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Auction in warframe and why we need a market system rework


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5 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

 

wow, it sounds like you're just waiting for the inevitable crash then, and paralyzed by that fear, defend a trade system engineered to be S#&$ty and inefficient

weird

sounds to me like the market crash is ultimately good since then we can rip off the bandage and deal with the underlying issues

That's a feature of all fiat currencies, and no, I am not paralysed by fear, I'm using the system that exists, and opposed to anyone making a suggestion that common sense says will be guaranteed to hasten that problem. Doubly so when the people are making it from a sense of blind greed.

And seriously, no a market crashing isn't a good thing. Not ever. Not since Holland had their first taste of Tulip Mania in the 1630s. Not during the Great Depression after WW1, not ever.

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Instead of an auction house, something like the flea market in Escape from Tarkov could work.

For those unfamiliar, you can filter and search items, view all the listings and buy or trade other players through the system. The game requires a listing fee or tax based on the the item and how far from the average price you are trying to list it for. For a fast sell price just under the lowest price, items not sold in 24 hours are returned to the seller and the listing fee is lost.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, selimsrm said:

Instead of an auction house, something like the flea market in Escape from Tarkov could work.

For those unfamiliar, you can filter and search items, view all the listings and buy or trade other players through the system. The game requires a listing fee or tax based on the the item and how far from the average price you are trying to list it for. For a fast sell price just under the lowest price, items not sold in 24 hours are returned to the seller and the listing fee is lost.

 

 

Same problem.

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17 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

sounds to me like the market crash is ultimately good since then we can rip off the bandage and deal with the underlying issues

And what, pray tell, are the "underlying issues" that will be fixed if the market crashes hard?

I mean all I see are a bunch of problems with the crash that hurts both F2P players, and DE, with no real positives coming from the system....unless you count prices hitting rock bottom in record time being a "positive" (in which case a lot of economists would like to talk to you).

I see a lot of pain for F2P that now have a much harder time getting up the plat for slots, the occasional potato and forma stuff.
I also see a lot of pain for DE because the demand for plat would also plummet drammatically.
I don't see a winner at all or how this would benefit anyone at all.

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54 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

 

wow, it sounds like you're just waiting for the inevitable crash then, and paralyzed by that fear, defend a trade system engineered to be S#&$ty and inefficient

weird

sounds to me like the market crash is ultimately good since then we can rip off the bandage and deal with the underlying issues

The underlying issue is that you have unrealistic expectations for the game.

AHs work in games like Final Fantasy or Wow (which still have issues) because they have much rarer items in the game and a much different grind. They're also completely different economies and they're subscription based.

The underlying issue is the players that want to put in no effort or can't manage their time wisely or are just cheap. 

Have something worth selling and someone will buy it. This requires actually grinding in the game and participating in the games content.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

The underlying issue is that you have unrealistic expectations for the game.

AHs work in games like Final Fantasy or Wow (which still have issues) because they have much rarer items in the game and a much different grind. They're also completely different economies and they're subscription based.

The underlying issue is the players that want to put in no effort or can't manage their time wisely or are just cheap. 

Have something worth selling and someone will buy it. This requires actually grinding in the game and participating in the games content.

Oh just call it what it is, they're greedy, and think that people should be lining up to buy their overpriced stuff. I can usually buy stuff at below warframe.market prices in chat by offering what I consider a reasonable value, and I'm not stuck sitting for hours lowballing anyone. On the other hand the people who complain and ask for an auction house are often offering stuff on the high end, and sitting in chat waiting for someone who doesn't know how to find a cheaper seller on warframe.market and just has way more plat than sense.

An auction house system won't help them at all, because the same sellers that are eager to take slightly less plat, and undercut the website's prices, would be more than willing to undercut them in an auction house. Not to mention all of the people that have played for a while and have stockpiles of stuff, which people like me often just give away for free to make some newb's day, might realise that we can do the same thing in the AH. I'll take 5 plat for a set, IDGAF. I've bought sets at that price too, when I was buying prime junk in bulk for Baro. That's where everything is going to end up, price wise, but they just can't wrap their heads around it. That's how greed works.

 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

If not an AH we at least need to fix the trading bugs. See:

 

Haven't had that happen. Wonder what causes it.

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48 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No they wouldn't, prices are NOT stable and haven't ever been. They're in a state of slow decline. When warframe.market was introduced people whined about the rapid drop in prices. The only things that are exempt from oversupply are ultimately the unique items, like rivens, and items no longer found in the game. That's why I told you, that it's not different, just faster.

That's what makes me believe this. Taking a long view, not a snapshot.

