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Lets summarize quickly: simplicity & complexity, Power fantasy, Stamina


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Simplicity


What is?

What is simplicity? In a few words, it refers to different types of content which do not have much depth, that is: they are characterized by having few elements, this makes simplicity something easy to understand and repetitive, which has its good uses BUT it also has its bad uses, which is what I am going to summarize for you.

How to use:

In games, simplicity should only be rooted with the HUD / UI, signage, tutorials, controls and other things that are informative for the players, because simplicity is only made to be used in informational fields and nothing else.

How NOT to use:

the problem arrive when games use simplicity in the field of mechanics, that is: “the systems that make the game entreteining”, simplicity cannot be used in the creation of missions, combat, movement, maps, customization, damage, or absolutely nothing intended to entertain players, simplicity is not made to entertain players due to its repetitive nature.

 

Complexity:


What is it?

It refers to different types of content that are equally deep, that is: they are characterized by having many elements, this makes complexity difficult to understand and something that is not repetitive, which has its good uses but it also has its bad uses.

How to use:

In games the complexity is made to be complemented by all mechanics and systems whose purpose is to entertain the players, such as: combat, customization missions, maps, movement, damage, etc. since the nature of complexity is to avoid repetitiveness and make the game more challenging.

How NOT to use:

Complexity is not made for informational environments, it cannot be used in the creation of HUD / UI, signage, tutorials, controls and other things whose purpose is to inform the player since the nature of complexity makes it difficult to understand.

Edited by (PS4)StationOfDead
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What is?

Power fantasy is a term that is used for games whose balance and combat are always defective, that is: in the game the players are always superior to the NPCs individually or in crowd, these games usually always use hordes of enemies as the only one form of challenge, but IRONICALLY, and indirectly the game will show you that it is not necessary to play because you will always win in combat.

NEVER USE:

It is not necessary much explanation, the Power fantasy damage the balance of the game by nature and should be avoided, the enemies and their interactions are made to make life impossible for the players, not to make it easier for them, when you create enemies you have to make sure that These have quality: the enemies individually are a complex challenge, variety: all the enemies in a mission are different from the others and quantity: several enemies appear in the mission (without hordes), the Power fantasy only know the quantity (in the form of hordes) but not the quality or variety, this causes the game to be simple and eventually becomes boring.

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What is?

Stamina is known as a movement system mechanic whose purpose is to control the animations of the players and NPCs, that is: Stamina is the body energy of the individuals in the game, it is affected by all the Animations made by the player such as: parkour, reloading a weapon, attacking, blocking, taking damage, taking no damage, a high Stamina would translate to fluid movements and resistance to CC and a low Stamina translates as slower movements and vulnerability to CC , the amount of Stamina will always depend on the individual as well as the recovery of it.

ALWAYS USE:

Stamina is very important in games like the health bar, it makes the game more complex and strategic which eventually makes the game more entertaining and challenging for players, in WF Stamina was poorly implemented ( like many other things ...) with very shallow depth, this only affected parkour and only the players which is wrong, the stamina must be located in every individual in the game controlling each movement they make.

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Complexity does not Equal Depth. 

20 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Stamina is very important in games like the health bar, it makes the game more complex and strategic which eventually makes the game more entertaining and challenging for players, in WF Stamina was poorly implemented ( like many other things ...) with very shallow depth, this only affected parkour and only the players which is wrong, the stamina must be located in every individual in the game controlling each movement they make.

You must be one of those People who thinks the Dark Souls series has good Combat. 🤔

 

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17 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

What is?

Stamina is known as a movement system mechanic whose purpose is to control the animations of the players and NPCs, that is: Stamina is the body energy of the individuals in the game, it is affected by all the Animations made by the player such as: parkour, reloading a weapon, attacking, blocking, taking damage, taking no damage, a high Stamina would translate to fluid movements and resistance to CC and a low Stamina translates as slower movements and vulnerability to CC , the amount of Stamina will always depend on the individual as well as the recovery of it.

