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A Critical Summary of Warframe's Monetization Methods


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On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Premium Currency
Using a special in-game resource that can be bought for real-life money, and is generally used for purchasing from in-game stores. One universal effect that premium currency is that it obfuscates the actual real-world cost of purchasing items from the customer.

  • A common strategy when selling premium currency bundles or items is to set the costs so that the items can't quite be purchased with the amount given from a bundle, leading the customer to have to pay for the next tier of bundle (spending more money) in order to get the necessary premium currency. Examples of this in Warframe include: the boosters, orbiter segments, weapon/warframe slots (over multiple purchases).
  • The vast majority of free currency (including resources required for crafting) cannot be traded between players, while the premium currency can, leaving it to be largely the main good required for trading.

Every online game has this, f2p or not. Also the "miss match of item price and currency bundle" thing, only works when you can't trade the currency with players, which is not the case in warframe.

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Confusopoly / Spending Traps
Intentional obfuscation or being misleading to trick customers into spending more money they might otherwise have spent.

  • The premium currency price of rushing the crafting of certain items is usually pretty high compared to the value of the item itself, ranging from bad value to legitimately negative value. For example, it costs more premium currency to rush building Excalibur and his parts (while also spending in-game resources in the process), than it does to buy Excalibur from the in-game market (with warframe slot and orokin catalyst included).
  • Most in-game resources (including credits) can be bought from the market for premium currency, however the rates that are charged are incredibly high compared to their actual value.
  • Many overpriced market deals, including buyable resources, credits, and mods (as well as the high cost of rushing), are presented to new players early on, and have the effect of setting their expectations about the value of the premium currency as much less than it actually is. This (intentionally) leads them to spend their free starting currency before they understand its value.
  • The fact that slots exist and must be paid for with premium currency if a player wants to gain new warframes, weapons, or companions is left for players to discover further into the game, giving them ample time to have already used up their starting currency, and leaving them to have to spend money to continue playing with new stuff (without selling items they already own).
  • The market price for purchasing standard Warframes is often higher than purchasing their (objectively superior) Prime versions through trade from other players.

This is monetization of players' self control. Those things' value only depends on the players' desire to acquire it immediately. Every game, hell, basically every product does this. Just think: "pre-order". 

The slot thing, every mmo I played have this. Recent memory is Guild War 2. It's a game that you pay 60 up front (before the first expansion was released, now the base version is f2p), and 60 each expansion. It still ask you premium currency for inventory space, and it's character based instead of account based. At least when I left a few years ago it was the case, not sure about now.

Also prime warframe's price is determined by the players. It can be way more expensive that the market warframe price. When I joined in in 2016, Ember prime is going for 800p.

 

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Time Pressure Deals
Applying time-limited deals to pressure customers into spending.

  • Darvo deals - Every day, a market item is given a random discount and presented to every player to buy. They are given a limited stock value which is displayed to the player, pressuring them to make a purchase before other players buy out the stock.
  • Prime Access + Unvaulting - Every so often, the set of available prime items and frames are rotated in and out. Gaining the Void Relics (lootboxes) containing the parts for those items is no longer possible through in-game loot when they are rotated out, meaning outside of trading for players and using up the copies of the relics they still have, players may not be able to get the parts they need. Items retired into the vault might not become available for months or years at a time, giving a pressure to try and acquire the items while they are available. Capitalising on that are Prime Access + Vault bundles, which give access to all(?) of a particular set of currently unvaulted items in exchange for real-world money.
  • Platinum discounts - As part of a reward for logging in daily, players are occasionally given limited-time discount codes that can be spent when purchasing platinum bundles. Console players get a similarly limited-time discount for market purchases instead.

Very common marketing, if you consider this has a negative impact on consumer big enough worth mentioning, then it's hard to imagine any business on earth that won't bother you.

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Lootboxes / Gambling
Charging of money to give customers a random chance of gaining rewards.

  • Void Relic packs are available in the market for premium currency. The relic pack gives the player a random set of 3 Void Relics, which themselves are then opened for random rewards. It's buying a lootbox of lootboxes.
  • Previously, mod packs were sold for premium currency, giving players a random set of mods as rewards.
  • Previously, players could spend premium currency to randomly re-roll the appearance of their pets. While this method has been removed, the same effects of re-rolling via premium currency can still be achieved today, however: slightly more menuing is involved, the chance of getting the desired result is worse, and the premium currency cost for doing so is much higher.

Yeah they really should remove these shet.

Then again this game is rated M, so....casino rule applies. As in "you should know better".

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Hook, Habit, Hobby / Subscription
Using specific strategies to draw players in and keep them coming back. The ideal end-goal is to reinforce this habitually until the player considers playing the game a hobby itself (with the spending that brings). (You'll notice I'm stretching the actual definition of this term a bit).

  • Timers involved with crafting (and other systems) encouraging returning to the game at a later time to get their items.
  • The amount of standing (and some other resources) players can gain in a day for each syndicate is capped, require players to come back another day to continue progression.
  • Nightwave provides daily and weekly missions to complete. Missing out on too much of a Nightwave season can mean being unable to gain the exclusive rewards.
  • Boosters (often paid for with premium currency) come with a timer attached, encouraging the player to play as often as possible for its duration, in order to get the most value out of their purchase.
  • Many of the game's systems require grinding or substantial time investment, which in turn motivates players to return to play in part because of sunk costs.
  • Sorties largely give the best rewards, and can only be completed once per day.
  • Arbitrations are similar, but hourly.
  • The day-night (or equivalent) cycles used in the open world to restrict certain events to particular times encourage players to plan their time around the game if they want to play certain content (like Eidolon hunting).
  • Resource drones can be deployed to passively farm resources, but require resetting in-game after some time in order to get them running again.
  • Previously, if a player lapsed for several days without putting their pet into stasis (an act that was discouraged due to the wait times involved), their pet would be killed and permanently deleted.
  • Previously, time-limited alerts were special missions with exclusive random rewards. Players were encouraged to often come back to check current alerts to avoid missing out on desired rewards.

Don't know about the negative part mate....it's like -0.00001, at least not reach the "anti-consumer" level.

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Whaling
Intentionally targeting and enabling players who spend large amounts of money on the game.

  • Prime Access - Every 3 months or so, new prime items become available, and with them comes a special bundle including all of them, as well as some extra exclusive accessories which can only be purchased as part of these bundles (and during its prime unvaulting, which is a similarly-named but different thing). The price of the full bundle $139.99 USD, which is roughly the cost of 2 full-price "AAA" games (or 9.3 Hollow Knights - my favourite unfavourable metric :P). The affinity and credit booster included in the packs lasts 90 days, so basically until the next Prime Access is available, suggesting that the system is geared towards repeat-buyers (like a pseudo-subscription model).

I'm not sure if this is whaling. My understanding of whaling have to have RNG involved. Sell you a product you don't need every 3 month that you only need to buy once is ok in my book. I'm even if bought all of them it's only 4000$ across 6 years is not really whale worthy isn't it....

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Paid Mods / Community content storefront
Selling of content created by the community.

