a point to it's existance if it's a requirement for (almost - though i've never seen it missing in a proper build...) every functional build in the game. It reminds me of when warframe abilities were equipped as cards in your frame.

#openall8slots.

if you take away +damage,

you will have the +multishot acting as a mandatory mod which it already is

so you'd have to take both out. this includes heavy caliber and vigilante armaments of course

when you've taken damage and multishot out of the picture, you'd have critical chance and critical damage which increase DPS on all crit-viable guns, which is the vast majority of guns (counting superior variants only)

on all such guns cc and cd are already mandatory, and now with dmg and ms removed, they are simply even more mandatory, thus needing to be removed from the game

on crit-viable guns then, we would observe hunter munitions becoming mandatory which it already mostly is; therefore hunter munitions is out of the picture

then you are left with fire rate. but normally a fire rate mod is already mandatory just as damage is; the exceptions are pretty rare; now fire rate becomes an absolutely mandatory mod on all guns (crit-viable or not), and fire rate mods must go as well.

the remaining standard mod is +90% status chance... with the absensce of dmg ms cc cd and fr mods, status chance becomes a proxy for more DPS

all crit viable guns will want to slot +status chance in the absence of other good bonuses to slot; therefore the +90% status chance mods need to go

together with it hammer shot of course, all such dual stat mods must go (lethal torrent etc.)

acolyte mods (argon scope, bladed rounds, spring loaded chamber) also need to go as they would become mandatory mods of course

so we have removed the following mods: all dmg, ms, cc, cd, fr and sc mods and dual stat mods with these stats, and hunter munitions

we are left with exilus mods and elemental mods

all weapons will slot toxin to combine either viral or corrosive like they do now

so do we remove toxin mods?

anyways, the idea of removing serration is terrible and hopeless. 

there's nothing wrong with serration.

it's impossible to tamper with the system now in such a way. it is what it is.

edit: about serration not missing in a proper build, what do you have to say to this

[MasterBurik]

Somehow I doubt Steve has changed his mind over the last six years...

 

[Proscriptor]

why serration doesn't limit your build options?

the answer is mainly rivens

with dmg on riven you can choose to fit or not to fit serration to stack damage, and it can be a very interesting choice

on a pistol with a dmg+ms riven you could sacrifice hornet strike to slot punch through. this is a perfectly legitimate build choice. you can have both builds in different config slots. 

if there was no damage mod to be slotted, you would not have the possibility to choose one or the other... just one example

so what these core stat mods (dmg ms cc cd) provide in the context of rivens is always the option of not slotting them in order to slot an interesting off-stat (faction mod, punch through, more fire rate, reload speed etc), an augment or a special mod like hunter munitions. existence of core stat mods creates a constrained environment where you're inclined to slot them, but always have an option to sacrifice them for something more specific and situation-appropriate

outside of rivens, sacrificing damage for status potential is how we get status dispenser builds, which can be very interesting

choice doesn't arise from having a so called "flex slot" (a new "mandatory" mod would quickly emerge and permanently plug it up in most players' builds), choice arises from having to make sacrifices, that;s really the answer

[Aarohnn_Landao]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

edit: about serration not missing in a proper build, what do you have to say to this

Quote

There's not really a point to it's existance if it's a requirement for (almost - though i've never seen it missing in a proper build...) every functional build in the game.

What do I have to say to it? You didn't read my post. That's what. I addressed fringe results for people like you with an obscure riven.

[Proscriptor]

1 hour ago, Aarohnn_Landao said:

What do I have to say to it? You didn't read my post. That's what. I addressed fringe results for people like you with an obscure riven.

no, you didn't read my post(s). i addressed your point about serration being a mod always slot

about people like me: we are the best people, yes. thank you. 

[Tyreaus]

23 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

no, you didn't read my post(s). i addressed your point about serration being a mod always slot

They highlighted the word "almost", which - in context - translates to "not absolutely every single one, but a vast majority".

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

Cool, we're gonna give all the enemies in the game a 190%-220% increase in HP to compensate, right?

