Jump to content

The token system is great, but the costs are much more difficult to meet than in other economies


Recommended Posts

While I really like the concept of the token system, I think some of the costs are problematic. There's two parts to the problem: how much of your resources you have to spend per token, and which resources you have to spend per token. I'm gonna focus on Daughter for this, but the problem also appears to lesser degrees with the Son, Otak, and Father.

The per-token cost is pretty high, higher than POE and Vallis per 100 standing. The easiest, most common fish in POE and Vallis gives you 100+ standing in four lowest-quality fish or less. And when you fish in POE or Vallis, you can quickly catch a lot of fish. And for standing purposes, it really doesn't matter what you fish for. You can turn in any fish for standing at any time.

Each of Daughter's single tokens—which give 100 standing each—requires at least five of the lowest-quality fish. And that's cheap. I'm looking at a single token right now that requires at least seven fish: 3 saturated muscle mass (1 per fish), 4 pustulent cognitive nodules (1 per fish, or 2 from the largest size of the rarest fish), and 6 ferment bladder (2-6 per fish depending on size and type). So that's 3 for the muscle mass plus 4 for the nodules (can bring that down to 2 if I use processed bait at the right time of day and get extremely lucky). The ferment bladders I'll probably pick up while gathering the other two resources.

 

And what really makes it tough is the RNG factor. You never know what a Daughter token is going to cost. So if you want to farm her tokens, you have to fish up massive quantities of all types, just to make sure you've got enough of the specific resources she wants for her tokens this time. That multiplies your costs over the near term, because it means that not every fish you catch is necessarily going to net you any part of a token.

That RNG factor affects the other tokens as well, and that factor gets multiplied further when it comes to Grandmother tokens. And on top of all that, you have to worry about the resources you need to craft the new weapons and gear. When prices are set in advance, you can do what you need to do. When prices fluctuate wildly, you're pressured to hoard gigantic stacks of everything. Which—based on Helminth, among other things—was something I thought DE was trying to get away from a little bit.

In POE and Vallis, you can easily figure out what you need to farm for, and farm that until you have enough. In Cambion Drift, you can't really do that. You never know what your goal is, because you don't know the advancement costs up front. If I need resource A for both a new weapon and a new frame, in POE or Vallis I can farm that resource until I have enough for both. In Cambion Drift, I might farm out what I need for crafting and then have to decide between actually crafting the thing, or buying tokens.

 

What the token system needs, I think, is a way to buy some tokens with other tokens. Like you do with Grandmother tokens, but not simply limited to one type. If you have excess tokens of type A, you should be able to buy some tokens of type B—not a direct exchange, maybe at a 2:1 or 5:1 or even 10:1 ratio, depending on the relative values. Being able to buy 1 Daughter token for 10 Mother tokens, for instance. Or 1 Father token for 3 Son tokens, and vice-versa.

Basically, take a little of the RNG out of the system. And maybe bring down some of the prices, especially for single tokens.

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thing is we've always had a way to stockpile faction XP, mining and fishing have always been that thing. 

All the token system did was to gut mining and fishing, somewhat shift a semblance of that over to bounties and needlessly convolute literally all other interactions.

There should have been no interaction with tokens and other characters, they should have just been a thing that happened with bounties to bring them in line with other existing faction banks. 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand what you are saying, but to me it still doesn't feel that much more grindy even though the tokens seem like it would be more expensive, and I think it is ease of resource finding. 

For example, conservation on PoE is incredibly rewarding, and you can easily rack up 2000+ standing in a quick triple capture of something you see without even using lures for the really rare stuff (although getting 2000+ that quick still requires a good it of luck).... but, that's kind of the point. PoE is huge and finding animals without lures is a mixed bag, usually something near the entrance but its often just the mouse things and not the more valuable birds. You can wander all over for a while and not find much. Fishing requires me to take my slow time, usually needing dyes because of the light of day. Mining nodes are very spread out, and you often spend forever just trying to find the node right next to you. 

But on Deimos. 

It is TEEMING with wildlife. Everywhere. All around you, like all the time. Conservation is easy if you got points for Conservation on Deimos the way you do on PoE or Vallis, I'd have several weeks worth of standing in like 30 minutes. Velicopods, Predasites, and so many others just roaming all over the place and interacting with other wildlife. In Vallis you can't even FIND them in the wild without using lures. 

Mining is way more quality of life and has little diamonds that point you to the nodes, and mining nodes are generous and all over the place. 

Fish literally swim ABOVE the water, in mass amounts, and I can just walk around see mass fish, stop real quick, grab my fishing spear and have a bunch in a couple minutes then go back to other stuff. In PoE or Vallis it's stop and prepare and slowly take your time. 

