DE, can Hydroid please get a rework.

[TheGodofWiFi]

People have been saying this literally for years; Hydroid is in desperate need for an actual decent rework. No one except the minor Hydroid enthusiast crowd and the people who love Spearguns will be buying his upcoming deluxe bundle unless he gets a proper rework.

All of his abilities suck at the moment and are outclassed by every other ability in the CC, Utility and Damage categories. Hydroid's only real previous use was as a loot frame, but now Khora has firmly unseated him from that position due to the fact that she is more fun to play and her Pilfering Strangledome is for easier/reliable to use as opposed to Pilfering Swarm.

[AlphaPHENIX]

Hey, at least Hydroid still has the chance to be given a rework at some point.
Meanwhile, Zephyr was given a ''rework'' that debateably made things worse. But because she has been ''reworked'', she is checked off the list and likely won't be getting anything for a long time.

[Jamescell]

They need to devote at least one person to purely ability design/enemy ability design. Seems like everyone works on it at different random times and no one really mainly does this type of thing. Scott is spread all over the place.

I think the dream would be if they hired someone who has worked on Mobas. We'd really start to see some top tier kits in terms of intuitive interactions and not cookie-cut useless stuff that DE can't seem to help but keep throwing at players.

But ultimately I agree, never use Hydroid because his kit really sucks. This is the case for a lot of frames though. Like why would I play Atlas ever? He looks cool, he has cool punchies, but in terms of high end content scaling or abilities outside of punching, his kit is pretty god awful. Feel pretty similar about Nyx and Frost (although I love frost so I've figured out a few ways to build him out that are reasonably useful). Same goes for Oberon.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I'm definitely a Hydroid enthusiast that will be buying the deluxe. I'm also a Hydroid enthusiast that badly wants him reworked. He's versatile and awesomely themed and I laugh way more than I should when using my blue "tentacle" Phage with him....but he's just not good at what he does compared to other frames that do it.

5 hours ago, Jamescell said:

They need to devote at least one person to purely ability design/enemy ability design.

Yes, we've asked for his for years and never got it.

5 hours ago, Jamescell said:

I think the dream would be if they hired someone who has worked on Mobas

YES!

5 hours ago, Jamescell said:

intuitive interactions

YES PLEASE!

I also play Smite (MOBA) on PS4 I've been telling my friend that Warframe kits need to be designed in this way with specific balance and interactions in mind and not just whatever numbers and mechanics the developers think are fun to mash in that day.

5 hours ago, Jamescell said:

But ultimately I agree, never use Hydroid because his kit really sucks. This is the case for a lot of frames though. Like why would I play Atlas ever? He looks cool, he has cool punchies, but in terms of high end content scaling or abilities outside of punching, his kit is pretty god awful. Feel pretty similar about Nyx and Frost (although I love frost so I've figured out a few ways to build him out that are reasonably useful). Same goes for Oberon.

Ash, Nyx, Limbo, Hydroid and Atlas are my most used frames, and all among the most requested reworks. 😕 It's amazing I've played this game this long when I am focusing more on theme than actual useful function. 😢

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Hey, at least Hydroid still has the chance to be given a rework at some point.
Meanwhile, Zephyr was given a ''rework'' that debateably made things worse. But because she has been ''reworked'', she is checked off the list and likely won't be getting anything for a long time.

You’re forgetting that Hydroid actually got a rework when his prime came out.

[TheGodofWiFi]

7 hours ago, Jamescell said:

They need to devote at least one person to purely ability design/enemy ability design. Seems like everyone works on it at different random times and no one really mainly does this type of thing. Scott is spread all over the place.

Yea, DE has been on record as having an issue with mismanagement of tasks and who does what.

7 hours ago, Jamescell said:

But ultimately I agree, never use Hydroid because his kit really sucks. This is the case for a lot of frames though.

That's true, although Hydroid is one of the few whose entire kit is completely awful. Atlas needs some attention, but at least his punch build reliably takes out enemies and he can survive to a degree at high level.

52 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re forgetting that Hydroid actually got a rework when his prime came out.