  • The Tennogen system allows members of the community to create and vote on new cosmetics to be added into the game. If accepted, they are available to be sold in-game, with some of the money going to the cosmetic's creator, while the rest goes to Digital Extremes (and Valve presumably taking a cut).
  • The cut that creators make is 30% of the sales. For some rough comparisons on similar-ish topics:
    • Cosmetic creators for Team Fortress 2 used to receive 25% of the sales of their items, though that is no longer true. Nowadays they make less than 7%.
    • On the topic of Valve, creators selling a game on the Steam store get 70% of the sales.
    • Throwing a curveball and instead of using the Epic store revenue share, I'll point out that sellers on itch.io get 90% of the sales, but are free to completely edit that value, even to 100%. Sorry, I think I'm getting a little offtopic... :P
  • This point is up for debate, but one criticism of this system is that it allows companies to exploit cheaper labour rather than producing content themselves. Judging by how Tennogen skins generally make up half or more of the available cosmetics, one could argue this might be the case in Warframe.

Wat? exploit cheap labour? give artist money for their PASSION PROJECT is exploit cheap labour? Is tennogen artist under contract that force them to produce skin in a steady pace or risk law suit? How Sway! HOW!!!

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Cosmetic Monetization
Charging real-world money for in-game cosmetics. One aspects of selling cosmetics is that they can be advertised and used to silently socially pressure others into buying them, simply by one player buying and wearing them.

  • With the exception of a few items, the majority of cosmetics available in-game can only be purchased using premium currency. Some other cosmetic items - like Tennogen and Prime Access/Vault bundle exclusives - must be paid for directly with money, rather than premium currency, meaning they can't even be purchased by people who pay their way by trading for premium currency.
  • Available colours are restricted and sold in sets (largely) for premium currency, rather than colours simply being freely selectable.
  • These purchased palettes can't be used to change the fur colour of pets, which use their own system of colour palettes that must be purchased separately (mostly as part of premium currency bundles from the market).
  • "Fashionframe" is the concept adopted by the community involving decorating one's warframe with the best cosmetics (similar to what's done in other games e.g. "fashionsouls", "fashionhunter"). While probably not intentionally started to encourage a culture of spending money on cosmetics by the players who participate, the developers - who profit from said culture - also public encourage it.
  • For certain purposes, players are forced to travel to social hubs, where they encounter other players, and their decorated Warframes (reinforcing / normalizing the idea of purchasing cosmetics, even just by their presence).
  • The end of mission screen was also recently changed to put player's cosmetics on front-and-centre display.
  • Previously, cosmetic helmets also had a mechanical impact on stats. They can still be accessed to this day as "Arcane" helmets, which take up an arcane slot when equipped, but their effects are generally much worse than that of an arcane.

This whole section is "make a mountain out of mole hill NOTHING"

On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Pay to Skip / Pay to not be inconvenienced
Giving players the ability to pay real money to skip parts of the game. Oftentimes, the game's design is intentionally pushed to make not doing so unsatisfying, in order to encourage spending.

  • Boosters are available for premium currency, which can individually boost the rate of gained affinity, credits, resources, and resource drop chances.
  • Previously, mod drop chance boosters were also available, though instead of being part of the in-game market and using premium currency, they could only be bought with money as part of a prime accessories bundle (costing $49.99 USD) for a 7 day booster.
  • Timers are introduced for crafting (and some other systems) to delay gaining items by a number of minutes, hours, or days. An option to spend premium currency is included to skip the delay is included.
  • Some level of restriction prevents players from "skipping ahead" by buying items beyond their Master Rank from the in-game market. However, this can be circumvented in some cases by spending much more money to purchase bundles that contain the desired items, which have no Mastery Rank restriction.
  • Newly released warframes have been locked behind increasingly more time consuming in-game grinds to acquire them (including real-life time gates). As such, players who want to play with them on release are incentivized to purchase them for premium currency in the market.
  • Many in-game resources required for tasks such as crafting can be purchased for premium currency from the market. Trading of almost all crafting resources between players is blocked, meaning a player's only option is to buy them from the market if they want them immediately.
  • Sets of mod and cosmetic configurations are restricted to 3 different options per item / weapon, with the option to spend premium currency for more.
  • Slots for additional loadouts - saved configurations of warframes, weapons, cosmetics and mods all in one for quick switching - can also be bought with premium currency.
  • Previously, revives were a limited daily resource. After expending them, players had to spend premium currency if they wanted to restore them.

Well I really do hope this kind of monetization do not exists, since it's impossible to see the difference between "This is the game I envisioned, but if you want it easier here you go" and "In order to make sure you buy or stuff, here I made your life harder".

 

In conclusion 

Pretty detailed list, and afaik nothing is false. I think the fact that this list has soo much non issues proves DE's monetization is on the mild side. Do a list like this for all online games (or any AAA games lol) currently on market, we'll get a full list of bullshet like the video OP linked. 

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If you can't criticize what you like, you're not a fan, you're a fanatic.
Criticizing the things we like means we can see the flaws and want it to be better.

That being said, there's a few things I'd like to touch on.

There's a number of things that Free to Play games are allowed to do in order to make money.
Every category I don't mention falls within the "It's ok when a free to play game does it and it's not a bad way of implementing this" category.
All of these are annoying by design in order to tempt you into spending money and that's fine when done in this context.

Confusopoly / Spending Traps
Yes, actually. The market is generally a scam with very few exceptions as is rushing crafts,
I fully agree with everything under this.

Lootboxes / Gambling
Void Relic packs - this would be a good point to make were it not for the fact that opening them often gives you more relics (as mission rewards) and also the game showers you in these in effectively every mission.
The pet thing is too slow to give the lootbox effect IMO but I can kinda see your point so I'll partially agree. (it's easy to avoid by just trading for imprints)

Paid Mods / Community content storefront

Would be bad if the creators weren't paid for each sale, the game is not moddable by its online, multilayer nature and this also falls well within the F2P category.
Context matters, paid mods were disliked because they were trying to sell content that was previously offered for free as well as offering content that fundamentally changed gameplay. Everything added through tennogen was made from day 1 with the intention to be sold, no different to the rest of the cosmetics in the game in any way save for the price (money has to reach more people and also some issues with Steam itself)
There's also the fact that the bad way of selling mods also included mod dependency (needing mods to make other mods work)

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1 hour ago, Rage_Inducer said:

If you can't criticize what you like, you're not a fan, you're a fanatic.
Criticizing the things we like means we can see the flaws and want it to be better.

But at the same time, those flaws must be regarded in context.

"Solving" most of these problems would likely result in a very short lifetime for the game.

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On 2020-09-15 at 2:56 PM, Atkana said:

Part of the reason that I have difficulty with recommending Warframe to others is because of the list of caveats it comes with from how the game is monetized - especially having to explain how to avoid the predatory traps that specifically target new players. So, I thought as somebody who is somewhat informed about game industry practices, it might be useful for me to do a writeup and explanation of all the monetization strategies used in Warframe that I'm aware of (so I can just link to this post instead of having to explain everything :P). My intention behind all this is to inform prospective players, as well as enlighten or remind existing players about the facts (I'd honestly forgotten about a decent amount of this, myself!).

Before going into this, please bear in mind:

  • You can both like, and be critical of a thing that you like.
  • Valuing and making affordances for something is subjective. You might personally give more or less slack to the monetization of a product because of your own reasons, such as a game being Free to Play (though I'd personally suggest challenging that idea given that the a good portion of the highest grossing modern video games are Free to Play titles, but I digress :P). This list is to inform customers, so they can make their own judgements.
  • For all the topics that I discuss, there can be or are legitimate positive reasons for their inclusion in the game. I will only be focusing on the points that negatively impact the customer, as that's what I consider most important (sorry if I come across as a downer ^.^;)

I'll be including a brief description of each strategy, followed by examples about how/why they are employed in Warframe. Note that information written like this is about things that used to be in the game, but no longer are - I thought they might be interesting to include as a matter of perspective. Without further ado, here we go:

Premium Currency
Using a special in-game resource that can be bought for real-life money, and is generally used for purchasing from in-game stores. One universal effect that premium currency is that it obfuscates the actual real-world cost of purchasing items from the customer.

