Recently discovered another reason why Lich System is awful

[Fallen77]

You saw the weapon you wanted, but for some weird nonsense reason, opted to not get into the invincibility granting kill animation, letting the larvling-that-had-no-logical-reason-to-stay-alive-forever-considering-you-just-mortally-wounded-him die.

Oh yeah, it's totally an issue with the system and not with the player navigating it in the most backward of ways... I recognise well this part of our community that can't compute anything if they're not heavily assisted from start to finish.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 10 heures, Tesseract7777 a dit :

Right? Sometimes those ten murmurs are nice... but sometimes the owner of that Lich doesn't want to reset their Liches threat level for a measly ten murmurs, depending on how close they are to completion, etc. 

It is always the choice of the Lich holder and no one should ever be given crap for deciding to do what they want their own Lich. 

 

I mean, I wouldn't scream at people in game or anything, I have enough stuff to deal with irl to throw tantrums during my play sessions, but I still think not downing your lich is very bad manners.

I mean, you decided to start lvl 50-100 content, and the ONLY reason for not downing a lich (that I can see, maybe I'm forgetting something) is " oh geez I don't want to deal with higher level content"... it's like the many players I've seen in RJ that would just stand around the foundry, proudly saying "nah I'm not gonna try to do anything against boarding teams nor deal with crewships nor board stations because I don't have the gear for it" (happened to me at least 5 times)... they had no trouble leeching through the entire thing tho. And it's the same for lich, those guys start content that they can't or don't want to properly deal with, go into public matches to leech mumurs from other player's work, then waste other's time when it comes to them to do their part. It's their choice yes, and the game technically allows them to act this way yes, but it's still very bad manners.

And it's not just 10 murmurs (never looked it up, I assume you know what you're talking about), it's potentially 20 if not more that are wasted from other lichs that may not have time to appear because of this wasted time, not counting the murmurs from the thralls that those additionnal lichs could have spawned.

Of course it's not a huge deal, and it can sorta balance itself out if said lich hangs out at the right place for a lot of thralls to spawn (which is not guaranteed at all), but it's always a net loss caused solely by one's selfishness of not wanting to make any effort in higher level content. And with an activity that takes sometimes several hours to complete, it adds up quite quickly.

[Tesseract7777]

4 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

I mean, I wouldn't scream at people in game or anything, I have enough stuff to deal with irl to throw tantrums during my play sessions, but I still think not downing your lich is very bad manners.

It's not though and it's none of anyone else's business, period.

It is never bad manners to not play how someone else expects or desires in a public mission. 

There are lots of good reasons people don't do it, mainly because it resets alert level. Some Tenno are relatively close to figuring out their murmurs and don't want to reset it, that is just one very good reason. They have every right to play in a public game, making their own decisions, it is not bad manners to not consider themselves beholden to some kind of "implied consent" to rank up their lich/reset it's alert just because you want them to.

Even if they just "don't want to deal with high level content", it's still not bad manners or any of your business, yes, even in a public game. There was no implied consent, there was no agreement, it's a public game and everyone has different goals. You don't like it, form a lich hunting group with people who you know are going to actually attack the lich fully and get you those murmurs, and even let it stick around long enough to spawn extra thralls for more murmurs. Don't get annoyed at people in public games for not kowtowing to your internal idea of good manners that you didn't make sure was the same to everyone in the group to begin with by using recruit chat. 

I seriously cannot say this enough times: Unless someone is deliberately trolling or doing things that might fail the mission and won't listen when told (again, basically trolling), it is never bad manners that someone didn't do things the way others wanted in a random, public mission, I'm sorry maybe their playstyle or goals for that mission were slightly different than yours. IMO bad manners is going into public missions, expecting strangers to adhere to your whims when you didn't setup a hunting group in advance. 

[White_Matter]

20 hours ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

 They do die after some time

They didn't when  I was doing liches back in the day.  And Why would they even die ? 

 

7 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

You saw the weapon you wanted, but for some weird nonsense reason, opted to not get into the invincibility granting kill animation, letting the larvling-that-had-no-logical-reason-to-stay-alive-forever-considering-you-just-mortally-wounded-him die.