ALWAYS USE:

Stamina is very important in games like the health bar, it makes the game more complex and strategic which eventually makes the game more entertaining and challenging for players, in WF Stamina was poorly implemented ( like many other things ...) with very shallow depth, this only affected parkour and only the players which is wrong, the stamina must be located in every individual in the game controlling each movement they make.

I honestly have no idea what the point of the 3 posts are.

Stamina was an old system thats not coming back thankfully as it wouldn't fit Warframes combat like it does Dark Souls or Nioh. Power Fantasy is literally just a made-up term that you summarized for some reason. And im sure the Devs know the definition of Simplicity and Complexity from School.

To be honest it might be a good idea to clarify what the point of the posts are asap. The whole thing could easily be taken as condescension without clarification.

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hace 16 horas, Lutesque dijo:

Complexity does not Equal Depth

Or maybe you don't know that Depth and complexity are two terms that are used to define the same thing, I suppose that your definition of Depth is all non-linear content which has different variables which lead to other variables, or am I wrong? both complexity and depth are composed of many elements which lead to different interactions, they are not linear and are difficult to understand, so as not to lengthen it so much: depth and complexity alike avoid repetitiveness in games by locking players in a Endless interactions maze.

 

hace 16 horas, Lutesque dijo:

You must be one of those People who thinks the Dark Souls series has good Combat.

NO, stamina is an important part but alone it is not enough to make a good combat system

 

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hace 17 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

Stamina was an old system thats not coming back thankfully as it wouldn't fit Warframes combat like it does Dark Souls or Nioh.

Are you the typical player who doesn't want the game to be difficult / challenging and then complains about why the game is so easy? Whether you like it or not, Stamina is a good mechanic that makes the game more dynamic, and I don't think is necessary to mention that the current gameplay of WF have many problems.

 

hace 17 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

And im sure the Devs know the definition of Simplicity and Complexity from School.

To be honest it might be a good idea to clarify what the point of the posts are asap.


Well, guess what?, THEY ARE NOT DEMONSTRATING IT, also I made those topics for other users to understand those terms, there are so many people in the forum that talk about Endgame without know about it, and others that doesnt know that Power fantasy gameplay is a bad design, etc.

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  • (PS4)StationOfDead changed the title to Lets summarize quickly: simplicity & complexity, Power fantasy, Stamina
3 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Are you the typical player who doesn't want the game to be difficult / challenging and then complains about why the game is so easy?

Nope, i'm the gamer who knew that Warframe already had a Stamina system at 1 point that didn't fit its combat. You're asking for something that already existed. It was tried, tested, failed and hated. I'm guessing you were unaware it was already in the game as i cannot imagine anyone who saw it asking for its return.

Adding Stamina back into Warframe would be like adding 50x the amount of Villagers into Bloodborne. It doesn't work. Games that give us a Stamina Limit do so because they're built around a specific combat model; Less Enemies but hard hitting. Warframe is literally based on the opposite model; Swarms of Enemies who chip at Health. Sorry but it just doesn't work.

As for "explaining terms to people" i'm not buying it tbh. Either you're saying that the Devs don't know simple words like Stamina, Simplicity and Complexity, or its actually worse and you're saying Forum Members don't. Its 1 or the other with no third option here. Talking down to people is not a great way to be heard. Perhaps that wasn't intended, I always give people the benefit of the doubt when i can, but if it wasn't intentional you need to read over posts before submitting them.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

NO, stamina is an important part but alone it is not enough to make a good combat system

I think Stamina does more harm than good.... It's only purpose is to make you wait. I don't know how we got to a point where games are getting Praised for removing 90% of your Functionality while you wait for a Meter to fill up... 

 

That's why I thought Sekiro was the first and only Game From Software made where the combat was actually good (outside of things like Demon of Hatred and The Giant Ape).

5 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Or maybe you don't know that Depth and complexity are two terms that are used to define the same thing

Yes... People do that these days... My point Is that there actually are not the same thing....

For a game to be deep it is going to have to have its complexity increased.... But what many Gamers and Developers over look is that just Tossing in a bunch of Rules and Mechanics on top of each other makes your Game Convoluted.... Not Deep...

