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Auction in warframe and why we need a market system rework


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29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm talking about the fact that for many of us "prime junk" includes multiple full sets of vaulted items. Right now they're worth is 0 because we don't sell items very often. 

You and I have very different ideas of what "prime junk" is. Junk is inherently disorderly. A set isn't prime junk because it's structured rather than disorderly. And they're worth 0 because you don't list them. Because listing ANYWHERE currently incurs a cost (warframe.market's cost is one of your limited 100 slots, trade chat's cost is it constitutes part of a 180 character listing you can only do once every 3 minutes or so).

29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So folks like me can sell them for 3-4 plat and still make a large profit. New players, new f2p players are the only ones who will suffer. Do you really want that? 

I've already said that the AH has nothing to do with prime junk prices because it isn't feasible to use AH listings to buy and sell dynamically heterogeneous collections of items.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes that's what I'm talking about. Pretty sure I have a bunch of him left, how's 10p for the set sound? Sounds like profit to me. 

Is this that "AH will drive prices down" argument? You want to sell vaulted Nekros Prime sets at 10p a piece. Knock yourself out. I'll do what I do with warframe.market already--wait for the early listers to run out of stock and list as the prices go up from the ensuing scarcity.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Oh you have no idea how little plat I'd be losing on the sales for the convenience of it all. And no, trade in chat is not slow for me. Mainly because I am willing to offer reasonable prices based on the current going rates and the response I get to my offers. 

Hey, you do you. If you're rather not spend plat on convenience, that your prerogative. Many users are. Why can we rush frames? Subsumes? Buy gear outright instead of farm it? Because it's more convenient. DE's entire business model is to tax our time and convenience. If listing via AH for a small cost means I can tackle longer missions and/or spend more time doing missions, it's probably cost effective for me to list via that means anyway.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

The spammers tend to be posting requests that are significantly out of line with reality at any given point in time. On PS4 we get lunatics asking 3k plat for a non-top tier riven. Why? Because they checked the PC prices and assumed that they are entitled to that amount. I've had one person insist that the going rate for prime junk is what they saw on YouTube which was the PC rate, and double the price anywhere on PS4. We see newbies desperate for plat asking 10, 20 or 25 plat per piece, when rares regularly go for 5, and can be had for 1.

Great. So by having an AH where people can ground their prices against what is standard for the platform, you will get fewer scammers preying on unknowledgeable players who have built-in tools to better understand the market and fewer spammers filling trade chat with outrageous offers. Sounds like a win for AH to me.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Thats not something that your system will change. The only difference is that instead of complaining that market is a scam, they'll say the kiosks are a scam. 

Why? I would think it would be the opposite--we'd have players that think the AH is a scam because listing offers requires plat whereas kiosks remain free. But it's not any more of a scam than rushing frames or buying a weapon straight from Marketplace instead of farming it. Players that value their time and convenience can pay the costs, and the rest can deal with constant missions interruptions for trade request PM's and sitting by their kiosk for hours on end spamming trade chat to save a few plat by refusing to just make a listing.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 And it's not just the lack of rarity, it's the fact that for most items in this game, once we own it, it won't ever degrade, need repair or replacement.

That's wrong.

Powercreep is a thing.

Fomo/Fotm is a thing.

They arguably both have a significant effect on the market.

But others not concerned by them can still profit off of them.

They increase demand for certain items, but that increase is not stable or consistent, it's just there, it's significant and exploitable, but not dependable.

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39 minutes ago, kgabor said:

That's wrong.

Powercreep is a thing.

Fomo/Fotm is a thing.

They arguably both have a significant effect on the market.

But others not concerned by them can still profit off of them.

They increase demand for certain items, but that increase is not stable or consistent, it's just there, it's significant and exploitable, but not dependable.

Sigh. 

When catchmoon secondaries were nerfed, did you buy a second one to replace the one that was nerfed because the first one was not as powerful? Or do you just have the first one? How about Mag or Wukong prime? Buying new items isn't the same as replacing one that got used up, or broke over time. 

Afaik there was one way to lose items in the game before HoD, other than selling it. Almost everything in the game is build once own forever. 

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57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

You and I have very different ideas of what "prime junk" is. Junk is inherently disorderly. A set isn't prime junk because it's structured rather than disorderly. And they're worth 0 because you don't list them. Because listing ANYWHERE currently incurs a cost (warframe.market's cost is one of your limited 100 slots, trade chat's cost is it constitutes part of a 180 character listing you can only do once every 3 minutes or so).

Yes. I have a lot of the blueprints. A LOT of them and no significant motivation to sell them. That means that they are pretty worthless to me. Make it easy for people like me to sell them and 1p is infinitely more than I was getting. Pure profit! Wanna see if you can compete on prices? How about for the f2p Tenno who are desperate for plat, you think that you can compete against them? Not going to happen. 

57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

I've already said that the AH has nothing to do with prime junk prices because it isn't feasible to use AH listings to buy and sell dynamically heterogeneous collections of items.

Not feasible for you to do it. My inventory says otherwise. And there are vets with a lot more than I have. A LOT more. 

57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Is this that "AH will drive prices down" argument? You want to sell vaulted Nekros Prime sets at 10p a piece. Knock yourself out. I'll do what I do with warframe.market already--wait for the early listers to run out of stock and list as the prices go up from the ensuing scarcity.

No wonder you support an Auction House, you set your price above market value and seem to not make the connection between that and how long it takes to sell. Remember that buyers are not unlimited. You only see a sale if there are customers left over when everyone like me is done selling. 

57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Hey, you do you. If you're rather not spend plat on convenience, that your prerogative. Many users are. Why can we rush frames? Subsumes? Buy gear outright instead of farm it? Because it's more convenient. DE's entire business model is to tax our time and convenience. If listing via AH for a small cost means I can tackle longer missions and/or spend more time doing missions, it's probably cost effective for me to list via that means anyway.

You don't get it. I would be able to lowball you, spend the plat and still see a profit. Quite a lot of people would be willing to do the same. They already do it when they sell prime junk. That's your competition when you make it easy for everyone to sell. 

57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Great. So by having an AH where people can ground their prices against what is standard for the platform, you will get fewer scammers preying on unknowledgeable players who have built-in tools to better understand the market and fewer spammers filling trade chat with outrageous offers. Sounds like a win for AH to me.

What scammers? They're not scammers any more than you are, with your unrealistic prices. They're just more delusional. And they will continue to exist and blame everyone else, just like you are doing here. 

57 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Why? I would think it would be the opposite--we'd have players that think the AH is a scam because listing offers requires plat whereas kiosks remain free. But it's not any more of a scam than rushing frames or buying a weapon straight from Marketplace instead of farming it. Players that value their time and convenience can pay the costs, and the rest can deal with constant missions interruptions for trade request PM's and sitting by their kiosk for hours on end spamming trade chat to save a few plat by refusing to just make a listing.

They're ultimately the same thing. Auction house, kiosks, consignment stores. All the same but with different names. And anyone spamming trade or waiting for hours, has set the wrong price. 

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Just now, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes. I have a lot of the blueprints. A LOT of them and no significant motivation to sell them. That means that they are pretty worthless to me. Make it easy for people like me to sell them and 1p is infinitely more than I was getting. Pure profit! Wanna see if you can compete on prices? How about for the f2p Tenno who are desperate for plat, you think that you can compete against them? Not going to happen. 

Sure, but remember the trade limit. Do you really want to sink your 20 or so trades into listings that produce 1p a piece, particularly given they carry a listing fee or tax? No? Then what's the problem?

2 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not feasible for you to do it. My inventory says otherwise. And there are vets with a lot more than I have. A LOT more. 

And they're as trade-limited, listing slot-limited, and taxed as you would be, so they're also disincentived from using an AH to perform 1p trades.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No wonder you support an Auction House, you set your price above market value and seem to not make the connection between that and how long it takes to sell. Remember that buyers are not unlimited. You only see a sale if there are customers left over when everyone like me is done selling. 

And as the item is vaulted that stock will exhaust eventually. Literally nothing changes about this whether the listings come from warframe.market, trade chat, or an AH.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You don't get it. I would be able to lowball you, spend the plat and still see a profit. Quite a lot of people would be willing to do the same. They already do it when they sell prime junk. That's your competition when you make it easy for everyone to sell. 