Of course prices are not stable. Some go down, but they most certainly also go up. It is most certainly not a slow decline! Sure, when warframe.market made its appearance it was a shock to the market, that increased accessibility, you know. A larger volume of platinum and trades in the community will make the cheap stuff cheaper but also in the end raise the price of the more expensive items. 

Long view and not a snapshot? When frames and weapons get vaulted prices go up and when unvaulted they'll drop. Get them while they're cheap, sell them when they're not. Will take a few months, but you can turn a tidy sum that way. Sure, acolyte mobs are no longer worth anything, but other potentially lucrative items joined the fray which are worth keeping an eye on.

Scarlet Spear nuked Arcane prices. But you know what? Just like with the loot from other events prices went up again and I made some serious plat by investing in snapping up cheap energizes and graces and reselling them this summer. And this pattern will repeat when SS returns, so it actually became a lot easier to make platinum on them. Oh, you don't sell those extra Primed whatevers you bought from Baro right away, no? You sit on them a couple of months, because hey, no slow decline but a steady rise the longer they haven't been available. Invest and speculate, don't farm and bring your produce to the market.

So, no, more people in a market place does not result in a steady decline of prizes. Yeah, stuff like common prime junk which takes a whole 2 minutes to acquire will never make you rich, but there are plenty of opportunities to make platinum everywhere if you pay attention...

 

48 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Auction house will never happen as it takes away player engagement.

The current trade chat will keeps you playing as you see intrest in other items and think well i do have lots vaulted relics i could run or i can get that mod easily that'll be quick 50p. An auction house you don't play the game at all why would any developer want that? Everyone who wants auction house doesn't want to play the game and have basically reveled how lazy they are as talking to people is just that hard

Following trade chat, the place with api hook-ups and filled to the brim with bots is playing the game? Muh... That channel moves so fast there is no conversation and you can't even read it without using filters. And yeah, those meaningful interpersonal interactions engendered by the current system? Errr, yeah, sure, I guess it has happened once or twice that the encounter went beyond 'WTB, pls invite.' 'kk' .... zoning... ... trade screen pops up ... 'tnx! have a nice day', but sure, ymmv and all...

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38 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Of course prices are not stable. Some go down, but they most certainly also go up. It is most certainly not a slow decline! Sure, when warframe.market made its appearance it was a shock to the market, that increased accessibility, you know. A larger volume of platinum and trades in the community will make the cheap stuff cheaper but also in the end raise the price of the more expensive items. 

They don't go up as high as they were when released. That's called "a slow decline". And yes the increased accessibility did lower the prices, and continues to do so to this day. The only items that are truly expensive are the ones that are in limited supply, rivens, and discontinued items.

38 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Long view and not a snapshot? When frames and weapons get vaulted prices go up and when unvaulted they'll drop. Get them while they're cheap, sell them when they're not. Will take a few months, but you can turn a tidy sum that way. Sure, acolyte mobs are no longer worth anything, but other potentially lucrative items joined the fray which are worth keeping an eye on.

I see that you still don't really grasp that we're talking about a scale of years, not weeks, with the current systems. That's because DE has built periods of limited supply, and perpetual sinks into our in-game economy; the prime vaults and Baro. Those help, but haven't stopped the decline, because supply remains potentially infinite, and demand remains extremely limited.

38 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Scarlet Spear nuked Arcane prices. But you know what? Just like with the loot from other events prices went up again and I made some serious plat by investing in snapping up cheap energizes and graces and reselling them this summer. And this pattern will repeat when SS returns, so it actually became a lot easier to make platinum on them. Oh, you don't sell those extra Primed whatevers you bought from Baro right away, no? You sit on them a couple of months, because hey, no slow decline but a steady rise the longer they haven't been available. Invest and speculate, don't farm and bring your produce to the market.

So, no, more people in a market place does not result in a steady decline of prizes. Yeah, stuff like common prime junk which takes a whole 2 minutes to acquire will never make you rich, but there are plenty of opportunities to make platinum everywhere if you pay attention...

And the people who bought from you will also do the same next time. You will face even more competition, and someone will undercut the prices you think you should earn for the quick plat. If ALL of us can sell simultaneously, and you're up against people who farmed far longer and more than you have, but generally didn't sell because they couldn't be bothered, guess what that means for the prices you can ask? Sitting on them for a few months longer might be an option, but again you'd see even more competition, and we just don't get that many whales joining.