I can just spam this stuff while doing other stuff and get a ton really fast... it doesn't feel like a slow chore. It feels better integrated and way faster and ease of use, and in return, yes, the tokens/stuff we buy with it costs more. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

It is TEEMING with wildlife. Everywhere. All around you, like all the time. Conservation is easy if you got points for Conservation on Deimos the way you do on PoE or Vallis, I'd have several weeks worth of standing in like 30 minutes. Velicopods, Predasites, and so many others just roaming all over the place and interacting with other wildlife. In Vallis you can't even FIND them in the wild without using lures. 

Mining is way more quality of life and has little diamonds that point you to the nodes, and mining nodes are generous and all over the place. 

Fish literally swim ABOVE the water, in mass amounts, and I can just walk around see mass fish, stop real quick, grab my fishing spear and have a bunch in a couple minutes then go back to other stuff. In PoE or Vallis it's stop and prepare and slowly take your time. 

I can just spam this stuff while doing other stuff and get a ton really fast... it doesn't feel like a slow chore. It feels better integrated and way faster and ease of use, and in return, yes, the tokens/stuff we buy with it costs more. 

Except that everything you do is worth about 1/10 as much. In OV I could hunt 4 Kubrodons in 10 minutes and be done with standing for the day, and still get a floof for my troubles, but on Deimos I have to hunt everything to even have a chance at 500 standing, and I'll need to sacrifice my ability to get a floof in order to do so. Fish swim above the water, sure, but they're constantly murdered by everything else in the area and they're almost always Kymaeros, which isn't helpful because I already have over 100 Saturated Muscle Mass. Mining drops Bapholite by the metric butt-ton, great, but Otak almost never asks for that, he's only interested in literally everything else. See the issues here?

The one thing Deimos does have going for it is the ability to just wander around and pick up all the resources from random garbage pods. I think about half my fishing bits came from boxes and pillars, because Glutinox apparently don't exist and I don't even know which fish drops Dendrite Blastoma.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, travelling betweenLoid to Father, Daughter and Son to see if they are selling something you can buy is a bit tedious.

But what really annoys me are the daughter tokens. More than often enough she sells like 10 different tokens, but for 9 of them you need that one resource you don't have.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

The one thing Deimos does have going for it is the ability to just wander around and pick up all the resources from random garbage pods. I think about half my fishing bits came from boxes and pillars, because Glutinox apparently don't exist and I don't even know which fish drops Dendrite Blastoma.

Worm giblets are the basic bait, the rare fish bait come from the daughter at higher rank. Use the opposite one to the time it currently is. Fish are different per time of day and open versus cave, just like Vallis. Hovering over fish parts tells you what they come from.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not good, and here is why:

Previous open world's: play a few weeks, have standing for up to literal years ready each day.

Deimos: play a few weeks, either dedicate your life to buy every token on reset, loosing a lot of even rare resources, or have no standing at all for the future. If you're out of tokens, and DE adds something new and expensive: enjoy visiting the town every hour-ish for up to days before you can get anything. (Because tokens are limited, even time gated)

I'm all in for bringing back the original way to gain standing, through bounties, fishing, mining and conservation.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as gaining standing is concerned, I love the token system and the flexibility it offers in allowing me to not "have to" play there for my daily standing. Similar to Little Duck, I can farm up the required items, enough for a week even, in one session and then just hand-in the remaining 6 days.

But back to the point of costs, the issue I believe is not the cost itself in as much as the conversion into Grandmother tokens. The need of it.

In total we need 60 tokens for the 3 required Seriglass Shards (I think that's the name). 1 for rank up, and 2 for weapons. (was there one more?) and then the rest of what she offers, which at times requires tokens from the others.

One quick and, IMO better, solution would be to remove the Grandmother token cost of the items she sells. No items should require tokens. Make them expensive in terms of standing, and if there is an insistence on keeping tokens, then make it require 1 token from the respective family member. 

I am someone who doesn't mind mining and fishing in games. There are moments when I actually enjoy them... it's "being forced to do them" that I have issues with. And while yes, there are ways that mitigate the grind on Deimos, it is not the resources that are the issue. I actually love the Requiem Pylons idea, but even then, you will be forced to mine or fish.

Over on PoE or OV, you have options for standing. And the resources are just there for crafting. As OP mentions, you know where to go and how much to get. But due to the token conversion system in Necralisk, which fluctuates and is random, It is a pain. And I should know, as for the time being, the only things for me to buy from the Entratis are decorations and that Captura scene, which I won't get since apparently it has been patched in as a reward for rank up.

