Thrymm Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 I've played Frost for a long time, and the one ability that he's struggled with finding a real use for has always been Freeze. Effectively an aimed single target stun, it's capable of seeing moderate/small usage while reloading or other extreme niche situations. Outside of this, if there's a button you're not going to push on Frost, this is probably the one. Somewhere along the way, it's been noted that Snow Globe needed an off switch. Because it's persistent, it became apparent that it was quite undesirable to have no way to remove it from the landscape. As such, we can blast it with Freeze to get rid of them. This byproduct effect has become the primary function of the Freeze ability, and this was fine. Now we're faced with the subsume system, and Frost has some exceptional options to really amp him up while retaining his original kit. These range from buffs to better damage style "1" abilities. Truth is, the majority of subsumed abilities are better than Freeze. And that's when we start seeing a bit of an issue. The core synergy between Freeze and Snow Globe is a simple off switch functionality. When we subsume away the lackluster Freeze ability, we're also losing that off switch. In many cases, choosing to lose a synergy is just one of the difficult choices that needs to be made in order to take advantage of something different. In this case, due to the substantial age of the Frost rework, simple functionality was tacked on to an old ability rather than added with newer systems or functionality, and the new has finally caught up with the old--we need a small rework to Frosts core in order for him to accept newer mechanics. I think we should be looking at a "hold 3" type mechanic to shut off Snow Globe, removing that functionality from his 1(Freeze). This not only frees up the current form to be subsumed away much more readily, but also helps to illuminate how much the Freeze ability in particular isn't really pulling its own weight, making it a strong candidate for becoming something new or different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 As someone who rarely uses Frost these days I'm curious to know what makes you think that Freeze is worse than Ice Wave. Freeze can be at least a bad damage buff and - despite it being tagged on, as you pointed out - has the Snowglobe interaction. From my impression Ice Wave is absolutely outclassed by Avalanche which does everything Ice Wave does just better in a larger area and has not a single redeeming factor to my limited knowledge Again, that's just my impression. I'd love to know your take on it. What do you actually use Ice Wave for that isn't done better or similarily by Avalanche? Regarding the hold to turn off function: yes, why not. Somewhat like manually unlinking as Nidus or letting enemies out of Blood Altar as Garuda, I assume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)xBellikx Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Agreed, I had Ash ready to subsume as soon as Deimos dropped and got shuriken to replace Frosts's 1, but after playing some I realized I wasn't able to use globe as effectively as I did before, I removed shuriken from him with disappointment. It's kind of sad because I don't want to get rid of any of the other abilities since all of them have some utility, especially high range 2 (with augment) and 4, globe is the most logic choice but why would I replace globe and stay with freeze? I kind of like my Igloo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)xBellikx Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 hace 5 minutos, (PS4)Deeceem dijo: As someone who rarely uses Frost these days I'm curious to know what makes you think that Freeze is worse than Ice Wave. Freeze can be at least a bad damage buff and - despite it being tagged on, as you pointed out - has the Snowglobe interaction. From my impression Ice Wave is absolutely outclassed by Avalanche which does everything Ice Wave does just better in a larger area and has not a single redeeming factor to my limited knowledge Again, that's just my impression. I'd love to know your take on it. What do you actually use Ice Wave for that isn't done better or similarily by Avalanche? Regarding the hold to turn off function: yes, why not. Somewhat like manually unlinking as Nidus or letting enemies out of Blood Altar as Garuda, I assume? After playing a LOT of Frost there's a point where you realize that in high lvls freezing enemies in a wide area is not enough, more enemies just pass through the frozen ones and eventually get to you, that's where his 2's augment comes in, you use it to lock down choke points to give yourself room to deal with hatever else you have going on, it's also used as an utility to slow down specific enemies like disruption and capture targets, liches, most bosses etc. I wish cone angle had a higher cap though, that'd be a godsend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PS4)xBellikx: After playing a LOT of Frost there's a point where you realize that in high lvls freezing enemies in a wide area is not enough, more enemies just pass through the frozen ones and eventually get to you, that's where his 2's augment comes in, you use it to lock down choke points to give yourself room to deal with hatever else you have going on, it's also used as an utility to slow down specific enemies like disruption and capture targets, liches, most bosses etc. I wish cone angle had a higher cap though, that'd be a godsend. Huh, interesting. The more you know. Thanks. Makes me remember the thread from a while ago where people tried to find a frame to put Ice Wave on usefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrymm Posted September 17, 2020 Author Share Posted September 17, 2020 Ice wave with the augment is pretty fantastic, really. The persistent snare is extremely strong, and it can be well positioned to be a substantial area because it handles new enemies and respawns as they show up. It also works very favorably with any kind of duration or range builds--with a large