As for prime junk not making you rich.... think about it. I've bought whole sets for 1plat per item (that's standard on PS4, multiply by 2 if you want to it won't make a difference). 16 trades x 5 items, most days, for weeks. We're talking thousands of items. Guess what would have happened if I decided to not convert the majority of that to ducats, but hold on to most of it for a few months and sell them as complete sets? Just asking for double my buying price, means thousands of plat in profit. At 10/15/20p per trade, I'd still be able to undercut you every day of the week on sales, and do it ridiculously fast because of how low I'm selling vaulted parts. What effect would my flooding the market have on the prices you can command? Now imagine if all of the vets in the game who can't be bothered decided to do the same thing because we don't have to sit in trade chat to do so. Doesn't matter to me if they're vaulted, because I'd still be making a massive mark up. Best part? Your system would probably crash the price of prime junk too.

Do you see now that you haven't realised how much profit someone can really make, even at bargain basement prices that would make Darvo cringe? Do you see why prices would plummet with a "set and forget, just rake in the plats" system? There are always people who are going to be more desperate for the plat than you are, and they're your competition.

 

38 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Following trade chat, the place with api hook-ups and filled to the brim with bots is playing the game? Muh... That channel moves so fast there is no conversation and you can't even read it without using filters. And yeah, those meaningful interpersonal interactions engendered by the current system? Errr, yeah, sure, I guess it has happened once or twice that the encounter went beyond 'WTB, pls invite.' 'kk' .... zoning... ... trade screen pops up ... 'tnx! have a nice day', but sure, ymmv and all...

The filters do exist for a reason. My trade chat crawls. I can respond rapidly to buy orders and sell orders, and set my prices based on both.

Edited by (PS4)guzmantt1977
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will not happen.

 

Speculators who make plat on newbies will never allow this and will whine on the forums.

 

the only argument which became for them something like a bible is that the market will lead to massive price reductions.

Yeah, like it's not happening at warframe market right now.

 

it should have been done years ago.

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32 minutes ago, Gasau said:

the only argument which became for them something like a bible is that the market will lead to massive price reductions.

Yeah, like it's not happening at warframe market right now.

it should have been done years ago.

There's a problem. You recognise this in the second line. You even recognise how such a system creates the problem. So you wan't them to make the problem worse, by adding a system that will add every single player in the game on the "potential sellers" list?

That makes sense to you? 

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2 минуты назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

There's a problem. You recognise this in the second line. You even recognise how such a system creates the problem. So you wan't them to make the problem worse, by adding a system that will add every single player in the game on the "potential sellers" list?

That makes sense to you? 

 

 

I like how you ignore "Speculators who make plat on newbies".

 

Yes, imagine, I do not want to use third-party sites, but I have to do this because the game does not provide normal conditions for trading.

 

the ability to quickly earn platinum? What percentage of players do you think dont know about warframe market if it is mentioned everywhere?

I think most of the players use the site. Because people will go to any lengths for freebies. And prices, in my opinion, have stabilized a long time ago.

 

And yes that makes sense. 

Even if the market is introduced, prices do not collapse by 1,000,000,000%, no need to be a drama queen here.

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9 minutes ago, Gasau said:

 

I like how you ignore "Speculators who make plat on newbies".

 

Yeah I did, because it is ridiculous. I've already said that I give stuff away more often than I sell things. So that nonsense falls into the category of "woowoo conspiracy theory". 

Especially since we all know that a single mediocre riven is easily going to be worth more than a day's worth of prime junk trades. 

22 minutes ago, Gasau said:

Yes, imagine, I do not want to use third-party sites, but I have to do this because the game does not provide normal conditions for trading.

Yes, imagine, that someone who knows a bit about how video game economies works, thought about if they should add this and recognized that it would be a terrible idea and that's why it's not in the game. 

 

25 minutes ago, Gasau said:

the ability to quickly earn platinum? What percentage of players do you think dont know about warframe market if it is mentioned everywhere?

I can tell you at least two players who don't want to use it for selling, and one of them doesn't. 

26 minutes ago, Gasau said:

I think most of the players use the site. Because people will go to any lengths for freebies. And prices, in my opinion, have stabilized a long time ago.

Freebies? That you have to pay for? Come again? Seriously? And you're entitled to your opinions, but honestly you are sort of demonstrating that a lot of the stuff you are coming up with isn't really connected to reality. 

33 minutes ago, Gasau said:

And yes that makes sense. 

Even if the market is introduced, prices do not collapse by 1,000,000,000%, no need to be a drama queen here.

See? Not connecting to reality in any way unless PC sees sets of prime parts selling for a few billion plat. The reduction will probably take place just a few plat at a time, but happen very rapidly, because people want the plat just a bit more than you do. 

New primes already drop price drastically within the first day. Why? Because supply increases rapidly, and people are willing to sell for less to get a piece of the pie. Warframe market caused prices to drop when it was introduced too. Why? Because supply increases rapidly, and people are willing to sell for less to get a piece of the pie. 

The system that you're asking for, does the same thing. Do you want to guess why prices would drop drastically? 

