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Please don't assert my hardware is failing without providing details and proof


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Today, Warframe crashed on my computer.  Not a rare occurence, to be honest.  No other games I play these days seem to have this problem, but I cannot rule out a hardware issue.

However, today's crash was different.  After taking a while, the game disappeared from the screen to reveal a web page had been automatically opened in the browser.  That's the First bad form.  I don't want my games randomly opening other applications.

The second Bad form is being directed to a page that asserts:

WARFRAME DETECTED A PROBLEM WITH YOUR COMPUTER.

If you're seeing this page it could be for one of the following reasons:

1) IS YOUR CPU OR GPU OVER-CLOCKED?
If you know that your system is over-clocked we shouldn't have to tell you that it can cause problems :) Please try running your system at its intended speed.

2) A DEVICE DRIVER MAY BE MALFUNCTIONING
Some drivers can cause problems for Warframe (and your computer in general!) The easiest way to run a quick check-up is Windows Update.

Sometimes you can get even newer drivers for your graphics card directly from the manufacturer (you should still run Windows Update, though!).

If you know your graphics card, please visit the appropriate link from the list below:

          NVIDIA
          AMD
          INTEL


If you do not know the specs of your hardware, we suggest running a DXdiag on your computer. Learn how to HERE.

Finally, please don't run beta-versions of drivers while playing Warframe :)

3) YOUR SYSTEM MAY HAVE FAULTY RAM
A small number of computers have faulty RAM chips; as you can imagine this would cause all kinds of problems. You can test your RAM with a free tool from www.memtest.org


4) YOUR DISK MIGHT BE CORRUPT OR MALFUNCTIONING
Sometimes HDDs and SSDs can malfunction and if Warframe encounters a problem of this kind it will direct you here. You can check your disk for errors using Microsoft's instructions.


5) OVERHEATING
Is your computer getting too hot? When computers overheat all kinds of problems can start occuring -- even random reboots or system lockups.

6) POWER SUPPLY PROBLEMS
Do you have an adequate power supply? Some of the newest video-cards are hungry for power and if you can't keep them fed they will start to misbehave!

We want Warframe to work for you and this page is intended to get you in the game.
If nothing here helps you please contact your computer manufacturer and see if they can help.

 

BTW, you forgot the ancient, but always good, "did you update your BIOS"?

Please don't do this.  If the game THINKS it detected a hardware problem, provide me with the details.

With that said, let's sit and talk DE.

I love you guys, really.  Your game is fantastic, especially since it is free-to-play.  There are things that could use improvement in general, but overall it is a really enjoyable game.  Thank you!  With that said, your game is not know for, shall we say, being bug free.  If you want help in test automation, you can give me a call anytime.

So, PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE do not do this ^^^^.  Do not have your program open a page that blindly asserts my hardware is faulty.  That is REALLY bad.  Some people are going to believe it when it is not true.  DO provide help.  Perhaps a nice popup after the crash with a link to a page of suggestions, along the lines of, "hey, we're really sorry that your game crashed.  If you continue to have problems, the following steps are general advice for all who experience a crash."

If there are specific details that hint at a specific cause, then please provide those details.  That type of detail is very welcome.

Hope you find this to be constructive criticism.  I know that I'm a little annoyed at the moment as I'm writing this, so I hope I didn't dump that back on you.  Please continue to do good work.

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Did you get a crash reporter tool popup that sent in a report and provided you with a "WAR-########" number?

If so, you can contact DE Customer Support and inquire about the crash itself. 

Alternatively, if this is a crash that has been happening in a manner you can reproduce (or with some frequency), you should snag your EE.log file and send it in with a suport ticket to try and troubleshoot your game.

That said, please keep in mind that the game is not an AI; it's entirely within the realm of possibility that the nature of the crash coincides with crashes that usually (or perhaps almost always) occur due to hardware failure.