range addition it's a pretty massive area of nearly non-moving enemies. Without the augment....not so much. The tricky part of Ice Wave on other frames isn't really an Ice Wave problem, rather, there are some other really good options out there. Roar, Elemental Ward, and Well of Life come to mind fairly readily because many frames with a pool of direct damage or CC abilities lack self heals, damage buffs, or a good survivability buff. Frost himself, for that matter, reacts extremely well to having any of those three. Just the same, if a person is ok with not having one of those, Ice Wave can work well. It's a good set up enemies for Hydroid tentacles or other AE attacks, or could be used for some solid CC potential for frames like Chroma(his one is almost literally an open slot for infusing something, ANYTHING else, and he doesn't have any real CC of his own) or even Oberon to build synergy with his radiation carpet(even though Oberons 1 is pretty decent on his own). I'm sure there could be other uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaZeku Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 7 hours ago, Thrymm said: I think we should be looking at a "hold 3" type mechanic to shut off Snow Globe, removing that functionality from his 1(Freeze). This not only frees up the current form to be subsumed away much more readily, but also helps to illuminate how much the Freeze ability in particular isn't really pulling its own weight, making it a strong candidate for becoming something new or different. Very big yes on this. Abilities should be actually good on their own, before any synergy is forcibly tacked on to them (maybe even requiring an Augment) only to make a different ability better. 6 hours ago, (PS4)xBellikx said: got shuriken to replace Frosts's 1, but after playing some I realized I wasn't able to use globe as effectively as I did before FWIW, you can just cast Globes somewhere out of the way to reach the 4 Globe limit and thus de-spawn the old useless / obstructing ones. Which of course costs Energy / is a bit of a pain, but still might be a somewhat viable option, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Hold Casting to cancel all Snowglobes sounds really dangerous, to me. i'd rather it be Hold Cast to merge all existing Snowglobes into a new one on your current position. or if it was Hold Cast to shatter the Snowglobe you're currently looking at, that would be fine too. and then, what to do with Freeze, heh. the Augment and ground patch aren't really enough to be worth keeping in in more recent years as our Stats get higher. as useful features as they are. 7 hours ago, (PS4)Deeceem said: As someone who rarely uses Frost these days I'm curious to know what makes you think that Freeze is worse than Ice Wave. Freeze can be at least a bad damage buff and - despite it being tagged on, as you pointed out - has the Snowglobe interaction. From my impression Ice Wave is absolutely outclassed by Avalanche which does everything Ice Wave does just better in a larger area and has not a single redeeming factor to my limited knowledge both have some merit - Freeze applying numerous Ice Status stacks in an AoE when Cast on Terrain, plus the Damage Augment. Ice Wave that it force applies Status to any Enemy it hits, Ice by default (but it can be changed into anything that combines with Ice, with other Damage Buffs - so you could have a Magnetic, Viral, or Blast Wave for what that synergy is worth). while there is also Ice Wave Impedance which people will be quick to suggest is 'useless' except it is a very special type of Slow. Avalanche doesn't work on everything to begin with, and Enemies can resist the Duration of the Freezing from it. Snowglobes' Slow can't be resisted, but, it can be nullified. Ice Wave Impedance, can't be resisted, and can't be nullified. it's applied to the landscape, and is not an Entity as far as anything in the game is concerned - so the slowing field that you gain access to, is immune to Nullifiers of any sort, and works on Enemies that are immune to Status, and works on almost any Enemy Type, including ones that are largely immune to Abilities (but not outright immune to everything). for Frost himself, having Ice Wave Impedence - when allowed by not being Nullifiers or some Boss Types - lets you stack it with Snowglobe and even the Freeze ground patch to effectively halt an Enemy in time, without having to actually immobilize it. granted this had more value when Enemies became immune to Status when completely immobilized, but even now that footnote still has some value since stacking Slows on an Enemy works far more reliably across all Enemy Types than trying to immobilize them does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 Freeze and Ice Wave feel like the only problems Frost has (aside from having a bottom 5 tier passive which is just bloody awful). I'm not a major Frost main, but I always feel like I'm weaker than I used to be for no real reason when I play him these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted September 17, 2020 Share Posted September 17, 2020 @taiiat A bit late but thank you as well for the information, time and effort you put in your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)SlyFox5679 Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 On 2020-09-17 at 4:00 AM, Aldain said: Freeze and Ice Wave feel like the only problems Frost has (aside from having a bottom 5 tier passive which is just bloody awful). I'm not a major Frost main, but I always feel like I'm weaker than I used to be for no real reason when I play him these days. only time i feel weak with frost is steel path missions because most defensive abilities need a tune up to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Mofojokers Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 As someone who has eaten and messed with most of Helminth. I will straight up just say this. FROST HAS NEEDED A REWORK FOR YEARS. Helminth doesn't fix bugger all for him and both Frost and Hydroid are in desperate need of rework updates. No situation can not be outdone