  • A common strategy when selling premium currency bundles or items is to set the costs so that the items can't quite be purchased with the amount given from a bundle, leading the customer to have to pay for the next tier of bundle (spending more money) in order to get the necessary premium currency. Examples of this in Warframe include: the boosters, orbiter segments, weapon/warframe slots (over multiple purchases).
  • The vast majority of free currency (including resources required for crafting) cannot be traded between players, while the premium currency can, leaving it to be largely the main good required for trading.

Confusopoly / Spending Traps
Intentional obfuscation or being misleading to trick customers into spending more money they might otherwise have spent.

  • The premium currency price of rushing the crafting of certain items is usually pretty high compared to the value of the item itself, ranging from bad value to legitimately negative value. For example, it costs more premium currency to rush building Excalibur and his parts (while also spending in-game resources in the process), than it does to buy Excalibur from the in-game market (with warframe slot and orokin catalyst included).
  • Most in-game resources (including credits) can be bought from the market for premium currency, however the rates that are charged are incredibly high compared to their actual value.
  • Many overpriced market deals, including buyable resources, credits, and mods (as well as the high cost of rushing), are presented to new players early on, and have the effect of setting their expectations about the value of the premium currency as much less than it actually is. This (intentionally) leads them to spend their free starting currency before they understand its value.
  • The fact that slots exist and must be paid for with premium currency if a player wants to gain new warframes, weapons, or companions is left for players to discover further into the game, giving them ample time to have already used up their starting currency, and leaving them to have to spend money to continue playing with new stuff (without selling items they already own).
  • The market price for purchasing standard Warframes is often higher than purchasing their (objectively superior) Prime versions through trade from other players.

Time Pressure Deals
Applying time-limited deals to pressure customers into spending.

  • Darvo deals - Every day, a market item is given a random discount and presented to every player to buy. They are given a limited stock value which is displayed to the player, pressuring them to make a purchase before other players buy out the stock.
  • Prime Access + Unvaulting - Every so often, the set of available prime items and frames are rotated in and out. Gaining the Void Relics (lootboxes) containing the parts for those items is no longer possible through in-game loot when they are rotated out, meaning outside of trading for players and using up the copies of the relics they still have, players may not be able to get the parts they need. Items retired into the vault might not become available for months or years at a time, giving a pressure to try and acquire the items while they are available. Capitalising on that are Prime Access + Vault bundles, which give access to all(?) of a particular set of currently unvaulted items in exchange for real-world money.
  • Platinum discounts - As part of a reward for logging in daily, players are occasionally given limited-time discount codes that can be spent when purchasing platinum bundles. Console players get a similarly limited-time discount for market purchases instead.

Lootboxes / Gambling
Charging of money to give customers a random chance of gaining rewards.

  • Void Relic packs are available in the market for premium currency. The relic pack gives the player a random set of 3 Void Relics, which themselves are then opened for random rewards. It's buying a lootbox of lootboxes.
  • Previously, mod packs were sold for premium currency, giving players a random set of mods as rewards.
  • Previously, players could spend premium currency to randomly re-roll the appearance of their pets. While this method has been removed, the same effects of re-rolling via premium currency can still be achieved today, however: slightly more menuing is involved, the chance of getting the desired result is worse, and the premium currency cost for doing so is much higher.

Hook, Habit, Hobby / Subscription
Using specific strategies to draw players in and keep them coming back. The ideal end-goal is to reinforce this habitually until the player considers playing the game a hobby itself (with the spending that brings). (You'll notice I'm stretching the actual definition of this term a bit).

  • Timers involved with crafting (and other systems) encouraging returning to the game at a later time to get their items.
  • The amount of standing (and some other resources) players can gain in a day for each syndicate is capped, require players to come back another day to continue progression.
  • Nightwave provides daily and weekly missions to complete. Missing out on too much of a Nightwave season can mean being unable to gain the exclusive rewards.
  • Boosters (often paid for with premium currency) come with a timer attached, encouraging the player to play as often as possible for its duration, in order to get the most value out of their purchase.
  • Many of the game's systems require grinding or substantial time investment, which in turn motivates players to return to play in part because of sunk costs.
  • Sorties largely give the best rewards, and can only be completed once per day.
  • Arbitrations are similar, but hourly.
  • The day-night (or equivalent) cycles used in the open world to restrict certain events to particular times encourage players to plan their time around the game if they want to play certain content (like Eidolon hunting).
  • Resource drones can be deployed to passively farm resources, but require resetting in-game after some time in order to get them running again.
  • Previously, if a player lapsed for several days without putting their pet into stasis (an act that was discouraged due to the wait times involved), their pet would be killed and permanently deleted.
  • Previously, time-limited alerts were special missions with exclusive random rewards. Players were encouraged to often come back to check current alerts to avoid missing out on desired rewards.

Whaling
Intentionally targeting and enabling players who spend large amounts of money on the game.

  • Prime Access - Every 3 months or so, new prime items become available, and with them comes a special bundle including all of them, as well as some extra exclusive accessories which can only be purchased as part of these bundles (and during its prime unvaulting, which is a similarly-named but different thing). The price of the full bundle $139.99 USD, which is roughly the cost of 2 full-price "AAA" games (or 9.3 Hollow Knights - my favourite unfavourable metric :P). The affinity and credit booster included in the packs lasts 90 days, so basically until the next Prime Access is available, suggesting that the system is geared towards repeat-buyers (like a pseudo-subscription model).

Paid Mods / Community content storefront
Selling of content created by the community.

  • The Tennogen system allows members of the community to create and vote on new cosmetics to be added into the game. If accepted, they are available to be sold in-game, with some of the money going to the cosmetic's creator, while the rest goes to Digital Extremes (and Valve presumably taking a cut).
  • The cut that creators make is 30% of the sales. For some rough comparisons on similar-ish topics:
    • Cosmetic creators for Team Fortress 2 used to receive 25% of the sales of their items, though that is no longer true. Nowadays they make less than 7%.
    • On the topic of Valve, creators selling a game on the Steam store get 70% of the sales.
    • Throwing a curveball and instead of using the Epic store revenue share, I'll point out that sellers on itch.io get 90% of the sales, but are free to completely edit that value, even to 100%. Sorry, I think I'm getting a little offtopic... :P
  • This point is up for debate, but one criticism of this system is that it allows companies to exploit cheaper labour rather than producing content themselves. Judging by how Tennogen skins generally make up half or more of the available cosmetics, one could argue this might be the case in Warframe.

Cosmetic Monetization
Charging real-world money for in-game cosmetics. One aspects of selling cosmetics is that they can be advertised and used to silently socially pressure others into buying them, simply by one player buying and wearing them.

