Recently discovered another reason why Lich System is awful

[EmberStar]

3 hours ago, White_Matter said:

 

Agree to disagree. I do think it is a needless feature that can create an unwanted scenario just like in my case.

 

 

Now you know why it happened.  You know it's intentional, that *other* players find the feature useful even if you don't, and how to work around it.  Either go find another larva and stab them faster... or keep complaining about something that isn't going to change because bascially JUST YOU dislike it.  Your choice.

[White_Matter]

6 hours ago, EmberStar said:

Now you know why it happened.  You know it's intentional, that *other* players find the feature useful even if you don't, and how to work around it.  Either go find another larva and stab them faster... or keep complaining about something that isn't going to change because bascially JUST YOU dislike it.  Your choice.

Your assertion that it is only me who dislikes the feature is wrong on two accounts.

First, it is impossible for you to know if that is the case. Second, there is nothing about "disliking" it. I explained why it is a bad feature and it surely can be improved upon.

Your options suck. So I'll go with a third option. I'll point out a flaw in the system and present a solution and hope it gets implemented to make everyones lives better. 

 

  

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Again, that's not the point. By the same token, DE could just stop having all the Corpses we leave around despawning because they're all just a tiny amount each. Eventually, that's going to start causing performance issues, so the Corpses despawn after a short while.

The Larvlings are no different. Alone, yeah, they make no difference, but keeping the game tidy overall is important because a lot of little things eventually add up, and not despawning them because one player can't make a simple yes/no decision in the time it takes to run an entire a spy vault is just poor practice.

Only one larvling spawns per player.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[1OfTheUndying]

On 2020-09-15 at 3:26 PM, White_Matter said:

I haven't touched Liches since god knows when, but today I decided I could try to get elemental upgrades for weapons I already had(I unknowingly created some Impact weapons :/). After a few tries I killed one larvling and saw that it had Twin Stubbas(killed it with saryn so it would be an upgrade over my 30% impact stubbas regardless) and before I turned it , I decided to clear the room first of enemies and then it just died. Like yeah, if you don't touch a Larvling for a minute or less, it dies by itself, denying you the opportunity to get the roll you desperately wanted. 

And I thought this whole thing couldn't get any worse :D

first, that is not a new thing...second, I mean, you shoot the guy and he is bleeding out waiting for you to decide if you will stab him so...yeah, them dying makes sense

[Loza03]

22 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Only one larvling spawns per player.

Your argument is invalid.

 

At this point, you're just willfully ignoring reality. Larvlings are an asset, or really a bunch of assets and AI. Even if any individual asset or group of assets won't impact performance, enough loaded inevitably will. So, wherever reasonable, you make sure that unnecessary assets are unloaded to prevent a build-up, even if what you're unloading is a singular entity - as they say, every little helps. Since the Larvling is an enemy, that means they need to die first.

And, so... the Larvling dies after enough time has passed that it's reasonable to assume that the player has had enough time to reach them to see the weapon and come to a decision about whether or nor they want the lich.

 

I'm done repeating myself, so goodbye.

[White_Matter]

18 hours ago, Loza03 said:

At this point, you're just willfully ignoring reality. Larvlings are an asset, or really a bunch of assets and AI. Even if any individual asset or group of assets won't impact performance, enough loaded inevitably will. So, wherever reasonable, you make sure that unnecessary assets are unloaded to prevent a build-up, even if what you're unloading is a singular entity - as they say, every little helps. Since the Larvling is an enemy, that means they need to die first.

And, so... the Larvling dies after enough time has passed that it's reasonable to assume that the player has had enough time to reach them to see the weapon and come to a decision about whether or nor they want the lich.

 

I'm done repeating myself, so goodbye.

Why doesn't that apply to thralls then ? 

Again, your argument is invalid, on many accounts.

  

19 hours ago, 1OfTheUndying said:

he is bleeding out waiting for you to decide if you will stab him so...yeah, them dying makes sense

What about thralls ?