That was not a rework. It was a batch of cynically timed tweaks that popped up out of nowhere right before his Prime Access came out, with no previous mention at all by the devs. They labelled it a rework so it looked like they'd actually done something positive with Hydroid so they could at least get some money from his PA pack, since they knew no one would be pay actual money for Hydroid unless they made it look like he'd been made better.

However, the tweaks only exacerbated his issues instead of addressing them, making him worse than he was before, which is worth a round of applause in itself because I wasn't sure you could make the meme-frame even worse. 

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

27 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

so they could at least get some money from his PA pack, since they knew no one would be pay actual money for

I wish they had this Mentality with Atlas, but this let his PA come and go without a second look, and likely without a second sale. Lol

[TheGodofWiFi]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

I wish they had this Mentality with Atlas, but this let his PA come and go without a second look, and likely without a second sale. Lol

Probably because they knew Atlas was functional, but bland. Basically like Inaros.

[AlphaPHENIX]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You’re forgetting that Hydroid actually got a rework when his prime came out.

Ya, so minor my brain was going back and forth between weather the quality of life stuff was always there. (clicking on enemies to pull them into undertow and such)

Still, Hydroid was actually helped by these.
Air Burst was the worst, and even more offensively, most boring ability Zephyr could have gotten. Combining Tail Wind and Dive Bomb limits the angles at which you can Tail Wind down and I could rant on for a while.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

42 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Probably because they knew Atlas was functional, but bland. Basically like Inaros.

That's true, but unlike Inaros, Atlas has been one of the most demanded for reworks and one of the least played frames in their graphs they have shown in the past. 

They knew Inaros would sell no matter what because he's successful in gameplay without any effort. Atlas requires spamming his one good ability literally nonstop and constantly requires upkeep on his rubble, which clearly has not made him popular. Lol

[TheGodofWiFi]

As the title says; Hydroid is still in need of a rework, the Helminth system does not make him better at all even if you put a decent ability like Roar on him. All of his remaining abilities are just absolute garbage due to their clunky/time-wasting mechanics and RNG nature. This probably the only frame where I would say he needs a completely new suite of powers as all of them are just woefully inferior to everything else in this game.

Besides the fact that Helminth cannot save Hydroid, that system is not an excuse to not give frames the reworks they desperately need in the first place.

[chaotea]

Hydroids not that bad. Hes not top teir, but lots of frames arnt.

You could just use a different frame.

[Fiedra]

all he needs is a slight range increase and charge time reduction so that natural talent/speed drift aren't mandatory on him, but otherwise i really think there isn't much of a problem with him.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

The helminth system shoulden`t make a warframe usable it should just assist with the other abilities. This is why I don`t like the H system, ppl say that a warframe is better because of it (Ash being an example with mod) if the system makes a frame usable then this shows that the frames need a rework, revisit or QOL e.g. Loki`s decoy with banish. To get back on the topic, I do agree that he needs a look over and i`m not apposed if he were to receive a rework.

Here is what I would to for a revisit to him tell me what you think.

 

Hydroid:

Passive NEW: Melee slam attacks sends out a water wave that’s knocks enemies down and reduces their knockdown recovery rate by 50%.

 

1st ability:

·       Increase the charge time.

·       After cast, it will start instantly.

 

2nd ability:

·       Press button again to stop moving instead of using 3rd ability. (It`s a waste of energy)

·       (Synergy) While the 4th is active, casting his 2 will summon the Kraken`s head within the 2nd ability, enemies hit will receive double the damage.

·       2nd and 3rd ability synergy fix: Enemies are not dragged out of the puddle with you when used.

 

3rd ability:

·       Casting your 4th ability will also summon the kraken which mean you can be in two places at once, Hydroid in one spot and the kraken seeking out enemies.

 

4th ability:

·       Increase the charge time.

·       The kraken will seek out enemies not affected by his tentacles and has a 60% chance in making enemies seeing it flee in fear, this will prompt the kraken into chasing them, consuming them and removing them of the map.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

I honestly see no reason for his 1 and 4 to even have a charge time. The casts should be instant at their current max charge. 