  • With the exception of a few items, the majority of cosmetics available in-game can only be purchased using premium currency. Some other cosmetic items - like Tennogen and Prime Access/Vault bundle exclusives - must be paid for directly with money, rather than premium currency, meaning they can't even be purchased by people who pay their way by trading for premium currency.
  • Available colours are restricted and sold in sets (largely) for premium currency, rather than colours simply being freely selectable.
  • These purchased palettes can't be used to change the fur colour of pets, which use their own system of colour palettes that must be purchased separately (mostly as part of premium currency bundles from the market).
  • "Fashionframe" is the concept adopted by the community involving decorating one's warframe with the best cosmetics (similar to what's done in other games e.g. "fashionsouls", "fashionhunter"). While probably not intentionally started to encourage a culture of spending money on cosmetics by the players who participate, the developers - who profit from said culture - also public encourage it.
  • For certain purposes, players are forced to travel to social hubs, where they encounter other players, and their decorated Warframes (reinforcing / normalizing the idea of purchasing cosmetics, even just by their presence).
  • The end of mission screen was also recently changed to put player's cosmetics on front-and-centre display.
  • Previously, cosmetic helmets also had a mechanical impact on stats. They can still be accessed to this day as "Arcane" helmets, which take up an arcane slot when equipped, but their effects are generally much worse than that of an arcane.

Pay to Skip / Pay to not be inconvenienced
Giving players the ability to pay real money to skip parts of the game. Oftentimes, the game's design is intentionally pushed to make not doing so unsatisfying, in order to encourage spending.

  • Boosters are available for premium currency, which can individually boost the rate of gained affinity, credits, resources, and resource drop chances.
  • Previously, mod drop chance boosters were also available, though instead of being part of the in-game market and using premium currency, they could only be bought with money as part of a prime accessories bundle (costing $49.99 USD) for a 7 day booster.
  • Timers are introduced for crafting (and some other systems) to delay gaining items by a number of minutes, hours, or days. An option to spend premium currency is included to skip the delay is included.
  • Some level of restriction prevents players from "skipping ahead" by buying items beyond their Master Rank from the in-game market. However, this can be circumvented in some cases by spending much more money to purchase bundles that contain the desired items, which have no Mastery Rank restriction.
  • Newly released warframes have been locked behind increasingly more time consuming in-game grinds to acquire them (including real-life time gates). As such, players who want to play with them on release are incentivized to purchase them for premium currency in the market.
  • Many in-game resources required for tasks such as crafting can be purchased for premium currency from the market. Trading of almost all crafting resources between players is blocked, meaning a player's only option is to buy them from the market if they want them immediately.
  • Sets of mod and cosmetic configurations are restricted to 3 different options per item / weapon, with the option to spend premium currency for more.
  • Slots for additional loadouts - saved configurations of warframes, weapons, cosmetics and mods all in one for quick switching - can also be bought with premium currency.
  • Previously, revives were a limited daily resource. After expending them, players had to spend premium currency if they wanted to restore them.

Too short, want more; If you'd like to learn more about some of the practices I've touched on, I'd recommend doing so straight from the horse's mouth by checking out the thoroughly depressing, and oh-god-I-can't-believe-this-is-all-real presentation "Let's go whaling: Tricks for monetising mobile game players with free-to-play". It briefly summarizes a lot of topics that you're probably encountered in some form, including some Warframe-relevant things that I might not have mentioned.

If you notice any mistakes in this post, or things that I've missed, drop a comment and I'll make an edit it c:

This is a well written exposition. I have to give you that. I went into every corner of it. Effort noted. 

 

I will be brief. I prefer give economical support to DE and TENCENT (And I have my serious differences with TENCENT) than Take 2, Electronic Arts, Bethesda, Microsoft, Ubisoft or Activision. 

 

1. DE provided a game free to play. 

2. DE provided stratified game play mechanics consisting of five layers (War Frame ability and parkour mechanics, Modifiers, Weapon System, Weapon support system, Skill Tree for Tenno, Active/passive synergy system based on Arcanes/warframe abilities)

3. A game segmented by story chapters for progression. 

4. An optional economy where monetization is done on time walls, XP walls and drop chance adjustments. Player plays for the items with particular techniques or players pays for acquisitions. Either selection let the player experiment all sections of the game including endurance runs. There are no exclusions. 

5. A suggestion forum for feedback and community interactivity with certain rules and code of conduct. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rage_Inducer said:

If you can't criticize what you like, you're not a fan, you're a fanatic.
Criticizing the things we like means we can see the flaws and want it to be better.
 

True. 

 

But NOTHING is free in this world. 

 

 Who pays the artist's time? Who pays the animators? Who pays the programmers? Who pays the voice actors? Who pays the 3d modelers? Who pays item image artists for the GUI option menu? Who pays the GUI game designers? Do you think this is for free? 

 

Do you think that any game design and production is based on charity? 

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hace 11 horas, Corvid dijo:

But at the same time, those flaws must be regarded in context.

"Solving" most of these problems would likely result in a very short lifetime for the game.

 

hace 11 horas, Felsagger dijo:

True. 

 

But NOTHING is free in this world. 

 

 Who pays the artist's time? Who pays the animators? Who pays the programmers? Who pays the voice actors? Who pays the 3d modelers? Who pays item image artists for the GUI option menu? Who pays the GUI game designers? Do you think this is for free? 

 

Do you think that any game design and production is based on charity? 

If you read my whole response you will find that I only really see two issues that the game could fix, namely the bad value deals in the market (remember the frugal credit bundle) and the cost disparity between buying a frame and rushing its crafts (75p to get a potatoed excal with a slot vs 125 to rush, no slot, no potato)

My problem isn't that the option to buy the thing is there, my problem is that the deal is effectively a trap that wastes your money if you don't know better and given the good deals DE offers, I KNOW they can do better.

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I could write a bible about how wrong the OP is on a lot of this stuff as it pertains to WF. (though in other games this stuff is valid)

Some of the OP's observations seems like its from trauma of the Freemium monetization genre. He uses the term "greed" which automatically makes me think this is going to be a juvenile "why ting cost munnuh" rant.

 

DE is NOT good at monetization. I can't remember the last time I spent money to purchase some kind of advantage that I couldn't have attained simply by waiting a little bit.

Other than in very very specific scenarios where people are in a hurry to get their hands on some new exciting thing like rushing the helminth module, nobody rushes stuff. Nobody buys forma, nobody buys endo. Its not because people don't get resource poor on stuff, its because DE isn't competitive with their common commodities. You mentioned relic packs. NOBODY buys relic packs for plat. That is a noob trap. You fell for a noob trap if you bought that pack or thought about buying it. The biggest noob trap of all are the endo bundles.

DE isn't evil for monetizing these things and pricing them too high. Like I said I don't spend money for advantage I spend money to look fly. These things being priced too high doesn't hurt me, its simply a ridiculous idea to spend that much plat on a relic pack, Anyone who knows anything about relics knows that even if every single one of those relics in the pack rolled a Gold reward, they still wouldn't be worth the plat they cost.

DE is just.. not trying.

Edited by Hokibukisa
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On 2020-09-15 at 7:56 PM, Atkana said:

The fact that slots exist and must be paid for with premium currency if a player wants to gain new warframes, weapons, or companions is left for players to discover further into the game, giving them ample time to have already used up their starting currency, and leaving them to have to spend money to continue playing with new stuff (without selling items they already own).

bit of a feedback on slots right now sitting on like 6 weapons I can't use because no plat for slots, I have one weapon that is locked and unsellable because its a "login reward" why? and I had to spend money to open 2 slots in order to complete the protea mission! in the past missions have always just given this when it has been a requirement

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On 2020-09-15 at 3:07 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Let me summarize that for you:

"It's free to play."

Wow! That changes everything! No other game has ever been that before!
Oh wait they have. Oh wait their monetization were all S#&$ hence why Warframe got the tag line "Free to play done right". Does it still hold up? That's literally the purpose of the thread, COME ON DOWN!!

