Nithwave block

[sly_squash]

8 hours ago, imaduyan said:

I buy nitain, 3-4 potatos and weapon for upgrade my rank (not all), 3-4 mod aura, that all.

I didn't know there was max rank it's 60.

All week you have NW objectif for token why cap it?

Agreed that there shouldn't be a prestige cap, but FYI it is never cost-effective to use NW credits to buy potatoes.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

gotta love this: whole bunch of whiners appear every nightwave to say how boring it is and they won't do it, and you get this madlad hitting Prestige rank 60 and asking for more..

I just want the damn Glassmaker to fight me already. the sooner I shatter his  creepy Orokin a$$, the sooner I get his cool Sword and won't have to see more glass bois interrupting every fight.

[Taiepii]

17 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

Hence why I asked him preciselly what he spended it on, so that I could give him advice.

This system is very clearly absolutely not made for anyone to get everything in one season. You aknowledge that he's a new player, yet you speak as if he was a completionist vet... it is all but fair that we can't get everything right away, otherwise all incentive to spend plat for those NW items would be gone, it's DE trying to sustain themselves, not being mean for the sake of it.

.........

The thing is, he didn't get everything easily, he did farm for it.

To get to rank 60 you have to finish most mission that  showed up from first day till today. So he didn't get "everything right away", this is totally false argument.
Plus their is a "legit" limit to the farm,  which is the weekly mission. Once you finish them you wait for the next week. So far, no problem to the system.
So why add an extra limiter ?

Now problem is, the NW lasted for way too long already. So however we might agree or not. This player statement will become more and more important over the time.
Today we can debate about this problem as the impact still low but in a month more player will start to complain about this problem, in over 3 month that will be a real problem to the game progression and serious number of complain will show up.
 

[Taiepii]

5 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

gotta love this: whole bunch of whiners appear every nightwave to say how boring it is and they won't do it, and you get this madlad hitting Prestige rank 60 and asking for more..

I just want the damn Glassmaker to fight me already. the sooner I shatter his  creepy Orokin a$$, the sooner I get his cool Sword and won't have to see more glass bois interrupting every fight.

So right, I bloody hate those glass boy, I just want them to get away xD

[Fallen77]

Il y a 3 heures, Taiepii a dit :

The thing is, he didn't get everything easily, he did farm for it.

To get to rank 60 you have to finish most mission that  showed up from first day till today. So he didn't get "everything right away", this is totally false argument.
Plus their is a "legit" limit to the farm,  which is the weekly mission. Once you finish them you wait for the next week. So far, no problem to the system.
So why add an extra limiter ?

Now problem is, the NW lasted for way too long already. So however we might agree or not. This player statement will become more and more important over the time.
Today we can debate about this problem as the impact still low but in a month more player will start to complain about this problem, in over 3 month that will be a real problem to the game progression and serious number of complain will show up.
 

You are completely missing the point, I hope not on purpose.

"Getting everything right away" hints at "being able to obtain all the items in a single season without having to make choices for what you are getting". It's not a matter of speed, which for the record, still takes way less time and pays way more than old alerts.

He had to invest some time in playing the game to unlock in-game rewards, what a brain-shattering concept I know. This criteria is meaningless.

The other thing you are, I hope not on purpose, is that most of those items are big road-blockers for new players and thus are a reliable source of income for DE. As a new player, getting your first potatoes is huge, they're already giving a bunch away, but still put a limit pretty far in this system so that said new players would still be incentivised to either pay up a small amount of plat or be patient with what they already have at some point.

As a free to player for a long time at the start, back in the day where potatoes and stuff were much harder to come by, it already felt like a pretty sensible limit : either be patient and grind for free to eventually get everything, or if you absolutly need to obtain EVERY items in the game, well pay up a bit. But even with the much higher amount of those items obtainable for free, people still manage to complain that there's not enough. Why is it so hard to just say "well I got to the end of it for this season, let's find out what else I can do outside of NW" ?

But don't worry, you can be sure that there are gonna more complaints from lazy and impatient people. And you can be sure DE'll add 30 more ranks, because they always cave in to complaints from lazy and impatient people.

 

 

[imaduyan]

I just want play.

the old players always spit on the new players.

Thanks

[Noobasique]

10 часов назад, (PS4)robotwars7 сказал:

and won't have to see more glass bois interrupting every fight.

Best part of Nightwave actually, I'll miss them a lot when they're gone. Immortal constant Mallet damage ramp...

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

3 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

You are completely missing the point, I hope not on purpose.

I think you are the one who's missing the point.