For a tiny fraction of a second, I forgot how relatively realistic this game was. You are right, my bad. 

  

19 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

its been known as they get treated the same as rescue targets that if you do not stab them after they go down they will die

Not known by me apparently. I'm pretty sure back when Liches first came out, that wasn't a thing.

19 hours ago, EmberStar said:

 The larva auto-dies so they don't break things like Interception or Defense by somehow being still counted as "alive" and blocking the next wave.  

If that was a bug(in which case it seems so by your definition), maybe but maybe, it would be better to fix the bug rather than add a new and totally useless feature ?

But then I'm probably just crazy :D

 

[Fallen77]

Il y a 2 heures, Tesseract7777 a dit :

It's not though and it's none of anyone else's business, period.

It is never bad manners to not play how someone else expects or desires in a public mission. 

There are lots of good reasons people don't do it, mainly because it resets alert level. Some Tenno are relatively close to figuring out their murmurs and don't want to reset it, that is just one very good reason. They have every right to play in a public game, making their own decisions, it is not bad manners to not consider themselves beholden to some kind of "implied consent" to rank up their lich/reset it's alert just because you want them to.

Even if they just "don't want to deal with high level content", it's still not bad manners or any of your business, yes, even in a public game. There was no implied consent, there was no agreement, it's a public game and everyone has different goals. You don't like it, form a lich hunting group with people who you know are going to actually attack the lich fully and get you those murmurs, and even let it stick around long enough to spawn extra thralls for more murmurs. Don't get annoyed at people in public games for not kowtowing to your internal idea of good manners that you didn't make sure was the same to everyone in the group to begin with by using recruit chat. 

I seriously cannot say this enough times: Unless someone is deliberately trolling or doing things that might fail the mission and won't listen when told (again, basically trolling), it is never bad manners that someone didn't do things the way others wanted in a random, public mission, I'm sorry maybe their playstyle or goals for that mission were slightly different than yours. IMO bad manners is going into public missions, expecting strangers to adhere to your whims when you didn't setup a hunting group in advance. 

If they are close to figuring one requiem out, then stabing would get them even closer. You're gonna delay the stab so that you can stab easier later, when you could have figured out the symbol right away and stab again by the time you'd get it in the first scenario ? That's useless minmaxing in my book but fair enough, if you want, I didn't even think about that. But then I'll say that not a SINGLE dude ever told me that, it's ALWAYS "but high level is too haaaaard".

Now I'd be happy to conceid on this point if you could give me manier reasons, but so far, out of those "lots of good reasons", you could only give me a single one that I am yet to encounter in the wild.

And if just a quarter of the lichs you encounter are not stabbed, the loss can accumulate into half an hour to a full hour of wasted time depending on your luck, that's a lot.

You can have your own definition of bad manners, but that's exactly what it's called friend. It's not trolling, it's not illegal, but it's extremely obviously bad manners. If you wanna play your own way that is obviously opposed to the intended gameplay and that can slow down other's progress, you go solo, you don't parasite other people.

It's as much bad manners as making everyone wait at extract while you open lockers is, or running in circles doing nothing pretending to help in eidolon hunts is, or going into sorties without any modded weapon just to leech xp from others, the list could go on. Like our original point, all of those are technically allowed by the system, but would you really say it's not bad manners ?

What if someone decides he just wants to fly your railjack around to mine titanium and not drop their oplink during scarlet spear ? Hey, that's the way he wants to play right ? It's perfectly allowed by the game right ? You would be fine with it and keep the smile up no matter how much time the all squad lost because of one individual refusing to get out of his confort zone right ? No way would that be considered bad manners right ?

I'm not asking anyone to be a tryhard minmaxer of the extreme, just asking for a drop of common sense and respect for the 3 other people that are trying to work together toward a common goal. I don't think I'm asking for too much.

I'm not among the ones flaming those type of people, but I still have a strong opinion of them. You can defend them all you want, this type of behavior is definitly a huge disrespect to the rest of the squad.

 

You would really need to have a couple hundred aces in your sleave to ever make me change my mind on this.