The augment for his 1 should be improved, because corrosion procs are less effective as before and damage reduction from corrosion is now capped at 80% instead going to 100%. Maybe 50% defense reduction at base value on hit? The problem with even the old corrosion procs was that the Tempest Barrage projectiles are extremely inconsistent at hitting the same enemy multiple times.

The CC from his tentacles should be made less annoying. Maybe the tentacles could move the enemies close to the Kraken to ''feed it'' for the lack of better word, and the damage dealt by his 4 would increase the closer the enemies are to the Kraken. The current damage value would act as the minimum damage at the very edges of the ability. Having the enemies in a tighter area is much more useful than having the flung by the tentacles.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Passive NEW: Melee slam attacks sends out a water wave that’s knocks enemies down and reduces their knockdown recovery rate by 50%.

 

1st ability:

·       Increase the charge time.

·       After cast, it will start instantly.

 

2nd ability:

·       Press button again to stop moving instead of using 3rd ability. (It`s a waste of energy)

·       (Synergy) While the 4th is active, casting his 2 will summon the Kraken`s head within the 2nd ability, enemies hit will receive double the damage.

·       2nd and 3rd ability synergy fix: Enemies are not dragged out of the puddle with you when used.

 

3rd ability:

·       Casting your 4th ability will also summon the kraken which mean you can be in two places at once, Hydroid in one spot and the kraken seeking out enemies.

 

4th ability:

·       Increase the charge time.

·       The kraken will seek out enemies not affected by his tentacles and has a 60% chance in making enemies seeing it flee in fear, this will prompt the kraken into chasing them, consuming them and removing them of the map.

I like the sound of this.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

4 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

I like the sound of this.

Appreciated. It makes not sense to have the Kraken appear but do nothing for the abilities.

[Kokokojo]

46 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Hydroids not that bad. Hes not top teir, but lots of frames arnt.

You could just use a different frame.

Saying "Play a different frame" is the same thing as saying play a different game if you have issue with Warframe. People want to play the frame they want and feel they're contributing to something.

 

 

On topic:

 

Hydroid is on that spot where his abilities are a hindrance to the team and himself.

All of his abilities either ragdoll, flail or make enemies hard to hit in some way or another. The abilities themselves have little to no benefits to use (specially after status rework, since he can't fully strip armor anymore).

Hydroid's state right now shows how short visioned his revision was.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

Chroma needs one before Hydroid. Hydroid at least has 4 working abilities. 

[Marine027]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Vexx757:

The helminth system shoulden`t make a warframe usable it should just assist with the other abilities. This is why I don`t like the H system, ppl say that a warframe is better because of it (Ash being an example with mod) if the system makes a frame usable then this shows that the frames need a rework, revisit or QOL e.g. Loki`s decoy with banish. To get back on the topic, I do agree that he needs a look over and i`m not apposed if he were to receive a rework.

This here so much, same reason i not like it, it feels like a lame excuse to safe up on reworks becasue now if somthing is "bad" you can just replace it, robbing frames of there identity, what baffles me most is this, you can only use a specific power, yet can replace everything you want? Seems arguing against itself from the start. Another system slapped on and soon be left in the dust again like Focus.

[(PSN)zenhumphrey]

He can deal tons of damage with undertoe, he can also heal with the augment (I'm not actually sure if he has an augment that heals players when using undertoe so correct me if I'm wrong) he can also reduce armor with his tempest barrage when using the augment, can be a good loot frame for low levels, can crowd control and he can also become invincible while being allowed to cast all his other abilities, he's a jack of all trades but the thing that I just hate the most about him is how boring he is, he can deal damage with undertoe but you need to wait until it starts to deal massive damage, he can farm resources but you'll just be camping (i know the same goes for khora but at least you'd have to spam whipclaw), he crowd controls but in a boring way and he armor strips also in a boring way, he's a good frame but just really boring so I'd say he does need a rework that makes him just more fun to play.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Chroma needs one before Hydroid. Hydroid at least has 4 working abilities. 