 

[EmberStar]

23 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Why doesn't that apply to thralls then ? 

Again, your argument is invalid, on many accounts.

  

What about thralls ?

 

I have no clue about "freeing up system resources."  The larva die because *people wanted to opt out.*  Some people did crazy amounts of grind and had one of every single weapon in literally less than a week.  Some people just *really* do not even slightly care about Lichs and want nothing to do with them.  Rather than make a complicated system, DE set it so that A) You aren't required to stab a Larva, and B) the Larva is designed to have as little impact as possible on the mission without adding a ton of special case programming to an enemy who is *literally* designed to die immediately.  They count towards population counters, which has the effect that missions won't end if a Larva is somehow the last enemy.  (Defense or Interception throwing up the wave-end screen being the example I can think of.)  And they eventually die because if the "owner" doesn't activate them then they presumably are either some distance away, or simply don't care.

IF DE revisits the system and improves Lichs to be more like what was shown in the Tennocon demo, maybe they'll rework Larva.  Until and unless that happens it seems unlikely to be a priority to "fix" something that doesn't appear to be broken for many people.  For all the complaining you've done, you've also completely skipped over the part where the Larva you "lost" would most likely have had a terrible value for the elemental bonus anyway.  (They almost always do, one spawning with even a 50% weapon is incredibly rare.)  So it's pretty likely you'd have to churn through and spawn multiple Nukor Lichs no matter what to merge their weapons together.

You don't like the system.  I get it.  Most of the topics I've started are about how much I dislike Eidolons, Orb Mothers and Plains Bounties.  But guess what?  No one cares.  No one cares that I don't like, or you don't like.  The devs will only fix something they decide to be actually broken.  (Which they get to define however they want, such as "it's only broken if it's completely unplayable even with god mode on.")  So until the devs decide Larva are broken and rework them, this is the system in the game.  Their priority right now seems to be Heart of Deimos, then Glassmaker, then hopefully any number of systems that actually *are* incomplete or only half functional (Archwing, Command Intrinsic, Archwing, Railjack mission types, Sharkwing, Thumpers being a terribly designed enemy that are almost literally impossible to kill with many frames if you try to solo them, Skywing...)

The only option you have right now that will accomplish anything productive is to either go find another larva and stab it faster.  Or to quit bothering with Lichs at all until DE changes it, and hope that the new version is closer to what you imagine it should be.

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, EmberStar said:

I have no clue about "freeing up system resources."  The larva die because *people wanted to opt out.*  Some people did crazy amounts of grind and had one of every single weapon in literally less than a week.  Some people just *really* do not even slightly care about Lichs and want nothing to do with them.  Rather than make a complicated system, DE set it so that A) You aren't required to stab a Larva, and B) the Larva is designed to have as little impact as possible on the mission without adding a ton of special case programming to an enemy who is *literally* designed to die immediately.  They count towards population counters, which has the effect that missions won't end if a Larva is somehow the last enemy.  (Defense or Interception throwing up the wave-end screen being the example I can think of.)  And they eventually die because if the "owner" doesn't activate them then they presumably are either some distance away, or simply don't care.

IF DE revisits the system and improves Lichs to be more like what was shown in the Tennocon demo, maybe they'll rework Larva.  Until and unless that happens it seems unlikely to be a priority to "fix" something that doesn't appear to be broken for many people.  For all the complaining you've done, you've also completely skipped over the part where the Larva you "lost" would most likely have had a terrible value for the elemental bonus anyway.  (They almost always do, one spawning with even a 50% weapon is incredibly rare.)  So it's pretty likely you'd have to churn through and spawn multiple Nukor Lichs no matter what to merge their weapons together.