To avoid this, DE should remove generic damage mods -and- subtract a slot from every weapon.   😎

[Aarohnn_Landao]

57 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

To avoid this, DE should remove generic damage mods -and- subtract a slot from every weapon.   😎

This would be the funniest S***; ever: I'd bite.


Edit: I forgot that the forums here can't handle mature language, my bad.
 

[Aarohnn_Landao]

4 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

Somehow I doubt Steve has changed his mind over the last six years...

video

That's very interesting, Thanks for digging that up!

[Aarohnn_Landao]

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

just create interesting alternatives like how we now have Players choosing to use Pressure Point or Condition Overload, or rarely both. there's a choice being made by Players there.

create choices, don't remove them. removing Mods won't increase your choices.
powercreep (getting it for free) isn't a solution either, as that still removes choices.

YES, I like this. I didn't catch your post earlier. But I like where your head is here. I'd love to have to make the choices like in melee with umbral cards or Condition Overload or things of this nature in rifles. The argument now seems to be "Oh but rivens" which.. Sure, but those are so variable it's equally arguable that they are a non-factor. I would love to see something like Umbral Cards in there that break up the norm of Serration.

I appreciate a good counter argument, or better suggestion. It's far more interesting than just having someone scream "REEEE" at the top of their lungs. Thanks!

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Aarohnn_Landao said:

YES, I like this. I didn't catch your post earlier. But I like where your head is here. I'd love to have to make the choices like in melee with umbral cards or Condition Overload or things of this nature in rifles. The argument now seems to be "Oh but rivens" which.. Sure, but those are so variable it's equally arguable that they are a non-factor. I would love to see something like Umbral Cards in there that break up the norm of Serration.

I appreciate a good counter argument, or better suggestion. It's far more interesting than just having someone scream "REEEE" at the top of their lungs. Thanks!

Amalgam Serration is a start. +155% Damage, +25% Sprint Speed

Possibly:

Misspent Stores: +330% Damage, -330% Damage on Hit for 2 Seconds

Riddled Mass: +50% Damage per stack of 

Steel Cored: +250% Damage, -200% Critical Chance

 

 

 

[Aarohnn_Landao]

27 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Amalgam Serration is a start. +155% Damage, +25% Sprint Speed

Possibly:

Misspent Stores: +330% Damage, -330% Damage on Hit for 2 Seconds

Riddled Mass: +50% Damage per stack of 

Steel Cored: +250% Damage, -200% Critical Chance

 

 

 

Yes, yes. This is the way.
I could see playing with something like Riddled mass, or any of these really. All depending on the weapon. there's some cool things that could be done with these.
Amalgam is a good start, this is a good point.

 

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Amalgam Serration is a start. +155% Damage, +25% Sprint Speed

Possibly:
Misspent Stores: +330% Damage, -330% Damage on Hit for 2 Seconds
Riddled Mass: +50% Damage per stack of 
Steel Cored: +250% Damage, -200% Critical Chance

the Amalgam Mods are mainly getting a Utility/Exilus type of Stat for free, but it is something at all i suppose.

the only sticking point is that if we want Mods to present themselves as options, we have to be careful to avoid them being free upgrades for certain Weapons. you don't want to detract something that some Weapons will have no useful amounts of anyways and so be able to take the Mod for free.

[AlphaPHENIX]

8 hours ago, MasterBurik said:

Somehow I doubt Steve has changed his mind over the last six years...

Spoiler

 

 

He does have a fair point in there, while both the question submitted and Steve's reply were stated rather rudely, it is true that mods are an important part of the game.
But that's not problem, at least not for me.
Personally I feel that the problem...is they don't feel like mods. Imagine you baught a rifle in real life, but in place of a barrel there is instead a rusty and deformed old pipe. You purchased a product, expecting it to be functional...and you got a piece of junk. Who would sell such a thing? In Warframe's case, the answer to that is everyone; it doesn't make sense, yet it is the norm. Want to mod something in your own unique way that makes it special, makes it yours? Too bad! You have to fix it first because the manufacturer wouldn't, they never do, and by the time you are done fixing, you don't have enough points to mod it.

TL;DR - Too much mandatory, not enough customization.