You can lowball me on warframe.market already. Prices still remain stabile because at some point it the cost of undercutting others makes the sale cost-ineffective for the time it takes to farm. Even if you had a stockpile and were dead-set on tanking the market on a specific item for god-knows-why, I'd just use the slot to sell something more valuable. You're as slot limited as I am; you can't cover everything.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

What scammers? They're not scammers any more than you are, with your unrealistic prices. They're just more delusional. And they will continue to exist and blame everyone else, just like you are doing here. 

Because they're exploiting players that lack market knowledge. By making market prices more accessible, you help the average joe from predatory behavior. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone "bragging" about the redeemer riven they got for 20p because the seller didn't know it was worth something and thought "dude, that's scummy AF". I like a fair trade, and I like that the AH encourages fair trades by giving us an in-game reference by which traders can ground their offers.

14 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

They're ultimately the same thing. Auction house, kiosks, consignment stores. All the same but with different names. And anyone spamming trade or waiting for hours, has set the wrong price. 

Well, I disagree. I don't really care how low you price your Tetra godroll riven, I'm just not really interested in rivens for that weapon (except insofar as maybe to buy it and resell it, but as I've already said I like fair trades so the only way I could do that is to lowball you which I'm opposed to doing). But surely somewhere out there you'll find someone who really wants that specific riven--it just takes time. And that's OK.

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I don't think that is going to happen due to the issues of plat scammers. you can dispute/reverse a charge on a credit card and have it canceled even after the trade is complet. the way that the system works, the plat you received in a trade is still tied to that original transaction, so if it is voided, that plat will be removed. The best outcome is that you loose the plat, the worst outcome is that your plat goes negative and you are banned. De does a bunch to prevent this, but people still do it.

Now if you have an auction house, this becomes a far FAR larger problem and scammers can use it to londer stuff in less round about ways, but more importantly it becomes more of a legal issue to DE then current as it would be them as the middle person not direct player to player. 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

All these Auction House threads do is expose the cheap, lazy, and uninformed.

So much truth in this since the ops behind these threads are "I'm too lazy to intereact with people and I don't want to play the game" or just can't figure simple things like what's in demand even though they claim the chat is all rivens my fortune of plat is off of sets, parts, ayatans and i can make a few hundred easy if i have the stock

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The easiest solution that would cause the least amount of damage is introduce auction slots.

Players have a limited amount of items they can put on auction not unlike the trade limits we currently have.

This would artificially bottleneck the supply of items available for auction so prices don't immediately tank due to increased supply.

If you want more auction slots, you need to cough up plat. 

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1 hour ago, Angwah said:

If 40 people offer an item for which there are 10 buyers, that eventually settles down into a price. You can multiply the number of participants in our market but if the supply-demand ratio remains the same so the pricing will be in the same general order of magnitude.

I really want you to think about the example you just gave. If there are 40 sellers and 10 buyers, that means that ultimately 30 of the items are worth 0 plat. Even in your example the vast majority of items aren't going to ever sell, and the average worth approaches zero. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Your assumption is that the current trading population is not a representative sample of the community as a whole.

 

Not at all. What I'm saying very clearly is that in the current system, the number of concurrent sellers is less than the total population, and generally less than the total concurrent number of players as many of us are busy with other things. So competition for sales is effectively limited. Remove that limitation and you will potentially have an exponential increase in the number of sellers, while the number of buyers would not be increased significantly. 

Now that I have corrected you I'll skip most of the rest of what you wrote. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

 No, I did not. Reread what I wrote.

I can do better, let me quote your post where you acknowledge the fact. 

18 hours ago, Angwah said:

Sure, when warframe.market made its appearance it was a shock to the market, that increased accessibility, you know. A larger volume of platinum and trades in the community will make the cheap stuff cheaper but also in the end raise the price of the more expensive items. 

Literally the only items that classify as truly "expensive" in our system are those which are unique, and in very limited supply due to discontinuation. 

So yes, you did acknowledge the effect warframe.market had, and the conditions which already exist and would be exacerbated by your suggestion. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

As I described above it is the relationship between supply and demand is what sets prices. Without diving deep into mathematics and theory as we increase the volume of trading this puts pressure on the sections of the market where the supply-demand ratio's are unbalanced.

Congratulations, I have been explaining that concept for most of the thread. Glad you are on the same page. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

In short, what is cheaper becomes even cheaper, what is more expensive rises in price. That is related to turnover speeds of the stocks present on the market-place.

Of ffs. :facepalm: God tier Rivens. Discontinued items. These are the things that are expensive. That's because they're to only things that are truly in short supply. Even your vaulted primes aren't really in short supply, just restricted. They're the things that will retain value, everything else..... Nope. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

What is important however is that is not a market crash at all. On the whole the total value remains exactly the same!

No. See above. 

 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Yes, yes, so you keep repeating this as fact, but again, without any evidence, so I'll repeat my counter: the barriers the current system throws up are the same for buying as they are for selling. What makes you think they stop people from selling but not buying?

No. Repeat after me, under your system anyone can be a seller because they farmed a thing. Only people who don't yet own something, AND want to own it, AND have the plat to buy it, AND are online at the same time as you, will ever buy from you. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Restrict it somehow? I was pretty explicit actually. An ingame AH where you are restricted to putting up a number of items for sale equal to your MR would boil down to reducing supply if you think about it a little deeper as on warframe market I can put up a hundred. There are many variables DE can play with using an ingame AH to steer supply and demand to a certain level. 

Since the restrictions you propose still result in a massive increase of supply, the actual method is inconsequential. Try to understand that. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Change is not inherently bad.

No it's not, but bad changes are inherently bad. What you are proposing is a bad change. So it's bad. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Uhuh, those people who do not buy plat but are active players, hence having bought slots? Guess what they are doing already? Trading for plat, and yes, that starts with selling but doesn't end there! This is not the segment of the player base who opts out of the market either. They are represented already too, and lo and behold, not responsible for market crashes!

Yes because the current system allows them to do so more easily than one where they face exponentially higher competition for the same number of buyers and will need to reduce their prices, in a race to zero because of the Tragedy of the Commons. Again the market is in an inevitable slow decline, prices will always fall in the long run, yes vaulting and Baro help but they only slow the trend, they can't halt it completely. 

Your proposal is going to change that and hasten the decline by permanently increasing supply. 

 

Please try to understand that I'm not the only person who has been explaining this on the thread. Others who have thought about it, and aren't letting the illusory wealth cloud our judgement,have all come to the same conclusions. What you propose is not new. Others have said the same thing, but they do not have any solution to the problem of decoupling supply from demand, and that's a very real, very large problem. Other game economies have suffered the same results when auction houses are added. 

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2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

Sure, but remember the trade limit. Do you really want to sink your 20 or so trades into listings that produce 1p a piece, particularly given they carry a listing fee or tax? No? Then what's the problem?

Why not? I don't typically use my 20+ trades for the day these days except when giving stuff to people for free. 20 trades at 5 plat per trade is 100 plat. If I list each set for 5plat above the tax, I'm raking in over a hundred plat per day. Easy profit. 

Are. You. Able. To Compete. With. Bored. Or. Desperate. People. Who. Are. Willing. To. Earn. 100. Plat. Per. Day? 

That's the problem, Tenno. 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

And they're as trade-limited, listing slot-limited, and taxed as you would be, so they're also disincentived from using an AH to perform 1p trades.

And they would be a lot more desperate than I for the plat, because they need it to buy the slots, and listing slots, and gear, and cosmetics, so they drop prices because they NEED to compete ..... or they're going to stop playing. Either way that's bad. 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

And as the item is vaulted that stock will exhaust eventually. Literally nothing changes about this whether the listings come from warframe.market, trade chat, or an AH.

Eventually. When our relics are exhausted. The first time. But the next time all of the buyers are now sellers as well. Guess what happens that time? And the time after that? 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

You can lowball me on warframe.market already. Prices still remain stabile because at some point it the cost of undercutting others makes the sale cost-ineffective for the time it takes to farm. Even if you had a stockpile and were dead-set on tanking the market on a specific item for god-knows-why, I'd just use the slot to sell something more valuable. You're as slot limited as I am; you can't cover everything.