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On 2020-09-18 at 4:12 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Considering that the alternative is death, then yes they are forced to. The alternative to buying nanospores on the market is, playing the game for a few minutes. If you can't figure out what the difference between the two is, you may want to find someone working in the local mental health field to help you with that. 

You remember the whole "roll for kubrow colour combo" thing that got taken out? That would arguably be a case of a gambling addiction. Most of the stuff you're trying to present as evil, is straight up "I want to buy this thing" or "I wish to pay to bypass the wait because I value my time more than this plat". There's nothing inherently scummy about either. HoD didn't have any monetization and then people literally demanded that they put it in, because those people didn't want to put in the effort of playing the game. 

Oh Tenno, i KNOW that you are trying to play the victim card. Perhaps you think that playing it vicariously, on behalf of a theoretical "poor fool" that makes it something else, but it really doesn't. You are just taking something that you find unpleasant presenting it as truly evil, and doing the whole SJW thing, and pretending that individual agency is not a thing, while simultaneously trying to portray yourself as having been able to exercise such agency to not fall into a trap. 

How can you sit there and pretend that freedom of will doesn't exist, while saying that you chose not to fall for the practices? If there was no freedom of will, you would have no option. It's just a silly and easily disproven claim you're making. 

Yes, but so does any other business that sells luxury items or services. And those represent a thriving, vibrant and, some would say important part of the global economy. Nobody will take you seriously if you try to shut down your local bar, supermarket, luxury car dealership because you don't particularly like the idea of their markups. Why would this be any different? 

I suggest that you ask a lot of questions, of a lot of people, when trying to find out what is considered ethical. That is, after all how ethics works. You are absolutely allowed and entitled to have your own personal ethics, but society as a whole decides whether or not you are allowed to act in that way, and despite what you may have been taught in your university courses, you really can't dictate to a society what is and isn't ethical, especially not by trying to present something innocuous as evil. (I was willing to go along with most of what you wrote in the first post, but you will notice that even in that first reply I pointed out that you were making subjective statements that I didn't really agree with. When you tried to call stuff straight up malicious that is when I chose to voice clear disagreement and give reasons for doing so.) 

You do grasp that this is not an inherently bad thing for a business that wants to stay in business to do, right? 

 

Have you ever truly tried any of the alternatives? I mean one of the definite, actual socialist, communist or even anarchist societies in real life? As opposed to reading a propaganda piece or an idealised manifesto? I've been to a few, and while the visits were interesting, it's not something I would like to opt into. So given your stance, I'm curious to know if you have.

 

And for the record, even America isn't a purely capitalist society. 

no

Quote

Oh Tenno, i KNOW that you are trying to play the victim card. Perhaps you think that playing it vicariously, on behalf of a theoretical "poor fool" that makes it something else, but it really doesn't. You are just taking something that you find unpleasant presenting it as truly evil, and doing the whole SJW thing, and pretending that individual agency is not a thing, while simultaneously trying to portray yourself as having been able to exercise such agency to not fall into a trap. 

lol k

Quote

How can you sit there and pretend that freedom of will doesn't exist, while saying that you chose not to fall for the practices? If there was no freedom of will, you would have no option. It's just a silly and easily disproven claim you're making. 

cuz that's not how that works and the experience of consciousness is whatever the #*!% our brains come up with to cope with what is mostly unknowable to us

rather, freedom of will is disproven by the experiences of people with mental illnesses. we're subject only to our own individual nightmares as perceived by our own bodies and brains. consequently, any experience of rationality or lack thereof is logically consistent with the limitations imposed on our own corpsemeats. rather, there is no evidence to freedom of will that isn't explained more simply by determinism. ergo freedom of will is magical thinking and a sign of lack of control (the excuse of freedom of will being a coping mechanism for that lack of control).

Quote

I suggest that you ask a lot of questions, of a lot of people, when trying to find out what is considered ethical. That is, after all how ethics works. You are absolutely allowed and entitled to have your own personal ethics, but society as a whole decides whether or not you are allowed to act in that way, and despite what you may have been taught in your university courses, you really can't dictate to a society what is and isn't ethical, especially not by trying to present something innocuous as evil. (I was willing to go along with most of what you wrote in the first post, but you will notice that even in that first reply I pointed out that you were making subjective statements that I didn't really agree with. When you tried to call stuff straight up malicious that is when I chose to voice clear disagreement and give reasons for doing so.) 

You do grasp that this is not an inherently bad thing for a business that wants to stay in business to do, right? 

 

Have you ever truly tried any of the alternatives? I mean one of the definite, actual socialist, communist or even anarchist societies in real life? As opposed to reading a propaganda piece or an idealised manifesto? I've been to a few, and while the visits were interesting, it's not something I would like to opt into. So given your stance, I'm curious to know if you have.

 

And for the record, even America isn't a purely capitalist society. 

bruh

none of what you say addresses the material conditions that apply

nothing is inherently bad, especially when the only relation of morality is unto itself. herein lies more magical thinking and your divorcing of the logic i present from the reality that the process of businesses trying to maximize profits literally destroys its own environment (including itself and its consumers). the process you describe as it applies to businesses is exactly the perfect example of the tragedy of the commons.

you refuse to actually address the principal matters of fact that some of DE's monetization strategies are exploitative of human psychology and relies on whaling as a whole to survive and that is a bad thing. it is bad for all players as it drives prices up to points unattainable for most players. it is bad when the same strategies (and worse) are applied in any setting with higher stakes than entertainment.

DE monetization is ultimately the tip of the iceberg and merely replicates, on a smaller scale, what happens at large.

Quote

Have you ever truly tried any of the alternatives? I mean one of the definite, actual socialist, communist or even anarchist societies in real life? As opposed to reading a propaganda piece or an idealised manifesto? I've been to a few, and while the visits were interesting, it's not something I would like to opt into. So given your stance, I'm curious to know if you have.

 

And for the record, even America isn't a purely capitalist society. 

i dont give a S#&$ about your tourist stories, none of this is relevant. cuz, like, you know, the original point of this is "these things could be improved". sorry that "things could be improved" sounds like socialism to you (and that must be evil or something LOL)

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On 2020-09-18 at 9:45 PM, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Very common marketing, if you consider this has a negative impact on consumer big enough worth mentioning, then it's hard to imagine any business on earth that won't bother you.

literally none of what you or defenders of the current systems actually address the fact that DE gives S#&$ty #*!%ing deals

all you have is "well that's the WAY IT IS!!!"

imagine if businesses were actually held accountable, especially big ones that are game changers for the environment and society as a whole, instead of being constantly enabled by this same dumpster fire attitude

 

pretty sure none of the people talking about the sustainability of DE could see past their #*!%ing noses for foresight.

(if you DONT have an issue with how most businesses on earth operate, especially the largest ones, then the above line applies -- you cant see past your noses. you're effectively insane and a detriment to the survival of humans and life in general.)

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5 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

no

lol k

cuz that's not how that works and the experience of consciousness is whatever the #*!% our brains come up with to cope with what is mostly unknowable to us

rather, freedom of will is disproven by the experiences of people with mental illnesses. we're subject only to our own individual nightmares as perceived by our own bodies and brains. consequently, any experience of rationality or lack thereof is logically consistent with the limitations imposed on our own corpsemeats. rather, there is no evidence to freedom of will that isn't explained more simply by determinism. ergo freedom of will is magical thinking and a sign of lack of control (the excuse of freedom of will being a coping mechanism for that lack of control).

bruh

none of what you say addresses the material conditions that apply

nothing is inherently bad, especially when the only relation of morality is unto itself. herein lies more magical thinking and your divorcing of the logic i present from the reality that the process of businesses trying to maximize profits literally destroys its own environment (including itself and its consumers). the process you describe as it applies to businesses is exactly the perfect example of the tragedy of the commons.

you refuse to actually address the principal matters of fact that some of DE's monetization strategies are exploitative of human psychology and relies on whaling as a whole to survive and that is a bad thing. it is bad for all players as it drives prices up to points unattainable for most players. it is bad when the same strategies (and worse) are applied in any setting with higher stakes than entertainment.