The basic formula of Nightwave is very simple: you do the NW tasks => you get rewards. We could discuss the quality of the rewards or the difficulty of the tasks, but that's less relevant and more subjective. What this prestige level limit does is break that formula: the tasks are still there, but the rewards disappear.

And this did not happen because people hard-core farmed glassed mobs: I simply did all the daily/weekly tasks (except a few extra annoying dailies) and played the game normally - and I am now at prestige rank 59 (will be 60 after today's forma blueprint farm)

You could, of course, say "don't do the tasks" - but that seems to be the wrong way of resolving the issue. And they do pop up in the UI all the time, making leaving them incomplete a bit annoying. The possible correct ways of resolving the issue are (as far as I can see):

1. Make Nightwave seasons shorter
2. Make prestige ranks go higher

And this is not about potatoes/Nitain/aura mods. While I could always use more Nitain (I like to put aura formas on frames I use a lot), I have enough of it to make do. The issue is that (in my opinion) gameplay/grind needs to be rewarding. And by restricting prestige ranks like this DE is leaving us with the grind while removing the rewards.

[Yamazuki]

Nightwave's main issue is the absurd length each season ends up being. They should have been a max of 3 months, instead of ~6 months or longer that we've been experiencing for this one and the previous intermission.

[vegetosayajin]

18 hours ago, imaduyan said:

The game is F2P not pay to win

idd and I didn't pay for it, everything I got I have from trading

also
 

 

On 2020-09-14 at 10:35 AM, imaduyan said:

 I can no longer earn tokens to buy the many mods, weapons and nitain extracts.

I was a new player when the first nightwave was announced and then there was no prestige 60 rank. This is complete bs, sorry.
I had more then enough to buy every mod that I wanted, 2-3 catalyst and 40-50 nintain with way less creds.

[Fallen77]

il y a 16 minutes, (NSW)BalticBarbarian a dit :

I think you are the one who's missing the point.

The basic formula of Nightwave is very simple: you do the NW tasks => you get rewards. We could discuss the quality of the rewards or the difficulty of the tasks, but that's less relevant and more subjective. What this prestige level limit does is break that formula: the tasks are still there, but the rewards disappear.

And this did not happen because people hard-core farmed glassed mobs: I simply did all the daily/weekly tasks (except a few extra annoying dailies) and played the game normally - and I am now at prestige rank 59 (will be 60 after today's forma blueprint farm)

You could, of course, say "don't do the tasks" - but that seems to be the wrong way of resolving the issue. And they do pop up in the UI all the time, making leaving them incomplete a bit annoying. The possible correct ways of resolving the issue are (as far as I can see):

1. Make Nightwave seasons shorter
2. Make prestige ranks go higher

And this is not about potatoes/Nitain/aura mods. While I could always use more Nitain (I like to put aura formas on frames I use a lot), I have enough of it to make do. The issue is that (in my opinion) gameplay/grind needs to be rewarding. And by restricting prestige ranks like this DE is leaving us with the grind while removing the rewards.

My point, as it has been from the start, is that NW seasons have a limit so that people are still incentivised to pay up for potatoes and stuff once they got 1000+ creds. Nothing more. 

DE still needs to make money, and that kind of VERY SOFT limitation is part of the things that helps them keep upfloat.

If I talked about anything else, it's because people brought those other things up, often trying to sidestep my point, to which I answered.

I'm not saying "don't do tasks", I am saying "accept that there is such a thing as an end to the rain of free items that are nightwave seasons". No one complained like this before NW, when such items were WAY less common to come by, but now that it has become much easier, people keep asking for more free stuff like spoiled kids without realising where we're coming from nor why this system works this way. 

Also, when the rewards are potato/nitain/aura/etc, you can't simply say that the discussion is not about those things then, in the same sentence, ask for more rewards...

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

16 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

so that people are still incentivised to pay up for potatoes and stuff once they got 1000+ creds

I have very little sympathy for people who dumped all their NW creds on potatoes and now can't afford anything else because of it. As far as I'm concerned, they can remove potatoes from the NW shop completely.

The problem, however, is that the NW shop contains other items that cannot be obtained in any other way. Namely, aura mods and Nitain (pretty sure some weapon skins are also exclusive). I would have much less of a problem with it if I could buy these items for plat - but currently, they are NW exclusive. And don't even get me started on Umbra forma!

23 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

people keep asking for more free stuff

I don't know what "people" are asking for, but I am asking to be able to get essential mods and resources without waiting for months or years. While I would prefer to earn them through gameplay, I am prepared to pay for them if there is no other option (as long as the price is not completely ridiculous).