[Loza03]

49 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

  And Why would they even die ? 

Same reason focus nodes disappear. So the Waypoint and asset isn't hanging around uselessly for the rest of the level.

[Fallen77]

il y a 51 minutes, White_Matter a dit :

 

For a tiny fraction of a second, I forgot how relatively realistic this game was. You are right, my bad. 

  

 

I'm sure you must have noticed that things tend to die when  you use your shooty shooty thing on them right ? I am not entirely sure, but I think this was a constant from the start of this game. Might be wront tho, got to double check 

[Galuf]

Considering executable larvling teleport near extraction when you are there I bet you are probably too slow to do this kind of content.

Git gud first.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

They didn't when  I was doing liches back in the day.  And Why would they even die ? 

 

For a tiny fraction of a second, I forgot how relatively realistic this game was. You are right, my bad. 

  

Not known by me apparently. I'm pretty sure back when Liches first came out, that wasn't a thing.

If that was a bug(in which case it seems so by your definition), maybe but maybe, it would be better to fix the bug rather than add a new and totally useless feature ?

But then I'm probably just crazy :D

 

Again, the auto-death is a feature.  People wanted to be able to opt out.  The auto-death is to prevent any possible griefing if the "owner" of the larva can't find it / can't reach it / refuses to kill it.  Instead of having to give the Larva special coding so they do and don't count towards Exterminate or Defense wave conditions, they just die if their "owner" doesn't interact with them quickly enough.  They are armed enemies so it's fair that they should count as valid targets for Exterminate and Defense.  Without auto-death they could end up in a state where they never quite "die," which would cause them to block Defense waves.  The time limit to interact with them is reasonably generous, and in a team it's easy enough to just ask other people not to shoot them if you want them.

The feature isn't useless, because a LOT of people have all the weapons or just have no interest in interacting with Liches.  Auto-death means that you (or your team) doesn't have to backtrack if one goes down in a side room or behind you.  (Which is entirely possible for 'frames like Saryn.)  And it means that people who want nothing to do with it aren't forced to "activate" the Larva, which I'm pretty sure was originally the only way to get rid of them.  Self termination after 30 seconds or so means the owner has a reasonable amount of time to claim them if they care, and is the simplest way of preventing a bunch of *other* weird edge case problems.  Thralls already take the other option - they don't count towards Exterminate or Defense counters.  Which, among other things, means that a Defense wave *WILL* end before you can Parazon them all.

The Parazon Finisher animation makes you temporarily invincible - as far as I know you can't be downed during the mandatory animation.  You tripped into an edge case where the game mechanics "assumed" you weren't interested and removed the Larva before you were ready.  Now you know that can happen, and how to prevent it.  There's a LOT of stuff wrong with the way Liches are set up, but Larva bleeding out isn't one of the broken bits in my opinion.

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

If they are close to figuring one requiem out, then stabing would get them even closer. You're gonna delay the stab so that you can stab easier later, when you could have figured out the symbol right away and stab again by the time you'd get it in the first scenario ? That's useless minmaxing in my book but fair enough, if you want, I didn't even think about that. But then I'll say that not a SINGLE dude ever told me that, it's ALWAYS "but high level is too haaaaard".

Now I'd be happy to conceid on this point if you could give me manier reasons, but so far, out of those "lots of good reasons", you could only give me a single one that I am yet to encounter in the wild.

 

First:  It's my Lich, and I'd rather have continuing fights with a level 2 Lich than have to fight a level 3 when I don't have to.  Second, if I don't Parazon the lich they'll stay mad and have a high chance of showing up in the next mission, and the one after that, and after that.  I'm patient enough to let them convert thralls when they do, meaning that unless they pop up in an empty room my Lich is worth between one and ten extra murmurs *every single time* they show up.  It also means that when I do find all three I get one free chance to off them completely right away because again, they're Furious and show up just about every single mission.

Finally, IT IS MY LICH.  I barely team, but I can definitively say that if some random person I've never seen before starts *demanding* that I kill it for their benefit?  Yeah, I suddenly decided I'm going to wait at least one more mission to make a Parazon attempt.  I don't exist to serve you.  Ask nicely, I'll most likely help.  Start trying to dictate how I play though and it will not go well for you.