You don't like the system.  I get it.  Most of the topics I've started are about how much I dislike Eidolons, Orb Mothers and Plains Bounties.  But guess what?  No one cares.  No one cares that I don't like, or you don't like.  The devs will only fix something they decide to be actually broken.  (Which they get to define however they want, such as "it's only broken if it's completely unplayable even with god mode on.")  So until the devs decide Larva are broken and rework them, this is the system in the game.  Their priority right now seems to be Heart of Deimos, then Glassmaker, then hopefully any number of systems that actually *are* incomplete or only half functional (Archwing, Command Intrinsic, Archwing, Railjack mission types, Sharkwing, Thumpers being a terribly designed enemy that are almost literally impossible to kill with many frames if you try to solo them, Skywing...)

The only option you have right now that will accomplish anything productive is to either go find another larva and stab it faster.  Or to quit bothering with Lichs at all until DE changes it, and hope that the new version is closer to what you imagine it should be.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that they are "broken." 

Like I said earlier, it is a flaw in the system, not even major one and seems like it wouldn't take much effor to tweak it.  The way it is right now, it can create an unwanted scenario for a newer player(who wouldn't know that they would die if left untouched for a while) or a player like me who haven't played Liches for some time. 

Trust me, I've been stabbing larvlings ever since I've created this thread, and I haven't come across twin stubbas yet. That doesn't have anything to do with me pointing out what I find to be wrong with the system. 

Nothing will be done about this, IF no one brings it into attention.  And doing nothing is hardly ever productive.

 

 

[EmberStar]

9 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Nothing will be done about this, IF no one brings it into attention.  And doing nothing is hardly ever productive.

 

Except you posted this in General and not Feedback.  Posting in General is apparently doing *less* than nothing - the devs almost never come here.  If you actually want the devs to see it, you should make a clear, concise suggestion of *exactly* what you think should be changed, and post it in the appropriate Feedback forum.  Threads in General are only good for doing exactly what happened - attracting the attention of other players, who can't fix anything.

[(PSN)poloslash18]

They literally added that feature because people were stabbing the lich larvling by mistake because some enermies teleport to your location...  People complained about that and then you are complaining about the opposite.

Look, I know DE is not perfect and I myself have done some critique on them but come the f** on.  

[White_Matter]

53 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Posting in General is apparently doing *less* than nothing

Yeah I disagree.

54 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

If you actually want the devs to see it, you should make a clear, concise suggestion of *exactly* what you think should be changed, and post it in the appropriate Feedback forum

Fair enough, I'll do that as well.

[1OfTheUndying]

On 2020-09-18 at 2:46 PM, White_Matter said:

What about thralls ?

meh, why not?

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

On 2020-09-15 at 3:41 PM, EmberStar said:

The "dies by itself" is a feature - people wanted a way to opt out of making liches (have all the weapons, don't care about weapons, don't feel like dealing with them at all, whatevers.)  The larva auto-dies so they don't break things like Interception or Defense by somehow being still counted as "alive" and blocking the next wave.  They added a similar feature for people who don't want their lich to level up - knock down their first health bar three times *without* using a Parazon finisher and they'll go away without killing the player or gaining a level.  Of course actually using that option in teams makes some people *incredibly* angry, because of course it does.

To be fair the down a lich 3 times system should be minerly tweeked. I had my lich spawn but the dudes were hanging back killing stuff and I was nearly at extraction and it spawned way back where I was near them. They downed it 3 times before I could even get back to them because it was a level 1 lich. I think the player should have and option of the 3rd down to send them away.

[(PSN)Raven-Ghosthawk]

For Wukong, don't use the Twin -- its kills do not count for some reason.

[White_Matter]

8 hours ago, 1OfTheUndying said:

meh, why not?

Why does it make sense for the larvling to die in the same situation where it doesn't for the thralls ?

 

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

yea you set yourself up for this that's about it this is all on you but now you know.

[White_Matter]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

yea you set yourself up for this that's about it this is all on you but now you know.

A new player, or an old player who haven't played for a while can find him/herself in this particular scenario where they can miss the loot they wanted.