A convoluted game is one thats difficult to understand but boils down to a select few good options among a see of terrible options once it's been figured out....

Which describes Warframe perfectly.

5 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

I suppose that your definition of Depth is all non-linear content which has different variables which lead to other variables, or am I wrong?

My Definition of Depth is a games ability to provide a wide array of meaningfull options from a simple set of Elements.

5 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

both complexity and depth are composed of many elements which lead to different interactions, they are not linear and are difficult to understand, so as not to lengthen it so much: depth and complexity alike avoid repetitiveness in games by locking players in a Endless interactions maze.

Maybe you should lengthen it because I didn't understand this part.

4 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Are you the typical player who doesn't want the game to be difficult / challenging and then complains about why the game is so easy? Whether you like it or not, Stamina is a good mechanic that makes the game more dynamic, and I don't think is necessary to mention that the current gameplay of WF have many problems.

I don't think you are going to fix those Problems by making players stare at a Meter before they are allowed to Bullet Jump or Reload their Weapons...

1 hour ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

Adding Stamina back into Warframe would be like adding 50x the amount of Villagers into Bloodborne. It doesn't work. Games that give us a Stamina Limit do so because they're built around a specific combat model; Less Enemies but hard hitting.

Nioh doesn't even bother with this... It tosses you into many Combat Scenarios with Multiple Hard Hitting Enemies despite its Stamina system....

Well to be fair... It only does that after you complete the game....

 

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On 2020-09-14 at 7:11 AM, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

What is?

Power fantasy is a term that is used for games whose balance and combat are always defective, that is: in the game the players are always superior to the NPCs individually or in crowd, these games usually always use hordes of enemies as the only one form of challenge, but IRONICALLY, and indirectly the game will show you that it is not necessary to play because you will always win in combat.

NEVER USE:

It is not necessary much explanation, the Power fantasy damage the balance of the game by nature and should be avoided, the enemies and their interactions are made to make life impossible for the players, not to make it easier for them, when you create enemies you have to make sure that These have quality: the enemies individually are a complex challenge, variety: all the enemies in a mission are different from the others and quantity: several enemies appear in the mission (without hordes), the Power fantasy only know the quantity (in the form of hordes) but not the quality or variety, this causes the game to be simple and eventually becomes boring.

This is not necessarily the case, because balance isn't limited to only the player and enemies, nor is "power fantasy" necessarily used in a universal context.

Consider, for example, defence-styled missions. The player can be powerful beyond belief, able to take out hordes of enemies. That would, in this case, count as a power fantasy. That doesn't help if the player can only be in one location yet has to manage four different defensible points. (That is: the ability to kill everything does not automatically entail the ability to complete a mission)

Another example is many of the Kirby games, of all things. Take the Epic Yarn entry, for example. Players don't even have healthbars. There is no real way for the player to lose and they're able to wreck through absolutely everything. And yet there's a challenge to get high rankings by not taking damage.

Other games, like Dynasty Warriors or even Dead Rising, can fit the "power fantasy" bill most of the time by enabling the player to cut through armies at a whim, but throws in occasional heavy and boss units that serve as metaphorical speed bumps. (And if it requires always being stronger than the enemy, even bosses, then Warframe doesn't fit the bill either)

On 2020-09-14 at 7:12 AM, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Stamina is very important in games like the health bar [snip]

It's important to ensure you're talking about stamina and not a mana resource. Many, many games make use of a kind of mana resource for spellcasting or other abilities. Sometimes this takes the name of "stamina". But very often - barring Elder Scrolls and Soulsborne, because I can't think of any beyond that - the secondary resource is singular. There's a mana system or a stamina system, but seldom both. So unless you're meaning to argue a retooling of the energy system into a more stamina-esque system, this assertion that games should always use stamina is, simply, not the case.

All that said:

1. Yes, I agree well enough with the first post about simplicity and complexity.

2. This thread does not successfully argue for stamina at all. The idea seems to be, generally speaking, that player mobility makes players too powerful and the game too easy. First, the source of power fantasy comes primarily from player damage output. Mobility is secondary at best. Second, there are various solutions, ranging from enemies that CC (see Eximus Arson units) to enemy setups that ask for more judicious parkour usage. If the player-enemy relationship is in a problem state, either end can be tweaked. And considering one sub-goal is to introduce more effective complexity, it'd likely be better to address things from the enemy end, where quite a lot of things are "bland".