I'm quite capable of killing a level 5 lich.  But since I don't enjoy anything about fighting them, why would I want to slog through missions of higher level enemies and deal with a Lich that has access to all their powers at max rank when I can repeatedly erase one that's a fraction as hard to kill?  In the rare cases I've chosen to face a Lich it's not for "The Challenge."  It's because the Lich promised they'd have a Kuva weapon that I don't own yet.  They're only purpose is to give me that weapon, and I'm not going to intentionally make it *harder* for them to do that.

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

You would really need to have a couple hundred aces in your sleave to ever make me change my mind on this.

I don't care about changing your mind, no offense. 

It's not your lich, it's not your business and you don't get to dictate what is or isn't good manners in a random public mission with somebody else's lich. 

Bottomline is it's not your lich, so it could be their reason is stupid or nonexistent. Doesn't matter, it's not bad manners because it's not your lich. 

[EmberStar]

3 hours ago, White_Matter said:

If that was a bug(in which case it seems so by your definition), maybe but maybe, it would be better to fix the bug rather than add a new and totally useless feature ?

But then I'm probably just crazy :D

 

To add more detail - The larva self terminate so that they *do* still count for Exterminate or Defense or Interception.  This appears to be on purpose.  Why?  Because since they do count, the mode won't end unexpectedly if the Larva is the final enemy (such as if they just got downed and are waiting for the finisher.)  *Edit*  If they didn't count then missions like Interception or Defense could throw up the "mission end" screen while a Larva is still around - potentially forcing you to do another full five waves *JUST* so you can walk over and finish them off.  Because they do count, the mission won't end until the Larva is finished off or bleeds out.  *End edit*

As near as I can tell, Thralls *do not* count for those modes.  While this means that "downed" Thralls won't block the next wave / win conditions... it also means that *live* Thralls won't either.  Since the Lich versions of missions aren't endless, I *have* had this result in the final wave of a Defense ending when there were still two Thralls running around.  I had unfortunately reached a high Lich level and the Thrall tag had popped on two Eximus units, making them even more stupidly tanky.  I had wiped out all of the other hall trash enemies just with collateral damage while trying to gnaw through their damage resistance, and the mission ended before I could finish them off.

[White_Matter]

20 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

I'm sure you must have noticed that things tend to die when  you use your shooty shooty thing on them right ? I am not entirely sure, but I think this was a constant from the start of this game. Might be wront tho, got to double check 

Just like how you actually "kill" the larvling they stay dead- oh wait they don't.  They turn into a super soldier.

Again, my bad for totally forgetting how realistic of a game this is :D

 

  

20 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Same reason focus nodes disappear. So the Waypoint and asset isn't hanging around uselessly for the rest of the level.

IF that is a concern(highly doubt it is given the waypoint system is utter garbage and needs rework anyways) they can dissapear as a waypoint if they aren't interracted within a minute or so. 

  

18 hours ago, EmberStar said:

There's a LOT of stuff wrong with the way Liches are set up, but Larva bleeding out isn't one of the broken bits in my opinion.

Agree to disagree. I do think it is a needless feature that can create an unwanted scenario just like in my case.

 

 

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

IF that is a concern(highly doubt it is given the waypoint system is utter garbage and needs rework anyways) they can dissapear as a waypoint if they aren't interracted within a minute or so. 

  

The Asset, as well. It's just good practice to not keep unused assets loaded for no reason, especially one that's still technically running AI. They give a good 30 second window for players to make their decision, then kill the unwanted larvling and dedicate the processing power to something else, probably another enemy.

[HoustonDragon]

I've been having issues being motivated to hunt Liches anymore. Knowing that I'm going to have to burn 5 Forma and relevel them repeatedly for the weapons is somewhat frustrating. There are 16 variants, meaning a total of -80- Formas needed to max them to 40.

 

If we could subdue our Lich and still retain the weapon, it would be a lot more rewarding for the effort.