In all honesty I prefer the CC provided by Chroma's effigy over Hydroid's tendrils. For example, effigy is totally capable of holding an interception tower after capturing it. You also do not need a full power strength build for regular star chart missions so you can easily build for some efficiency.

[Wyrmius_Prime]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)zenhumphrey said:

He can deal tons of damage with undertoe, he can also heal with the augment (I'm not actually sure if he has an augment that heals players when using undertoe so correct me if I'm wrong) he can also reduce armor with his tempest barrage when using the augment, can be a good loot frame for low levels, can crowd control and he can also become invincible while being allowed to cast all his other abilities, he's a jack of all trades but the thing that I just hate the most about him is how boring he is, he can deal damage with undertoe but you need to wait until it starts to deal massive damage, he can farm resources but you'll just be camping (i know the same goes for khora but at least you'd have to spam whipclaw), he crowd controls but in a boring way and he armor strips also in a boring way, he's a good frame but just really boring so I'd say he does need a rework that makes him just more fun to play.

Undertow's range is too small to be truly useful in a fast paced game like Warframe. More popular frames like Mesa and Saryn can very easily turn a Hydroid in the squad totally useless. His CC is a nuisance, its a negative and not a positive thing about him. Targeting enemies that are being flung by the tentacles in the air isn't fun. Tempest barrage with the augment is bad because how bad the ability is at targeting the same enemy multiple times and how the new corrosive procs actually work. The fact that the reduction also depends on corrosive PROCS means that status immune enemies are immune to the entire ability, which means you waste an entire mod slot for the augment. ANY warframe is good at low levels, most are in fact much better than Hydroid.

'Jack of all trades' would imply that he can do multiple things moderately, but even that isn't the case here. For comparison, Wisp too can deal scaling damage with her Breach Surge, she can heal and buff fire rate and melee attack speed with her motes and also provide CC with Breach Surge and the shock mote. On top of all that she also has brief invisibility with her 2. She is also a jack of all trades with the slight difference that Wisp isn't garbage or a nuisance.

[TheGodofWiFi]

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

Hydroids not that bad. Hes not top teir, but lots of frames arnt.

Hydroid is most definitely bad. His ability mechanics are very clunky, awkward to use in the heated moment and are just not very good damage, CC or utility wise. A lot of other frames are top tier actually and Hydroid is one of the few who are not, but even in that category at the very bottom.

2 hours ago, chaotea said:

You could just use a different frame.

As someone else has pointed out; thats like saying "you could play a different game". That's not a valid response. I would like to play Hydroid, but I also want Hydroid to actually be effecitve, which he isn't. Having a problem with something doesn't mean you should give up and move on.

2 hours ago, Fiedra said:

all he needs is a slight range increase and charge time reduction so that natural talent/speed drift aren't mandatory on him, but otherwise i really think there isn't much of a problem with him.

He doesn't stand out in anyway. His damage is pitiful, his abilities are clunky, unreliable and boring. Hydroid has a lot of problems. Range and casting speed are not his main problems.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

The helminth system shoulden`t make a warframe usable it should just assist with the other abilities.

I know. Problem is that DE are probably going to use as an excuse to not rework frames anymore, considering they can just say "Meh slap another frames ability on the ones you don't like" which is something I'm really hoping they don't do.

But like I said in the title; Helminth cannot assist Hydroid because he is in such a poor state to begin with. Only a rework can actually make him decent at this point.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Passive NEW: Melee slam attacks sends out a water wave that’s knocks enemies down and reduces their knockdown recovery rate by 50%.

Definitely more useful than his current passive, but still not that great to be honest.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Increase the charge time.