3. On the whole "depth vs complexity" issue: depth is effective complexity. You can make any game system more complicated, but the important bit is whether that complexity adds something substantial. You can make bullet jumping more complex by requiring the player double-tap forward, then slide, aim down sights, and press the jump button. It's a more complicated procedure, but only really adds carpal tunnel syndrome.

(Another example is the old melee combo system, where inputs were much more varied. More complicated, sure, but in many cases, people just ignored those difficult-to-execute combos since the easier ones did a similarly good job.)

Edited by Tyreaus
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Some of the more complicated inputs also tended to work counter to what Warframe actually rewards. A good example is directional inputs that aren't forward. The other main case was holds and delays that would become more inconvenient when stacking attack speed (and since not stacking attack speed is kind of a non-starter...).

 

And yea, Warframe had stamina. And it sucked. Good riddance.

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hace 14 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

Nope, i'm the gamer who knew that Warframe already had a Stamina system at 1 point that didn't fit its combat. You're asking for something that already existed. It was tried, tested, failed and hated. I'm guessing you were unaware it was already in the game as i cannot imagine anyone who saw it asking for its return.

Let me guess, are you upset because Stamina restricts player movement? Well, let me tell you that Stamina should NOT restrict player movement, as I mentioned before: Stamina was poorly implemented, another good concept wasted by DE, Stamina was unfairly eliminated as if it did not have any type of majority potential, Stamina needed a REWORK, do you think it is okay to remove a good concept when you implement it wrong? NO, look at the conclave, another good modality good taken by other games and then DE that implement it badly and then has the impudence to abandon it, and another fact: the combats are not made to be like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejSGAA6jOfM , https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qwxycRQzcis&t=112s that is garbage that cannot even be considered combat, the combats are not made to be fast paced, the combats are made to be a complicated challenge for the players, so that the players are careful and think 4 times before making any moves and the Stamina helps with that, and don't mistake the pace of combat with the pace of movement.

hace 14 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

Warframe is literally based on the opposite model; Swarms of Enemies who chip at Health. Sorry but it just doesn't work.

And guess what?, that's another of the big problems of the game, 30 super complex enemies divided and not equal between them on the map would be better than a horde of 30 simple enemies, the enemies must have quality, variety and quantity, and the hordes are a problem because only know the quantity (several enemies in the mission) but not the quality (because they are simple) or the variety (because all the enemies are equal in type).

 

hace 14 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

As for "explaining terms to people" i'm not buying it tbh. Either you're saying that the Devs don't know simple words like Stamina, Simplicity and Complexity, or its actually worse and you're saying Forum Members don't. Its 1 or the other with no third option here. Talking down to people is not a great way to be heard. Perhaps that wasn't intended, I always give people the benefit of the doubt when i can, but if it wasn't intentional you need to read over posts before submitting them.

Tell me, how many people are there in the forums who talk about CHALLENGE without having knowledge of it? How many people judge the game without knowing how to judge a game? The challenge comes from complexity, and to judge a game you must evaluate all the systems that compose it, things that many players do not know or do not demonstrate and the same goes to devs, there are many people who do Feedback without knowing that Feedback should benefit the players, the game and the developers, tell me, is it good that they do not know about those things? , no, right?, then why do you complain that I educate them with terms that they dont demostrate to know so that they try to give better feedback and better content?

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Let me guess, are you upset because Stamina restricts player movement?

I think the problem with Stamina is that it just Restricts....

What it is restricts is less important than the fact that it's just preventing you from doing whatever that thing is.... 

That's why I think Stamina is just universally a bad concept.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

so that the players are careful and think 4 times before making any moves and the Stamina helps with that, and don't mistake the pace of combat with the pace of movement.

I've heard multiple variations of this Statement alot of times...