While I'm not a software engineer, I do work with them and tend to have a bit of insight into what could cause an application to think that your hardware may be faulty; keep in mind that the application can only see what your OS/drivers tell it--meaning if your OS/drivers act similarly to faulty hardware or drivers (even if they aren't actually faulty), then the game may think that your hardware is faulty. And while I'm not saying you don't know your PC, it's important to remember that hardware can fail without any warning or start exhibiting faults; in industry we call this MTBF (Mean time between failures); it's an average, meaning that some hardware can go a very long time without ever becoming faulty, and some hardware can become faulty very quickly (this is why things like warranties exist). Typically if your PC develops a minor fault, software running on your PC will usually be the first things to detect it, so it's possible that Warframe may actually be correct. Not saying it is faulty, just that it's possible.

Long story short, the game crashed in a way that was similar to crashes due to hardware running out-of-spec (overclocked, faulty drivers, bad RAM/HDD/SSD, overheating, intermittent power transients, etc), so it provided information that could be helpful if your hardware actually is running out-of-spec. This sort of behavior from an application is exactly what I'd expect to see.

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Additionally, there was an Nvidia driver version like 6-8 months ago that was causing WF to crash badly. Dunno who's fault that was, but the version before had been fine, there was no WF update that directly lined up with it happening. Video driver crashes usually spook Windows pretty badly as well and can seem to be bad hardware.

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8 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Additionally, there was an Nvidia driver version like 6-8 months ago that was causing WF to crash badly.

This bad?
K3iiWsA.jpg

Was having issues very often last year where the game would crash like this in load screens, i would have to keep my fingers on Alt-F4 wile i waited for missions to load so i could force the game closed if this happened. If i took more than a few seconds to close the game, it would completely crash my PC.

Edited by BiancaRoughfin
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Thanks for the attempts at being helpful.  I believe my post speaks for itself.

I am a software developer with many years experience, including working with drivers and inside kernels.  The main intent of my post here is to warn off the false assertion provided by that page.  While there is a possibility of faulty hardware, I have tested the hardware thoroughly, and use it for other games without troubles.

As far as a WAR### - no, I did not get a popup with it.

There are many reasons the program could have crashed.  I'm not overly concerned that it did - it's Warframe, and it's a game.  Worst case, I lose up to an hours worth of game effort - no big deal.  But that web page popping up.... I don't appreciate it, as someone with a lot of knowledge and background in this area, and I'm very concerned about the possible false impression it gives others who don't have the level of knowledge.

If DE wants to provide me with an instrumented version of the application that further traps crashes, and send them back the data files, I'd be up for that.  This type of crash (game stutters, halts, and then either recovers or dies after about 10 - 15 seconds) only happens about once several days of playing (> 5 maybe) - I haven't kept close track.  Again, the crash itself is a little annoying, but it's not THAT big of a problem.

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1 hour ago, AshikagaWest said:

 I'm very concerned about the possible false impression it gives others who don't have the level of knowledge.

Giving people who don't have the knowledge some general points at things to try having a look at is IMHO better than just leaving them an implied "figure it out yourself noob".

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On 2020-09-12 at 3:59 PM, Hobie-wan said:

Giving people who don't have the knowledge some general points at things to try having a look at is IMHO better than just leaving them an implied "figure it out yourself noob".

Sure.  Somewhere between "no feedback," and "you're hardware is failing," there is a good balance.

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On 2020-09-12 at 7:03 PM, BiancaRoughfin said:

This bad?

Had the same issue a month or so ago, Warframe + many other games kept doing this :/ Heck even a old DOS game did it. Turns out it was my power supply AND my motherboard that had it. oooft. I hope you don't have the same issue!

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26 minutes ago, Mediloric said:

Had the same issue a month or so ago, Warframe + many other games kept doing this :/ Heck even a old DOS game did it. Turns out it was my power supply AND my motherboard that had it. oooft. I hope you don't have the same issue!

But if it was the power supply, should windows give a bluescreen or it always completely crash the PC instead of just the graphics and the games continue running normal with sounds wile the graphics is crashed?

Also, i changed my PC in the beginning of this year. :3

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3 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

But if it was the power supply, should windows give a bluescreen or it always completely crash the PC instead of just the graphics and the games continue running normal with sounds wile the graphics is crashed?