[White_Matter]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The Asset, as well. It's just good practice to not keep unused assets loaded for no reason, especially one that's still technically running AI. They give a good 30 second window for players to make their decision, then kill the unwanted larvling and dedicate the processing power to something else, probably another enemy.

You are reaching. That one "asset" isn't going drain more resource than a randomly spawned enemy. This is a horde shooter. Quantity shouldn't be an issue.

[vegetosayajin]

This has been in liches for more then half a year.
It was implemented so you don't accidentally make a lich.(many many people complained about this)
Also there is now a "hold to kill" so if you stab one with the wrong weapon you have a second or two to release it to not become a lich.
Another thing they made right is so you can always know what weapon you are getting.


tbf they never explain this things in the game, just in streams, wiki etc. It has to be a better way imo so this kinds of topics don't exist

[Loza03]

27 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

You are reaching. That one "asset" isn't going drain more resource than a randomly spawned enemy. This is a horde shooter. Quantity shouldn't be an issue.

Of course it alone isn't going to make much of a difference, but that doesn't change the fact that 99.99% of the player population has abandoned that lich if they're not dead in thirty seconds and the power is better used elsewhere, even if it's 0.00000000001% of the power the game needs to run.

It's just good practice.

[Tsukinoki]

23 hours ago, White_Matter said:

They didn't when  I was doing liches back in the day.  And Why would they even die ? 

First, this change was introduced in 27.1 on February 4th:

Quote

A downed Kuva Larvling will now display an icon of the Kuva weapon that it’s birthed Kuva Lich will possess!
This allows players to decide upfront if they want to pursue that weapon by finishing the downed Kuva Larvling, or to ignore and attempt another Lich. The Kuva Larvling will be in this downed state for a max of 30 seconds before it perishes

Second, this was done for a few reasons:
A) To prevent the larva from sticking around after the player has decided that they don't want it (and seriously 30 seconds is a long time to decide "Do I want to do the invincible kill animation on this thing for the weapon its offering?  Or do I want to skip it....")
B) To prevent various bugs about it sticking around in missions that require enemy deaths
C) To stop the larva from teleporting after the player that downed it, causing them to potentially activate it accidentally.
D) Because tons of players were demanding that it die if they didn't want the weapon it was offering.

The thing is that the vast majority of players wanted the larva to die if they chose to ignore it for long enough.  They made this change 7 months ago to align with that.

 

So please tell me: If you saw the weapon you wanted why didn't you just stab the larva?  Especially considering that parazon animations have I-Frames.

[Zeclem]

On 2020-09-16 at 2:09 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

It's not though and it's none of anyone else's business, period.

It is never bad manners to not play how someone else expects or desires in a public mission. 

if your business slows down my grind by a significant portion(which it does), it is very much my business too.

Quote

There are lots of good reasons people don't do it, mainly because it resets alert level. Some Tenno are relatively close to figuring out their murmurs and don't want to reset it, that is just one very good reason. They have every right to play in a public game, making their own decisions, it is not bad manners to not consider themselves beholden to some kind of "implied consent" to rank up their lich/reset it's alert just because you want them to.

thats the one reason that makes sense, and its a very very niche situation that i have never seen in game when i actually bothered dealing with public liches. its always "level 100 is too difficult"

Quote

Even if they just "don't want to deal with high level content", it's still not bad manners or any of your business, yes, even in a public game. There was no implied consent, there was no agreement, it's a public game and everyone has different goals.

okay, if thats your argument you should be completely fine with leeches since there is no agreement or implied consent that im gonna help with the mission objective and my goal is to do absolutely nothing and leech from others work.

but as you can see, it does not work that way. because there is actually implied consent. when you go into a public mission, you are indeed expected to not be a burden on your teammates and by slowing the mission down you are indeed a burden on their lich progress and the mission as a whole.

and if people think level 100 enemies are somehow "high level", they shouldnt be doing liches in the first place because 100 is not high at all.