 

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10 минут назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

Yeah I did, because it is ridiculous. I've already said that I give stuff away more often than I sell things. So that nonsense falls into the category of "woowoo conspiracy theory". 

Especially since we all know that a single mediocre riven is easily going to be worth more than a day's worth of prime junk trades. 

Ah yes. I dont do that = nobody do that.

Talking about reality check. Twice.

And you put MR scam in "conspiracy theory" Really?

 

 

You just play with words to fit your narrative. The economy will not collapse from the internal market because it already exists, only outside.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Gasau said:

Ah yes. I dont do that = nobody do that.

So you're really saying that you do it! No surprise there. It also explains why you don't get sales for your overpriced items, it's because everyone knows how you take advantage of newbies and then price gouge! 

 

See how ridiculous it is when someone does it to you? 

 

4 minutes ago, Gasau said:

Ah yes. I dont do that = nobody do that.

Talking about reality check. Twice.

And you put MR scam in "conspiracy theory" Really? 

Yes, because it's a ridiculous conspiracy that has no basis in reality. Really. 

5 minutes ago, Gasau said:

You just play with words to fit your narrative. The economy will not collapse from the internal market because it already exists, only outside.

Here let me quote what someone said:

2 hours ago, Gasau said:

the only argument which became for them something like a bible is that the market will lead to massive price reductions.

Yeah, like it's not happening at warframe market right now

The person who posted that recognised that regardless of the source of the problem, the market is on a path of obvious collapse. Do you think that you want to find out who wrote that and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about? 

You're free to do so. I'll be over in the back making popcorn. 

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12 минут назад, (PS4)guzmantt1977 сказал:

Yes, because it's a ridiculous conspiracy that has no basis in reality. Really. 

you look like tobacco companies that are opposed to smoking bans right now.

 

well you lost me here anyway.

calling scam a conspiracy theory and assure that it does not exist in warframe it's the same as believing in a flat earth.

 

I have no intention of dealing with a troll or an idiot.

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23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The person who posted that recognised that regardless of the source of the problem, the market is on a path of obvious collapse. Do you think that you want to find out who wrote that and tell them that they don't know what they're talking about? 

 

3 minutes ago, Gasau said:

I have no intention of dealing with a troll or an idiot. 

Dude don't call yourself that. It's probably against the TOS of the forums. 

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My Counters on Common Arguments Against Auction House

  • Prices would plummet
    • You would still be limited to MR+1 number of trades per day, so you'd still need to pick-and-choose what trades you take. Because of this, you are't going to see mass-liquidation or anything or the sort-- you'd see exactly what we see already. People using some trades to unload their most valuable stuff, others to acquire needed stuff, and then capping out and having to wait until the next day to shop.
    • Just as with warframe.market, you can impose a limit on the number of items listed at a time. warframe.market 's limit is capped at 100 items unless you pay. Warframe's AH could have much more aggressive caps, like MR+1 listable items, but offer options to grow that number... (see next)
       
  • DE wouldn't make as much money as people wouldn't need to buy as much plat
    • How does the steam marketplace make so much money? Well, steam takes a cut off every trade. So what if usage of the in-game AH also comes with similar catches? Perhaps DE gets a cut of every trade, or perhaps there's a listing fee every time you put up a new item? This helps prevent that "pricing collapse" everyone is so concerned about, because now more than ever you need to be choosy about what you list and for how much.
    • Slots! Warframe loves its slots. Want to be able to list more items than your current relatively-low cap? Give DE money! X plat per slot to increase the number of items you can list on the AH. DE gets a new source of money coming in, the game has a new platinum sink, and investing in plat should give those players that leverage the extra slots more income in the long run from being able to list more items simultaneously.
Edited by sly_squash
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I have never heard a valid argument against such a system.

 

They all basically boil down to some lame excuse about interaction (because nothing says meaningful interaction more than spamming "WTS: *ITEM* - $" for an hour only to finally find a buyer and spend 30 seconds together in a dojo or Maroo's bazaar.) or some petulant, almost childish "we don't wanna!" Kind of reasoning.

Sadly however, DE has made it abundantly clear that they don't care about player convenience. Probably because they feel that if selling items for plat is a PITA, maybe people will just buy it.

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I came from SWTOR, and was surprised that WF didn't have a similar set up.  In SWTOR, you got an in game market you can sell.  You can also send things via mail, you can also set it up so it's "cash on delivery".  So if you're in chat and sell something, you can mail it to the person and they pay when they pick it up from their mail.  This is a much needed addition to WF to be honest.  It's a pain going to and from Dojo's to sell something, especially if you do it often.  Let us send things off in mail, and let us send regular mail to one another!

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