DE monetization is ultimately the tip of the iceberg and merely replicates, on a smaller scale, what happens at large.

i dont give a S#&$ about your tourist stories, none of this is relevant. cuz, like, you know, the original point of this is "these things could be improved". sorry that "things could be improved" sounds like socialism to you (and that must be evil or something LOL)

Sorry Tenno, I don't know what sort of indoctrination you've gotten in your college's "social sciences" courses, but most of what you're saying is pure nonsense and unrealted to reality by a wide margin. People with metal illness are not a benchmark for society as a whole, and while we do seek to protect them, if they have a problem, the solution should be to make it so that THEY, and they alone, don't have access to such situations unless and until they can be helped to learn how to cope.

You refuse to admit that "personal agency" is a thing, while insisting that you have exercised it. That's not a sensible position to take. If you were able to, why should I believe that anyone else can't? Lots of things are expensive in this world, and most sane people look at them and say "yup, I'm not going to be paying for that, lol". How is warframe any different?

As for my tourist stories, they're material to what you're claiming to be the case. I have personally seen these systems in action. I asked clearly if you have any real world experience with what you're talking about, because honestly it looks like you don't. I also pointed out that I live in a society which demonstrates some socialist aspects, in the context of medicines distributed far below cost for those with chronic ailments. I could expand on that, but your "you just think socialism is evil LOL" is so silly, I recognise that you're not actually responding to anything that doesn't fit whatever made up narrative you have rattling around in your head. 🤷‍♂️

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37 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Sorry Tenno, I don't know what sort of indoctrination you've gotten in your college's "social sciences" courses, but most of what you're saying is pure nonsense and unrealted to reality by a wide margin. People with metal illness are not a benchmark for society as a whole, and while we do seek to protect them, if they have a problem, the solution should be to make it so that THEY, and they alone, don't have access to such situations unless and until they can be helped to learn how to cope.

You refuse to admit that "personal agency" is a thing, while insisting that you have exercised it. That's not a sensible position to take. If you were able to, why should I believe that anyone else can't? Lots of things are expensive in this world, and most sane people look at them and say "yup, I'm not going to be paying for that, lol". How is warframe any different?

As for my tourist stories, they're material to what you're claiming to be the case. I have personally seen these systems in action. I asked clearly if you have any real world experience with what you're talking about, because honestly it looks like you don't. I also pointed out that I live in a society which demonstrates some socialist aspects, in the context of medicines distributed far below cost for those with chronic ailments. I could expand on that, but your "you just think socialism is evil LOL" is so silly, I recognise that you're not actually responding to anything that doesn't fit whatever made up narrative you have rattling around in your head. 🤷‍♂️

you still dont get it.

>college "social sciences" courses

1. you dont need such things to arrive at similar conclusions. it's weird you bring it up. irrelevant, much?

2. sounds like you never took a college social sciences course. why are you proud of being ignorant? (but from (1) it can be concluded that, sadly, you could have taken a college social science course and learned nothing and be proud of that.)

if i had the opportunity id take every course out there.

 

when did i insist of exercising "personal agency"? we're all subject to our environments and (consequently) fleshcages. your feelings of having agency over being a "sane" person is just a symptom of the illusion. that you can't seem to even see beyond your own meat and perception is staggeringly sad, though unsurprising. rather, it was a matter of course and an easy prediction based on what you've written up to this point.

remember, this is an illusion. this includes my own experience of personal agency. and it carries no weight.

 

yes, they're not relevant in any way. i live in Canada and it's further left than the USA, but that's not saying much, when countries like Finland just up and decided to do something about homelessness with wild success. (it's not saying much when the USA is a fascist genocidal war machine. it's not saying much when Canada is just the resource extraction site extension of it.) literally i don't care. I don't care if you visited Cuba, or North Korea, or PRC. If you think these examples are relevant, then you still don't understand. i only care about real solutions, not examples of failures.

 

frankly I don't know what it would take for you to see beyond yourself. maybe it's not even possible for your neurological/biological configuration. that would be unfortunate.

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2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

you still dont get it.

>college "social sciences" courses

1. you dont need such things to arrive at similar conclusions. it's weird you bring it up. irrelevant, much?

2. sounds like you never took a college social sciences course. why are you proud of being ignorant? (but from (1) it can be concluded that, sadly, you could have taken a college social science course and learned nothing and be proud of that.)

if i had the opportunity id take every course out there.

I actually had to take several, unfortunately they were nearly universally as far from "science" as a person can get. Having a science based degree I feel I can make that comparison. As I mentioned, I also have personal experience in having spent time in those different societies and have first hand experience as opposed to just reading about it on some SJW blog. 

The last line makes me wonder if you have a valid basis for comparison. 

2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

when did i insist of exercising "personal agency"? we're all subject to our environments and (consequently) fleshcages. your feelings of having agency over being a "sane" person is just a symptom of the illusion. that you can't seem to even see beyond your own meat and perception is staggeringly sad, though unsurprising. rather, it was a matter of course and an easy prediction based on what you've written up to this point.

When you pointed out that you hadn't fallen for all of the "traps". You chose to not give them your money, so why you think other people can't do the same is a real mystery. 

2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

remember, this is an illusion. this includes my own experience of personal agency. and it carries no weight.

I can see how someone who isn't saying things that are connected to reality would happily claim that everything is an illusion, but really I'm not qualified to help you with that particular issue. I understand that in Canada that takes a minimum of a Masters in the related field. 

 

2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

yes, they're not relevant in any way. i live in Canada and it's further left than the USA, but that's not saying much, when countries like Finland just up and decided to do something about homelessness with wild success. (it's not saying much when the USA is a fascist genocidal war machine. it's not saying much when Canada is just the resource extraction site extension of it.) literally i don't care. I don't care if you visited Cuba, or North Korea, or PRC. If you think these examples are relevant, then you still don't understand. i only care about real solutions, not examples of failures.

Do try to keep up here, I don't live in America, and haven't talked about America other than to refute your insulin claims. I asked you a simple question and it looks like you're afraid to answer because you are well aware that you would then I would do something simple like point out that Nokia definitely brought in quite a bit of money, including money from people living in impoverished third world countries. Not the bastion of "give everything away for free and eschew capitalism", if you get my drift. 

But hey don't let little things like that dissuade you from whatever fantasy you have going on in your head. 

2 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

frankly I don't know what it would take for you to see beyond yourself. maybe it's not even possible for your neurological/biological configuration. that would be unfortunate.

Or maybe I do, and just disagree with you, as several others on this thread seem to have done? 

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8 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

literally none of what you or defenders of the current systems actually address the fact that DE gives S#&$ty #*!%ing deals

all you have is "well that's the WAY IT IS!!!"

imagine if businesses were actually held accountable, especially big ones that are game changers for the environment and society as a whole, instead of being constantly enabled by this same dumpster fire attitude

 

pretty sure none of the people talking about the sustainability of DE could see past their #*!%ing noses for foresight.