And this is why we have complaints about things not selling. An auction house won't create more buyers, just increase the number of people who you have competing against you, exponentially. I'm not the only person who can undercut you, hell I'm not even significantly motivated to do so, but there are people who will be. A LOT of people. 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

Because they're exploiting players that lack market knowledge. By making market prices more accessible, you help the average joe from predatory behavior. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone "bragging" about the redeemer riven they got for 20p because the seller didn't know it was worth something and thought "dude, that's scummy AF". I like a fair trade, and I like that the AH encourages fair trades by giving us an in-game reference by which traders can ground their offers.

You are also doing that by listing your wares at higher prices than the lowest on warframe.market so.... You are a scammer, or it's not a scam. 

2 hours ago, sly_squash said:

Well, I disagree. I don't really care how low you price your Tetra godroll riven, I'm just not really interested in rivens for that weapon (except insofar as maybe to buy it and resell it, but as I've already said I like fair trades so the only way I could do that is to lowball you which I'm opposed to doing). But surely somewhere out there you'll find someone who really wants that specific riven--it just takes time. And that's OK.

Doesn't matter if you disagree. Doesn't change anything. And have fun being the spammer you are complaining about. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Sigh. 

When catchmoon secondaries were nerfed, did you buy a second one to replace the one that was nerfed because the first one was not as powerful? Or do you just have the first one? How about Mag or Wukong prime? Buying new items isn't the same as replacing one that got used up, or broke over time. 

Afaik there was one way to lose items in the game before HoD, other than selling it. Almost everything in the game is build once own forever. 

Sure, the riven limit makes sure there are players dumping or selling their 'off-meta' or 'weak' rivens once they have no use for them, mainly whales.

Meta addicts will buy whatever is the most effective/lazy/or simply popular at the time.

This game caters to new players, bringing a large amount of demand with no supply.

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes. I have a lot of the blueprints. A LOT of them and no significant motivation to sell them. That means that they are pretty worthless to me. Make it easy for people like me to sell them and 1p is infinitely more than I was getting. Pure profit! Wanna see if you can compete on prices? How about for the f2p Tenno who are desperate for plat, you think that you can compete against them? Not going to happen. 

Not feasible for you to do it. My inventory says otherwise. And there are vets with a lot more than I have. A LOT more. 

You seem to believe that you or players with a similar amount of supply are in the majority when that's obviously not true, the majority of players trading are new players with little to no items to sell, some being compulsive buyers or 'whales'.

Realistically, even the small amount of veterans have relatively little effect on the market in the greater scheme with little to no incentive to increase their supply, or trade, since they already have pretty much everything in the game and the new players have much less supply than them.

As the trade system is currently set, i see keeping it as uncomfortable as possible as a bandaid to DE's poor way of dealing with the rarity of the supply of in game items as everything is so easy to acquire.

DE likes their bandaids, this game could be renamed to Bandaidframe and Trade chat to Bandaid chat or Endgame chat or simply Conclave 2.0.

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En 13/9/2020 a las 3:03, alex51xx dijo:

Today  I selling  my pretty  good  rivets for Rubiko and spend  around  5 hours  to sell it . And I'm start thinking  : what if we have an auction  system  in Warframe ? 

You take your Loki system for example  , set it in auction  terminal , which  be based  in relays and sell it for 200 plat . Game automatically add it in item base and you just go play with your friends  . 

After some time you see , that someone  bought  Loki system for 200 , and you got 90% of sum (10% take auction  terminal ).

It can be really  , really  good  thing  to game . 

And in Inbox ryou receive messages of the bids you are receiving, just to have some tracking, or should it be in another menu.

Yeah i would like to have something like that, so instead of waiting for someone to be interested i could just leave and play missions without also the need of retyping it 100 times.

Do you think it would be useful to have something like semlar riven guide stats in-game?, just so people dont get scammed.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I really want you to think about the example you just gave. If there are 40 sellers and 10 buyers, that means that ultimately 30 of the items are worth 0 plat. Even in your example the vast majority of items aren't going to ever sell, and the average worth approaches zero. 

Haha, no. Weren't you talking about near infinite supply and dwindling demand? So this is the current situation, no, not some theoretical construct. And in many cases not only in this virtual economy, but the real actual world as well. And yet, mysteriously, somehow, both in the real world and on Warframe Market so much stuff has a value higher than zero!

Woooooo. Must be magic!

Except of course, it is not. Somehow your logic contains a flaw, because, you know, reality sorta contradicts you. Anyway, no, supply > demand -> stock worthless is just not how this works.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Not at all. What I'm saying very clearly is that in the current system, the number of concurrent sellers is less than the total population, and generally less than the total concurrent number of players as many of us are busy with other things. So competition for sales is effectively limited. Remove that limitation and you will potentially have an exponential increase in the number of sellers, while the number of buyers would not be increased significantly. 

Now that I have corrected you I'll skip most of the rest of what you wrote. 

Nope. You dance around the stated point, pretending to answer, but neglecting to do so.

Which is that the number of concurrent buyers is equally limited. The entirety of your argument rests on the thesis that the current situation stops people selling, but somehow, must be magic again, does not stop them from buying. You keep repeating this mantra but that does not make it any more true each time you do.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Literally the only items that classify as truly "expensive" in our system are those which are unique, and in very limited supply due to discontinuation. 

So yes, you did acknowledge the effect warframe.market had, and the conditions which already exist and would be exacerbated by your suggestion. 

You may say I did, but again, this does not make it true! 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Of ffs. :facepalm: God tier Rivens. Discontinued items. These are the things that are expensive. That's because they're to only things that are truly in short supply. Even your vaulted primes aren't really in short supply, just restricted. They're the things that will retain value, everything else..... Nope. 

Yawn, You may declare that only god-tier rivens are expensive and that therefore, by my logic, everything below that would plummet to 1 platinum, but that is nonsense.

There is plenty of variation between the cheap 1 platinum mods and that 1K+ riven.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Since the restrictions you propose still result in a massive increase of supply, the actual method is inconsequential. Try to understand that. 

Except that it would do the exact opposite. You are just ignoring what I wrote. The ability to put up 100 items for sale on warframe market vs your MR rank (just an arbitrary limit for the sake of argument btw) is a huge difference. Oh, and again you repeat that people currently not trading would only be interested in selling, not buying should they get the chance to do so, because that is the only situation in which an increase of supply would result in lower prices. 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No. Repeat after me, under your system anyone can be a seller because they farmed a thing. Only people who don't yet own something, AND want to own it, AND have the plat to buy it, AND are online at the same time as you, will ever buy from you. 

o.O

You realize you are describing the current system, not 'my' system? Yes, thanks to Semlar, Warframe Market and the like sellers are having their prices determined by everyone who has put up the same item for sale in recent history, no matter whether they are online or offline! The pool of interested buyers however is constrained to those who are online at the exact same moment you flag yourself as open for business.

You also realise you are describing a buyer's market, yes? And that you are contradicting your own statements of how tinkering with the current system will not increase demand, only supply?

Because what I described would open up the pool of potential buyers to all interested parties, while at the same time constraining sellers to offering a much smaller portion of their stock for trade. 

Oh, and you don't have to repeat me. Unlike you I don't believe repitition validates anything.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes because the current system allows them to do so more easily than one where they face exponentially higher competition for the same number of buyers and will need to reduce their prices, in a race to zero because of the Tragedy of the Commons. Again the market is in an inevitable slow decline, prices will always fall in the long run, yes vaulting and Baro help but they only slow the trend, they can't halt it completely. 

Your proposal is going to change that and hasten the decline by permanently increasing supply. 

 

Please try to understand that I'm not the only person who has been explaining this on the thread. Others who have thought about it, and aren't letting the illusory wealth cloud our judgement,have all come to the same conclusions. What you propose is not new. Others have said the same thing, but they do not have any solution to the problem of decoupling supply from demand, and that's a very real, very large problem. Other game economies have suffered the same results when auction houses are added. 