To be fair though, I have to admit it felt overall as an easier process than the others, due to the sheer amount of ways you can get the required resources. Annoying? sure.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

What the token system needs, I think, is a way to buy some tokens with other tokens.

No, we do not need this token system at all, since it is a downgrade compared to previous open world economies. Tokens serve no purpose but to increase grind and introduce additional time gates as well as RNG elemenets.

  • Less intuitive/straight forward excahnge approach, which leads to a worse user experience becaouse...
    • Economy in PoE/Fortuna: gems/fish/hunts ---> standing/items
    • Economy in HoD: gems/fish/hunts ---> tokens ---> standing/items
  • Tokens are pointless middlemen, as we still traide collectibles for staning or itmes.
  • Unnecessary currency bloat.
  • Additional RNG layers, as exchange from collectibles to tokens has an additional RNG requirement
  • Additional time-gate, as token pool is replenished after a timer (you could have been farming for an hour, but you won't be able to exchange all gathered resources since there are only so many tokens you can buy).
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

No, we do not need this token system at all, since it is a downgrade compared to previous open world economies. Tokens serve no purpose but to increase grind and introduce additional time gates as well as RNG elemenets.

  • Less intuitive/straight forward excahnge approach, which leads to a worse user experience becaouse...
    • Economy in PoE/Fortuna: gems/fish/hunts ---> standing/items
    • Economy in HoD: gems/fish/hunts ---> tokens ---> standing/items
  • Tokens are pointless middlemen, as we still traide collectibles for staning or itmes.
  • Unnecessary currency bloat.
  • Additional RNG layers, as exchange from collectibles to tokens has an additional RNG requirement
  • Additional time-gate, as token pool is replenished after a timer (you could have been farming for an hour, but you won't be able to exchange all gathered resources since there are only so many tokens you can buy).

Tokens allow grinding of standing without having to waste standing after you reach your cap. I personally think it's needed in the other open worlds. It just needs some minor tweaking. 

I think there should however be a permanent, repeatable but more expensive, using common resources and offering low amount of tokens  to exchange in every store for when you've run out of. 

 

I think the update made fishing way better. Now I get both standing and crafting materials from my fish. And I don't have to sacrifice either fish parts or standing. It's unfortunate that I can't get as many tokens as quick as I would get fish and as a result standing, though. I enjoy fishing, but was always annoyed having to either dedicate my time to standing or crafting. Now I can do both. I don't think tokens were absolutely necessary for it. But, having grandmothers store being family exchange based is something I actually like. It promotes playing all of what is available, and if you don't want to do all features you will as expected be slowed down in your progress. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NecroPed said:

Tokens allow grinding of standing without having to waste standing after you reach your cap. I personally think it's needed in the other open worlds. It just needs some minor tweaking. 

Except this feature is already in evey other open world.

15 minutes ago, ShortCat said:
  • Economy in PoE/Fortuna: gems/fish/hunts ---> standing/items
  • Economy in HoD: gems/fish/hunts ---> tokens ---> standing/items

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

Tokens allow grinding of standing without having to waste standing after you reach your cap.

It might be true for bounties and maybe conservation. Completely false for everything else.
What's the difference between stockpiling fish and gems vs tokens? Fish and gems don't change requirements randomly, don't ask for stuff I might not potentially have, and I'm not time-gated from getting more.

And excuse me for being blunt, but if you had to choose between fish components and standing, you are either terrible at managing your stockpiles or you don't like fishing as much as you claim because it doesn't take much time to grab a few "trash for standing" specimen on other open worlds. Lungfish comes to mind.

Edited by EvilChaosKnight
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Except this feature is already in evey other open world.

 

 

9 hours ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

It might be true for bounties and maybe conservation. Completely false for everything else.
What's the difference between stockpiling fish and gems vs tokens? Fish and gems don't change requirements randomly, don't ask for stuff I might not potentially have, and I'm not time-gated from getting more.

And excuse me for being blunt, but if you had to choose between fish components and standing, you are either terrible at managing your stockpiles or you don't like fishing as much as you claim because it doesn't take much time to grab a few "trash for standing" specimen on other open worlds. Lungfish comes to mind.

 

Sorry, probably should have elaborated more. That part was more about the bounties than anything else.  In previous open worlds once my standing cap was reached I had very little reason to do bounties, I still needed parts and lenses but without any standing gain I would not do them. If I could have done bounties unrestricted I'd have been a whole lot less frustrated trying to grind out items. 