A failing PS can do all sorts of weird things. Voltages (of which there are many different ones) going up or down could do something mild like cause something to lose a small piece of data that then causes a minor program crash that would cause a blue screen crash or could be so bad that the crash handler that lets you know something blew up could get nuked too. Really a marginal, but not completely dead power supply is one of the most confounding problems you can have with your PC.  It is more like there are 3 or more different power supplies inside of it, so you can be having issues with just your hard drive acting up, or programs always crashing if the processor isn't getting good power. And unless you have another power supply to swap in to see if things improve, it can be maddening, especially if you aren't a computer tinkerer or builder.

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4 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

But if it was the power supply, should windows give a bluescreen or it always completely crash the PC instead of just the graphics and the games continue running normal with sounds wile the graphics is crashed?

Also, i changed my PC in the beginning of this year. :3

Doesn't always from my experience, I just had full motherboard crashes if the power draw got high or was constant for too long. Had no BSOD or anything, in some cases I had what you just described here where everything was running but my screen was stuck. :| 

Also good stuff on the New PC. I'm getting a new one end of the month! 

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Le 12/09/2020 à 22:38, AshikagaWest a dit :

This type of crash (game stutters, halts, and then either recovers or dies after about 10 - 15 seconds) only happens about once several days of playing (> 5 maybe) - I haven't kept close track.  Again, the crash itself is a little annoying, but it's not THAT big of a problem.

 

This to me sounds like a driver issue, rather than Warframe. 

 

I have been playing the game for 7 years and despite how buggy it might be when it's loaded up, I have only very rarely experienced CTDs due to Warframe itself. The most egregious issue of late was some weird thing going on with Razer Synapse causing WF to CTD upon login screen, but I believe that is something to do with Razer's malware-esque software, rather than WF itself.

 

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1 hour ago, Els236 said:

This to me sounds like a driver issue, rather than Warframe. 

I have been playing the game for 7 years and despite how buggy it might be when it's loaded up, I have only very rarely experienced CTDs due to Warframe itself. The most egregious issue of late was some weird thing going on with Razer Synapse causing WF to CTD upon login screen, but I believe that is something to do with Razer's malware-esque software, rather than WF itself.

 

More probably because it was only happening in Warframe and i used to Play Ark Survival too which is very badly optimized and it never happened on Ark.

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28 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

More probably because it was only happening in Warframe and i used to Play Ark Survival too which is very badly optimized and it never happened on Ark.

Not all games and programs use all the functions of the hardware. Ark might not use some shader function that Warframe does. It's hard to say.

For instance there could be a problem in a Model X car from Brand Y. Person1 could have their radio and climate control go haywire all the time when they're on the highway because there's some major problem with the cruise control that makes the car freak out. Person 2 may never experience the problem because they live in the city and never use cruise at all.

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I use Ryzen 2400g Vega 11, AMD RX 5500T, and NVidia GT 1030, with motherboard Asus B450-F. Monitors plugged into integrated graphics. HybridGraphics enabled in BIOS motherboard settings.

To Switch GPU from AMD RX 5500 XT to NVidia GT 1030, I have to open device manager and disable one of them, and every time I disable GPU while Warframe is running, Warframe quits with "Hardware Failure" page. There is nothing wrong with my hardware. I only disabled one of them on device manager.

I do wish Warframe could switch to different GPU without having Warframe forced to exit to restart the whole game.

Windows update and driver update have ruined the ability to switch between any of 3 GPU while keeping all 3 enabled in device manager. AMD update removed their switchable graphics options in their options. Windows "Graphics settings" only shows 2 GPUs but I have 3 GPUs. NVidia control panel GPU selector is there, but mostly doesn't work.

Edit: For my case, there nothing wrong with my hardware as long as I don't disable it while running game. Some people have random hardware failure or computer crashes which can be difficult to determine what the problem is.

Edited by sam686
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On 2020-09-12 at 5:59 PM, Hobie-wan said:

Giving people who don't have the knowledge some general points at things to try having a look at is IMHO better than just leaving them an implied "figure it out yourself noob".

Not really, and letting them head to your tech support page on their own rather than inaccurately shoving it in their face by redirecting their browser isn't just tossing them to the wind.

The honest reality is that  "Ignore it and it'll go way on its own" is better advice than "Check all this stuff", nine out of ten times.  It's amazing how many times a new patch or driver will cause something to be nonfunctional or unreliable, present itself as a potential hardware issue, then work normally three days later after a patch of less than a MB.