Look, I played plenty of online games with AH's. Still do. They are most definitely not a barren wasteland of goods valued at 1 gold piece or whatever the currency of choice is. Your hyperbole is just that, hyperbole. 

You are explaining nothing. You offer no reason whatsoever why only supply would rise and not demand, on the contrary even. Me and others have explained why that logic is flawed, but you refuse to engage with the arguments laid before you.

You are also willfully ignoring the many possibilities that actually do address how changing the current system can potentially limit supply while at the same time allowing more people to participate. All you do is repeating your mantra of 'supply up, demand down, market will crash, doom and gloom! reeee!'.

So yeah, while I am willing to understand you, you are not backing up your position with actual reasoning, just your feefees even when contradicted by observable reality. Anyway, I said my piece. 

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5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why not? I don't typically use my 20+ trades for the day these days except when giving stuff to people for free. 20 trades at 5 plat per trade is 100 plat. If I list each set for 5plat above the tax, I'm raking in over a hundred plat per day. Easy profit.  

Again, what's stopping you from doing that right now? I promise you that if you list a set on warframe.market that's currently going for 100p for 5p, you will get spammed for offers, mostly by undercutters who intend to resell way more than the purchase price what you're listing after you've exhausted your supply for. You could literally just go to dojo after putting it up and exhaust your trades giving away sets to anyone who watched the ticker, with any given person probably buying more than one set from you for selling at such an unsustainable price point. You can grossly undercut the competition using no matter what the trading interface; it simply isn't financially prudent to do it if the price you're selling at isn't worth giving up the trades or sustainable given effort of farming the items.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And they would be a lot more desperate than I for the plat, because they need it to buy the slots, and listing slots, and gear, and cosmetics, so they drop prices because they NEED to compete ..... or they're going to stop playing. Either way that's bad. 

Again your logic doesn't make sense. A new player already "needs to compete" in order to earn enough plat the advance in this game, but they can only sell what they have. This is why low-tier mods that can be earned quickly in the game are of course going to fetch low prices. I'm not worried about a "new player desperate for plat" selling 20 sets of Nekros Prime sets at 10p a piece because they "have to"--new players aren't competing with veterans in selling R5 arcanes or vaulted primes because they simply don't have them, as you need to advance or be around in this game long enough to have such things at all. The vets will use their slots to sell the harder-to-farm stuff that new players have trouble accessing but want because now each trade fetches a premium, and the new players will do what they've always had to do: make do selling whatever they can get their hands on to try to progress far enough to be able to farm the higher tier stuff. Nothing's fundamentally changed other than everyone gets to spend more time playing the game with their friends and less abandoning parties and leaving missions early to trade due to an archaic godawful trade system.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Eventually. When our relics are exhausted. The first time. But the next time all of the buyers are now sellers as well. Guess what happens that time? And the time after that? 

Which is exactly what happens now anyway, and we all do just fine. Look at valuable primes like Loki and Rhino. While they're vaulted, there are lots of buyers, but once they become unvaulted the market gets saturated and everyone gets a copy, then when they're revaulted prices go back up slowly because new players still come into the game that missed this window. There will be a lot of sellers for a while (same as what happens now) but before long stocks diminish and those that wait gain.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And this is why we have complaints about things not selling. An auction house won't create more buyers, just increase the number of people who you have competing against you, exponentially. I'm not the only person who can undercut you, hell I'm not even significantly motivated to do so, but there are people who will be. A LOT of people. 

Not exponentially--we're all limited in listing slots. Let's say I use 80/100 slots on warframe.market. I can only list, say, 30 of those items with the AH, so I duplicate the entry for 30 of the items into my AH listings. Even if everyone else one warframe.market happened to re-list the same 20-30 items I did when migrating them into the AH, I'd still be competing against the same people at the same price point. The AH would be more slot-limited than warframe.market, so it's impossible to see more competition for the items I'm selling than I'm already seeing. If anything, by comparison the AH listings for an item would be much more barren than the warframe.market equivalent, because of the taxed and more limited slots. Now you can argue new players don't use warframe.market so they'd be spamming my listings, but new players also wouldn't be using the in-game AH because they don't have the plat to making their listings worthwhile, nor the advanced gear I would be selling there.

Nothing you're saying makes sense, mate.

 

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You are also doing that by listing your wares at higher prices than the lowest on warframe.market so.... You are a scammer, or it's not a scam. 

I disagree-- If I'm listing a price that's higher than the lowest available on warframe.market, you can see the lowest price on warframe.market. I'm just waiting for the lower-priced people to sell out or go offline. It's not scamming because you're plainly aware of standard pricing and pricing history. The issue with trade chat is the numbers simply aren't grounded. I don't have a reference point to know if the Redirection they're selling is worth 300p unless I'm actively advised to go to warframe.market to check first. If the AH is built into warframe, it helps sufficiently ground prices that it becomes much harder to scam.

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Doesn't matter if you disagree. Doesn't change anything. And have fun being the spammer you are complaining about. 

Undercutting all the time is simply not sustainable. The reason prices settle to where they are is because that's the value attributed to the amount of effort they are to farm. Dip below that line, and you're putting in more work for less gain. If you're pricing so aggressively you expect every advertisement to produce a trade request, you're doing it inefficiently. Both your farming isn't productive per the amount of plat you can gain from it, and your limited daily trades aren't going to full use.

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43 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Haha, no. Weren't you talking about near infinite supply and dwindling demand? So this is the current situation, no, not some theoretical construct. And in many cases not only in this virtual economy, but the real actual world as well. And yet, mysteriously, somehow, both in the real world and on Warframe Market so much stuff has a value higher than zero!

Woooooo. Must be magic!

Except of course, it is not. Somehow your logic contains a flaw, because, you know, reality sorta contradicts you. Anyway, no, supply > demand -> stock worthless is just not how this works.

Sigh.....Which part of "the system we have right now artificially limits supply because not every seller is ever selling at the same time, but under the system you propose ALL potential sellers can sell at the SAME time, INCREASING supply FAR BEYOND current supply" don't you grasp, other than "all of it, which sort of disqualifies me from being able to have a logical conversation about this topic"?

51 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Nope. You dance around the stated point, pretending to answer, but neglecting to do so.

Which is that the number of concurrent buyers is equally limited. The entirety of your argument rests on the thesis that the current situation stops people selling, but somehow, must be magic again, does not stop them from buying. You keep repeating this mantra but that does not make it any more true each time you do.

Supply is greater than demand for almost every single item in the game, if you cut the number of potential sellers in half you would STILL have enough of most items to supply all demand. Remember your example of 40 sellers but only 10 buyers? If we cut 40 down to 20, YOU STILL HAVE ENOUGHT FOR ALL OF THE BUYERS, so why on earth would the current system limiting the number of concurrent sellers, stop people from being able to buy? Seriously, just because you can't grasp the concept doesn't make it false.

55 minutes ago, Angwah said:

You may say I did, but again, this does not make it true! 

That's why I provided the quote, that links to the time stamped comment you made. Sorry Tenno, but it's QED time.

56 minutes ago, Angwah said:

Yawn, You may declare that only god-tier rivens are expensive and that therefore, by my logic, everything below that would plummet to 1 platinum, but that is nonsense.

There is plenty of variation between the cheap 1 platinum mods and that 1K+ riven.

Rivens are "unique" items, so the supply for any given one is highly limited, that's literally all that makes them expensive. Discontinued items, are the same. Pretty much everything else is abundant by comparison, and so will never, ever be able to command similar prices on the open market. Doesn't matter if you want to believe that or not, it's fact.

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Except that it would do the exact opposite. You are just ignoring what I wrote. The ability to put up 100 items for sale on warframe market vs your MR rank (just an arbitrary limit for the sake of argument btw) is a huge difference. Oh, and again you repeat that people currently not trading would only be interested in selling, not buying should they get the chance to do so, because that is the only situation in which an increase of supply would result in lower prices. 

Jebas, the instant you propose making selling easier, and increasing the number of sellers, it literally DOES increase the supply. It doesn't matter if you can put 1000 items up on your warframe.market profile, if you don't have the trade slots based on MR, does it? So you're claiming that you'll add a restriction that already exists, but ignoring the fact that if you double the number of sellers with an item who can trade simultaneously, it guarantees the end result, lower prices.