(if you DONT have an issue with how most businesses on earth operate, especially the largest ones, then the above line applies -- you cant see past your noses. you're effectively insane and a detriment to the survival of humans and life in general.)

The section you quoted only refers to the op's message about "time pressure deal". It's about put a timer on a deal. Whether the deal is good or not is not part of the discussion. I'm ok with it because 99% coupon ever since I can remember has an expire date on it, and it's very very VERY easy to resist. Deal good or bad is irrelevant in that discussion. 

If all they had is "well that's the WAY IT IS!!!", then that's one more defense than you. At least that's a fact based reason. If you gave an example of a game similar to Warframe, but without any dirty monetization tricks OP mentioned, and last longer, bigger than Warframe, then that's a different story. Yet you just gave an empty speech without zero facts to proof nagging at DE is the way to get there.

Of course I want businesses to be help accountable, but DE is very very very low on that list in the gaming industry. If you are talking about businesses in general, then even the gaming industry is near the bottom of the list. 

I'm not defending DE because they are pure "clean", I'm defending them because they are doing good enough. Everyone is a little greedy, that's human nature. It's unreasonable and will get you nowhere for you to ask them to absolutely not "sin". There are billions of ways for them to make million times more money, yet they chose to stay relatively consumer friendly. So why would I ask them to make even less money in order to be "perfect" in my eye, meanwhile doing nothing to stop AShole companies making billions out of children casino. Most importantly, op raised a few points that only a saint can avoid. If they cross the line in the future, I'll call them out just like I did in my response to OP, for what it worth. If you read my last sentence I made it obvious that

         1. DE is "relatively" ok, as in not remotely the worst, but also not clean. 

         2. I do have a problem with most of gaming publishers.

As for the "short sight" comment, I just wanna ask you when is the last time you take another ppl-on-the-internet's opinion about you seriously. If you are not affected by it, why would you think others will.

Lastly, find local pharmacy and buy all the chill pill they have or consult a therapist. All this angry typing, bad for your fingers.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

As for the "short sight" comment, I just wanna ask you when is the last time you take another ppl-on-the-internet's opinion about you seriously. If you are not affected by it, why would you think others will.

yes im sensitive or egotistical as a matter of neurological configuration

8 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

When you pointed out that you hadn't fallen for all of the "traps". You chose to not give them your money, so why you think other people can't do the same is a real mystery. 

Quote

remember, this is an illusion. this includes my own experience of personal agency. and it carries no weight.

I can see how someone who isn't saying things that are connected to reality would happily claim that everything is an illusion, but really I'm not qualified to help you with that particular issue. I understand that in Canada that takes a minimum of a Masters in the related field. 

when i hadn't fallen for the traps it was consequent of my neurological configuration, breadth-first depth-prioritized relation finding algorithm. I didn't "choose" any more than I chose the circumstances of my birth.

8 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I actually had to take several, unfortunately they were nearly universally as far from "science" as a person can get. Having a science based degree I feel I can make that comparison. As I mentioned, I also have personal experience in having spent time in those different societies and have first hand experience as opposed to just reading about it on some SJW blog. 

The last line makes me wonder if you have a valid basis for comparison. 

>having a science based degree

im really sad and disappointed if true because the beliefs and perspectives you've shared are very unscientific.

and yes. im also sad i had to drop out of my science based degree. i was going for BSc in Computer Science but alas, circumstances. is that what you're asking?

and yes. i too have spent time in a different society. it was in my early childhood and teens, visiting relatives back in China. but also why does this matter? why would i trust your singular opinion about what things are like in different societies when such experiences are a dime a dozen and are coupled with just as many horseS#&$ awful takes as otherwise? like, this is illogical.

but also i still don't understand where you're getting this from: "just reading about it on some SJW blog. " what countries do you think i'm advocating for? what do you think I'm advocating for? You know, in the context of Warframe, especially.

9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do try to keep up here, I don't live in America, and haven't talked about America other than to refute your insulin claims. I asked you a simple question and it looks like you're afraid to answer because you are well aware that you would then I would do something simple like point out that Nokia definitely brought in quite a bit of money, including money from people living in impoverished third world countries. Not the bastion of "give everything away for free and eschew capitalism", if you get my drift. 

But hey don't let little things like that dissuade you from whatever fantasy you have going on in your head. 

where do you live then hotshot

literally existence and consciousness is fantasy

sauce?  "give everything away for free and eschew capitalism"idc just give me source

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I can see how someone who isn't saying things that are connected to reality would happily claim that everything is an illusion, but really I'm not qualified to help you with that particular issue. I understand that in Canada that takes a minimum of a Masters in the related field. 

seriously, you don't get it, reality is limited to our perceptions and our perceptions, (do you realize right?) are the TIP OF THE #*!%ING ICEBERG!!!! js christ do i have to spell it out for you? our senses and abilities to encode and decode information are literally limited to our biological organs, and even when enhanced with technology, we can experience little more than we start with because we literally don't have the proper organs or size or capability to have more senses we already do omfg im going crazy how do you not understand

 

9 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Do try to keep up here, I don't live in America, and haven't talked about America other than to refute your insulin claims. I asked you a simple question and it looks like you're afraid to answer because you are well aware that you would then I would do something simple like point out that Nokia definitely brought in quite a bit of money, including money from people living in impoverished third world countries. Not the bastion of "give everything away for free and eschew capitalism", if you get my drift. 

But hey don't let little things like that dissuade you from whatever fantasy you have going on in your head. 

literally: what did you even refute about my claims? what even was my claim? DID I EVER EVEN MAKE ONE? QUOTE ME (oh, sorry, was it the very true joke about 400$ insulin, that may be the only medication available to some people due to allergies? because WHOOPS that's true!)

 

like, no, my dude. seriously, no. it's a good thing if Nokia does that. It's a good thing if capitalism does a good thing. it's a good thing if capitalism was materially necessary to transition to full socialist or communist state or some other utopian (or slightly better) society. but you can't have this weird teleological perspective like you do and expect to actually better things in the long term. Nokia bringing in money to an impoverished third world country is nice if it wasn't for the history of most third world countries being #*!%ed with/over by other countries. conflict minerals and value-added wealth being some major issues. like, you could be saying "oh nice, Nokia did this nice thing and gave X country however much money," but strictly speaking, that amount of however much money they were bringing could be PENNIES compared to how much country X could be getting outside of the current systems.

 

like, literally, it's a good thing for everyone if DE clamps down on stupid S#&$ty noob-trap deals and employs more ethical and sustainable monetization and management. it's a good thing for everyone if video game companies stop catering to whales. what are you even arguing against? me? i'm literally immaterial, wtf

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Lastly, find local pharmacy and buy all the chill pill they have or consult a therapist. All this angry typing, bad for your fingers.

i'll waste my time how i want thank you very much. maybe you should consult a therapist too, it's good to have some outside perspective every once in a while for anybody.

no chill pills here, only antidepressants and SSRIs

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4 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

when i hadn't fallen for the traps it was consequent of my neurological configuration, breadth-first depth-prioritized relation finding algorithm. I didn't "choose" any more than I chose the circumstances of my birth.

Okay, most of the species does it because of the fact that we're not complete morons. Your lack of choice and neurological inability to think logically is neither here nor there. 