I'm assuming the idea here is people don't think about Something if they have infinite Access to it and by using Stamina to limit its usage they give those players pause to think about when they should or should not be using said thing.

It makes perfect sense in Theory but in practice that's not how it winds up playing out. 

From what I've seen people give themselves an "Action Budget" based on the amount of Stamina they have... And they don't give the system or their Actions any more consideration beyond that point. If the Stamina only permits X Amount of Offensive Actions and X Amounts of Defensive Actions..... Then players will just perform as many Offensive Actions as the Stamina Allows and leaving behind just enough Stamina to perform one defensive Action....

This hardly qualifies as making players think so much as it is just making Players wait before they can act again.

Just because the System Prevents players from Acting does not Automatically mean they are Thinking. Because Let's be honest...there's nothing to think about.... If there was then you wouldn't have to implement a Stamina Bar in the first place.

 

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hace 13 horas, Lutesque dijo:

think Stamina does more harm than good.... It's only purpose is to make you wait. I don't know how we got to a point where games are getting Praised for removing 90% of your Functionality while you wait for a Meter to fill up... 

 

hace 13 horas, Lutesque dijo:

don't think you are going to fix those Problems by making players stare at a Meter before they are allowed to Bullet Jump or Reload their Weapons...

hace 15 horas, (PS4)MYKK678 dijo:

Stamina is not made to restrict the movement of players, BUT devs dont know that, stamina is like the body energy of an individual or thing, for example: a giant rock is more difficult to move than a small stone, while the rock needs several pushes to move the stone only a few pushes to unbalance it, in a few words, stamina is the level that determines how many blows an individual needs to take to be unbalanced, stamina is also affected by all the movements that the individual makes, each time you move, you lose balance (being static is not the same as running).

 

hace 14 horas, Lutesque dijo:

For a game to be deep it is going to have to have its complexity increased.... But what many Gamers and Developers over look is that just Tossing in a bunch of Rules and Mechanics on top of each other makes your Game Convoluted.... Not Deep...

 

You are wrong, creating complex mechanics in a game makes the gameplay deeper, for example: the movement system in WF has mechanics based on Parkour which gives players the option to interact with structures (walls, etc. .), while in other games you can't even climb a wall (fortnite for example) because its movement system is not complex.

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Simplicity v/s Complexity:

It has taken me many years (more than I care to admit) to accept the reality here that complexity is not always better. I am using it within your context and explanation. I used to agree with you, and a part of me still longs for it. But more complex, within the context of video games at least, does not automatically equal better. And then of course there is the definition of 'better'.

Better is your opinion. Partly mine too. But that does not automatically mean that in a universal setting More Complexity is better for a game. 

Also, I would disagree with Complexity removing repetitiveness. It simply delays it or in the good cases, it masks the repetition well. 

Power Fantasy:

"never use"? really? Yes, delivering on the power fantasy makes it more challenging to maintain a balanced game, but that is at the core of the appeal in video games, that sensation of power. Different games achieve it in different ways, but for Warframe, it is the ability to mow-down hordes of enemies, yes. That's the point. In fact, a part of what makes the Steel Path interesting is the fact that it throws even more enemies at you. Yes, I want to be able to eradicate them all. 

To be clear, I am not suggesting that this should be the only way games are made. Not at all. Or that Warframe should not have different "mechanics". I love dungeons and raids, and would love to have raids brought back (wasn't there for them back when they were in). 

But, just like you said in one of your replies:

4 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

.... as I mentioned before: Stamina was poorly implemented, another good concept wasted by DE, Stamina was unfairly eliminated as if it did not have any type of majority potential, Stamina needed a REWORK, do you think it is okay to remove a good concept when you implement it wrong? NO, ...

Power Fantasy can be poorly implemented or greatly implemented, doesn't meant it shouldn't be there... just REWORKED. In a way, it's a promise. That if you farm, practice, get loot, etc... you will eventually rise on top... you will be all powerful. 

Stamina:

Here again, why is it always good to have such a system implemented? I understand and respect opinions. I don't have to agree with you, or you with me. But this is not an opinion you are posting in so much as presenting "facts".