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

o.O

You realize you are describing the current system, not 'my' system? Yes, thanks to Semlar, Warframe Market and the like sellers are having their prices determined by everyone who has put up the same item for sale in recent history, no matter whether they are online or offline! The pool of interested buyers however is constrained to those who are online at the exact same moment you flag yourself as open for business.

You also realise you are describing a buyer's market, yes? And that you are contradicting your own statements of how tinkering with the current system will not increase demand, only supply?

Because what I described would open up the pool of potential buyers to all interested parties, while at the same time constraining sellers to offering a much smaller portion of their stock for trade. 

Oh, and you don't have to repeat me. Unlike you I don't believe repitition validates anything.

Ok, how tf do you think that it will increase the number of buyers? Seriously? How do you not grasp that "buyers" MUST have the criteria I described? How do you not grasp that while you may expose yourself to more potential buyers, you also simultaneously expose them to an exponentially greater number of sellers? How do you not grasp that you would not have increased the number of potential buyers in a significant way compare to the number of sellers you produced? At some point even greed can't explain how you're just not getting it. 

1 hour ago, Angwah said:

Look, I played plenty of online games with AH's. Still do. They are most definitely not a barren wasteland of goods valued at 1 gold piece or whatever the currency of choice is. Your hyperbole is just that, hyperbole. 

You are explaining nothing. You offer no reason whatsoever why only supply would rise and not demand, on the contrary even. Me and others have explained why that logic is flawed, but you refuse to engage with the arguments laid before you.

You are also willfully ignoring the many possibilities that actually do address how changing the current system can potentially limit supply while at the same time allowing more people to participate. All you do is repeating your mantra of 'supply up, demand down, market will crash, doom and gloom! reeee!'.

So yeah, while I am willing to understand you, you are not backing up your position with actual reasoning, just your feefees even when contradicted by observable reality. Anyway, I said my piece. 

Oh? How many of them have the following characteristics: Premium currency bought with real money; non-degrading, no need to repair, no need to replace, build once own forever items; droprates for "rare" items that are actually pretty high all things considered; potentially infinite supply of most items; only need one single copy of most items in game; gobally (ok except China) F2P?

If you don't grasp why all of those are factors that affect in-game economies, and that we have all of them simultaneously, I pity you.

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29 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Again, what's stopping you from doing that right now? I promise you that if you list a set on warframe.market that's currently going for 100p for 5p, you will get spammed for offers, mostly by undercutters who intend to resell way more than the purchase price what you're listing after you've exhausted your supply for. You could literally just go to dojo after putting it up and exhaust your trades giving away sets to anyone who watched the ticker, with any given person probably buying more than one set from you for selling at such an unsustainable price point. You can grossly undercut the competition using no matter what the trading interface; it simply isn't financially prudent to do it if the price you're selling at isn't worth giving up the trades or sustainable given effort of farming the items.

Lack of convenience. I really just can't be bothered, that's also why I don't bother to sell most things in trade, it's not worth the in game time. But if you change that, anyone who's been here for a while could contribute to flooding the market, and as others have pointed out, I'm point out what the lowest price is, in reality it would be a more "gradual" decline. The first few would sell for 90, until people catch on. Then when people respond and set their prices at 90, it drops to 80, and so on and so forth. This literally already happens even with the limited number of concurrent sellers, it's just a lot slower than it could be with an AH.

Also... PS4. My PA plat goes a pretty long way here. The auction house crashing the market would benefit me in the short term, but destroy the game in the long term. That's not something that most of us would be likely to enjoy, now is it?

36 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Again your logic doesn't make sense. A new player already "needs to compete" in order to earn enough plat the advance in this game, but they can only sell what they have. This is why low-tier mods that can be earned quickly in the game are of course going to fetch low prices. I'm not worried about a "new player desperate for plat" selling 20 sets of Nekros Prime sets at 10p a piece because they "have to"--new players aren't competing with veterans in selling R5 arcanes or vaulted primes because they simply don't have them, as you need to advance or be around in this game long enough to have such things at all. The vets will use their slots to sell the harder-to-farm stuff that new players have trouble accessing but want because now each trade fetches a premium, and the new players will do what they've always had to do: make do selling whatever they can get their hands on to try to progress far enough to be able to farm the higher tier stuff. Nothing's fundamentally changed other than everyone gets to spend more time playing the game with their friends and less abandoning parties and leaving missions early to trade due to an archaic godawful trade system.

Competing against a smaller number is easier, but again the logic is obvious to anyone who considers the importance of the words, "wts prime junk". Think about what the existence of that phrace means in terms of what a person is willing to do to get a bit of plat to buy slots. If the current system is already so brutal in terms of competition that people will sell stuff that "should be" worth more for just a couple of plat, because that's what it's "actually worth", what do you think that will do to those who are actually trying to sell stuff for 100p?

41 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Which is exactly what happens now anyway, and we all do just fine. Look at valuable primes like Loki and Rhino. While they're vaulted, there are lots of buyers, but once they become unvaulted the market gets saturated and everyone gets a copy, then when they're revaulted prices go back up slowly because new players still come into the game that missed this window. There will be a lot of sellers for a while (same as what happens now) but before long stocks diminish and those that wait gain.

No, mate, you have it backwards, when they're vaulted there are "fewer sellers", not "lots of buyers". Limited supply = higher price; Greater supply = lower price; easier selling = more sellers = greater supply = lower price.

And remember many of us have a crapload of those vaulted relics too, but we don't run them because we already have what's in them. I'm often surprised to see what people go for when I'm just running random fissures for traces, because I don't bother to check the relics I'm cracking other than to see if it's got something I still want/need.

47 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Not exponentially--we're all limited in listing slots. Let's say I use 80/100 slots on warframe.market. I can only list, say, 30 of those items with the AH, so I duplicate the entry for 30 of the items into my AH listings. Even if everyone else one warframe.market happened to re-list the same 20-30 items I did when migrating them into the AH, I'd still be competing against the same people at the same price point. The AH would be more slot-limited than warframe.market, so it's impossible to see more competition for the items I'm selling than I'm already seeing. If anything, by comparison the AH listings for an item would be much more barren than the warframe.market equivalent, because of the taxed and more limited slots. Now you can argue new players don't use warframe.market so they'd be spamming my listings, but new players also wouldn't be using the in-game AH because they don't have the plat to making their listings worthwhile, nor the advanced gear I would be selling there.

Nothing you're saying makes sense, mate.

Exponentially, not the number of "slots" the number of sellers. You can't sell more than your daily trades, so listing 100 sets for sale on the website or 30 doesn't really make a difference, if they are all things that people will buy in a given day. Your auction house will mean that everyone who logs online in a given day, is now a "concurrent seller". Under the current system, only those who are online at any time matter, and only the portion of those who are also trading at the same time as you, have an impact.

Let's pretend that there are 100k players in a day. Let's pretend everyone plays for an hour maximum. Let's pretend that the players are spread evenly over 24 hours. And let's pretend that they sit in trade chat for half of that time, again spread evenly. Your competition at any given point in time would be just over 2k players, at a time.

Add an ah, and all 100k players could be selling items simultaneously, you could have close to 50x more sellers competing for the buyers, who again, can only buy if they're online at any given instant, so that, number hasn't actually gone up at any given instant. Then remember that everyone who buys from one of your competition will NEVER buy your item as anything other than prime junk.

Is that something that sparks joy in you when you think about it?

59 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

I disagree-- If I'm listing a price that's higher than the lowest available on warframe.market, you can see the lowest price on warframe.market. I'm just waiting for the lower-priced people to sell out or go offline. It's not scamming because you're plainly aware of standard pricing and pricing history. The issue with trade chat is the numbers simply aren't grounded. I don't have a reference point to know if the Redirection they're selling is worth 300p unless I'm actively advised to go to warframe.market to check first. If the AH is built into warframe, it helps sufficiently ground prices that it becomes much harder to scam.