4 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

>having a science based degree

im really sad and disappointed if true because the beliefs and perspectives you've shared are very unscientific.

and yes. im also sad i had to drop out of my science based degree. i was going for BSc in Computer Science but alas, circumstances. is that what you're asking?

and yes. i too have spent time in a different society. it was in my early childhood and teens, visiting relatives back in China. but also why does this matter? why would i trust your singular opinion about what things are like in different societies when such experiences are a dime a dozen and are coupled with just as many horseS#&$ awful takes as otherwise? like, this is illogical.

but also i still don't understand where you're getting this from: "just reading about it on some SJW blog. " what countries do you think i'm advocating for? what do you think I'm advocating for? You know, in the context of Warframe, especially.

Then you're probably going to be sad and disappointed a lot in life. You don't seem to have a firm grasp on what science is. Science involves looking at facts and then making decisions, not looking at how we feel and ignoring the facts. Perhaps you should visit China again if the opportunity arises. You might find the shopping districts interesting. There's a lot of the capitalism over there now. Lots of billionaires over there now

 

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

where do you live then hotshot

literally existence and consciousness is fantasy

sauce?  "give everything away for free and eschew capitalism"idc just give me source

.If only I had made it explicitly clear. Oh wait. I did. If only you had read the posts that you replied to. Alas. Alack. And like I said, you are entirely free to believe your existence a fantasy, and consciousness one too. This does not mean that all those things you make up in your own head are true or real for anyone else, and the collective species is entitled to believe that you are wrong. 

Source is: if a country is full of capitalists, selling their wares, then it's pretty clear to anyone with a working brain that it doesn't have any problems with capitalism per se. You, on the other hand have been ranting about how making money through capitalism by selling things that people may want but do not need. Is "bad". 

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

seriously, you don't get it, reality is limited to our perceptions and our perceptions, (do you realize right?) are the TIP OF THE #*!%ING ICEBERG!!!! js christ do i have to spell it out for you? our senses and abilities to encode and decode information are literally limited to our biological organs, and even when enhanced with technology, we can experience little more than we start with because we literally don't have the proper organs or size or capability to have more senses we already do omfg im going crazy how do you not understand

No, Tenno, I'm just choosing to point out that I'm unqualified to help with the obvious difficulties that you are having connecting what you are seeing, hearing and thinking, to what a majority of others in society do. But hey there are lots of people in Canada who do have a masters in the field that would allow them to legally help you with that. I know that right now you're going to probably have the sessions over the phone or skype, but you might still derive some benefit from consulting them on the whole mental health thing you mentioned in the last sentence. Good luck with that. Seriously. 

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

literally: what did you even refute about my claims? what even was my claim? DID I EVER EVEN MAKE ONE? QUOTE ME (oh, sorry, was it the very true joke about 400$ insulin, that may be the only medication available to some people due to allergies? because WHOOPS that's true!)

 

like, no, my dude. seriously, no. it's a good thing if Nokia does that. It's a good thing if capitalism does a good thing. it's a good thing if capitalism was materially necessary to transition to full socialist or communist state or some other utopian (or slightly better) society. but you can't have this weird teleological perspective like you do and expect to actually better things in the long term. Nokia bringing in money to an impoverished third world country is nice if it wasn't for the history of most third world countries being #*!%ed with/over by other countries. conflict minerals and value-added wealth being some major issues. like, you could be saying "oh nice, Nokia did this nice thing and gave X country however much money," but strictly speaking, that amount of however much money they were bringing could be PENNIES compared to how much country X could be getting outside of the current systems.

I don't know if you have noticed but I have quoted you in all of my responses. I'm also going to remind you that I don't live in America and neither do you, so I definitely don't need to bother with your attempts to make a point based on their broken health care industry, medical insurance, or pharmaceutical industry. 

And try to keep up, or at least read what you are replying to. Nokia is selling their products to people in impoverished third world countries, at a profit. That's very much the opposite of "bringing money" to them. Is there anything wrong with doing that? I'd say no because the things that they supply are saving people a lot of time travelling from place to place to do transactions, and for them that time saving factor is worth the expense. Of course that applies to the vast majority of the monetization in Warframe, so I figure that most people will understand what I have said. Not sure what you'll end up interpreting that to be but like I said I'm not qualified to help you with the level of issues you seem to be having. 

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

like, literally, it's a good thing for everyone if DE clamps down on stupid S#&$ty noob-trap deals and employs more ethical and sustainable monetization and management. it's a good thing for everyone if video game companies stop catering to whales. what are you even arguing against? me? i'm literally immaterial, wtf

I, like others, have pointed out that we disagree with your views on whether making money is ethical. The fact that the game is still here suggests that the model is probably sustainable. And no, Tenno. If they don't cater to the whales, then that means that they need to have everyone chip in to keep the lights on. Other F2P titles (albeit on mobile) show that that's not going to happen. So, no. 

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

why are any of you even still posting to this thread

We're replying to the things that you said. You can see where we quoted you and everything. That's generally how these things work. 

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I've most recently spent about $30 in platinum trying to circumvent a few of the obnoxious grinds of the Cambion Drift/Necralisk, particularly with the Son's brand of conservation and the Daughter's exocrine assignments.

Largely because this third variant of their Open World design was more obtuse than the prior two, but also because this is the third variant of their Open World design.  There's a lot I like about the Cambion Drift, but none of it is Mining again, none of it is tracking down piles of poop to tranquilize animals again, and none of it is shuffling types of bait to do more spearfishing again.  On the PS4, I even have to alter my controller scheme to enable correct function of the Hold R1 menus on the fishing spears and tranquilizer gun.  Because it used to work fine with the Gear Wheel but then they changed it, and what they changed it to was broken.

I basically like the Cambion Drift/Necralisk content, but loathe its entire economy and lack of novel mechanics.  It's so reiterative outside of Vault runs and Loid's bare offerings.

And I ended up paying to reduce my interaction with it.  I literally bought platinum so I wouldn't have to play Warframe.  That's weird.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Hooligantuan said:

I've most recently spent about $30 in platinum trying to circumvent a few of the obnoxious grinds of the Cambion Drift/Necralisk, particularly with the Son's brand of conservation and the Daughter's exocrine assignments.

Largely because this third variant of their Open World design was more obtuse than the prior two, but also because this is the third variant of their Open World design.  There's a lot I like about the Cambion Drift, but none of it is Mining again, none of it is tracking down piles of poop to tranquilize animals again, and none of it is shuffling types of bait to do more spearfishing again.  On the PS4, I even have to alter my controller scheme to enable correct function of the Hold R1 menus on the fishing spears and tranquilizer gun.  Because it used to work fine with the Gear Wheel but then they changed it, and what they changed it to was broken.

I basically like the Cambion Drift/Necralisk content, but loathe its entire economy and lack of novel mechanics.  It's so reiterative outside of Vault runs and Loid's bare offerings.

And I ended up paying to reduce my interaction with it.  I literally bought platinum so I wouldn't have to play Warframe.  That's weird.

You know that you don't have to do any mining or fishing at all after that quest, and the whole track-call-tranq sequence isn't actually needed to get tags right? 

Literally just running bounties and messing around with the towers gives you the fish parts and minerals you need. 

I don't know what you remapped your controller to, but I don't see how you can blame them for something you did. 

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Son requires 10 Son Coins to Gild each Predasite or Vulpaphyla companion.  I had to get 60 Coins together.  He trades Coins for Tags.

Initially Son Coins were a pretty severe requirement to rank up Entrati standing, too.  DE later reduced it, but regardless - Son and his Conservation were initially super garbage.

You can chalk up some of that other business with getting fish parts and minerals to that whole "obtuse" thing I mentioned earlier.  There's some unintuitive business to pick through amid the drudgery, which seems relevant to incentivizing microtransactions through player ignorance or disaffecting game design.

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