The main point still stands: if you have a system where you are incentivised to perform certain tasks to get (somewhat stable) rewards, the rewards should not just suddenly dry up: either the seasons need to be shorter or the prestige ranks need to go higher.

54 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

No one complained like this before NW,

And don't start with the "In the old days..." stuff. The fact that the system used to be even worse does not excuse the glaring issues the current iteration has.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 4 heures, imaduyan a dit :

I just want play.

the old players always spit on the new players.

Thanks

You have hundreds upon hundreds of hours of playtime worth of things to do as a new player, go at it.

You spit in the face of people trying to give you advice, well stay in your little frustrated world buddy, hope you're having fun down there.

You're welcome.

[Kefirno]

Nighwave potatoes are overpriced. You can get more potatoes just by getting popular auras from cred shop and selling them for plat a couple weeks later. Get your essentials via trading for the time being,

Anyway, rank cap is indeed stupid and only exists because DE overestimated their ability to crank out new seasons regularly. They are perfectly aware that seasons and intermissions outstay their welcome but still get more and more ambitious with a system that should've been just a simple replacement for alerts.

52 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

DE still needs to make money, and that kind of VERY SOFT limitation is part of the things that helps them keep upfloat.

So sad, starving indie dev has to lock some MR5 player out of one potato a week because they couldn't pay thier bills! Smash like if u cried!! 😿😿😿

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

1 minute ago, Kefirno said:

starving indie dev has to lock some MR5 player out of one potato a week because they couldn't pay thier bills!

The "DE needs to make their money too" argument is actually valid. While 1 player buying 1 potato per week isn't much, multiplying this by the number of players Warframe has makes it a good stable income that does help keep the lights on. Same with Forma.

Where his argument fails is including the items that cannot be bought for plat in the same category of rewards.

[Fallen77]

il y a 2 minutes, (NSW)BalticBarbarian a dit :

I have very little sympathy for people who dumped all their NW creds on potatoes and now can't afford anything else because of it. As far as I'm concerned, they can remove potatoes from the NW shop completely.

The problem, however, is that the NW shop contains other items that cannot be obtained in any other way. Namely, aura mods and Nitain (pretty sure some weapon skins are also exclusive). I would have much less of a problem with it if I could buy these items for plat - but currently, they are NW exclusive. And don't even get me started on Umbra forma!

I don't know what "people" are asking for, but I am asking to be able to get essential mods and resources without waiting for months or years. While I would prefer to earn them through gameplay, I am prepared to pay for them if there is no other option (as long as the price is not completely ridiculous).

The main point still stands: if you have a system where you are incentivised to perform certain tasks to get (somewhat stable) rewards, the rewards should not just suddenly dry up: either the seasons need to be shorter or the prestige ranks need to go higher.

And don't start with the "In the old days..." stuff. The fact that the system used to be even worse does not excuse the glaring issues the current iteration has.

Sorry for not cuting your post into parts, annoying to do on phone.

1st part : if you're not buying any potato, then you have way enough to get everything and more in one season. But if it's that way, which pours into my previous point, is that you have to make a choice between getting plat generating potatoes and other progression based items, it's part of the incentive to spend plat on potatoes. Maybe that's no concern to you, but for those that are either new or don't like trading or don't want to dump too much money on the game, potatoes are a big deal.

Umbra forma : those need IMHO to stay as rare as they are. If DE was to make it easier to get those, it would slowly become the new meta, which would add nothing in the end but more people complaining about "oh so much grind" on the forum. But this one is sorta disconnected from the point, not insisting super hard on it, whatever you want.

 

2nd part : you are asking for mods and stuff. Being rank 59 and not caring about potatoes as you said, you should already have everything in the shop that is not a potato, congrats. What are you complaining about again ?

"The main point still stands" now you're just repeating yourself without even aknowledging the counterpoint I already made. I won't repeat myself, just suggest to read what I already said. If you have nothing to add and don't try to argue my point, I'm afraid we can only agree to disagree on this.

"In the old days" part : oh yes I will, because you are completely willingly ignoring the value of those items, which was much better integrated by the community as a whole before, due to how things were. 

[Fallen77]

il y a 20 minutes, Kefirno a dit :

 

So sad, starving indie dev has to lock some MR5 player out of one potato a week because they couldn't pay thier bills! Smash like if u cried!! 😿😿😿

I could make a constructed answer, but such pathetic oversimplication only deserves a "Go get a job and learn the value of work kid. You tell me how you run a business without making any profit"

[Fallen77]

il y a 15 minutes, (NSW)BalticBarbarian a dit :

Where his argument fails is including the items that cannot be bought for plat in the same category of rewards.