Which can be easily preventable by implementing a better system.  That is the point of the thread. Thanks for the input tho.

[1OfTheUndying]

On 2020-09-23 at 7:46 AM, White_Matter said:

Why does it make sense for the larvling to die in the same situation where it doesn't for the thralls ?

 

larvling is much weaker?

[White_Matter]

2 hours ago, 1OfTheUndying said:

larvling is much weaker?

Which has nothing to do with mechanics of bleeding out and dying. Strength/power doesn't necessarily define ones durability, but even if we were to assume that Thralls somewhat have more supply of blood(and ignore other factors like organ damange and such), they'd still die.  It'd take longer than 30 seconds depending on the amount of blood they have compared to Larvlings.

If thralls can stay alive indefinitely while bleeding out, a " much weaker"(conjecture) being should be able to stay alive more than 30 seconds at least.  There is nothing that logically contradicts the notion of surviving a bleed out like you insinuated which is the actual logical fallacy here, as you assume that bleeding out would eventually lead to death when there is an example of that not being the case.

[(XBOX)SmokeSkele]

51 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Which has nothing to do with mechanics of bleeding out and dying. Strength/power doesn't necessarily define ones durability, but even if we were to assume that Thralls somewhat have more supply of blood(and ignore other factors like organ damange and such), they'd still die.  It'd take longer than 30 seconds depending on the amount of blood they have compared to Larvlings.

If thralls can stay alive indefinitely while bleeding out, a " much weaker"(conjecture) being should be able to stay alive more than 30 seconds at least.  There is nothing that logically contradicts the notion of surviving a bleed out like you insinuated which is the actual logical fallacy here, as you assume that bleeding out would eventually lead to death when there is an example of that not being the case.

Im not going to spout the same things the others have said to you. Yeah, the larvling dies so you dont get what you dont want, bugs n whatever, blah blah. You've heard that tons of times. Thralls dont die on a timer because DE doesn't want you to miss out on murmurs. Thats it. Get over it. Go not kill your larva until you get stubbas. I know ive done it for the things i do and dont want.

[(PSN)GingyGreen]

On 2020-09-15 at 12:26 PM, White_Matter said:

I haven't touched Liches since god knows when, but today I decided I could try to get elemental upgrades for weapons I already had(I unknowingly created some Impact weapons :/). After a few tries I killed one larvling and saw that it had Twin Stubbas(killed it with saryn so it would be an upgrade over my 30% impact stubbas regardless) and before I turned it , I decided to clear the room first of enemies and then it just died. Like yeah, if you don't touch a Larvling for a minute or less, it dies by itself, denying you the opportunity to get the roll you desperately wanted. 

And I thought this whole thing couldn't get any worse :D

................and why might I ask, didn't you stab it when it has what you wanted?

 

 

Kuva Lich isn't perfect (specifically Conversion should do a lot more, and when alive, they should be much greater a hindrance), but this example is 100% on you. This is the same thing with Capture targets, if you down them, they have a death timer too.

[SpicyDinosaur]

On 2020-09-16 at 9:09 AM, Tesseract7777 said:

It's not though and it's none of anyone else's business, period.

It is never bad manners to not play how someone else expects or desires in a public mission. 

There are lots of good reasons people don't do it, mainly because it resets alert level. Some Tenno are relatively close to figuring out their murmurs and don't want to reset it, that is just one very good reason. They have every right to play in a public game, making their own decisions, it is not bad manners to not consider themselves beholden to some kind of "implied consent" to rank up their lich/reset it's alert just because you want them to.

Even if they just "don't want to deal with high level content", it's still not bad manners or any of your business, yes, even in a public game. There was no implied consent, there was no agreement, it's a public game and everyone has different goals. You don't like it, form a lich hunting group with people who you know are going to actually attack the lich fully and get you those murmurs, and even let it stick around long enough to spawn extra thralls for more murmurs. Don't get annoyed at people in public games for not kowtowing to your internal idea of good manners that you didn't make sure was the same to everyone in the group to begin with by using recruit chat. 