If you are capable of telling the difference between when it's one of these and when it isn't, you don't need or want a browser redirect help page because it's intrusive and not helpful.  If you aren't capable of telling the difference, you need companies to not steer you towards attempting to diagnose bad RAM and the like based upon a single applications failure to run because it'll cause you to make decisions that a more experienced person(hence, one that wouldn't want this thing) would not make.

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On 2020-09-13 at 8:59 AM, Hobie-wan said:

Giving people who don't have the knowledge some general points at things to try having a look at is IMHO better than just leaving them an implied "figure it out yourself noob".

I agree generally, though the advice should be based on something specific to your situation, otherwise you're not very likely to fix the problem I think. It should perhaps be made clearer that the suggestions aren't based on any specific piece of information the game has noticed, and is just generally a good idea?

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That's not constructive @Malki_7.  See how I posted my concern, thoughts around why there is a concern, and ideas on how to do better - actionable feedback.

Thanks @Mediloric for the info.  I am always mindful of possible hardware issues.  Here's my current thinking (again with years of experience playing into decision-making here) - it's Warframe that crashes.  No other games I am playing theses days.  No other software is crashing.  No BSOD.  Also, the symptoms when Warframe crashes are consistent.  Huge pause in play followed _sometimes_ by a crash.  Given how consistent this is, a hardware problem, while not ruled out, is less likely.

I ran a couple of hardware test after this.  I may run some more "break-in" tests this weekend just to triple-check.

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On 2020-09-15 at 7:49 PM, sam686 said:

o Switch GPU from AMD RX 5500 XT to NVidia GT 1030

curious is there a reason why you have two (technically 3) different gpus and switch between them?

according to user benchmarks 5500 xt > vega 11 > gt 1030

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1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

curious is there a reason why you have two (technically 3) different gpus and switch between them?

1. Warframe lack of triple buffering with V-sync. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1159245-vsync-smooth-afr-glitch/
- Switchable graphics that render graphcis on AMD XT 5500 or Nvidia gt 1030, then output through Vega 11, allows V-sync to work better without frames per second abruptly cut in half.

2. Physx acceleration on NVidia GPU in some games (not warframe), while rendering on AMD 5500 XT, and video output to integrated graphics.

3. If I want less heat, I use NVidia Gt 1030. More heat, I can switch to AMD RX 5500, ideally without the blinking black screen of HDMI switch and messing up my windows positions.

4. Switchable graphics minimizes any slowdowns in borderless and windowed mode, with optimize flip-model on. Especially good with windows 10 update 2004 that fixed multi monitor mixed refresh rates to not slow down by secondary monitor's low refresh rate (144 and 60 Hz). Vega 11 can do all the DWM compositing work and video output.

5. If I want more heat during the winter, gives an option to run Folding at home, BOINC, or other distrubuted computing using all 3 GPUs.

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

according to user benchmarks 5500 xt > vega 11 > gt 1030

Most benchmark website only test one thing at a time. CPU at full speed with idling Vega 11, then Vega 11 at full usage with less then 5% CPU usage. If both CPU and GPU was used at the same time, the scores would be lower.

On Warframe, I found that NVidia Gt 1030 runs slightly faster then Vega 11 in 4 player squads, without the V-sync FPS cut in half problem so it looks better. Warframe in 4 player squads is somewhat CPU limited.

 

edit: I did find one weard workaround to switch to Nvidia GT 1030 without disabling GPU (causes "hardware failure" when I disable GPU), I just plug in HDMI to GT 1030 while keeping Vega 11 primary, start Warframe, when it loads, unplug HDMI from NVidia GT 1030, and game continues to render on NVidia GT 1030.

Edited by sam686
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Not having issues on any other game but Warframe doesn't mean it's not possible to have a hardware or software issue. I personally went through a period recently where my game would close and direct me to that page. I never crashed on any other game, or performance issues, and had no issues during multiple different stress tests. In the end though, my gpu under-volt and set clock speed were the issue as it wasn't stable enough for Warframe; lowering my clock and keeping voltage where I had it by like 10 fixed the issue completely.

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