For absolute emphasis because no I am totally right on this very point.

The fact that you cannot buy some of those items is PRECISELY part of the money making system. Since you can't outright buy nitain or whatever with plat, you are incentivised to prioritize those with your credits, thus in terms pushing you to spend plat for potatoes (mainly).

Feel like I didn't develop this point enough in my previous answer

[Kefirno]

3 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

I could make a constructed answer,

No you couldn't lol.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

4 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

then you have way enough to get everything and more in one season

NItain, Nitain and more Nitain! Nitain is required to build frames, weapons, cosmetics and aura forma. Since it is also not available on a reliable basis, you also need to make sure you have a stockpile in case a new weapon/frame comes out between seasons.

8 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

If DE was to make it easier to get those, it would slowly become the new meta

Umbral mods already ARE in the meta. The only thing making umbral forma inaccessible achieves is that to fit two Umbral mods on a frame/weapon you need to forma the other 6 or 7 mod slots, ultimately reducing build diversity. I would much rather put 1 Umbral forma on the same weapon, leaving more slots unpolarized and allowing me to play around with other builds. But I would agree that this belongs in a different conversation.

of them

15 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

without even aknowledging the counterpoint I already made

The counterpoints I noticed in your post were

• "...it used to be even worse..." - which I addressed
• "...accept the limitation..." - my entire post is about saying that this specific limitation is wrong and needs to be removed
• "...developers want money too..." - As I said, I would have much less of a problem with these limitations if I could pay plat to get the same resources

Did I miss some other counterpoint you were making?

[Kefirno]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

The "DE needs to make their money too" argument is actually valid. While 1 player buying 1 potato per week isn't much, multiplying this by the number of players Warframe has makes it a good stable income that does help keep the lights on. Same with Forma.

You can't just assume that DE lose money from every free potato or forma they give away. There are players who potato and forma only the most essential stuff despite having a surplus and then there are players who have 100 copies of same frame with 100 formas in each. There are players who are mindful of every nightwave credit spent and there are players who only buy kuva for 1000000th roll on their favorite riven. There are players who won't spend a cent on a game no matter what and there are players who dump all their spare cash into Warframe.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

17 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

The fact that you cannot buy some of those items is PRECISELY part of the money making system. Since you can't outright buy nitain or whatever with plat, you are incentivised to prioritize those with your credits, thus in terms pushing you to spend plat for potatoes (mainly).

"we want more of your money so we won't let you give us your money". If that were truly the logic, just remove the potatoes from the shop. If you want new players to still be getting potatoes from NW - give one every 10 ranks instead of the NW cred (alternating blue/gold).

It looks to me like you're trying too hard to justify something that is simply a game design flaw. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that Warframe has issues. Talking about them is how they eventually get fixed (or so I hope).

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

3 minutes ago, Kefirno said:

here are players who potato and forma only the most essential stuff despite having a surplus and then there are players who have 100 copies of same frame with 100 formas in each.

Absolutely. But both of these groups of people are outliers. When talking about the playerbase at large you want to be thinking about the abstract "average player". And they are much closer to the "a potato a week" model I described.

[(PSN)Wolf_Folivora]

Wow, you deserve an umbra forma my man. Also... you done good, but you should get some sleep now.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

On 2020-09-14 at 5:16 AM, Fallen77 said:

it's extremely dishonest to defend old alerts this way. I have been a new player during this system for a while, and when you can't camp in front of your computer for 4 hours at a time (like anyone with a job), it is so very unreliable

DE could have simply extended alery durations, literally just changing a number in a file.

They could have made nitain alerts last 6 hours so no matter when yoi got on, there would be one waiting.

They could have made catalysts and reactors 24 hours at base, same with cosmetics and Auras.

Instead they ditched the system and made everything weighted against everything. No longer can you reliably get nitain, if you buy with creds you are locked out of cosmetics, unique mods, the potatoes.

At the time people were PLEADING with DE to not outright remove alerts, just to fix their issues. It fell on deaf ears.

Alerts never capped, you never had to worry about if you did one alert would you not be allowed to do another.

You never had to wonder what you couls get for free and what you would be forced to spend plat on.

NW is a prettied up slap in the face. Hearlded constantly ingame by more transmissions to clutter up the UI.

There is no legitimate reason DE cannot keep nightwave and bring back alerts.