Wait, you want to increase the charge time on both Temptest and Swarm? The charging mechanic is one of the main issues with Hydroid's two abilities. Charge mechanics on an offensive ability in this game are pointless and kind of bad since they require you to hold down the button for a few seconds to get the most damage, when other frames cast get the full benefits of their abilities instantly. Removing the charge mechanics would be the first step towards improving Hydroid without a shadow of a doubt. Increasing them will just make him even less viable.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

2nd ability:

This isn't enough. Tidal Surge is clunky enough as it is, we don't need to make it even more clunky by adding stop and start buttons. Reworking it into something else entirely would be a much better option. Also, when you say enemies receive double damage, do you mean from the wave or your weapons? If its the second option, then you have a decent idea for a new ability which makes enemies more vulnerable to general damage. If its the first, then its still really bad as Tidal Surge's damage is absolutely pitiful to put it politely.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

3rd ability

Keeping Undertow is pointless. It's widely renowned as one of, if not the worst ability in the game. It takes away 90% of the games interaction, reduces your speed to that of a snail and does horrible damage. Keeping it just holds Hydroid back. It needs to be removed.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

The kraken will seek out enemies not affected by his tentacles and has a 60% chance in making enemies seeing it flee in fear, this will prompt the kraken into chasing them, consuming them and removing them of the map.

This still doesn't sound very useful and doesn't fix the core problems with Hydroid's abilities, which is that they are RNG based and inefficient. Instead of making a feature like this, why not rework the ability so that when you cast it, you know that enemies will 100%be affected by it. The tentacles right now need a rework.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Chroma needs one before Hydroid. Hydroid at least has 4 working abilities. 

What are you talking about? I agree that Chroma needs to be looked at, but at least two of his abilities are pretty good. Hydroid on the other hand has no good abilities whatsoever. No one needs a rework more than him, as unlock Chroma, Hydroid has zero usage in any situation whatsoever these days.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

7 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

What are you talking about? I agree that Chroma needs to be looked at, but at least two of his abilities are pretty good. Hydroid on the other hand has no good abilities whatsoever. No one needs a rework more than him, as unlock Chroma, Hydroid has zero usage in any situation whatsoever these days.

2 good abilities is only half of his kit. That's worse than four crap abilities that all function. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

26 minutes ago, (PS4)zenhumphrey said:

He can deal tons of damage with undertoe, he can also heal with the augment (I'm not actually sure if he has an augment that heals players when using undertoe so correct me if I'm wrong) he can also reduce armor with his tempest barrage when using the augment, can be a good loot frame for low levels, can crowd control and he can also become invincible while being allowed to cast all his other abilities, he's a jack of all trades but the thing that I just hate the most about him is how boring he is, he can deal damage with undertoe but you need to wait until it starts to deal massive damage, he can farm resources but you'll just be camping (i know the same goes for khora but at least you'd have to spam whipclaw), he crowd controls but in a boring way and he armor strips also in a boring way, he's a good frame but just really boring so I'd say he does need a rework that makes him just more fun to play.

Undertow's scaling damage sounds nice on paper, but when you actually use it in game, its complete rubbish. The damage ticks up so incredibly slowly that its pointless even using it on low-levels and you can 100% forget about trying to kill any mid to high-level enemy with it in the next hundred years. The range on the puddle is also so small you might as well not even bother. That playstyle is also incredibly boring as well. 

Yes his Undertow does have an augment that heals himself and allies, but it's a rubbish rate of healing. Also as a rule of thumb, abilities should not need augments in order to be even slightly effective. A good ability should stand on its own, with the augment adding a little extra. Augments cannot be excuses for badly designed/executed abilities. Look at frames like Rhino or Nidus. They do not need augments in order to make their abilities decent.

Hydroids armour reduction once again comes from an augment and like Curative Undertow, it's also pretty bad. Before the damage rework it was usable, despite still being an inefficient and unreliable way to strip enemy armour, but now its completely useless as opposed to being meh.

His CC capability is also incredibly unreliable and inferior to other frames who are actually built with that in mind.

Hydroids invincibility is also vastly inferior to frames like Limbo, Nidus and Harrow to name a few, as it is reliant on you sitting in a puddle, not using your guns/melee and moving about as fast as a tired sloth. Those other frames can also cast their abilities while they're invincible, so Hydroid is not unique in that regard at all.

The final nail in the coffin is when Khora got her loot augment, which officially condemned Hydroid to the Swamps of Obsolescence.

One of Hydroid's main problems is boredom, but the other half is his inefficient RNG nature and clunky mechanics that plague his abilities. Both of those issues need to be reworked for him to be made good.