Quote

You don't like it, form a lich hunting group with people who you know are going to actually attack the lich fully and get you those murmurs, and even let it stick around long enough to spawn extra thralls for more murmurs. Don't get annoyed at people in public games for not kowtowing to your internal idea of good manners that you didn't make sure was the same to everyone in the group to begin with by using recruit chat. 

i dont like it yes, so i am always doing my lich missions solo. still does not change the fact that slowing the mission for others is bad manners.

Quote

I seriously cannot say this enough times: Unless someone is deliberately trolling or doing things that might fail the mission and won't listen when told (again, basically trolling), it is never bad manners that someone didn't do things the way others wanted in a random, public mission, I'm sorry maybe their playstyle or goals for that mission were slightly different than yours. IMO bad manners is going into public missions, expecting strangers to adhere to your whims when you didn't setup a hunting group in advance. 

intentionally slowing down the mission progress is very much bad manners in any game there is. 

[Kaotyke]

Players: I dont want to be careful in who I kill to accidentally make a Lich!

DE: Makes it a Parazon Finisher.

Players: The RNG of weapons is horrible and the Epherma drop rate is terrible!

DE: Makes the Larving show the weapon it will use and doubles the chance the Lich will have the Enpherma.

Players: I keep accidentally making a Lich and it keeps re-spawning in front of me!

DE: Makes Parazon hold to confirm and gives a bleedout on the Larving.

OP: The Larving died as I was cleaning the room of enemies! Even though they would not be able to do ANYTHING against me because Parazon Animation is an Invincibility one!

Matter... I cant. I just cant think you did this situation in no way but on purpose.

I'm not even sure the stuation itself happened.

[White_Matter]

2 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Of course it alone isn't going to make much of a difference, but that doesn't change the fact that 99.99% of the player population has abandoned that lich if they're not dead in thirty seconds and the power is better used elsewhere, even if it's 0.00000000001% of the power the game needs to run.

It's just good practice.

1 enemy among hundreds won't make any difference. That is not a needed power.

That's like saying 1 gram would make a difference among kilos.

  

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

 

 

So please tell me: If you saw the weapon you wanted why didn't you just stab the larva?  Especially considering that parazon animations have I-Frames.

Because my frame was about to die, there were lots of enemies, and I didn't think the larva would die/dissapeaer without me touching it.

[(PSN)NeunDrachen]

If somebody insists on ignoring their lich, i just take it upon myself to slice them to ribbons on their behalf on the off chance my lich actually spawns rather than just twiddling my thumbs waiting.

It does piss me off but thats why im glad they added that option.

On topic.

Op is still very at fault tho. 

 

@op, you know the parazon animation has i frames right. God forbid you die and have to ress

[Loza03]

Just now, White_Matter said:

1 enemy among hundreds won't make any difference. That is not a needed power.

That's like saying 1 gram would make a difference among kilos.

Again, that's not the point. By the same token, DE could just stop having all the Corpses we leave around despawning because they're all just a tiny amount each. Eventually, that's going to start causing performance issues, so the Corpses despawn after a short while.

The Larvlings are no different. Alone, yeah, they make no difference, but keeping the game tidy overall is important because a lot of little things eventually add up, and not despawning them because one player can't make a simple yes/no decision in the time it takes to run an entire a spy vault is just poor practice.

[Tesseract7777]

On 2020-09-17 at 4:25 PM, Zeclem said:

if your business slows down my grind by a significant portion(which it does), it is very much my business too.

They didn't do anything to slow down the mission. They slowed down your individual grind, which just happened as a natural consequence of them playing their Lich as they want, and need, at the time. The only bad manners is on your end for trying to dictate what others do in public. 

You have no right to even be annoyed slightly that they didn't give you THEIR murmurs. They owe you nothing. They don't owe you a faster grind, they didn't imply consent to stab their Lich because they joined a random mission, nothing... they gave no consent and they owe you nothing. Use recruit chat. 

I'm not going to have some long, line by line argument, because there is no argument to be had (it's not bad manners what someone does with their own lich unless they fail the whole mission on purpose). You can argue until you are blue in the face, there is no logic in the world that can convince me it's bad manners that someone didn't read your mind and enter the mission for the exact same reason as you, and I don't really care if I convince you or not.