Tenno, please, I regularly buy items for lower than the warframe.market price, just by asking in trade chat (this is 100% true). It's also lower than what people are spamming in trade, because that tends to be higher than the price in warframe.market (also 100% true). Your prices are therefore way higher than people are willing to sell for, so you are clearly a scam artist trying to rip people off (this is the logic that you're using, so according to you it must be true). And seriously, just glancing at chat shows you if others are selling for cheaper or more expensive.

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Undercutting all the time is simply not sustainable. The reason prices settle to where they are is because that's the value attributed to the amount of effort they are to farm. Dip below that line, and you're putting in more work for less gain. If you're pricing so aggressively you expect every advertisement to produce a trade request, you're doing it inefficiently. Both your farming isn't productive per the amount of plat you can gain from it, and your limited daily trades aren't going to full use.

It's not sustainable because the market crashing hurts everyone. If what you were saying were inherently true new primes, would retain high values for a long time. The prices crash as people farm the parts on the first day. And again, the existence of prime junk tells you very clearly what people are willing to value the "effort they are to farm". Lemme put it this way, let's say that you're in a first world country, well educated, have a successful business, make a good salary, own your own home, are doing ridiculously well in life compared to most of the planet. You value your time pretty high. Some kid living in the third world, who can go to a "fancy restaurant" for every meal in the day, can eat a day's worth of food (for a westerner to boot) in that fancy restaurant for $10 USD. For them, $10 worth of plat, for the game they enjoy is days worth of food. For a baller like you, we're talking what? A single mixed drink at a decent bar? 

Remember, in this game, that kid is your competition for sales. I guarantee you that he's willing to go lower than someone who isn't in a similar position. And we saw that in so many in-game economies that it's not funny. Hell there were stories about prisons making inmates farm in game currency to let the wardens do RMT's in other games. We don't have that, but you need to understand your competition when you have an AH.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Lack of convenience. I really just can't be bothered, that's also why I don't bother to sell most things in trade, it's not worth the in game time. But if you change that, anyone who's been here for a while could contribute to flooding the market, and as others have pointed out, I'm point out what the lowest price is, in reality it would be a more "gradual" decline. The first few would sell for 90, until people catch on. Then when people respond and set their prices at 90, it drops to 80, and so on and so forth. This literally already happens even with the limited number of concurrent sellers, it's just a lot slower than it could be with an AH.

So you admit that the current system is inconvenient, and your argument against progress is that you enjoy leveraging the inconvenience of a woefully archaic trading system because you believe it befits your plat earnings to not improve it?

3 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Also... PS4. My PA plat goes a pretty long way here. The auction house crashing the market would benefit me in the short term, but destroy the game in the long term. That's not something that most of us would be likely to enjoy, now is it?

I simply don't agree that it would do either. There are checks and balances in place everywhere.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No, mate, you have it backwards, when they're vaulted there are "fewer sellers", not "lots of buyers". Limited supply = higher price; Greater supply = lower price; easier selling = more sellers = greater supply = lower price.

Nope, it's both. As time goes on, there are fewer sellers because existing ones sell out, but there are more buyers because new players join the game and simply cannot obtain the vaulted item without buying it.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Competing against a smaller number is easier, but again the logic is obvious to anyone who considers the importance of the words, "wts prime junk". Think about what the existence of that phrace means in terms of what a person is willing to do to get a bit of plat to buy slots. If the current system is already so brutal in terms of competition that people will sell stuff that "should be" worth more for just a couple of plat, because that's what it's "actually worth", what do you think that will do to those who are actually trying to sell stuff for 100p?

I don't think prime junk has anything to do with 100p sets. Prime junk doesn't sell for much because it's unstructured. Sets are structured, which makes them much harder to complete. And the harder it is to do anything in this game, the more the valuable the result.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And remember many of us have a crapload of those vaulted relics too, but we don't run them because we already have what's in them.

No, you don't run them because this entire game is an "opportunity cost simulator". If you spend time cracking relics, you aren't spending it doing something else that either advances you further in the game or will likely yield more plat. Every mission you start carries the cost of you not doing another that you could have done, and none of us have infinite time to do everything at once.

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Add an ah, and all 100k players could be selling items simultaneously, you could have close to 50x more sellers competing for the buyers, who again, can only buy if they're online at any given instant, so that, number hasn't actually gone up at any given instant. Then remember that everyone who buys from one of your competition will NEVER buy your item as anything other than prime junk.

I disagree. We've already discussed a large contingent of the playerbase would not invest in the slots and plat to list much of anything in the AH, so they're ruled out. In addition, a lot of sellers aren't truly "new" because they're merely re-listing things that are already listed elsewhere. 

And, again, people only ever needing one copy of an item is something we already have and always will. It's fine, because

  • There are always new players joining that need the stuff
  • Listings carry a cost everywhere, so when an item becomes cost-ineffective to list people will move on to other things to list, so listing for that item become scarce, and the scarcity will drive the price back up
  • There are always new items being fed into the game that people do need, and these are the items people will generally migrate towards prioritizing as listing because they carry the most value as everyone in the game "needs" them.
19 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Tenno, please, I regularly buy items for lower than the warframe.market price, just by asking in trade chat (this is 100% true). It's also lower than what people are spamming in trade, because that tends to be higher than the price in warframe.market (also 100% true). Your prices are therefore way higher than people are willing to sell for, so you are clearly a scam artist trying to rip people off (this is the logic that you're using, so according to you it must be true). And seriously, just glancing at chat shows you if others are selling for cheaper or more expensive.

Whatever you say mate. I have literally hundreds of rep on warframe.market from people complimenting my fair pricing, and thousands of recorded riven sales on riven.market. As I've said from the start, I like a fair trade, but for that to happen we both need to have grounded understandings of current pricing.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It's not sustainable because the market crashing hurts everyone. 

You've failed to convince me that this crashes anything. A listing price buttresses any individual price from dropping too far, limited trades buttress the market from getting flooded, and the nature of how long it takes to farm high-value items buttress the system from any kind of prolonged undercutting.

You've already admitted the current system is "inconvenient". This is not a necessary property to sustain an in-game economy. Improving the system benefits everyone involved. DE makes money off each trade. Sellers get the convenience of approving trade requests without dropping out of missions and parties. Buyers get access to an in-game marketplace that is far more resistant to scamming, faster, and much easier to use. Why stand against progress?

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1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

So you admit that the current system is inconvenient, and your argument against progress is that you enjoy leveraging the inconvenience of a woefully archaic trading system because you believe it befits your plat earnings to not improve it?

You literally spent time today quoting me explaining that I hardly sell items and am more likely to use them to give stuff away for free, but in your head you think that I am trying to defend my "plat earnings"? Where's the disconnect between what's going on in your head and reality? Yes, I'm absolutely saying that the trading system sucks, but I am telling you in absolute terms that what you are asking for, be it an AH, consignment store, trade kiosk, or anything else of the sort, will ruin the game economy unless there is a complete overhaul of the way the whole game works, requiring that items are consumed or destroyed by use, and need constant repair or replacement. And seriously that would suck on a scale you can't even begin to imagine. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

I simply don't agree that it would do either. There are checks and balances in place everywhere.

Friend, don't take this the wrong way, but we live in a world where people don't agree that the world isn't flat. Their lack of agreement doesn't change anything, much as yours does not. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

Nope, it's both. As time goes on, there are fewer sellers because existing ones sell out, but there are more buyers because new players join the game and simply cannot obtain the vaulted item without buying it.

And next time, all of the people who already owned it are going to be potential sellers. So the supply on vaulting is even greater. At some point your pyramid scheme must fail. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

I don't think prime junk has anything to do with 100p sets. Prime junk doesn't sell for much because it's unstructured. Sets are structured, which makes them much harder to complete. And the harder it is to do anything in this game, the more the valuable the result.

You would be surprised by the number of complete sets I got during a month of buying junk in bulk. That's the beauty of large numbers. Most of them were fed to Baro. Some of them I built, others were given away to people, because what's 5 plat? And some I kept, because who knows what the future might bring? 

And yes, I'm dead serious. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

No, you don't run them because this entire game is an "opportunity cost simulator". If you spend time cracking relics, you aren't spending it doing something else that either advances you further in the game or will likely yield more plat. Every mission you start carries the cost of you not doing another that you could have done, and none of us have infinite time to do everything at once.