If you like the Stamina system and would like it introduced (or re-introduced apparently) into the game, then by all means, make that request, and maybe with enough support they bring it back. It would be better received if you had suggestions on how to implement it properly.

But to say that Warframe (or any game) would be better served with Stamina to control movement and combat and something, I can guarantee you is wrong for me. For me. My opinion. I make no claims for the betterment of the game, but if combat and movement are restricted by stamina, I would most likely stop playing the game. I have enough games that do this, I do not need them to be all alike.

In fact, it is movement, in its current iteration, that has kept me playing for so long.

In Closing:

I like to have different games in my library that deliver on the expectation of entertainment in different ways. Some will have complexity while others will be more simple. Some will deliver on the power fantasy by testing my skills (motor skills, logical and reasoning...etc), and some will just throw hordes of enemies at me. And finally some games will have limitations that I have to work around during gameplay, such as Stamina... while others will let me loose in their world.

Your posts are your opinion. I respect that. I agree with parts, but disagree with others. 

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9 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Let me guess, are you upset because Stamina restricts player movement? Well, let me tell you that Stamina should NOT restrict player movement, as I mentioned before: Stamina was poorly implemented, another good concept wasted by DE, Stamina was unfairly eliminated as if it did not have any type of majority potential, Stamina needed a REWORK, do you think it is okay to remove a good concept when you implement it wrong? NO, look at the conclave, another good modality good taken by other games and then DE that implement it badly and then has the impudence to abandon it, and another fact: the combats are not made to be like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ejSGAA6jOfM , https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qwxycRQzcis&t=112s that is garbage that cannot even be considered combat, the combats are not made to be fast paced, the combats are made to be a complicated challenge for the players, so that the players are careful and think 4 times before making any moves and the Stamina helps with that, and don't mistake the pace of combat with the pace of movement.

And guess what?, that's another of the big problems of the game, 30 super complex enemies divided and not equal between them on the map would be better than a horde of 30 simple enemies, the enemies must have quality, variety and quantity, and the hordes are a problem because only know the quantity (several enemies in the mission) but not the quality (because they are simple) or the variety (because all the enemies are equal in type).

 

Tell me, how many people are there in the forums who talk about CHALLENGE without having knowledge of it? How many people judge the game without knowing how to judge a game? The challenge comes from complexity, and to judge a game you must evaluate all the systems that compose it, things that many players do not know or do not demonstrate and the same goes to devs, there are many people who do Feedback without knowing that Feedback should benefit the players, the game and the developers, tell me, is it good that they do not know about those things? , no, right?, then why do you complain that I educate them with terms that they dont demostrate to know so that they try to give better feedback and better content?

You need to stop with all your "let me guess" attempts because they've all been wrong so far. I'm a pretty big Souls-borne fan myself, waiting for news on Elden Ring like the rest of us, so i get how Stamina is implemented in those games and subsequently why it wouldn't work in Warframe. Why it didn't work in Warframe already.

As for your Stamina argument, it now makes no sense at all. You previously mentioned that a minor task like reloading would use Stamina, but now Movement wouldn't? The rules behind your request make no sense at all after that. You cant cherry-pick which physical tasks do/do not use Stamina. They all do or they all dont. Just like the Souls-borne games.

Finally, and i cant believe i actually have to ask this, but do you honestly believe your feedback could ever be taken seriously when you go and call the devs Impudent? If you were ever looking for an example of why i suggested reading over your posts before submitting them, this is it.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

You are wrong, creating complex mechanics in a game makes the gameplay deeper, for example: the movement system in WF has mechanics based on Parkour which gives players the option to interact with structures (walls, etc. .), while in other games you can't even climb a wall (fortnite for example) because its movement system is not complex

I'm not wrong... You simply misunderstood me... Like I said...you need to use Complexity to give depth to your game but simply Increasing the Complexity does not increased depth....

That's why the Word "Convoluted" Exists...

To refer to a situation where an Increase in Complexity does not result in an Increase in Depth.

10 hours ago, (PS4)StationOfDead said:

Stamina is not made to restrict the movement of players,

I never said it is...

 

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