 

And I literally had to choose between standing or fish parts because they don't give both in the first two open worlds. Fish can be traded for standing OR parts in the first two open worlds. Now I trade them for fish parts AND can get standing from them. It also promotes fishing all fish, learning the fishing spots and baits etc. (Something I enjoy) rather than stocking up on 500 of the one fish and never even bothering with another fish again because it's more convenient to sit there fishing murkray for standing. I need close to 30 large murkray for a days standing, and that can take a bit of time when RNG isn't nice to me. When I'm also trying to do arbitrations, steel path, fissures, sortie, railjack, run a clan and decorate a dojo while farming resources for that, I want to spend my time as best as I can. And having to dedicate my fish to either standing or fish parts set me back until I had finished crafting everything from cetus and could finally fish for standing. For Deimos I was able to actively craft things with fish parts while also getting standing from fishing, from the same fish. And I think that's a wonderful change.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, NecroPed said:

And I literally had to choose between standing or fish parts because they don't give both in the first two open worlds. Fish can be traded for standing OR parts in the first two open worlds. Now I trade them for fish parts AND can get standing from them.

I mean, not really though. You buy standing with the fish parts. You're not double-dipping, you're still choosing between parts or standing.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, motorfirebox said:

I mean, not really though. You buy standing with the fish parts. You're not double-dipping, you're still choosing between parts or standing.

And on top of that, we lost the ability to double dip on standing and floofs.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, motorfirebox said:

I mean, not really though. You buy standing with the fish parts. You're not double-dipping, you're still choosing between parts or standing.

Yeah, but I don't use the entire fish all the time. A fish equals fish parts. And fish parts can be used to craft with leftovers that can be used for standing. I literally don't have to choose between THE FISH being ENTIRELY STANDING or ENTIRELY RESOURCES. I CAN GET BOTH VERY EASILY BECAUSE OF TOKENS.
 

If 1 fish equals 10 parts (Throwing  number out for sake of math) and I only need 3 for crafting and 6 for standing, then I have gotten standing, crafting and excess out of the one fish. Whereas previously it was all in the one category. This IS better. Tokens just need MINOR TWEAKING.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NecroPed said:

Yeah, but I don't use the entire fish all the time. A fish equals fish parts. And fish parts can be used to craft with leftovers that can be used for standing. I literally don't have to choose between THE FISH being ENTIRELY STANDING or ENTIRELY RESOURCES. I CAN GET BOTH VERY EASILY BECAUSE OF TOKENS.
 

If 1 fish equals 10 parts (Throwing  number out for sake of math) and I only need 3 for crafting and 6 for standing, then I have gotten standing, crafting and excess out of the one fish. Whereas previously it was all in the one category. This IS better. Tokens just need MINOR TWEAKING.

It could work like that in theory, but the way the prices are set up, it generally doesn't, for a few reasons. One, each token requires multiple types of parts. If you buy standing with half the resources of one fish and half the resources of another, there's no net gain—you've used one fish for standing, and one for resources.

Second, different parts have different values. If a token costs six benign tumors, who cares, I can get those from just about any fish in quantity. If it requires three dendrite blastoma, that's an issue, because I can only ever get one of those per fish, from two types of fish, each of which drops only blastoma per fish. And just about every token Daughter offers requires 3+ of those higher-value parts.

think that the price drop in today's patch, combined with the increased rate of fish spawning, this problem will be much reduced. There's still a level of frustration due to the RNG, but I don't think it will feel quite as resource-starved.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

Second, different parts have different values. If a token costs six benign tumors, who cares, I can get those from just about any fish in quantity. If it requires three dendrite blastoma, that's an issue, because I can only ever get one of those per fish, from two types of fish, each of which drops only blastoma per fish. And just about every token Daughter offers requires 3+ of those higher-value parts.

This is exactly WHY I like it. This promotes fishing all the fish, and actually doing the gameplay that DE have worked hard on. Rather than skipping majority of it and fishing 1 fish because its the most convenient. 

Now lets say you don't need any benign tumors for crafting, but need dendrite blastoma. You split the fish into parts and can craft with dendrite, and leave the benign tumors for standing. Yes, you have to rely on RNG for tokens, but I can directly avoid consuming the fish parts that I need for crafting, while still getting something out of it for standing. In cetus I can't do anything with any of my leftover fish parts and basically have nothing left to craft with them. I've sold a lot of them for credits if I've been low and don't have enough for index and they will otherwise be left sitting in my inventory. Now, if I could use these fish parts for standing I would then have access to crafting and standing potentially from the same fish. 

 

(I personally think all token venders should simply have a permanent, repeatable, yet more expensive token exchange for when RNG is not in your favour or you do not have the time to constantly stock up through the day, combined with the increase fish spawns I think there would be no real issue with fishing other than the annoying window that comes up with every fish caught)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...