You are really going to sit there and claim that items in vaulted state are worth a lot of plat, and then say that running the relics to get the items that are worth a lot of plat won't be a way to make a lot of plat? Seriously? 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

I disagree. We've already discussed a large contingent of the playerbase would not invest in the slots and plat to list much of anything in the AH, so they're ruled out. In addition, a lot of sellers aren't truly "new" because they're merely re-listing things that are already listed elsewhere. 

And I've already explained that a lot of people won't have a choice but to try to do it, because that's what f2p means they have to do. It's literally the only way to get the plat they need. So no they're not ruled out of anything, or they're ruled out of the game totally. And that hurts the game. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

And, again, people only ever needing one copy of an item is something we already have and always will. It's fine, because

  • There are always new players joining that need the stuff
  • Listings carry a cost everywhere, so when an item becomes cost-ineffective to list people will move on to other things to list, so listing for that item become scarce, and the scarcity will drive the price back up
  • There are always new items being fed into the game that people do need, and these are the items people will generally migrate towards prioritizing as listing because they carry the most value as everyone in the game "needs" them.

Do you typically get caught up in pyramid schemes? Do you know why they are guaranteed to fail? Don't you grasp that the ever expanding population, is your competition? Don't you realise what that means because with a larger population, you need an exponential growth rate to supply the same proportion of buyers per seller, and that's impossible to sustain? 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

 

Whatever you say mate. I have literally hundreds of rep on warframe.market from people complimenting my fair pricing, and thousands of recorded riven sales on riven.market. As I've said from the start, I like a fair trade, but for that to happen we both need to have grounded understandings of current pricing.

And I'm not sure what difference you think any of that makes. Go ahead and try picking one of your 100 p items dropping a "WTB x item" for a little less than the lowest price listed in trade chat. I get hits almost every single time I do it over here in PS4. Is PC any different? 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

You've failed to convince me that this crashes anything. A listing price buttresses any individual price from dropping too far, limited trades buttress the market from getting flooded, and the nature of how long it takes to farm high-value items buttress the system from any kind of prolonged undercutting.

Neither here nor there. I've failed to convince someone that the world is getting hotter too. And there is a wealth evidence for that, including anecdotal from my own observations with temperature readings over the past 25 years. And that guy lives on a small island developing state, the type of place most at risk for the negative effects of global warming. So really failing to convince someone who justifies selling items for prices higher than the market price, and accuses others of trying to maintain the system so that they can earn more plat, is really no big deal. 

1 minute ago, sly_squash said:

You've already admitted the current system is "inconvenient". This is not a necessary property to sustain an in-game economy. Improving the system benefits everyone involved. DE makes money off each trade. Sellers get the convenience of approving trade requests without dropping out of missions and parties. Buyers get access to an in-game marketplace that is far more resistant to scamming, faster, and much easier to use. Why stand against progress?

Yes. No. Absolutely not. They already do. That's a problem. This is true, but not worth the price you would have us all pay. Because it's a terrible idea. 

 

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39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yes, I'm absolutely saying that the trading system sucks

Excellent.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

But I am telling you in absolute terms that what you are asking for, be it an AH, consignment store, trade kiosk, or anything else of the sort, will ruin the game economy unless there is a complete overhaul of the way the whole game works, requiring that items are consumed or destroyed by use, and need constant repair or replacement. And seriously that would suck on a scale you can't even begin to imagine. 

 

And I'm disagreeing with you on that. Warframe.market didn't destroy this game's economy; if anything it salvaged it. Imagine if you needed to use trade chat for *everything*. You think it's spammed and hardly usable now, BOY OH BOY.

If you agree that the trading system is terrible, then couldn't it be argued that improving it will help the marketplace because it will improve player retention as new players who are completely reliant on the trade system to progress (vaulted items and such) wouldn't be put off by it being so horrifically bad that it's virtually a necessity to lean on 3rd party web sites like warframe.market to make it usable? If I didn't join a clan and find out about these sites, I for one would just straight up quit the game.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Friend, don't take this the wrong way, but we live in a world where people don't agree that the world isn't flat. Their lack of agreement doesn't change anything, much as yours does not. 

But you haven't explained why the checks and balances wouldn't prevent the freefall in prices. You can believe what you want, but unless you substantiate your beliefs with actual evidence or at least theory I'm not interested. You keep talking about how you intend to tank the market for a very specific item X, but I don't care because there are literally thousands of other items for me to lean on (some unique, like rivens), and the maximum amount of damage you can do --even if you're dead set on it-- is about 30 trades worth per day.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And next time, all of the people who already owned it are going to be potential sellers. So the supply on vaulting is even greater. At some point your pyramid scheme must fail. 

Again, this is precisely what we have now. Every unvaulting satiates demand for the vaulted prime, and every re-vaulting some of those sellers sell out or would-be sellers quit the game to play something else and new buyers come in. In addition, there are new primes that get vaulted, unvaulted, and revaulted that take the spotlight as being the next big ticket items. The market remains fluid and robust, AH or none.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You are really going to sit there and claim that items in vaulted state are worth a lot of plat, and then say that running the relics to get the items that are worth a lot of plat won't be a way to make a lot of plat? Seriously? 

 

Yep. Not all vaulted items are worth a lot of plat. In addition, vaulted relic running is fairly ineffective if you're running it solo as your chance of getting anything rare is abysmal, and it takes a long time to assemble a party for relics that have long been vaulted to do effective radshares that might make cracking them more worthwhile. Time that could be spent farming something else. As for relics that have only recently been vaulted, you can find parties but it hasn't been long enough since the vaulting for prices to sufficiently rise to be worth raising an eyebrow.

Relics, even vaulted ones, are *a* source of plat, but they aren't always the best one. It's up to you to choose what to invest your time in. Maybe unlocking and listing rivens will yield more plat per minute for you? Maybe you have a mod booster and it's necramech mod farming? Who knows? But because we all choose to invest our time focusing in different areas of the game, there will always be a diverse trading marketplace from which to draw the fruits of the labors that others invested in other aspects of the game.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And I'm not sure what difference you think any of that makes. Go ahead and try picking one of your 100 p items dropping a "WTB x item" for a little less than the lowest price listed in trade chat. I get hits almost every single time I do it over here in PS4. Is PC any different? 

Doing that still carries a cost-- you only get one trade chat message per 3 minutes, and it's limited in length as well as carrying other limitations. It also can only be submitted while out of mission, so extensively leveraging trade chat stipulates that you can't really engage in many longer mission types. I don't choose to use my limited trade chat messages to attempt to undercut, but if you do more power to you.

39 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So really failing to convince someone who justifies selling items for prices higher than the market price, and accuses others of trying to maintain the system so that they can earn more plat, is really no big deal. 

Judging from how many opponents you have in this thread, it sounds like you're failing to convince anyone of much of anything. And if that's case, perhaps you can consider that your proposal that improving a system that, in your words, "sucks" would be "death to the marketplace" when so many other games survive just fine with in-game auction houses (plus the marketplace has thrived under a 3rd-party auction house for years) may just be genuinely flawed. We can and should improve trading in warframe, because by your own admission it's inconvenient and terrible. Given you refuse to acknowledge the existing checks and balances and why they wouldn't be effective, why don't you detail how you would improve the system in a way that you believe is sustainable? Because I'm simply never going to believe that a trade system must be inconvenient, "sucky", and lean on 3rd party web sites in order to remain sustainable.

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1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

And I'm disagreeing with you on that.

I already told you that your agreement does not change anything. Seriously. It's inconsequential because you have repeatedly demonstrated an inability to grasp basic economic principles, and you have not shown that you are capable of thinking outside of the filter of greed. 

You also don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that change for the sake of change is not always good, or that multiple people on this thread alone have explained why the change you are asking for will make the entire system worse for everyone. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

But you haven't explained why the checks and balances wouldn't prevent the freefall in prices.

I have, repeatedly. It's because increasing convenience means increasing supply because there will be more concurrent sellers. More sellers, means more competition. More competition means lower prices. 