by alot of other frames over Frost. Even his meme bubble doesn't mean a thing when nuking rooms is a better option. Attack damage > rest of the play style has been an issue for awhile. Anyone that disagrees to Frost needing a rework is ither new or don't have a wide testing setup for frames and Helminth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ForNoPurpose Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 i am 100% sure DE does not care about frost. i have made posts asking for reworks for him too, at least 2 times that i can remember. but DE just doesnt care about any older content in their game. thats why Venus and Earth open worlds remain incomplete and empty. its why Railjack is still barebones at best in terms of mission types and enemies. its why Archwing missions are basically non-existant and only one node per mission type exists. its why more than half the frames in this game have useless, even broken abilites (revenant still gets his DOT pillars destroyed by teammates over a year after his release). DE... doesn't care. and i am finding it harder to care myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 I'm not sure what you expect. Players have been complaining that they are forced to take specific frames into missions, that they can't use what they like, and that they have no choice. Hence you *can't* have missions which need a Frost (or any specific frame), and indeed, the game has moved in a direction where there's no particular benefit to bringing him. The only way to bring Frost in line with Warframe's current direction is to give up his distinct defensive role and just make him a generic ice themed dps/aoe frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Mofojokers Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 43 minutes ago, schilds said: I'm not sure what you expect. Players have been complaining that they are forced to take specific frames into missions, that they can't use what they like, and that they have no choice. Hence you *can't* have missions which need a Frost (or any specific frame), and indeed, the game has moved in a direction where there's no particular benefit to bringing him. The only way to bring Frost in line with Warframe's current direction is to give up his distinct defensive role and just make him a generic ice themed dps/aoe frame. He can definelity be brought into current content with some reworks while still keeping his defensive style. I remember a post about a year or so ago that was heavily upvoted. It went something like this for him (not 100%). Frost reworked focuses him on armor and coating his team in ice armor. Frost 1(reworked) has Frost spin around freezing all targets around him and forming cracks in the armor that when these weak spots are hit weakens their overall armor. Frost 2 (buffed) damage scales based on targets current armor ( less armor the more multiplier is applied). Frost 3 (buffed) While standing in his bubble team mates build up an armor buff (think of how Wisps ability works) that slowly melts off unless they enter another bubble to refreeze. 4. (Reworked) Frost consumes all current bubbles and a portion of their overall health is added to his ice armor (visual look of a huge ice figure) that enemies must break before hurting him. While in this state all his 1 & 2 have their strength increased and cost heavily lowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted September 22, 2020 Share Posted September 22, 2020 so what did you put on Frost to make him better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrymm Posted September 22, 2020 Author Share Posted September 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Monolake said: so what did you put on Frost to make him better? Better than Freeze? It depends upon what you're looking for, but lots of stuff. Empower has a strong synergy with Snow Globe and Avalanche, adding hit points to one and armor strip to the other. You can mod it all in, but empower lets you put part of it in your "1". Situational, but no less so than a single target stun/small ae slow. Energized Munitions isn't entirely bad either. Avalanche is a room stunning, armor stripping monster, and as such not getting shackled with a reload means you get to kill more enemies/apply more status before it expires. Weapon dependent, but it opens up high ammo usage weapons for this duty. Pull (mags 1) has surprisingly good synergy with Frost. It drags enemies into his Ice Wave, or into his Snow Globe(yes, really, and gives an actual use for the snow globe augment), or brings them into close proximity for a particularly effective avalanche. Elemental Ward lets you use the slot to shore up survivability or offensive potential. Keep in mind that Frost is primarily a defensive/CC frame, so his offense is very weapon based. Roar can add further group synergy and all around damage, though it could be easily argued that Freeze Force is handier than this. Well of Life, especially with augment, is a good survivability tool and equally strong CC compared to Freeze. That's just the ones I've experimented with. In truth, most abilities offer a comparable or better strategy than what can be accomplished with Freeze. Even other simple elemental effects like Smite and Shock give an opportunity to use the associated augments with better(or at least less redundant) CC opportunities. The problem lies solely in the "off switch" functionality. If you can live without the off switch--and you can, solo--you can add quite a bit to Frost and bring him some versatility. It was fine in the past to tack this on for a bit of intuitive synergy--tossing a frost bolt at your globe to shut it off works well and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with it, and the associated explosion isn't anything to sneeze at either. But we really do need a generic "shut off" of some kind to retain group friendliness and overall functionality, and it just generally feels broken to retain Freeze solely for this purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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