I seriously cannot say this enough times: Unless someone is deliberately trolling or doing things that might fail the mission and won't listen when told (again, basically trolling), it is never bad manners that someone didn't do things the way others wanted in a random, public mission, I'm sorry maybe their playstyle or goals for that mission were slightly different than yours. IMO bad manners is going into public missions, expecting strangers to adhere to your whims when you didn't setup a hunting group in advance. 

Don't play in public if your intent is to leech. 

[DLOArceus]

It's a bad feature because "my warframe was dying"? Something you can completely circumvent by using your Operator? With the game offering you an invincibility stab for a few more seconds of control? Even caring about dying in a non-Arbitration mission? A thing added for players requested by players being bad because you do the exact opposite thing? What?

What?

[Obviousclone]

if you are in danger of dying if you are going to stab your larvling, an activity that gives you an i-frame for several seconds,

 

then you aren't ready for kuva liches

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GingyGreen said:

................and why might I ask, didn't you stab it when it has what you wanted?

It's been asked and answered. You can go back and read it.

31 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

then you aren't ready for kuva liches

Steel path son.

49 minutes ago, DLOArceus said:

It's a bad feature because "my warframe was dying"? Something you can completely circumvent by using your Operator? With the game offering you an invincibility stab for a few more seconds of control? Even caring about dying in a non-Arbitration mission? A thing added for players requested by players being bad because you do the exact opposite thing? What?

What?

Way to miss the point.

A new player or an old one who hasn't touched Liches for a while can, one way or the other, chose not to stab their larvling for 30 seconds because they have no knowledge of larvling dying on their own during that period. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)RanskyNoodles said:

Thralls dont die on a timer because DE doesn't want you to miss out on murmurs.

Maybe it is a good idea for players not to miss out on weapons too. Just a thought.

2 hours ago, (XB1)RanskyNoodles said:

Thats it. Get over it.

Certainly not, hence the thread.

[DLOArceus]

15 hours ago, White_Matter said:

e who hasn't touched Liches for a while can, one way or the other, chose not to stab their larvling for 30 seconds because they have no knowledge of larvling dying on their own during that period. 

Maybe it is a good idea for players not to miss out on weapons too. Just a thought.

 

The only way it can happen to a new player is if he completely ignored the downed larvling at all without even looking at the weapon it carries, meaning he didn't care at all. There's a reason why they changed how you create them so many times, because that's what players did. They would stab it so fast it wouldn't even have the time to kneel. It can't happen to older players period. If they do the mission a few times to get the element and weapon they are searching specifically, it means they have to redo the mission. And if they redo the mission they already know or experienced the larvling dying.

You are complaining that a safety feature that players asked for and got is bad because for no reason you didn't bother pressing a button once. You are complaining that even less ways to make mistakes that you need hours and hours to correct should be changed because for no reason you didn't bother pressing a button once. You are complaining that a non-issue, non-bug, non-glitch safety feature happening to the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the playerbase is bad because for no reason you didn't bother pressing a button once.

You are complaining that a car is harder to drive with a Guitar Hero controller or Donkey Konga bongos than a super-secure technological wheel that somehow has automatic steering, breaking, gear change and drives you to your destination without driving yourself. 

So yeah, no. Nothing should be changed. Why can't people in this forum admit they make mistakes and that's it, they move on? It's always the game's fault somehow. If i die surrounded by 10 enemies in a starchart mission with an immobile Nidus while i go make a coffee it's the game's fault since he regenerates health and shouldn't ever die. In the time you spent complaining you would have gotten 2 of those Twin Stubbas. They make the things even teleport to you multiple times to suggest you HEY THE LICH IS RIGHT HERE DUDE! but if you don't care about it you let it go, which you did. If you actually wanted the weapon you would have stabbed the damn thing. There are no buts or ifs, you didn't care about the thing, period.