The only way to ensure that this does not happen is to increase the number of buyers, which cannot happen just based on the changes you lot are proposing, because that won't attract new players, or increase the number of whales. What it will do is hurt the f2p players, and believe it or not, they are actually vital to the success of the game. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Again, this is precisely what we have now. Every unvaulting satiates demand for the vaulted prime, and every re-vaulting some of those sellers sell out or would-be sellers quit the game to play something else and new buyers come in. In addition, there are new primes that get vaulted, unvaulted, and revaulted that take the spotlight as being the next big ticket items. The market remains fluid and robust, AH or none

Have you ever had a splinter in your hand and thought to yourself, "you know what would make this better, if someone came along and started hammering nails through all of my appendages"? No? What a surprise. So why do you think that exacerbating the problem we already have of slow decline, and turning it into a rapid decline, would make it better? Come on, actually think it through. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Yep. Not all vaulted items are worth a lot of plat. In addition, vaulted relic running is fairly ineffective if you're running it solo as your chance of getting anything rare is abysmal, and it takes a long time to assemble a party for relics that have long been vaulted to do effective radshares that might make cracking them more worthwhile. Time that could be spent farming something else. As for relics that have only recently been vaulted, you can find parties but it hasn't been long enough since the vaulting for prices to sufficiently rise to be worth raising an eyebrow.

I'm sure that you think that you have made a point. You really haven't. Anyone with the relics, in an active clan, can arrange 3 other players to give a pile of relics to and they can all do the radshares and profit together. I've done it to help clanmates get stuff when I didn't have extras to give away. Seriously. Glance at your relic panel, and see how many hundreds of vaulted relics are in there. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Relics, even vaulted ones, are *a* source of plat, but they aren't always the best one. It's up to you to choose what to invest your time in. Maybe unlocking and listing rivens will yield more plat per minute for you? Maybe you have a mod booster and it's necramech mod farming? Who knows? But because we all choose to invest our time focusing in different areas of the game, there will always be a diverse trading marketplace from which to draw the fruits of the labors that others invested in other aspects of the game.

Meh. I hardly sell anything. I usually just give stuff away. I'm certain I have told you this several times by now. And really, as I have explained to you already, just buying prime junk in bulk and selling the sets would be extremely lucrative for me, but I don't need the plat. You're not grasping how a 5p investment can easily turn into an abundance of profit, and the actual junk benefits me just as much because even they become Baro's offerings. But it's too much effort, so why bother? Plat profits never turn back into real world money so spending effort collecting plat I don't need is not worth it. But make it easier for me and I might just go ahead and do it. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Doing that still carries a cost-- you only get one trade chat message per 3 minutes, and it's limited in length as well as carrying other limitations. It also can only be submitted while out of mission, so extensively leveraging trade chat stipulates that you can't really engage in many longer mission types. I don't choose to use my limited trade chat messages to attempt to undercut, but if you do more power to you.

Why do you seem to think think I need more than one message most of the time? I'm telling you, people are usually eager to take an offer to buy, that is often lower than the warframe market prices. 

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

Judging from how many opponents you have in this thread, it sounds like you're failing to convince anyone of much of anything. And if that's case, perhaps you can consider that your proposal that improving a system that, in your words, "sucks" would be "death to the marketplace" when so many other games survive just fine with in-game auction houses (plus the marketplace has thrived under a 3rd-party auction house for years) may just be genuinely flawed. We can and should improve trading in warframe, because by your own admission it's inconvenient and terrible. Given you refuse to acknowledge the existing checks and balances and why they wouldn't be effective, why don't you detail how you would improve the system in a way that you believe is sustainable? Because I'm simply never going to believe that a trade system must be inconvenient, "sucky", and lean on 3rd party web sites in order to remain sustainable.

And judging from the way many people keep explaining the same things I have gone into detail about, I'd say that many of the 'opponents' don't really know what you're talking about. 

We can and should IMPROVE trading but the systems being proposed here will be detrimental, and not an improvement in any way shape or form. If you are unable to take the greed goggles off for a while, at least consider putting the self preservation ones on instead. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I already told you that your agreement does not change anything. Seriously. It's inconsequential because you have repeatedly demonstrated an inability to grasp basic economic principles, and you have not shown that you are capable of thinking outside of the filter of greed. 

There's no economic principles at play here. It's the same people, selling the same stuff, with the same restrictions on how many trades they can perform per day. It's just a different interface.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You also don't seem to be able to grasp the idea that change for the sake of change is not always good, or that multiple people on this thread alone have explained why the change you are asking for will make the entire system worse for everyone. 

It's not change for the sake of change. It's change for the sake of improvement. Remember: you admitted yourself that the current system is both inconvenient and "sucky".

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I have, repeatedly. It's because increasing convenience means increasing supply because there will be more concurrent sellers. More sellers, means more competition. More competition means lower prices. 

Again, you aren't *adding* sellers. It's largely the *same* sellers *relisting* their wares in a more convenient place to draw more eyes on their big ticket items.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I'm sure that you think that you have made a point. You really haven't. Anyone with the relics, in an active clan, can arrange 3 other players to give a pile of relics to and they can all do the radshares and profit together. I've done it to help clanmates get stuff when I didn't have extras to give away. Seriously. Glance at your relic panel, and see how many hundreds of vaulted relics are in there. 

Just straight up disagree. Just saying "hey clanmates with an Axi L1 relic let's go do a few radiant runs to farm some Loki Prime System" isn't going to magically create a full squad. If you're very lucky and in a very large alliance, you might get one, then wait a half hour to pull in someone else from recuriting chat that still has one in their inventory for whatever reason. I confirmed this personally-- I'm in a very large alliance with thousands of active players on now, and asked if anyone wanted to run that and got zero responses (lots of responses asking if they could leech off mine though!) And if you're talking about a vaulted relic that I have a ton of, then likely so does everyone else, so the prices for its offering would be low despite being vaulted. Plenty of gear is like this--you can get Chroma Prime for 60p which is cheaper than a lot of unvaulted prime warframes.

I regularly get vaulted items in prime junk trades from people who know that they're vaulted--because they're still quite worthless if the relics were hypercommon before their vaulting and/or their vaulting was relatively recent. If it's worth anything, it's from a rare vaulted relic, and if it's from a rare vaulted relic, there aren't many uncracked ones floating around, period.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Meh. I hardly sell anything. I usually just give stuff away. I'm certain I have told you this several times by now. And really, as I have explained to you already, just buying prime junk in bulk and selling the sets would be extremely lucrative for me, but I don't need the plat.

I wouldn't call that "extremely lucrative", but it's one way to make some plat, I suppose. The problem for me is, as I like fair trades, I would short-circuit any attempt for a trader to give me any item of significant worth in a prime junk sale. There are many other, better ways to make platinum, and because of this the market would remain robust even in the wake of the terror of being made "less sucky" and "more convenient".

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Why do you seem to think think I need more than one message most of the time? I'm telling you, people are usually eager to take an offer to buy, that is often lower than the warframe market prices. 

Right, because they can resell the item at a higher cost. And the item *will* sell at that higher cost, despite you trying your best to pull the overall price down using your occasional trade message to lowball. You're trading a fast sale for a higher value sale. That's the balance.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And judging from the way many people keep explaining the same things I have gone into detail about, I'd say that many of the 'opponents' don't really know what you're talking about. 

Sounds like hubris to me. Your only actual reservation against the change seems to be an insistence that the market will crash, yet there are so many controls, checks, and balances in place (and there's always room for more ideas to be able to improve the system while simultaneously sustaining the market) that your case simply doesn't hold water. There is a  way to do this without crashing the market. Maybe it involves increasing costs for each new listed item. Maybe it involves cooldowns. Maybe it involves bidding. But there's obviously a way to make it work here, because similar games implement auction houses side-by-side with thriving economies all the time. And a game as reliant as Warframe is on trading to make progression deserves better.

1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

We can and should IMPROVE trading but the systems being proposed here will be detrimental, and not an improvement in any way shape or form. If you are unable to take the greed goggles off for a while, at least consider putting the self preservation ones on instead. 

Greed goggles? I already said I would be trading platinum for listing convenience and overall enhanced enjoyment of the game (since I'd actually be able to *play it* instead of stand around next to a trade kiosk for far more time than anyone ever should have to).

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